Is ice cream shipped transcontinentally? Or regionally? Are there local facilities which manufacture for regional distribution? Seems like it would make sense?Ed
edbenton Greyhoiunds THE HELL THE LOAD WILL BE SAFE FOR A FEW HOURS. Even Precooled in 100 degree heat which is VERY TYPICAL in the Central Valley of California a Trailer can go from 34 degrees to 60 in 5 hours when a Reefer UNIT FAILS. How do I know this I had one BREAKDOWN in Bakersfield 20 Mins before I was supposed to RELOAD. 5 hours later my trailer was at 60. Try to Precool a reefer unit to -20 in 120 degree heat in TEXAS to get a load of Baskin Robbins on out of College Station took 48 hours with an ICE CREAM SPECED UNIT that was had 40 thousand BTU's of cooling capacity at -30 in 120 degree heat to do it. I'll bet you this 90% of what they are hauling is this Frozen or Dried or all ready Shreeded foods. See the USDA does not make a differance in Dried or FRESH apricots to them they are the SAME things. Imported Dried ones are marked differant. Lettuce they might be hauling Bagged Shredded for Mc Donalds. See you pack the bags with Nitrogen you can stop the decay for a couple weeks. Bet you did not know that did you. Strawberries they found out package the pallets with compressed Nitrogen gas with a touch of Helium stops them from ROTTING. Be amazed the stuff you learn on the shipping floor of the packing houses.
Greyhoiunds THE HELL THE LOAD WILL BE SAFE FOR A FEW HOURS. Even Precooled in 100 degree heat which is VERY TYPICAL in the Central Valley of California a Trailer can go from 34 degrees to 60 in 5 hours when a Reefer UNIT FAILS. How do I know this I had one BREAKDOWN in Bakersfield 20 Mins before I was supposed to RELOAD. 5 hours later my trailer was at 60. Try to Precool a reefer unit to -20 in 120 degree heat in TEXAS to get a load of Baskin Robbins on out of College Station took 48 hours with an ICE CREAM SPECED UNIT that was had 40 thousand BTU's of cooling capacity at -30 in 120 degree heat to do it. I'll bet you this 90% of what they are hauling is this Frozen or Dried or all ready Shreeded foods. See the USDA does not make a differance in Dried or FRESH apricots to them they are the SAME things. Imported Dried ones are marked differant. Lettuce they might be hauling Bagged Shredded for Mc Donalds. See you pack the bags with Nitrogen you can stop the decay for a couple weeks. Bet you did not know that did you. Strawberries they found out package the pallets with compressed Nitrogen gas with a touch of Helium stops them from ROTTING. Be amazed the stuff you learn on the shipping floor of the packing houses.
You loose your bet. The numbers are for Fresh Fruits and Vegetables.
As to McDonalds....Before my Ex Wife acquired the "Ex" prefix she worked in distribution for McDonalds at their Oak Brook, IL corporate headquarters. I remember going with her to a distribution facility near Lemont, IL and watching her stick a thermometer into some shredded lettuce. She told me all about the lettuce thing.
I also know about controlled atmosphere use in shipping. Do you know that it is now possible to move fresh (not frozen) pork by ship to Japan and have it arrive with a good shelf life remaining? While you've got a lot of knowledge and experience, you're not the only one posting who has knowledge experience in moving temperature controlled products.
As to your trailer going up to 60 degrees in five hours... As I read your post you did not have a load in the trailer. 22 tons of product at 34 degrees in an insulated box is going to take a while to get warm enough to be damaged. The lettuce doesn't go bad the instant the reefer unit quits. And it's not the air temperature in the trailer/container that counts. It's the temperature of the product that counts. Eventually, the temperature of the load will increase to the air temp in the vehicle. But that's going to take a while. So there is some time. The rail units will be remotely monitored and in the rare cases where the refrigeration system does fail a decision based on the rate of temperature change can be made as to what to do. Reefer units don't fail very often, and when they do it's not like someone is having a heart attack. There is time to evaluate the situation and take a resonable course of action. Unless you're hauling ice cream.
