Dale,
Thanks for that info on the Railroad Model Craftsman issues.
Rich
Alton Junction
Hope this helps-
richhotrainWdlgln005A few years ago MRC ran a 2-3 issue series on the different Chicago bridges. If you call them they should have a Reader Service department for back issues. What is MRC? I would be interested in contacting them about those Chicago bridge issues. Rich
Wdlgln005A few years ago MRC ran a 2-3 issue series on the different Chicago bridges. If you call them they should have a Reader Service department for back issues.
What is MRC?
I would be interested in contacting them about those Chicago bridge issues.
RMC is Railroad Model Craftsman, the Carstens publication. They also publish Railfan & Railroad. Unfortunately, I don't have an easy way to find when they did a series of 2-3 issues on the Chicago area railroad bridges. Sorry I had my mags mixed up. There may be other photos in the back issues of Trains?
artschlosser And, 2nd - why shouldn't a post die when it's original purpose has been fulfilled? Only 'humor' or 'chatty' threads get 'life support'. Art
And, 2nd - why shouldn't a post die when it's original purpose has been fulfilled? Only 'humor' or 'chatty' threads get 'life support'.
Art
Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.
artschlosser Rich,1st - about the 4th post down on this page, Glenn/Wdlgln005 mentioned RMC; that would be the Railroad Model Craftsman, a mag that started out as Model Craftsman and changed its name. And, 2nd - why shouldn't a post die when it's original purpose has been fulfilled? Only 'humor' or 'chatty' threads get 'life support'. If you are interested in an ATSF coaling facility, that question should not be under a C&A thread. Sure, they're both about South Chicago, a huge area; but someone who is interested in or knows a lot about early Santa Fe stuff isn't likely to look under a C&A thread. The story of how the Santa Fe got to Chicago is very interesting, and strangely enough intersects at times with how the C&A got there. So, starting a new thread is the way to go. Just my two cents. Art
Rich,1st - about the 4th post down on this page, Glenn/Wdlgln005 mentioned RMC; that would be the Railroad Model Craftsman, a mag that started out as Model Craftsman and changed its name. And, 2nd - why shouldn't a post die when it's original purpose has been fulfilled? Only 'humor' or 'chatty' threads get 'life support'.
If you are interested in an ATSF coaling facility, that question should not be under a C&A thread. Sure, they're both about South Chicago, a huge area; but someone who is interested in or knows a lot about early Santa Fe stuff isn't likely to look under a C&A thread.
The story of how the Santa Fe got to Chicago is very interesting, and strangely enough intersects at times with how the C&A got there.
So, starting a new thread is the way to go.
Just my two cents.
Art,
Thanks.
The original post said MRC, not RMC, and I couldn't find anything. Thanks for clearing that up.
I am crushed, but I will follow your advice.
Hey guys, don't let this thread die.
It started out innocently enough, looking for info on the mystery C&A tracks, but developed into an interesting thread on the south Loop railroading in general.
Now I need info on the location of ATSF coaling towers in Chicago. Don't make me create a separate post!
With all of the neat photos, diagrams, and descriptive information that has been posted on this thread, I am hoping that someone can help me answer another question.
The following photo is an aerial view of the ATSF coach yard and engine servicing facility at 18th Street just south of Dearborn Station. The photo was taken in 1929.
You can see the turntable and roundhouse but nowhere do I see a coaling tower although ATSF was running steam in 1929 for sure. Apparently, the Chicago-area coaling tower was somewhere else in the Chicago area. Does anyone have any info and/or photos to share? wanswheel?
wanswheel I guess J.J. Hill's plan was thwarted by the B&O. Here's an excerpt from 1907 Railroad Gazette:Mike
I guess J.J. Hill's plan was thwarted by the B&O. Here's an excerpt from 1907 Railroad Gazette:
Mike,
That is a great story that you excerpted. That provides a tremendous amount of background concerning the ownership and operation of the bridge and trackage leading into Grand Central Station.
Thanks for all the great photos and the link to the book. There is a photo on page 87 in the book of the PRR, CTT and CJ spans across the Sanitary & Ship Canal before the moving sections were added. In the background, the old bridges over the original South Branch channel can be seen.
"Although most briefly mentioned in the report, probably the most important special event of the year was the aggressive action of the Baltimore & Ohio in connection with the foreclosure of the Chicago Terminal Transfer Railroad. The Chicago Terminal Transfer owns the Grand Central Station in Chicago, the terminal tracks used in connection with it, and a belt line around the city. The Baltimore & Ohio, with the Pere Marquette and the Chicago Great Western, uses the Grand Central Station and terminals. Interest on the bonds of the Chicago Terminal Transfer was defaulted January 1, 1905, and on April 16, 1906, a receiver was appointed. A decree of foreclosure on February 20, 1907, advertised the sale of the property on May 3, 1907. In order to protect its lease of its passenger terminal in Chicago, which seemed likely to be bought by the Hill interests and turned over to the Burlington for its exclusive use, the Baltimore & Ohio, under its rights as lessee, came forward with an offer to redeem the Chicago Terminal Transfer bonds at par, which was generally accepted by the bondholders. By this action it appears to have safeguarded its right to occupy the Chicago Terminal Transfer property, in spite of the fact that the Hill interests held control of a majority of the Terminal stock..."
