No John, I don't feel like I've been beaten up on, so don't worry. Wish we were having this conversation in the depot around the coal stove with a good pot of coffee and some doughnuts, who knows how many of the worlds problems we'd solve?
And maybe a bit of the "hard stuff" if nobody's lookin'?
zugmann Bucyrus Yes, I can understand hostility and blame toward the management, but that is somewhat beside the point I am making. All I am saying is that companies do not owe anyone a job, so they are not responsible for jobs lost if they go out of business. They have no obligation to the employees to manage the company with enough competence to make it survive. The only control the employees have over the jobs is to price themselves attractively to the employer. No, they don't owe anyone a job, but they sure can't grow a business without employees (unless we are going to legalize slavery). .
Bucyrus Yes, I can understand hostility and blame toward the management, but that is somewhat beside the point I am making. All I am saying is that companies do not owe anyone a job, so they are not responsible for jobs lost if they go out of business. They have no obligation to the employees to manage the company with enough competence to make it survive. The only control the employees have over the jobs is to price themselves attractively to the employer.
Yes, I can understand hostility and blame toward the management, but that is somewhat beside the point I am making.
All I am saying is that companies do not owe anyone a job, so they are not responsible for jobs lost if they go out of business. They have no obligation to the employees to manage the company with enough competence to make it survive.
The only control the employees have over the jobs is to price themselves attractively to the employer.
No, they don't owe anyone a job, but they sure can't grow a business without employees (unless we are going to legalize slavery). .
It's always easy to say that everyone else should work for less.
Slavery would be bad for business. You have to provide room and board for slaves. That can hurt the bottom line no matter how little provision is made. Much better to pay wages. That way when you pay a rate that will barely cover the needs of life, you can just blame the employees for not managing their money better.
I know the wages in this case weren't poverty level wages, but that's the way they are trending. You know the next time the contract would come up there would be calls for more concessions. I doubt employees can ever price themselves attractively to employers, except maybe those employees who are at or above a certain level of management.
Jeff
jeffhergert It's always easy to say that everyone else should work for less. Slavery would be bad for business. You have to provide room and board for slaves. That can hurt the bottom line no matter how little provision is made. Much better to pay wages. That way when you pay a rate that will barely cover the needs of life, you can just blame the employees for not managing their money better. I know the wages in this case weren't poverty level wages, but that's the way they are trending. You know the next time the contract would come up there would be calls for more concessions. I doubt employees can ever price themselves attractively to employers, except maybe those employees who are at or above a certain level of management. Jeff
Yep, you're correct. In American history classes at the school level, they always seemed to skip over the plight of early American paid workers (esp in the industrialized northeast) and focused solely on the slave issues (down south). Not that the latter is less important, but the former should be given its due.
Union/employee issue or not, apparently the company just wasn't making a product attractive to the american consumer. All the jokes about twinkies aside - when was the last time anyone here bought any? Around here, they were always a distant 3rd to Little Debbie and especially Tastycakes. (who has gone through issues of their own, but are always tweaking their product line to adapt, hopefully with success).
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Considering a slave working for slave wages and an employee thinking he or she is underpaid, there is an analogy in that both are dissatisfied with their compensation. But I don’t see any analogy between slavery and an employer/employee relationship.
The latter is a voluntary contract, and the former is imprisonment. Unlike an employee, a slave cannot quit. Any employee can believe they are not being paid enough. All they can do about it is quit and seek a better opportunity to sell their services. They have the freedom to quit.
What more do they deserve?
Actually, Firelock, I am not inclined to shoot from the hip and point out all the bad things the people in charge are doing. My experience is that the people in charge have usually been doing their job for many years and are very familiar with their own situation, what they can accomplish and why.
But the older I get the more I am seeing experts who really botch up the job they are responsible for. I wonder why this is happening.
As far as the Hostess Twinkie issue goes, first of all I've never eaten any or if I have it was so long ago I don't remember it. But I have to believe a big part of their problem is the changing tastes of American consumers. What I have seen is people who want a cup of coffee and a snack (and I am one of them) often go for a snack that is not easily industrially produced. I like a bagel with cream cheese or butter. I have never eaten a single mass produced industrial bagel that is any good but many bakeries make very good bagels. So the large industrial producer (which is what Hostess was) really cannot compete with smaller places even though Hostess can put a lower price on its products.
So I agree. This is a good topic for a coffee pot and pot belly stove conversation. Maybe we'll have it some day.
Re Twinkies: Did you here Hostess Brands filed for bankrupcy?
Rgds IGN
Firelock76Wish we were having this conversation in the depot around the coal stove with a good pot of coffee and some doughnuts
Since this is the Anything Else Non-Topical thread, I will jump in here.
That is the one thing my Dad didn't miss after becoming a Dispatcher. Despite being told by his supervisors and his customers that he was a very good Station Agent, he was really happy that his days of dealing with the public had come to an end. He enjoyed being an Operator back in Steam Days, working in Bunkhouse stations in the middle of nowhere, and being a Dispatcher, more than he ever did working as an Agent. Funny thing was, he never told anyone that until years after he had retired.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Some legal maneuvers sometime this weekend, we now might have a chance to see Twinkies back on the shelf.....A Judge rulling in something gives the negotiators another chance.....