As to ice cream. I obviously have no authority or standing to speak for any entitiy in the North American rail system. However, I feel confident that they would agree with me when I say: "Keep the freaking ice cream". The railroads will haul the soup, the salad, the meat, the potatoes, as well as the other veggies and the wine. The truckers can keep the ice cream desert. Deal?
Note: Ice Cream is one of the most "non-transportable" commodities there is.
narig01 I think Dole is shipping lettuce by rail again. Heard some rumors bout this when I was out in California last year. The biggest surprise on the list is broccoli. Broccoli is pretty sensitive, and you need to ice it down after loading to keep it from drying out. I think this may be going out as frozen, not fresh. Grapes are another surprise, but again shouldn't be. During the winter we(in the US) get a lot of grapes up from Chile. They take about a week in transit. and a couple of days to the stores. Rgds IGN
I think Dole is shipping lettuce by rail again. Heard some rumors bout this when I was out in California last year. The biggest surprise on the list is broccoli. Broccoli is pretty sensitive, and you need to ice it down after loading to keep it from drying out. I think this may be going out as frozen, not fresh.
Grapes are another surprise, but again shouldn't be. During the winter we(in the US) get a lot of grapes up from Chile. They take about a week in transit. and a couple of days to the stores.
Rgds IGN
No, that's fresh broccoli. The numbers are from a "Fresh Fruit and Vegetable" report. If the produce is frozen the USDA doesn't include it in the report. (I wish they did include frozen products. Potatoes are a big volume commodity and most of them go as frozen processed product or dehydratred product. It takes a lot more work to quantify the potato transportation market.)
It's also not processed lettuce. It's heads of Iceberg and Romaine. The USDA breaks out processed lettuce as a seperate commodity and no processed lettuce shows as moving by rail.
The railroads can haul this stuff well enough. But I fully agree that railroad operating supervisors sometimes tend to lack a "Customer Centric" approach to their jobs.
The mess with spinach turned out to be a problem of animal control. Specifically a herd of cattle wandered onto the field where the spinach was being grown. It was not a problem with the shipping container. I was in the middle of that as a whole lot of shippers were absolutely nuts about cleanliness. Now you have to provide a copy of washout receipt before loading or dropping a trailer.
And no trucking co's had any liability at the end of that. Just got stuck disposing of a whole lot of spinach that went bad whilst everyone was figuring out what to do.
edbenton IGN trouble is NOt all places DO THAT. Anyone remember a couple years ago that Spinach recall. Guess who was HO<DING the bag them the OTR truckers. NOT THE PACKERS THE GROWER NOPE THE FINAL LEG OF THE SHIPMENTS. BTW all contamination is NOT BLOODY either. Improper cleaning of equipment can a does cause more issues whit FOOD BORNE stuff yet does JB Hunt know how to handle it. I doubt it. Also What Watertight containers. you have to allow drainage from these things or MOLD GROWS IN THEM FASTER THAN OPRAH AND KRISTIE ALLEY EATING A PIZZA TOGETHER. That is why there is 4 drains in EACH of these things one in each corner so after they are Washed out they can drain the excess WATER OUT OF THEM.
IGN trouble is NOt all places DO THAT. Anyone remember a couple years ago that Spinach recall. Guess who was HO<DING the bag them the OTR truckers. NOT THE PACKERS THE GROWER NOPE THE FINAL LEG OF THE SHIPMENTS. BTW all contamination is NOT BLOODY either. Improper cleaning of equipment can a does cause more issues whit FOOD BORNE stuff yet does JB Hunt know how to handle it. I doubt it. Also What Watertight containers. you have to allow drainage from these things or MOLD GROWS IN THEM FASTER THAN OPRAH AND KRISTIE ALLEY EATING A PIZZA TOGETHER. That is why there is 4 drains in EACH of these things one in each corner so after they are Washed out they can drain the excess WATER OUT OF THEM.