B&O bought CTTRR in 1910 and it was re-organized as the B&O Chicago Terminal Railroad.
The Longest Span Bascule Bridge
In the issue of The Construction News, October 11, 1899, plans with a general description were published of the Scherzer Rolling Lift Bridge to be built near Taylor Street in Chicago by the Sanitary District for the Chicago Terminal Transfer Railroad Company. The structure has recently been completed and has the distinction of having the largest span of any bridge of its kind ever built. The bridge has a span of 275 feet center to center of bearings, and crosses the river at an angle of 36 degrees 30 minutes. The acuteness of the angle is necessitated by the property limits of the Chicago Terminal Transfer Railroad Company, which lines are used by the latter company, the Baltimore & Ohio, and the Chicago Great Western roads, entering the Grand Central Station at Harrison Street and Fifth Avenue.
During the construction by the Sanitary District of the drainage canal, it was found that the section of the Chicago River at Taylor Street was too small to permit the necessary flow of water as prescribed by law. The center pier of the Taylor Street highway bridge was eliminated and the bridge replaced by a Scherzer rolling lift bridge, which was completed in January, this year. The bridge of the Chicago Terminal Transfer Company near Taylor Street also obstructed the flow to less than the required amount. The district trustees saw but one way to obtain the required section; that of constructing a by-pass such as was built at Adams Street, at which point similar diifficulties had been encountered. But Mr. F. E. Paradis, chief engineer of the Chicago Terminal Transfer Company objected to a by-pass being built under the tracks and yards of the company, as, while a by-pass would allow the required flow of water, the same obstruction to navigation would still be prevented by the center pier of the swing bridge, and suggested that a new bridge without a center pier be built. Most of the engineers of Chicago thought it impossible to build a bridge of this type of the dimensions required, and the only encouragement received was from the Scherzer Rolling Lift Bridge Company of Chicago. The co-operation of Isham Randolph, chief engineer of the Sanitary District, was finally obtained after a very careful investigation, and contracts were entered into December 10, 1898, with the Scherzer Rolling Lift Bridge Company, Albert H. Scherzer, president, for the designs, plans, specifications and general supervision of the construction of the bridge. The Scherzer company were also to be responsible for the successful operation of the bridge when completed. The contract for the construction of the bridge was let to the Pennsylvania Steel Company, of Steelton, Pa., through their western representatives, The Railroad Supply Company, and to the work of this company is greatly due the successful manner in which the bridge was erected and the accuracy with which the leaves closed after the bridge had been competed. Thomas Phee, of Chicago, was given the sub contract for the substructure.
The bridge contains in all about 1,500 tons of steel in addition to 700 tons of counterweights. Each moving leaf contains about two million pounds, and aside from having the longest span of any movable bridge ever built, the structure is especially noticeable in that it is built for the heaviest railroad service, carrying double tracks. The bridge is designed for a load of 10,000 pounds per lineal foot of bridge, in addition to a concentrated load of 100,000 pounds at any point on the floor of the bridge, this giving a carrying capacity of more than twice that of the next longest lift bridge in the world - the Tower Bridge of London. The latter bridge has a span of 200 feet, and is designed only for highway traffic.
In the construction of the substructure in connection with the present work difficulties were encountered in that, owing to the narrow channel at the center pier of the present swing bridge, it was necessary to construct a cofferdam of a single row of Wakefield sheeting, and to excavate to the depth of 26 feet below city datum, a feat thought by most of the river men of Chicago to be impossible. The substructure of each leaf on either side of the river is built on a foundation of 600 piles 50 feet in length, and includes 3,500 yards of Portland cement concrete mixed in the proportion of one part of cement, three parts of sand and six parts of broken stone. The two piers contain 940 cubic yards of first-class masonry.
