In the MBI IC book, it states at first the IC used the Galena & Chicago Union (C&NW) to get from Chicago to Freeport. Later, this traffic shifted to the Chicago & Iowa RR (CB&Q). In 1886 work began on it's own line. The IC depended on other lines for the first several miles west of Chicago. In 1891 the Chicago line was completed with the St Charles Air Line. The Air Line provides the connection between IC's north-south & East West lines.
I have seen other pictures where other roads would have transfer service to the GM&O's Glenn yard. Because of the angle of the crossing, interchange from the GM&O to PRR south may have been via a backup move. Not sure what connections were possible in Brighton.
artschlosser The C&A built northward from Alton and reached Joliet in 1858. It used the Rock Island tracks to its depot until it leased the Joliet and Chicago Railroad. That road was started in 1857 and reached the Ft. Wayne's tracks at 21st Street in 1858. This data is from Gene Glendinning's 'The Chicago & Alton Railroad', an excellent, well annotated book in my opinion. But the Ft Wayne had not built a depot yet so the first train's destination is unknown. The current name at that time for the C&A was St.Louis, Alton and Chicago. It got renamed often. Quotes from the book: The J&C had reached agreement with the Pittsburg(h) Fort Wayne & Chicago the previous year for a half interest in PFt.W&C's bridge over the Chicago River near Archer Road and its track from the bridge along Stewart Street to the line's terminus at Van Buren Street, similar to the arrangements the MC reached with the IC and the MS with the Rock Island. Another quote: Though the first ceremonial run may have used the west side track, it more likely switched over to the Rock Island and ended its run under the train shed of that road's depot at Van Buren and LaSalle Streets. And another: After a few months, likely because relations between the St.LA&C and Rock Island had deteriorated, the St.LA&C's passenger trains began using the IC's lake front depot near the Chicago River, reaching the track of that railroad over the St. Charles Air Line. And how do you get up to the Air Line? Using that infernal track that sort of parallels the CWI track that leads toward the Air Line but we didn't know why! When the old Union finally got built, things got simpler. Art
Art,
U Da Man !
Rich
P.S. I should get that book !
Alton Junction
pullman jct I have an article about the St Charles Airline elevation which I will check tonight to see if there is any information about the east end of the mysterious Alton trackage.
I have an article about the St Charles Airline elevation which I will check tonight to see if there is any information about the east end of the mysterious Alton trackage.
I will anxiously await anything you can find out about the east end of the Alton trackage. I wonder if the IC started to use the former C&A tracks once the IC merged with the GM&O and then abandoned the old CM&N tracks. In black and white photos that I have from 1959, there is a pretty good separation between the IC tracks and the ATSF tracks indicating that a couple of tracks may have been removed. The signal bridge is wide enough to accomodate four tracks but only two tracks run under the signal bridge just before entering the St. Charles Air Line.
pullman jct I believe the Alton mains were relocated slightly when they were elevated, along with the IC and ATSF tracks through Bridgeport. Art's link gives a date for that project, 1899. If I am correct about all this, that would indicate that the diagram dates from 1899-1916. If anyone has information to show otherwise, I'm all ears.
I believe the Alton mains were relocated slightly when they were elevated, along with the IC and ATSF tracks through Bridgeport. Art's link gives a date for that project, 1899. If I am correct about all this, that would indicate that the diagram dates from 1899-1916. If anyone has information to show otherwise, I'm all ears.
I am going with 1890 - 1910 unless someone tells me differently.
pullman jct Rich, I don't have documentation to back up my statement that the track in the top left was the original Alton main. IIRC, an old head from the C&WI told me that. Another clue to support that theory is that track is protected by a high signal and not a dwarf, which would be expected for an industrial spur.
Rich, I don't have documentation to back up my statement that the track in the top left was the original Alton main. IIRC, an old head from the C&WI told me that. Another clue to support that theory is that track is protected by a high signal and not a dwarf, which would be expected for an industrial spur.
Yeah, I agree. The signals support the fact that those tracks are probably the Alton main.