Ed, if they weren't watertight there would be no need for the drains to let the water out.
You see, when they want to clean the inside of the container somebody takes a high pressure hose and intentionally puts water inside. Otherwise, the idea is to keep water out. But when they use water to clean the inside they have to remove the water.... Oh, never mind.
comments: 1 If a load melts and leaks out of its container the roof of the container underneath should keep out the liquid.
2. Produce is checked pretty closely, as it goes bad all too easy. If a receiver sees blood inside a trailer, or other transport container here is what happens. 1. USDA is called for inspection. 2. When USDA inspector sees blood he/she condemns load. 3. carrier must then remove offending cargo & 4. must provide USDA certification of how load was disposed of.
Watched this happen to an owner operator. He emptied out on a meat load that left blood all over the trailer. Then helped him unload cargo at a land fill. He had to get someone from landfill to witness the disposal and sign a statement that cargo was then made unrecoverable. The guy from landfill just stood there as we (the driver, his wife & myself) tossed cargo off the back of trailer, and then when it was covered in ground.
edbenton"Also another BIG issue is Cross Contaimination were say you have Fresh meat on top of Veggies BELOW and that unit on top QUITS. Say Ecoli was in that top reefer of meat and got into those Veggies. Now what are you going to do as the RR or JB HUnt. When word leaks out it WAS YOU THAT CAUSED THE ISSUE. Better have DEEP POCKETS."
"Also another BIG issue is Cross Contaimination were say you have Fresh meat on top of Veggies BELOW and that unit on top QUITS. Say Ecoli was in that top reefer of meat and got into those Veggies. Now what are you going to do as the RR or JB HUnt. When word leaks out it WAS YOU THAT CAUSED THE ISSUE. Better have DEEP POCKETS."
edbentonOh yeah I know all about needing that TWIC card for a Rail Yard the Fed Background check for the Haz-Mat Endorsement and even needing a Passport for going to Canada. Give me a break. Cdl is now 150 here in IL TWIC is 50 HAZMAT is another 50 yet if you can get either the of those 2 you can get the OTHER ONE. Yet if you apply for them you have to pay for each separtate Background check. I loved the clearance I had back when I drove. TS/SC level 2 so lets just say could and did pull about anything out there.
Oh yeah I know all about needing that TWIC card for a Rail Yard the Fed Background check for the Haz-Mat Endorsement and even needing a Passport for going to Canada. Give me a break. Cdl is now 150 here in IL TWIC is 50 HAZMAT is another 50 yet if you can get either the of those 2 you can get the OTHER ONE. Yet if you apply for them you have to pay for each separtate Background check. I loved the clearance I had back when I drove. TS/SC level 2 so lets just say could and did pull about anything out there.