Quentin
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/90782/8026598.html
It apparently lacks that luscious, creamy filling of hydrogenated vegetable fats whipped to perfection. Still, what better way to deliver twinkies.
Per Zugman's comment about slavery down South and the poorly paid industrial workers in the Northeast, and few people knowing about the latter, you've got to remember that in the years after the Civil War American history was hijacked by the Ivy Leaguers, so much so that by the 1920's a Southern writer (wish I could remember his name!) bitterly commented "The history of the United States is the history of New England!" All the greatness in this country originated in New England, the rest of the country's people were just "also rans," at least according to the Ivy Leaguers. And of course, NOTHING bad EVER happened up North that the Yankees were responsible for!
Most people are shocked when they learn at the time of the American Revolution slavery was legal in ALL thirteen colonies, not just the southern ones, a fact that was conveniently swept under the rug. As a matter of fact it was legal in ALL the British New World colonies. New England gets the credit for the first Thanksgiving in 1621, but in fact the real first Thanksgiving took place in Virginia in 1619. AND, believe it or not, the first anti-slavery legislation (banning importation) was passed in Virginia in the 1760's, but the act was squelched by the British Parliament.
On the other hand, the Virginians hijacked the South's history of the Civil War, which is why we call it "Pickett's Charge", not the "Pickett-Pettigrew-Trimble Charge."
Aw, that's enough for now, I don't want to bore anyone and I'm tired!
Firelock76 Per Zugman's comment about slavery down South and the poorly paid industrial workers in the Northeast, and few people knowing about the latter, you've got to remember that in the years after the Civil War American history was hijacked by the Ivy Leaguers, so much so that by the 1920's a Southern writer (wish I could remember his name!) bitterly commented "The history of the United States is the history of New England!" All the greatness in this country originated in New England, the rest of the country's people were just "also rans," at least according to the Ivy Leaguers. And of course, NOTHING bad EVER happened up North that the Yankees were responsible for! Most people are shocked when they learn at the time of the American Revolution slavery was legal in ALL thirteen colonies, not just the southern ones, a fact that was conveniently swept under the rug. As a matter of fact it was legal in ALL the British New World colonies. New England gets the credit for the first Thanksgiving in 1621, but in fact the real first Thanksgiving took place in Virginia in 1619. AND, believe it or not, the first anti-slavery legislation (banning importation) was passed in Virginia in the 1760's, but the act was squelched by the British Parliament. On the other hand, the Virginians hijacked the South's history of the Civil War, which is why we call it "Pickett's Charge", not the "Pickett-Pettigrew-Trimble Charge." Aw, that's enough for now, I don't want to bore anyone and I'm tired!
But it looks like we swung to the other extreme. My grandmother actually started working in a silk mill when she was 14. Her parents vouched (lied) about her age so she could support the family. Seems like we completely ignore that little part of American history.
With slavery, you usually kept your investments alive. Workers? There's a thousand more lining up... save the goodwill for the mules.
Firelock,
As a New Englander without an Ivy League education please allow me to point out there before the Civil War there was another part of the country beside the north and the south: The northwest which was the states west of the Appalachian mountains. These states produced some important people such as Lewis Cass who gave us popular sovereignty, Stephen A. Douglas who gave us the first land grant railroads, the Mobile and Ohio and the Illinois Central. Kentucky gave us Henry Clay who was pretty important in his day as well as a leading Senator and Secretary of War named Jefferson Davis. And there was one other guy from that section of the country who some people think was important. His name escapes me now. Maybe if he had gone to an Ivy League school I could remember it. What could his name have been? Someone should make a movie about him for guys like me.
John
Pardon the late arrival.
I like a couple of Twinkies every now and then. For a change of pace, if nothing else.
I haven't seen any mention of the reports that the top executives all got huge raises last year.
Apparently most, if not all, of those raises have been rolled back, but they still amounted to well over $3 million, given as the company was filing for bankruptcy.
Negotiations are reported to be underway that may allow the company to stay open.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Now John, take it easy, I wasn't slamming all New Englanders, just the snobby ones. The fact remains there were some not-nice things that happened in all parts of the country but the late 19th and early 20th Century historians who just happened to be Ivy Leaguers gave their own part of the country a pass. It's true, but it's not your fault, so relax.
Oh, and that fine gent from Illinois that someone should make a movie about? Some nasty things were said about him in his lifetime that would make your hair stand on end, and not just by Southerners. Some Boston Beacon Hill snobs had very little good to say about that "hick" from the midwest who thought he could be president. Kind of proved them wrong, didn't he? So did all those midwesterners who came to the fore during those years, like Grant, Sherman, Sheridan, and Custer, to name a few.
Re: Hostess - On some radio news program today (sorry, can't remember which one, or find it right now), one commentator said a major portion of the economic problem with Hostess was the high cost of sugar. One potential buyer is a conglomerate from Mexico (something like "Bimbo" ?!?) that has access to lower-cost sugar from there.