But, where do those othe C&A tracks lead to as they disappear off the left side of the diagram?
artschlosser Rich, without a date on the drawing, trying to determine when it was drawn is pretty iffy. The flourishes and writing style makes it look like an18th century product. Judging by the way extensions of the Alton and Wabash occurred, a company was formed to build the extension, and after it was functioning, it would be folded into the parent company. Therefore, I would think that the CM&N name lasted just long enough to get the extension built. Given that, I would assume the drawing was made soon after the corporation papers were drawn up and long before 1897 when it was being used by the IC. Using 'railroad chicago madison nothern' as a Google search argument, I got this url. http://www.tdf23.info/html/Railroads/ChicagoMadisonAndNorthernRailroad.htm and inside the url is this: To address these issues, the IC chartered the Chicago, Madison & Northern in July of 1886. So I would assign a date of about 1887 to 1890 for the drawing. Also, I'm pretty sure I was wrong about the line up of the tracks to Bridgeport. The Alton was laid first, close to the waterway. The Santa Fe laid tracks to the south of the C&A, and I found on the web a thing on Bridgeport that says the IC squeezed their track in between the other tracks. http://www.uic.edu/orgs/LockZero/ii.html Leave it to gossips to get it straight! Art
Rich, without a date on the drawing, trying to determine when it was drawn is pretty iffy. The flourishes and writing style makes it look like an18th century product.
Judging by the way extensions of the Alton and Wabash occurred, a company was formed to build the extension, and after it was functioning, it would be folded into the parent company. Therefore, I would think that the CM&N name lasted just long enough to get the extension built. Given that, I would assume the drawing was made soon after the corporation papers were drawn up and long before 1897 when it was being used by the IC.
Using 'railroad chicago madison nothern' as a Google search argument, I got this url.
http://www.tdf23.info/html/Railroads/ChicagoMadisonAndNorthernRailroad.htm
and inside the url is this:
To address these issues, the IC chartered the Chicago, Madison & Northern in July of 1886.
So I would assign a date of about 1887 to 1890 for the drawing.
Also, I'm pretty sure I was wrong about the line up of the tracks to Bridgeport. The Alton was laid first, close to the waterway. The Santa Fe laid tracks to the south of the C&A, and I found on the web a thing on Bridgeport that says the IC squeezed their track in between the other tracks.
http://www.uic.edu/orgs/LockZero/ii.html
Leave it to gossips to get it straight!
Art
This is all interesting stuff and I thank you for sharing it.
pullman jct Rich, I don't have documentation to back up my statement that the track in the top left was the original Alton main. IIRC, an old head from the C&WI told me that.
Rich, I don't have documentation to back up my statement that the track in the top left was the original Alton main. IIRC, an old head from the C&WI told me that.
I learned long ago that the "best evidence" rule is to trust the word of an old head. Those guys are never wrong,
Just checked the date for the PRR lift bridge. If Wiki is correct, construction began in 1913 and was completed in 1914, further narrowing the date range of the drawing.
Rich, I don't have documentation to back up my statement that the track in the top left was the original Alton main. IIRC, an old head from the C&WI told me that. Another clue to support that theory is that track is protected by a high signal and not a dwarf, which would be expected for an industrial spur. I believe the Alton mains were relocated slightly when they were elevated, along with the IC and ATSF tracks through Bridgeport. Art's link gives a date for that project, 1899. If I am correct about all this, that would indicate that the diagram dates from 1899-1916. If anyone has information to show otherwise, I'm all ears.