Paul_D_North_JrHaving thought about this a bit more, perhaps what J.B. Hunt is doing does validate what Ed Benton is saying, to a degree - instead of performing the long-haul reefer run, Hunt is essentially subcontracting it to BNSF, just like it would to a truck owner-operator. That way, BNSF - not Hunt - is primarily responsible for all those operational issues. The irony is - will we see a return to the days of passenger train and livestock train servicing facilities ? Maybe not too many of us here will know just what that means . . . What I mean is this: Imagine a train of a couple hundred loaded reefers speeding across the desert at 0-Dark:30 - or better yet, in the middle of a scorching summer afternoon. A couple of them in the middle run low or out of fuel, the engine quits on another, another loses its refrigerant, another refuses to start when commanded by either its thermostat or the GPS-based remote monitor, another has a clogged fuel filter and loses power, another has a clogged lube oil filter or loses pressure in that system and shuts down, and another one develops a cooling system leak, loses its coolant, and shuts down - and a few other assorted mishaps that we can all well imagine, because even the best and most diligent Preventative Maintenance can do only so muich. All of this is duly reported to J. B. Hunt's operating HQ by satellite radio. Now, what do Hunt and/ or BNSF do then ? Do they just continue on ahead with the train and risk losing those loads ? Or do they try to stop at the next point with mechanical forces and repair all these defects ? With extended crew and loco districts, it might be several hundred miles and 8 to 10 hours until that happens. And once there, what kinds of skills, equipment, and parts will be on hand ? How long are the other functioning reefer containers on that train going to be delayed while the crew tries to repair the malfunctioning ones ? Will they have to pull the train forward a few times to spot the cars needing fuel and repairs where the fuel truck and tools can reach them ? How long does all this take ? How does the repair crew afely get to the refrigeration units on the upper level of the double-stacks ? What if the container has to be unloaded to be repaired - how is that accomplished in the middle of nowhere, a long ways from any intermodal terminal with that kind of lift capacity ? Or is the whole 'car' of wells or platforms set out for further TLC as that can be arranged ? And who among the general carknocker force dependably knows anything about refrigeration ? What I'm wondering if with enough of this kind of 'stuff' happening, whether it won't be worthwhile or evolve into establishing a couple of service points along the way, at intervals of from 200 to 300 miles, to be able to intelligently diagnose and capably remedy at least some of these problems, or at least furnish enough 'first aid' so that the container and its load can limp along to the end terminal for better repairs or transfer to a working container, etc. ? Any thoughts on this ? - Paul North.
Having thought about this a bit more, perhaps what J.B. Hunt is doing does validate what Ed Benton is saying, to a degree - instead of performing the long-haul reefer run, Hunt is essentially subcontracting it to BNSF, just like it would to a truck owner-operator. That way, BNSF - not Hunt - is primarily responsible for all those operational issues.
The irony is - will we see a return to the days of passenger train and livestock train servicing facilities ? Maybe not too many of us here will know just what that means . . .
What I mean is this: Imagine a train of a couple hundred loaded reefers speeding across the desert at 0-Dark:30 - or better yet, in the middle of a scorching summer afternoon. A couple of them in the middle run low or out of fuel, the engine quits on another, another loses its refrigerant, another refuses to start when commanded by either its thermostat or the GPS-based remote monitor, another has a clogged fuel filter and loses power, another has a clogged lube oil filter or loses pressure in that system and shuts down, and another one develops a cooling system leak, loses its coolant, and shuts down - and a few other assorted mishaps that we can all well imagine, because even the best and most diligent Preventative Maintenance can do only so muich. All of this is duly reported to J. B. Hunt's operating HQ by satellite radio.
Now, what do Hunt and/ or BNSF do then ? Do they just continue on ahead with the train and risk losing those loads ? Or do they try to stop at the next point with mechanical forces and repair all these defects ? With extended crew and loco districts, it might be several hundred miles and 8 to 10 hours until that happens. And once there, what kinds of skills, equipment, and parts will be on hand ? How long are the other functioning reefer containers on that train going to be delayed while the crew tries to repair the malfunctioning ones ? Will they have to pull the train forward a few times to spot the cars needing fuel and repairs where the fuel truck and tools can reach them ? How long does all this take ? How does the repair crew afely get to the refrigeration units on the upper level of the double-stacks ? What if the container has to be unloaded to be repaired - how is that accomplished in the middle of nowhere, a long ways from any intermodal terminal with that kind of lift capacity ? Or is the whole 'car' of wells or platforms set out for further TLC as that can be arranged ? And who among the general carknocker force dependably knows anything about refrigeration ?
What I'm wondering if with enough of this kind of 'stuff' happening, whether it won't be worthwhile or evolve into establishing a couple of service points along the way, at intervals of from 200 to 300 miles, to be able to intelligently diagnose and capably remedy at least some of these problems, or at least furnish enough 'first aid' so that the container and its load can limp along to the end terminal for better repairs or transfer to a working container, etc. ? Any thoughts on this ?
