If you only knew how many reefer units JBHT owned you'd withdraw that comment. What you fail to realize is, JB Hunt, has many dedicated refrigerated accounts. You really have no clue. I'm not trying to be snarky but, please research the business before you attempt to decide it's fate.
I think I'll spare you any specifics out of spite. Let's set our calendars to revisit this in six months, then a year and see what you think. My money says we're going to create yet another huge success and you'll eat your words.
Just watch. 2010 won't be anything huge in this area. Come 2011, I really hope you remember this thread and your words.
But...I'll give you this. You're correct in your assessment about drivers and the difference in hauling freight to reefer. Above posters are also correct about it coming down to corporate training, recruiting and more.
But we have all that in place and have had for years. We'll only need small tweaks here and there.
regards
from: Samfp1943:
"... My big concern is dovetailing refrigerated product handling into the skill set of driver's w ho are primarily used to the dry freight side of how things are done...
...I know training within the driver pool will be a Corporate challenge, truck drivers sometimes can be pretty resistant to change their ideas of how things shoud be done..."
greyhounds" edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it. You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work. I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.) I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer. We're just going to have to see how it plays out.
edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it.
Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it.
You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work.
I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.)
I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer.
We're just going to have to see how it plays out.
Greyhounds: I would not to pretend to speak to the appropriate equipment used in the Rail transport side of this refrigerated type of service. I see both refrigerated trailers and reefer containers on the BNSF out here, I never see the net results of the product arrival after the rail transport segment these days.
My experience was dealing with the drivers at conventional trucking operations, and within the recuitment and safety aspects of the same.
Ed Benton is right in all he states, I would suggest that the driver aspect will boil down to training, and more training in the aspects of handling refrigerated products. Each one has its own requirements for handling to achieve good product quality at destination.
The next major hurdle to overcome is the driver personel issues. Recruiting of drivers is an area of personel management that has its own set of challenges , a good recruiter must be smewhat of a Svengali and have the sociological understanding of Dr. Ruth with a combination of understanding and patience of a Saint.
First of all, most driver's are always willing to entertain a potential job change to a new carrier, particularly if that new carrier has a BIG Chrome-Heavy/big sleeper compartment, tractor with an engine approaching the size of a locomotive diesel. That is what the new trucker wants( one with not a lot of road experience). The more seasoned driver is looking for fairly new tractor, preferably an assigned unit, and BENEFITS. They have realized that 'chrome and big motors' can potentially cost THEM wages in the long run. The new guy is still locked up in braggin and ego. Not to mention the ultimate drivers come back to a recruiter " If I had wanted to drive for......., I'd already be working for them."
Companies like Hunt offer a driver, plenty of work, wage stability, and a reasonable benefit package, but there are trade-offs for the driver.( like no assigned units and forced dispatches, etc). The one advantage that a company like Hunt has is the ability to offer a driver training and a knowledge base of information on how to handle different kinds of freight. The las is key to refrigerated ops as will be potential, enroute monitoring of loads by remote sensing (read Qualcom, or equivalent) and instaneous communications with the driver.
The training curve can be steep and expensive, at first. As Ed said, pallets of strawberry's can be pulped in a short trip, as well as other softer fruits and veggies.
One thing for sure, I't will be an interesting ride for those involved, and those of us on the outside, I wish them LUCK.
Buckle your seatbelt, Office Jockey! You and your co-workers are in for a real ride.
One thing for sure
greyhounds edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it. You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work. I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.) I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer. We're just going to have to see how it plays out.
Greyhounds, I agree with you here about the RailMate concept and how that should be the preferred vehicle. I have to admit that I'm very disappointed that someone (so far, anyway) hasn't had the gumption to give this technology a chance to have its mettle tested. Also, don't know the story behind it but supposedly the person who was "pushing" RailMate was canned from what I heard so that may be another step in the wrong direction.
Hope JB Hunt can make this work.
I apologise for not understanding that you were referring to AG products exclusively. From what I have heard and read about in the past, there were plenty of stupid regulations in the past, and again, I have worked for two different private carriers, not in the common carrier side of the industry, so I haven't had to deal with these issues personally the way the common carriers have/had to.
Edbenton, I do understand what you are talking about in the refrigerated segment of the industry. The first 14 years of my driving career were with a food-service company that supplied Arby's, Arctic Circle, Burger King, Burgerville USA, and Wendy's. If you think straight trailer loads are a challenge, think of the headaches of a three compartment/temperature system, with as many as 14 deliveries on a single load. I DON'T Miss that at all.
Since late Sept, 2002, I have been driving for a manufacturing company, that our plant in Portland produces Foam products, and distributes other mainly mattress and furniture components, from our other plants around the country to customers in our delivery region. I don't think that I have ever been over 55,000 gross, on 5 axles, weekends and holidays OFF, hourly pay w/OT and meals and motels paid on overnight runs, I plan sticking around until retirement.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
OfficeJockey JB Hunt will make this work. We're doing this for a major retailer for now and will be expanding from there. (The common work at the water cooler) We all know it's a fit for the industry. You know that, if any company can, JBHT can pull it off. I'm pumped. The containers are slick too. Inside, you sacrifice only two pallets to make up for the Reefer unit. With them being stackable, it's going to be a thing of beauty. Good read here fellas. You're on the ball for sure.