artschlosser richhotrain wrote: After further researching the genealogy of the predecessor railroads, the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Railway and the Chicago, Madison & Northern Railroad, which are identified by name in the title to this track diagram, I would place the date of this diagram between 1903 and 1918. Can anybody give a more precise date? Not sure how you reached those dates. The IC had the spline completed to Freeport, Illinois, and on to Dubuque and Fort Doge, Iowa, in 1870. The 1870 Guide shows no line from Freeport to either Madison or Chicago. The C&NW has a line from Rockford to Chicago, though. No mention of a CM&N in the index. The June 1897 Guide shows the IC has lines from Freeport to both Madison and Chicago, and the Iowa line extending to Omaha. No mention of a CM&N in the index of railroads nor in the "Old and New Name" section. The February 1901 Guide lists Chicago Madison & Northern as an old name with Illinois Central as the new name. Perusing the IC entries in the 1897 Guide shows a Train #1 heading from Chicago to Cairo and another Train #1 heading from Chicago to Freeport at a much different time. It would seem that the CM&N was deleted from the list of railroads but hadn't yet been included in the new/old name section. And the IC was still struggling with train numbers. My 1916 Guide shows that the Pennsylvania Railroad was still showing "Lines West of Pittsburgh" separately from those east. The various trains are each listed under separate names, such as "Pittsburgh Fort Wayne & Chicago", Erie and Pittsburgh", "Pittsburgh Cincinatti Chicago & St Louis" (The Panhandle), and "Vandalia Railroad". However, these names are not in the list of railroads nor in the old/new section. As a side note, the Panhandle initially entered Union Passenger Depot from the north and had a station at Western and Madison for local commuter trains. The Milwaukee and the Panhandle shared trackage from Western to the depot. The Panhandle was absobed by the Pennsy, and some time later started using the south entry into Union. Old names last a long time. Auto maps attest to that! Art
richhotrain wrote: After further researching the genealogy of the predecessor railroads, the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Railway and the Chicago, Madison & Northern Railroad, which are identified by name in the title to this track diagram, I would place the date of this diagram between 1903 and 1918.
Can anybody give a more precise date?
Not sure how you reached those dates. The IC had the spline completed to Freeport, Illinois, and on to Dubuque and Fort Doge, Iowa, in 1870. The 1870 Guide shows no line from Freeport to either Madison or Chicago. The C&NW has a line from Rockford to Chicago, though. No mention of a CM&N in the index.
The June 1897 Guide shows the IC has lines from Freeport to both Madison and Chicago, and the Iowa line extending to Omaha. No mention of a CM&N in the index of railroads nor in the "Old and New Name" section.
The February 1901 Guide lists Chicago Madison & Northern as an old name with Illinois Central as the new name.
Perusing the IC entries in the 1897 Guide shows a Train #1 heading from Chicago to Cairo and another Train #1 heading from Chicago to Freeport at a much different time. It would seem that the CM&N was deleted from the list of railroads but hadn't yet been included in the new/old name section. And the IC was still struggling with train numbers.
My 1916 Guide shows that the Pennsylvania Railroad was still showing "Lines West of Pittsburgh" separately from those east. The various trains are each listed under separate names, such as "Pittsburgh Fort Wayne & Chicago", Erie and Pittsburgh", "Pittsburgh Cincinatti Chicago & St Louis" (The Panhandle), and "Vandalia Railroad". However, these names are not in the list of railroads nor in the old/new section.
As a side note, the Panhandle initially entered Union Passenger Depot from the north and had a station at Western and Madison for local commuter trains. The Milwaukee and the Panhandle shared trackage from Western to the depot. The Panhandle was absobed by the Pennsy, and some time later started using the south entry into Union.
Old names last a long time. Auto maps attest to that!
Put a date on those observations.
Do you agree with pullman jct that it is somewhere between 1887 and 1916?
pullman jct Rich that track in the upper left of the diagram was the original Alton main I believe.
Rich that track in the upper left of the diagram was the original Alton main I believe.
I was looking at the tracks that appear on the left side of the diagram, just above the ATSF connection into the IC tracks, as the Alton main. The track that runs off the top of the diagram above the words "54 LEVER FRAME" seems to be running too much in a northwesterly direction to be the main line. But, I will take your word for it since I have no way of knowing for sure one way or another. If I am mistaken, where are those two tracks heading on the left side of the diagram, just above the ATSF connection into the IC tracks ?