- Paul North.
Last summer had a load of ice cream and unit failed in +90f temp 11pm sat nite. Nearest Carrier repair was 100 miles out of route(I was on I-70, Colby, Ks. Had to go to Dodge City, Ks to get fixed. Problem was compressor clutch blew out on a brand new unit/ trailer (2 wks old). The shop did not have clutch and we ended up having to swing a rental unit on trailer.
This was not cheap. Carrier paid for the repairs, My company ended up paying for the rental unit and then paid me all the miles involved and then we had to take some cheap o freight to get back to Dodge to get the repaired unit back on trailer. I've seen worse. (Another co's melted creme pies in Casa Grande, Az) .
Worse case if you have competent people available, on a railroad operation is you replace unit on trailer. I've been told that happens when a unit goes bad on a railcar. I know from experance that BNSF has some good refridgeration mechanics on staff at Willow Springs. (helped me with a unit that sucked the crude out of the bottom of a fuel tank.)
The best defense is having knowledgable people that know to pretrip unit before loading and then having staff available enroute. (a good driver).
Paul_D_North_Jr Having thought about this a bit more, perhaps what J.B. Hunt is doing does validate what Ed Benton is saying, to a degree - instead of performing the long-haul reefer run, Hunt is essentially subcontracting it to BNSF, just like it would to a truck owner-operator. That way, BNSF - not Hunt - is primarily responsible for all those operational issues. The irony is - will we see a return to the days of passenger train and livestock train servicing facilities ? Maybe not too many of us here will know just what that means . . . What I mean is this: Imagine a train of a couple hundred loaded reefers speeding across the desert at 0-Dark:30 - or better yet, in the middle of a scorching summer afternoon. A couple of them in the middle run low or out of fuel, the engine quits on another, another loses its refrigerant, another refuses to start when commanded by either its thermostat or the GPS-based remote monitor, another has a clogged fuel filter and loses power, another has a clogged lube oil filter or loses pressure in that system and shuts down, and another one develops a cooling system leak, loses its coolant, and shuts down - and a few other assorted mishaps that we can all well imagine, because even the best and most diligent Preventative Maintenance can do only so muich. All of this is duly reported to J. B. Hunt's operating HQ by satellite radio. Now, what do Hunt and/ or BNSF do then ? Do they just continue on ahead with the train and risk losing those loads ? Or do they try to stop at the next point with mechanical forces and repair all these defects ? With extended crew and loco districts, it might be several hundred miles and 8 to 10 hours until that happens. And once there, what kinds of skills, equipment, and parts will be on hand ? How long are the other functioning reefer containers on that train going to be delayed while the crew tries to repair the malfunctioning ones ? Will they have to pull the train forward a few times to spot the cars needing fuel and repairs where the fuel truck and tools can reach them ? How long does all this take ? How does the repair crew afely get to the refrigeration units on the upper level of the double-stacks ? What if the container has to be unloaded to be repaired - how is that accomplished in the middle of nowhere, a long ways from any intermodal terminal with that kind of lift capacity ? Or is the whole 'car' of wells or platforms set out for further TLC as that can be arranged ? And who among the general carknocker force dependably knows anything about refrigeration ? What I'm wondering if with enough of this kind of 'stuff' happening, whether it won't be worthwhile or evolve into establishing a couple of service points along the way, at intervals of from 200 to 300 miles, to be able to intelligently diagnose and capably remedy at least some of these problems, or at least furnish enough 'first aid' so that the container and its load can limp along to the end terminal for better repairs or transfer to a working container, etc. ? Any thoughts on this ? - Paul North.
Paul, despite what Ed is saying about the meat melting in the top container and the bottom container leaking all at the same time, the railroads can successfully handle this freight and have been doing so for a long time. They just weren't allowed to compete and now have to reestablish themselves.