The electrical equipment for the bridge was furnished by G. P. Nichols & Bro., of Chicago, and includes for its operation two 50-horse power motors for each leaf. The power is obtained from the electric plant at the Grand Central Station, from which point underground cables are laid to the operating houses on the bridge, which houses are connected by submarine cables laid in a trench below the bottom of the river. Each leaf can be controlled from its respective operating house, and the operating devices are also arranged so that both leaves can be controlled and operated by one man from the house on the east bank of the river. For this arrangement one controller has been placed in the west house, while in the house on the east bank two have been installed. Each of the operating houses is fitted with a switchboard, an indicator showing the position of the bridge and operating devices. Each leaf is fitted with band brakes operated with solenoids, and has electric pumps for pumping out the counterweight pits. Rail lifts are not required, as the leaves move vertically. The trusses automatically interlap and form the center lock. As shown in one of the accompanying illlustrations, one-half of the bridge is built on either bank of the river, and at no time was any hindrance whatever offered to the river traffic. The two leaves were first lowered into position on Tuesday, July 23, with gratifying results to all who were interested in any way in the construction of the bridge, and especially to the Scherzer Bridge Company, who were not only held responsible for the successful operation of the structure, but who were also looking to this bridge as a demonstration of their ability to build double-track railroad bridges of this type with spans of at least 275 feet. It is said that the first operation of the present bridge was accompanied by a smoother motion and less proportionate friction, almost without exception, than were the shorter span bridges of this type that have been built. In the preset condition of the bridge about 35 horsepower are required for its operation, and when in perfect working order it is estimated that but from 20 to 25 horsepower will be necessary. The present bridge was built with the anchorage and foundations so arranged that another double track span can be built beside it as soon as the increase in the railroad traffic makes its construction necessary. The old bridge will be removed and the entire width of the river will be available for traffic, whereas at present only about one-third of the width is clear at any one point.
The bridge was erected by the Kelly-Atkinson Construction Company, sub-contractors. Theodore Buskirk, representing the Sanitary District, was inspecting engineer in charge, and Mr. Ralph Modjeska acted as consulting engineer for the railroad company.
There's a picture of both the diagonal bridge and the old swing bridge it replaced.
http://books.google.com/books?id=xc4NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA82#v=onepage&q&f=true
Mike
artschlosser Oops, didn't proof read enough. Extra word 'Station' in previous post. Mike, the book on Union Station mentions that the CB&Q used the IC station until it moved to Union, and never mentions that they ever moved out and came back. Art
Oops, didn't proof read enough. Extra word 'Station' in previous post.
Mike, the book on Union Station mentions that the CB&Q used the IC station until it moved to Union, and never mentions that they ever moved out and came back.
I agree with you. It is not the CB&Q. I am sticking with the B&O as the owner of the diagonal bridge routing its passenger trains into Grand Central Station.
artschlosser Rich, the link below shows a bridge at about a 45 degree angle Station between Taylor and 12th leading to the Grand Central Station. http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/maps/chi1900/G4104-C6A15-1905-C5.html No luck on finding a map that extends further south. That map is based on many Sanborn maps. Insurance companies used them a lot because of the detail. Each map covered a limited area. These maps can be purchased but are in some libraries, the Chicago Public Library for one. Browse the internet for more. When I lived in Poughkeepsie NY, I would train down to NYC and visit their library. They would let me look at old railroad Guides that were so old the pages would shatter when turned! If I had been in control, I wouldn't let a yokel like me anywhere close to those things! Have you tried visiting the Chicago Library? Art
Rich, the link below shows a bridge at about a 45 degree angle Station between Taylor and 12th leading to the Grand Central Station.
http://www.lib.uchicago.edu/e/su/maps/chi1900/G4104-C6A15-1905-C5.html
No luck on finding a map that extends further south. That map is based on many Sanborn maps. Insurance companies used them a lot because of the detail. Each map covered a limited area.
These maps can be purchased but are in some libraries, the Chicago Public Library for one. Browse the internet for more.
When I lived in Poughkeepsie NY, I would train down to NYC and visit their library. They would let me look at old railroad Guides that were so old the pages would shatter when turned! If I had been in control, I wouldn't let a yokel like me anywhere close to those things!
Have you tried visiting the Chicago Library?
Wow, another neat map. Thanks, Art.
I have not visited the Chicago Public Library for railroad photos. However, I want to get over to the Chicago Historical Society to browse through their photo collections. I understand that they have a lot of great stuff there.
wanswheel Rich, the diagonal bridge could have been used by CB&Q trains at Grand Central Station, if that ever happened. 1905 New York Times article about James J. Hill taking control of the Chicago Terminal Transfer Railway Company: http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9402E6DB1F3DE633A2575BC1A9669D946497D6CFMike
Rich, the diagonal bridge could have been used by CB&Q trains at Grand Central Station, if that ever happened.
1905 New York Times article about James J. Hill taking control of the Chicago Terminal Transfer Railway Company:
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9402E6DB1F3DE633A2575BC1A9669D946497D6CF
You are amazing !
I don't know how you keep coming up with these wonderful photos.
Thanks for sharing.
View from the tower of Grand Central Station.
Schlitz and Rock Island Elevators A and B
While we are on the topic of railroading in the south Loop area, I want to bring up another issue on the subject of railroad access to the south Loop passenger stations.