Thanks again for your insights.
pullman jct I think the South Branch lift bridge was completed around 1916 or so. The old swing bridge is shown in the diagram so that provides a date range, approximately 1887-1916.
I think the South Branch lift bridge was completed around 1916 or so. The old swing bridge is shown in the diagram so that provides a date range, approximately 1887-1916.
Thanks for that date range. I am hoping to get closer to a definitive date but that is a good range to start with.
Wdlgln005 I'm not sure who served the Cuneo printing plant or the other industries nearby.
I'm not sure who served the Cuneo printing plant or the other industries nearby.
From a study of pullman jct diagram, it appears that the C&A RR serviced the Cuneo printing plant. That would be the two converging tracks forming a wishbone at the top left portion of the diagram.
After further researching the genealogy of the predecessor railroads, the Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne & Chicago Railway and the Chicago, Madison & Northern Railroad, which are identified by name in the title to this track diagram, I would place the date of this diagram between 1903 and 1918.
pullman jct Happy to help out Rich. Sorry but I don't have a date for the diagram. It is probably from the early 1900s but that is just a guess.
Happy to help out Rich. Sorry but I don't have a date for the diagram. It is probably from the early 1900s but that is just a guess.
I think that it probably right, especially given the roadnames of some predecessor railroads that were acquired by the big guys like IC and PRR. I was thinking turn of the century.
pullman jct The track diagrams that have been discussed in this thread are labeled correctly. The Alton/GM&O did own those tracks east of the PRR. It is confusing due to the changes in the track layouts at 21st St and 16th St. Remember that these lines were built before 16th St was elevated. Also, 21st St was changed dramatically over the years. In fact, the original Alton route came in closer to the river, on a different right of way. The Alton shifted to its current location when the tracks were elevated from 21st St to Bridgeport. Originally, the Alton tracks east of the PRR connected to the Rock Island/NYC joint line at 16th St. Here is a diagram that might help.
The track diagrams that have been discussed in this thread are labeled correctly. The Alton/GM&O did own those tracks east of the PRR. It is confusing due to the changes in the track layouts at 21st St and 16th St. Remember that these lines were built before 16th St was elevated. Also, 21st St was changed dramatically over the years. In fact, the original Alton route came in closer to the river, on a different right of way. The Alton shifted to its current location when the tracks were elevated from 21st St to Bridgeport.
Originally, the Alton tracks east of the PRR connected to the Rock Island/NYC joint line at 16th St.
Here is a diagram that might help.
Pullman jct,
This is an incredible track diagram that I had never seen before. Sure glad that you came along and read this thread.
The title of the diagram, C&WIRR-C&ARR-CM&NRR-PFW&CRy-AT&SFRR, stands for Chicago & Western Indiana, Chicago & Alton, Chicago Madison & Northern, Pittsburgh Fort Wane & Chicago, Atchison Topeka & Santa Fe.
CHICAGO, MADISON & NORTHERN RAILROAD, a line of railway 231.3 miles in length, 140 miles of which lie within Illinois, was operated by the Illinois Central Railroad Company, and was known as its "Freeport Division."
PITTSBURGH, FORT WAYNE & CHICAGO RAILWAY a line of railway 470 miles in length, but only a little over 16 miles within Illinois, was operated by the Pennsylvania Railroad Company as lessee.
Looking at the right side of the diagram, there are 13 tracks headed east. At the top (north) are 6 tracks labelled C&WIRR, the Chicago & Western Indiana, the first two tracks lead into the river side freight yard, while the remaining tracks are the 4 train mainline. The next two tracks, below the six C&WI tracks are labelled C&A (my two mystery tracks), extending from the two C&A mainline tracks. Then, the next two tracks are the CM&N tracks, operated by the IC. The three bottom tracks are AT&SF tracks from it passenger car yard. As the track diagram shows, the AT&SF passenger trains reached Dearborn Station via the IC tracks over Alton Junction, then connecting to the fifth and sixth C&WI tracks, as can be clearly seen in the diagram. While the diagram doesn't show it, those two C&A tracks ran northeast down to 16th Street, then turned east to join the St. Charles Air Line to the lakefront where the IC mainline still operates.