JB Hunt will make this work. We're doing this for a major retailer for now and will be expanding from there. (The common work at the water cooler)
We all know it's a fit for the industry. You know that, if any company can, JBHT can pull it off. I'm pumped.
The containers are slick too. Inside, you sacrifice only two pallets to make up for the Reefer unit. With them being stackable, it's going to be a thing of beauty.
Good read here fellas. You're on the ball for sure.
Before we throw you into the 'briar patch' -
There are a few of us whose work experience was or currently is in the trucking industry, so it's nice to have someone else of similar interest--All of use are interested in the Railroads, and a few of us, their interation with trucking as a side interest.
It is nice to see JB's operations branching out, into a new direction. The new refrigerated containers look very nice. I hope that it works out, it is an untapped area for a major trucking operator. From the one photo of the rear of the unit with a door open; I notices only what appeared to be a three or four foot section of Z-track load security system on the rear sidewall. I would have thougth its use would have been a liittle more generous in the unit. I'm not a real fan of the compression bar security system in trailers to really secure loads ( personal preference)
My big concern is dovetailing refrigerated product handling into the skill set of driver's w ho are primarily used to the dry freight side of how things are done. Most dry freight operators ( on the irregular route side of the business) are in the midrange of company size (5,000 units or less) and they use reefers as a niche service in their operation, or they only use reefers to primarily haul all they move.
I know training within the driver pool will be a Corporate challenge, truck drivers sometimes can be pretty resistant to change their ideas of how things shoud be done.
Any rate, Hope you'll be a frequent visitor and contributor here.
Here's some more on the "Ag Exemption". You may not want to believe this line is from a US Supreme Court decision, but it is.
"A chicken that has been killed and dressed is still a chicken."
http://supreme.justia.com/us/351/49/case.html
Basially, a motor carrier, "Frozen Food Express", had to go to the US Supreme Court in order to be allowed to haul dead chickens.
They didn't have a Federal "Certificate" to haul the dead chickens so other competing motor carriers tried to stop them from hauling the birds. FFE argued that the chickens were an ag commodity and therefore exempt from economic regulation. The Supreme Court agreed.
One would hope they had more important things to decide, but I guess not. I'm convinced economic regulation of transport greatly harmed our country and obviously wasted the Supreme Court's time.
challenger3980 Trucking has been very regulated, back to 1935. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/TruckingDeregulation.html I have been a Truck Driver since 1988, although both of the companies that have I worked for were private, not common carriers, and not subject to rate regulation, I have heard a lot about deregulation, being in the industry. It had been very regulated to 1980. I don't have to deal with rate regulations myself, so I don't know what type of regulations are still in effect, but to say that The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated, is just not accurate. Doug
Trucking has been very regulated, back to 1935.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/TruckingDeregulation.html
I have been a Truck Driver since 1988, although both of the companies that have I worked for were private, not common carriers, and not subject to rate regulation, I have heard a lot about deregulation, being in the industry. It had been very regulated to 1980. I don't have to deal with rate regulations myself, so I don't know what type of regulations are still in effect, but to say that The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated, is just not accurate.
Hi Doug. No offense guy, but you're wrong.
I'm talking about agricultural commodities here. Things such as potatoes, carrots, apples, onions, lettuce, you know, food.
There was an "Agricultural Exemption" to interstate truck rate regulation from the get go.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1070803
Effectively this exemption meant that the interstate truck rates on produce (and livestock) were never regulated. The truck rates moved with the market while rail rates were held fixed and constant by regulation. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this would significantly disadvantage the rail carriers in their competition with motor carriers.
California produces about half the fresh fruits and vegetables in the US. (It also exports a significant amount of the produce to Canada.) Washington state also grows a lot of what we eat. This west coast production moves long distances to eastern population centers. The production has a seasonality that causes the demand for transportation services to vary throughout the year.
The unregulated truck rates changed (and still change) with the demand cycle. In the summer, when demand is high, the rates go up. In the winter, when demand is low, the rates go down.
In the winter a trucker will run for fuel money, to make his truck payments, and to stay insured. He'll make his income in the summer when he can charge more. This is the way it's been since trucks came about.
The railroads, in contrast, could not vary their regulated rates with the demand cycle. They were leally required to charge the same amount no matter what the market did. This meant that they put their refrigerated equipment in storage during the slack demand periods when the truckers were free to undercut the rail rates. It also meant that they had to sell below the market price during high demand periods.
Obviously, this is no way to run a business. But It was what was required by the stupid misguided Federal economic regulation of rail rates. As I correctly said, this regulation never applied to the competing motor carriers.
The railroads just couldn't make money/break even storing their equipment for a good part of the year and selling below market for the rest of the year. So they just let the produce go away.