USDA divides California into four reporting regions. North, Central, South and Imperial Valley. I just grabbed the numbers from the Central Region because I don't want to spend all night on this. For the 12 month period ending March 27, 2010 the railroads moved 25,664 truckload equivalents (45,000 pounds) of fresh fruits and vegetables from the Central California Region. While this is but a fraction of what moved by truck, I think it more than proves that the railroads have the ability and knowledge to handle FF&V. The rail tonnage was split about evenly between intermodal and rail car.
If you want to do your own checking of my numbers you may do so at:
http://www.marketnews.usda.gov/portal/fv
If you've got a bad order reefer unit, then you've got a bad order. If the problem can be fixed while in the train then it gets fixed. If you need to set out the load, then you set it out for repair. There's no need to panic. It's a 45,000 pound or so load in an insulated box. It's been cooled down (suposidly) to the proper temperature prior to shipment. It won't go bad all that quickly. (The ice cream can stay in the trucks.)
The vast majority of the loads will come though with no problems. It then gets into being a trade off as to how much is spent on freight claims vs how much is spent baby sitting the reefer units. With the tremendous cost advantage double stack has over trucking the railroads will be able to build the loss and damage factor in to their rates and still come out ahead.
Here are the intermodal commodities from the Central California Region for the 12 months ended 3/27/2010. I didn't break out the rail car by commodity, but if anyone wants to do that, please be my guest.
Also another BIG issue is Cross Contaimination were say you have Fresh meat on top of Veggies BELOW and that unit on top QUITS. Say Ecoli was in that top reefer of meat and got into those Veggies. Now what are you going to do as the RR or JB HUnt. When word leaks out it WAS YOU THAT CAUSED THE ISSUE. Better have DEEP POCKETS.
edbentonYou know it really helps to have HIGHER ups that are close Friends in the OTR industry. One is the Owner of a 300 Reefer outfit in IL the next is the CEO of a 100 Tanker truck with a 200 truck Dry van side and has a Logistics divison that controls 2 million Square feet of Warehouse space. The last one is the OWNER of a 20 truck reefer carrier based out of OREGON. They all said the same thing JB HUNT WILL FAIL in this for one reason they refuse to think that they can fail. Their OR for the 3 companies are 94 90 96 JB last Quarter was 99. Why were the Reefer boys so much Higher simple called CARGO CLAIMS AND DEADHEAD MILES plus Reefer Maintance and FUEL. Produce is and ALWAYS has been touchy. Iceberg lettuce was devolped for one reason IT SHIPPED WELL that was it. Those Spring mix salads you get in the Stores from Fresh Express have been out of the field LESS THAN 48 hours BEFORE GETTING TO THE FACTORY TO BE PACKAGED UP and 4 days before they get to the store MAX. Those are Team loads all the way. When your hauling them the ONLY THING THAT YOUR STOPPING FOR IS FUEL A PEE BREAK AND A SUBWAY SANDWICH at the Pilot Truck stop. The rest of the time your left door is closed and your foot is BURIED IN THAT ACCLERATOR. Look I am not anti RR or OTR trucking. However I have seen how the Mega Carriers like JB Hunt treat drivers and it sucks. You see their trailers and containers going down the rail all the time and go well they must have more Freight than they can handle. No what they have done is gotten rid of their long haul boys and forced them to all be local or Regional drivers. There are alot of drivers out there like ME still that refuse to be treated like that and will fight being forced to run like that.