I am indebted to you for this track diagram. It solves a long time mystery for me, explaining the origin of the Alton tracks, east of the Alton Junction.
Many, many thanks.
P.S. Can you date the track diagram?
Wdlgln005 http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=259939 Not sure if the picture shows some boxcars along the river at this point? I'm not sure who served the Cuneo printing plant or the other industries nearby. Something I don't see is any connection from the GM&O track to Dearborn station. That must be covered by AT&SF track. There must have been some way to shuttle mail from the Post Office to Dearborn & other stationed trains. There was a C&EI shuttle of a L&N car to MILW. Alton/GM&O goes to CUSIC goes to the Air Line 16th, curving south on the Lakefront near RRD. Central Station & the Electric line goes north from there ATSF goes to Dearborn or the nearby Passenger Yard (freight stopped at Corwith) no idea for freight transfer connections.
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=259939
Not sure if the picture shows some boxcars along the river at this point? I'm not sure who served the Cuneo printing plant or the other industries nearby.
Something I don't see is any connection from the GM&O track to Dearborn station. That must be covered by AT&SF track. There must have been some way to shuttle mail from the Post Office to Dearborn & other stationed trains. There was a C&EI shuttle of a L&N car to MILW.
Alton/GM&O goes to CUSIC goes to the Air Line 16th, curving south on the Lakefront near RRD. Central Station & the Electric line goes north from there
ATSF goes to Dearborn or the nearby Passenger Yard (freight stopped at Corwith)
no idea for freight transfer connections.
Wdlgln005,
Thanks for that reply.
The reason that you don't see any connection from the GM&O track to Dearborn station is because the GM&O didn't use Dearborn Station. Mail that was carried in the passenger trains was transferred at Union Station. GM&O was later absorbed by the ICRR, so I wonder if, pre-merger, GM&O freights somehow shared ICRR facilities at the lakefront.
Does anyone have any information or photos showing GM&O freights on the PRR trackage south of 21st Street?
artschlosser And that gets me to think that the tracks in the diagram posted by Richotrain and Wanswheel have the tracks mislabeled on the EAST side of the PRR tracks. The Santa Fe tracks should lie to the north of the IC tracks, not to the south. The Alton had no property east of the junction; its freight house was not on that side either. It would be interesting to see where those tracks led to. Dollars to doughnuts, the tracks labeled Alton would wind up at Dearborn Station; and the tracks labeled IC would lead to the Air Line. But where would the bottom two tracks labeled AT&SF end up? Sure would like to know! Why the mislabeling? That's the way they were on the west side? Perhaps the draftsman wasn't railroad savvy? Who knows? Art
Thanks for that reply. I was hoping to hear from you.
Let me try to add some clarity to this situation. I am most interested in this whole area because I am contemplating a new layout that models the entire area from Dearborn Station to Alton Junction at 21st Street. I have a DVD full of black and white and color photos of the entire area from a gentleman who has taken photos of the area for over 50 years. I have an email into him for clarification as well.
Firts of all, those ATSF tracks to the northeast of the IC tracks beyond Alton Junction are tracks leading to and from the Santa Fe passenger car yard connecting to the PRR. Why? I dunno.
Second of all, I have closely retraced the Alton tracks in question on a larger superdetailed map that I have of the trackage. Those two Alton tracks come off of the PRR tracks start as a single track just south of the Alton Junction. That single track quickly becomes two tracks by means of a turnout. The divergent track feeds into the ATSF track coming into and out of the ATSF passenger car yard. The straight portion of the turnout leads to and crosses the two IC tracks just northeast of the Alton Junction by means of a single track and then runs parallel and above the two IC tracks. Just as the IC tracks curve to the east to join the St. Charles Air Line, that single Alton track joins the IC track. What is the purpose of that single Alton track only 5 city blocks long? I dunno.
I don't think it is a misprint by an incompetent or careless draftsman because two different maps by two different draftsmen (PRR and C&WI) both show and label the Alton trackage.