As I further correctly said, those misguided regulations of rail charges are now gone and the railroads can get a decent chunk of this high volume, long haul business back.
challenger3980I don't have to deal with rate regulations myself, so I don't know what type of regulations are still in effect, but to say that The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated, is just not accurate.
Your statement is absolutely false. Rates for unprocessed agricultural products were not regulated. It was known as the agricultural exemption and I am 99% sure it went all the way back to when motor carrier rates and services were first regulated in 1935.
Apples, pears and potatoes, the largest tonnage products of the Wenatchee and Yakima Valleys and the Columbia Basin of Eastern Washington are unprocessed ag. products, so Greyhounds' statement is correct
Mac
greyhounds Most of you know I'm "passionate" about the rail intermodal market opportunity for hauling temperature controlled products (food). This stuff moves in large volumes for long distances. (California/Washington to points east of the Mississippi for example.) The predominant mode of transport is truck. I'm convinced that the diversion of this traffic from rail to truck was the result of past stupid misguided federal economic regulation of rail rates. (The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated.) Since the economic rate regulation is now gone, the railroads can get a good chunk of this business back. The long haul volumes are basically huge. I've made a couple posts about Rail Logistics acquring some reefer containers to start hauling Washington produce to Chicago. (They're supposed to start tomorrow.) Now it looks as if a "Big Kahuna" is comming to the party. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/modelintermodal/files/JBH%20reefer%20container/ (left click on the photo tag to view the picture.) Hunt is the 2nd largest truckload carrier in the US. Over the past years they have shifted from being strictly an over the road trucker to being primarily focused on itnermodal. In the past they've only moved dry freight in their containers. I don't know how many reefer containers they're acquiring. But I don't think they'll do this in a small way. This could be another "revolution" in rail intermodal. Everybody eats every day. Food production is very concentrated by commodity and the food is shipped long distances in high volumes to population centers. It now goes largely by truck. If JB Hunt makes this work, and I wouldn't bet against them, it will mean huge new volumes of intermodal freight on the rails. Other transportation companies will follow Hunt's lead.
Most of you know I'm "passionate" about the rail intermodal market opportunity for hauling temperature controlled products (food). This stuff moves in large volumes for long distances. (California/Washington to points east of the Mississippi for example.) The predominant mode of transport is truck. I'm convinced that the diversion of this traffic from rail to truck was the result of past stupid misguided federal economic regulation of rail rates. (The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated.)
Since the economic rate regulation is now gone, the railroads can get a good chunk of this business back. The long haul volumes are basically huge.
I've made a couple posts about Rail Logistics acquring some reefer containers to start hauling Washington produce to Chicago. (They're supposed to start tomorrow.) Now it looks as if a "Big Kahuna" is comming to the party.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/modelintermodal/files/JBH%20reefer%20container/
(left click on the photo tag to view the picture.)
Hunt is the 2nd largest truckload carrier in the US. Over the past years they have shifted from being strictly an over the road trucker to being primarily focused on itnermodal. In the past they've only moved dry freight in their containers. I don't know how many reefer containers they're acquiring. But I don't think they'll do this in a small way.
This could be another "revolution" in rail intermodal. Everybody eats every day. Food production is very concentrated by commodity and the food is shipped long distances in high volumes to population centers. It now goes largely by truck. If JB Hunt makes this work, and I wouldn't bet against them, it will mean huge new volumes of intermodal freight on the rails. Other transportation companies will follow Hunt's lead.
Interesting. I hope you're right, Greyhounds. This is something that's LONG, long overdue and it's a great opportunity for the Class I's to capitalize (maybe even some regionals as well). Still hope to see someone utilize the Rail Mate and Railrunner technologies.
Well, you might want to join the group on a temporary basis and take a look.
JBHU567000 at least has the potential to be the most important development in rail intermodal since the double stack car.
But again, I don't know how many they're acquiring. I heard they're getting a significant number. But I don't know for sure.
Greyhounds;
I experienced a little problem going into the Yahoo Intermodal Group website-They want you to join inorder to view...Maybe another time.
So from JB Hunt's Web site here is some info on their reefer (and dry) intermodal ops. Once in off link you can look around as you wish: http://www.jbhunt.com/intermodal/index.html
From their Refrigerated Solutions section:
"...J.B. Hunt utilizes thousands of refrigerated providers, complemented by over 500 company-owned refrigerated trailers to provide comprehensive solutions for any refrigerated need. With both truckload (TL) and less than truckload (LTL) refrigerated solutions, J.B. Hunt will work to maximize every refrigerated transportation dollar spent. Our refrigerated specialists will work with to understand your supply chain from beginning to end and help with solutions that meet your specific needs..."
While researching the above thread I found the following links to be possibly relevant here as well:
J.B. Hunt Net Surges http://www.trafficworld.com/news/dailynews/071604b.asp
79 percent in 2QJ.B. Hunt, BNSF in Dispute: http://www.trafficworld.com/news/dailynews/070904b.asp
Both articles linked from the website of the Industry Publication TRAFFIC WORLD
LOL
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