At the time Grand Central Station was completed, passenger trains approached the terminal by crossing the Chicago River from the southwest over a bridge between Taylor Street and Roosevelt Road, constructed in 1885. This first bridge was replaced by a taller structure in 1901 to accommodate larger boats and ships on the south branch of the river.
The photo that follows was taken at the time of the Chicago River straightening project in 1929, and it shows the Harrison, Polk, and Roosevelt Road street bridges spanning the south branch of the Chicago River. The photo also shows Taylor Street, the street north of Roosevelt Road, with the street bridge removed that had spanned the Chicago River. The railroad bridge can be seen just north of the Roosevelt Road street bridge running diagonally from southwest to northeast. My understanding is that the bridge was owned and operated by the Baltimore & Ohio railroad at that time.
When the Chicago River was straightened and widened in the 1930s, the United States Department of War insisted that the Baltimore and Ohio build a new bridge adjacent to that of the St. Charles Air Line Railroad which crossed the river between 15th and 16th Streets. The new bridge's location, about seven blocks south of its previous crossing, further complicated the circuitous route of the B&OCT tracks leading to Grand Central Station.
Both the B&O bridge, and that of the St. Charles Air Line immediately adjacent to it, were built in 1930, and both are bascule bridges. The following photo shows the bridge in its locked upright position. Incidentally, this is the photo used in my avatar.
Today, the B&OCT bridge remains unused. However, it was not dismantled and currently sits locked in the "open" position. Because they are bascule bridges, both the B&OCT and the Air Line bridges each have a counterweight of their own, and in this case, they share a common third counterweight between them. This design allowed them to operate in unison, with an operator from the B&OCT in charge of operating both bridges. The CSX, successor railroad to the B&O, owns the bridge that it cannot abandon, because the bridge is needed to continue operating a second bridge it does not own.
wanswheel Click in case of need to see a picture of South Water St. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3c10000/3c13000/3c13700/3c13719v.jpg Way off topic, Masonic Temple, once Chicago's tallest building http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3a50000/3a51000/3a51800/3a51801r.jpg http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08128v.jpg Masonic Temple on the left (north) side of Randolph St. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08135v.jpg Masonic Temple on the right (east) side of State St. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08133v.jpg Madison Street east from 5th Ave. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08134v.jpg L train. I don't know what street. http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08136v.jpg Mike
Click in case of need to see a picture of South Water St.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3c10000/3c13000/3c13700/3c13719v.jpg
Way off topic, Masonic Temple, once Chicago's tallest building
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/cph/3a50000/3a51000/3a51800/3a51801r.jpg
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08128v.jpg
Masonic Temple on the left (north) side of Randolph St.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08135v.jpg
Masonic Temple on the right (east) side of State St.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08133v.jpg
Madison Street east from 5th Ave.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08134v.jpg
L train. I don't know what street.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/det/4a00000/4a08000/4a08100/4a08136v.jpg
Thanks for those photos.
If I am not mistaken, that shot of the L train is on Wabash looking north. You can see the historic Silversmith Building on the left which is located at 10 South Wabash.
artschlosser Glenn, I, too, like the map and have been wishing there was more of it. The number 1 in the url hints of more maps, and right now I think I've broken the code. If you go to the url below and click on maps (in red) to the right, you're bound to spend a couple of hours browsing! http://chicago.urban-history.org/ Art
Very cool maps and very cool web site.
I still want to see a soutward extension of that railroad map. Any luck finding it, if indeed it ever existed?
http://chicago.urban-history.org/dist/loop/chicago1.pdf
I forget the name of a scrap dealer in Brighton IIRC at the site of Jewel today. They had a siding to take in rail cars & ship out scrap in gondolas. I can remember seing several old GM&O F units in the scrap line there. It would make a great model!
artschlosser Bob (Pullman Jct), track is not laid in concrete, so the configuration changes through the years. At the time the B&O was in control of the Alton, there was a connector track in the the northwest quadrant, the one devoid of a connector in your diagram. I have a map that shows all quadrants having connectors. Today, none have. Art
Bob (Pullman Jct), track is not laid in concrete, so the configuration changes through the years. At the time the B&O was in control of the Alton, there was a connector track in the the northwest quadrant, the one devoid of a connector in your diagram.
I have a map that shows all quadrants having connectors. Today, none have.
If there ever was a truism relating to track work on the prototype, it is changing configurations. Alton Junction is the perfect example. Just from this discussion, it is unbelievable how many times, and how often, the track work figuration has changed at Alton Junction. In fact, therein lies the reason for the confusion over the C&A tracks between 16th Street and 21st Street.
Right you are, Bob. My bad. Thought north was at the top. Should study before responding.
Very good map, though!
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