Having said that, the Alton track northeast of Alton Junction makes no sense to me unless the Alton Railroad had freight facilities south of Alton Junction, using PRR tracks to come and go. There is no connection from southwest to northeast over Alton Junction to carry Alton freight trains northeast. The double mainline tracks of the GM&O (Alton) southeast of the Junction clearly feed into the PRR tracks to cross the lift bridge with its passenger trains into Union Station.
The mystery remains: why is there an Alton track north and east of Alton Junction?
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/il/il0700/il0705/photos/318270pv.jpg Skyline
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pnp/habshaer/il/il0700/il0706/photos/318384pv.jpg Bridge
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=133184 PRR
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167273 PRR
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167278 GM&O
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167096 GM&O
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167121 C&WI
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167270 Wabash
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167036 Erie
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167094 Erie
http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=167035 ATSF
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1886728 PC
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1905439 IC
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1613286 Conrail
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2005696 ?
wanswheel http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/04357594bce2a519_large http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/21street.html Mike
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/04357594bce2a519_large
http://www.dhke.com/CRJ/21street.html
Mike
Mike,
Thanks for those two links. That photo is fantastic because it shows all of the track work in question. The two tracks at the far right of the photo (the first track has two passenger cars showing) are the G&MO tracks joining the PRR tracks into Union Station. You can see the two PRR tracks coming from the south at the upper left of the photo and running north to the bottom right of the photo. The next five tracks (the other passenger cars are on the first of the five tracks) curving from the south to the north east across the PRR tracks are the C&WI tracks heading toward Dearborn Station.
It is the sixth track that I am questioning. You can see it on the far left in the photo curving from the south to the northeast crossing the two IC tracks. Diverging off that "sixth track" is a seventh track. Those sixth and seventh tracks are labelled "Alton" in the track diagram that I included in my original post and it is the same track diagram shown in your second link.
That second link is to an article that I have read many times, but not recently. The answer to my question is,at least in part, embedded in that article. I had completely forgotten about it. It reads in part with my underlining for emphasis, "Entering from the west were the IC, Santa Fe and GM&O/Alton routes; the latter two fed into the IC west of the junction and crossed the C&WI and Pennsy rails using the IC tracks. GM&O/Alton freights used this route, but their passenger trains used the northwest connectors and took the Pennsy into Union Station. East of the junction, The IC and GM&O continued east to the lakefront, where Iowa passenger trains tied up at IC's Central Station.
Most of this amazing interlocking is gone now. Only four of the 20-plus diamonds still remain. Northeast of the existing diamonds, there is now a nicely landscaped park instead of the four-track C&WI main. The ATSF tracks and passenger train facilities disappeared in the 1970's, and the GM&O tracks east of the junction have been torn up as well. "
wanswheel, with your help, I am answering my own question. The GM&O (formerly Alton) ran parallel to the IC and ATSF tracks southwest of Alton Junction, then joined the IC tracks (as did the ATSF) to cross the C&WI tracks at Alton Junction. Those sixth and seventh tracks that I referred to earlier in this reply apparently were access tracks from the PRR to the GM&O for whatever the reason.
Thanks guys for your replies. If anyone else can share information on the GM&O (Alton) tracks east of Alton Junction, including those sixth and seventh tracks, I would appreciate it.
DANCBQ Rich the C&A later GM&O tracks your refering to were their means of entry onto the PRR tracks to enter Union Station and are still used by Metra Heritage corridor commuter trains better known in GM&O times as the plug from Joilet.
Rich the C&A later GM&O tracks your refering to were their means of entry onto the PRR tracks to enter Union Station and are still used by Metra Heritage corridor commuter trains better known in GM&O times as the plug from Joilet.
DANCBQ,
Thanks for your response. Those GM&O tracks that you refer to are the passenger tracks joining the PRR tracks into Union Station that I referred to in my initial post. It is the tracks east of the junction that I am questioning. See my reply to wanswheel that follows.
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