See also these news reports (love the 'hidden' title of the 1st one !):
http://www.npr.org/2012/11/20/165538723/sno-balls-chance-in-mediation-hostess-delays-liquidation
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/business/hostess-unions-planning-mediation-avoid-liquidation
- Paul North.
Quoting Firelock: "On the other hand, the Virginians hijacked the South's history of the Civil War, which is why we call it "Pickett's Charge", not the "Pickett-Pettigrew-Trimble Charge." "
Yes, there were brigades from several Divisions, not just from George Pickett's--and they were not all from the same corps. Incidentally, I was taught that it was the Charge of Pickett's Division--even though the men involved were from several divisions, including that of my paternal grandfather (born in 1842); General Pickett was in the I Corps (James Longstreet commanding), and my grandfather (40th Virginia Infantry) was in the III Corps (A. P. Hill commanding).
As to proper names for battles, the first major battle in Virginia was called by the victors, "Manassas," and the second battle in the same area was called by the victors, "the Second Battle of Manassas." The losers in both battles said they had fought at Bull Run.
Johnny
To be honest I don't recall any New Englander bad mouthing that President whose name evades me. I do well recall New Englanders who were abolitionists and wanted him to act earlier and more forcefully against slavery. I also recall a wing of the party led by a New Yorker, Horace Greeley, who wanted to simply let the Confederacy go its own way rather than continue the terrible war. But I don't recall New England critics. Perhaps you could enlighten me; I don't doubt but there were some.
After all, there is the tribute:
"And here we have good old Boston
The home of the bean and the cod
Where the Lowells speak only to Cabots
And the Cabots speak only to God."
Firelock76 Per Zugman's comment about slavery down South and the poorly paid industrial workers in the Northeast, and few people knowing about the latter, you've got to remember that in the years after the Civil War American history was hijacked by the Ivy Leaguers, so much so that by the 1920's a Southern writer (wish I could remember his name!) bitterly commented "The history of the United States is the history of New England!" All the greatness in this country originated in New England, the rest of the country's people were just "also rans," at least according to the Ivy Leaguers. And of course, NOTHING bad EVER happened up North that the Yankees were responsible for!
A few years ago my wife bought me an old history text book she found at a local antique store. The copyright date on my edition was around 1907, but the the first editions were older dating to the early 1890s.
It is very apparent that there was still a lot of animosity by some Northerners (at least those writing the text book) against the South, almost 30 years after the war. It's no wonder that the evils of others were highlighted while one's own evils are glossed over or ignored completely.
I must say the book is interesting in it's view points, on all of US history not just the Civil War. To say it's not PC is an understatement. Those today who are all for free speech and against burning books would probably flick their Bic (disposable cigarette lighter, for those that don't know) at this one.
Eleanor asked me to interject a new question that is more appropriate for the holiday:
What is YOUR job in preparing for thiliday? Do you cook...clean...watch the kids...supervise?
Lets hear about what you to in preparation for the Thanksgiving feast!!!!
While preparing for this Thanksgiving, I keep a sharp eye on the fiscal cliff.
I'm the grocery shopper-every week in fact. I'm also the roadie-somebody has to clean up.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I'm the "run to whatever store is opemn because we forgot something" person.....
Well, our Thanksgiving is postponed this week, it's a work day for Lady Firestorm so we're putting it off until Saturday. My preparation? Staying out of Lady Firestorm's kitchen while she's working her turkey magic! I'll be safely sequestered in the Chugger Barn until it's dinnertime.
I have two responsibilities this year. 1--show up at one daughter's house Thursday evening for dinner. 2--show up at the other daughter's house Sunday evening for dinner.
The last few years, my responsibilities were to get my wife and myself to the house of whichever daughter was serving dinner on Thursday, and to buy some sliced turkey for my wife's home consumption, as well as baking two pumpkin pies to take to the daughter's house.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPvCv0aD_hs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_a3eem_eyWM
FDR actually moved the Thanksgiving holiday in 1939. There was a big uproad:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLsgUBcoI8w
Agnes Moorhead (Endora from Bewitched) portays Eleanor Roosevelt:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BgIHcFudNs
Here's an episode of the old 50's program "Highway Patrol" starring Broderick Crawford.
Great Train Yard Acty:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F7Ib0S-COM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXvDNQEgKyE&feature=relmfu
Enjoy
Murray Here's an episode of the old 50's program "Highway Patrol" starring Broderick Crawford. Great Train Yard Acty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F7Ib0S-COM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXvDNQEgKyE&feature=relmfu Enjoy
Murray.....That brings back memories....I haven't opened your " youtube" TV shows yet, but I will later, and i remember Brodrick used '55 & '56 Buicks for patrol cars.....Black and whites.
Modelcar Murray Here's an episode of the old 50's program "Highway Patrol" starring Broderick Crawford. Great Train Yard Acty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F7Ib0S-COM&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXvDNQEgKyE&feature=relmfu Enjoy Murray.....That brings back memories....I haven't opened your " youtube" TV shows yet, but I will later, and i remember Brodrick used '55 & '56 Buicks for patrol cars.....Black and whites.
Quentin, that that episode is from 1958. Mr. Crawford is driving a 1958 Buick Century.
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