You know it really helps to have HIGHER ups that are close Friends in the OTR industry. One is the Owner of a 300 Reefer outfit in IL the next is the CEO of a 100 Tanker truck with a 200 truck Dry van side and has a Logistics divison that controls 2 million Square feet of Warehouse space. The last one is the OWNER of a 20 truck reefer carrier based out of OREGON. They all said the same thing JB HUNT WILL FAIL in this for one reason they refuse to think that they can fail. Their OR for the 3 companies are 94 90 96 JB last Quarter was 99. Why were the Reefer boys so much Higher simple called CARGO CLAIMS AND DEADHEAD MILES plus Reefer Maintance and FUEL. Produce is and ALWAYS has been touchy. Iceberg lettuce was devolped for one reason IT SHIPPED WELL that was it. Those Spring mix salads you get in the Stores from Fresh Express have been out of the field LESS THAN 48 hours BEFORE GETTING TO THE FACTORY TO BE PACKAGED UP and 4 days before they get to the store MAX. Those are Team loads all the way. When your hauling them the ONLY THING THAT YOUR STOPPING FOR IS FUEL A PEE BREAK AND A SUBWAY SANDWICH at the Pilot Truck stop. The rest of the time your left door is closed and your foot is BURIED IN THAT ACCLERATOR. Look I am not anti RR or OTR trucking. However I have seen how the Mega Carriers like JB Hunt treat drivers and it sucks.
You see their trailers and containers going down the rail all the time and go well they must have more Freight than they can handle. No what they have done is gotten rid of their long haul boys and forced them to all be local or Regional drivers. There are alot of drivers out there like ME still that refuse to be treated like that and will fight being forced to run like that.
My company has tried numerous times to get at least a part of this to go by rail. It has been a very very frustrating expieriance for management every time they try.
Believe it or not appox 20% of the lettuce is now coming from places other than California or Az. Also only a small percentage of the loads now are going as team loads.
The main thing on something like this is service, service, service. Getting the railroads to understand that has been a real hassle. As I described earlier, there was some flexibility in the way we did things that my company had contingency plans set up. But when the railroad involved shut us out they only had to deal with what amounted to 1 load. My company had to deal with a whole lot more.
Eventually it came down to what was more reliable trying to deal with an inflexible organization or doing ourselves with a very flexible operation.
by the way you do know that you now have to have a TWIC card to deliver or pickup trailers at a rail yard.
The more things CHANGE the more they stay the SAME in Produce hauling. Here was one of my Normal runs in 2000. This was for picking up either in Yuma or Salinas. Would have about 4-6 Pick ups at differant coolers in those areas. Maybe get 2-4 pallets at all but the LAST STOP then at the last stop fill the trailer up. Then head to final destination were all the produce was delivered. What you want to happen is were the cities are hamstrung by here is what you get from the RR's and here is all you get to choose from. See the OTR Industry gave CONSUMERS A CHOICE. BTW it was this way 40 years ago WHEN MY FATHER was pulling Produce out of California in a Ice Bunker reefer trailer, So my IDEAS ARE NOT OUTDATED. What has changed is the IDIOTS IN THE DISPATCH OFFICE AND THAT IS IT.
Activated the link for you (I hope) -
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Merrill+St,+Salinas,+Monterey,+California&sll=40.857448,-73.866577&sspn=0.221756,0.676346&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FQE7LwId3wPA-A&split=0&hq=&hnear=Merrill+St,+Salinas,+Monterey,+California&ll=36.650483,-121.632922&spn=0.007781,0.021136&t=h&z=16
EDIT - Yep, you're right - Google Maps shows it as ''Smurfit-Stone Container Corp.'', and if you look real close at the northern end of the plant, you can even see a couple of boxcars extending out beyond the weather-roof overhang above the loading dock.
On your other point - 100,000 lbs. = 50 tons, to 500,000 lbs. = 250 tons - that's like from 2 to 10 truckloads, but only 1/2 to 2-1/2 typical railcar loads, unless it loads lightly or is worth a full car's freight for what it is. Since a railcar can carry as much as 3 to 4 trucks on a weight-only basis, that size and 'scale' advantage turns into a disadvantage at the lower end of that range, and for fractional loads that are just over the capacity of a 'whole' or 'even' / rounded number of railcars - although maybe a truck or two could haul the fractional portion. But for shipments of over or in increments of about 200,000 lbs. = 4 trucks or 1 railcar - yeah, that ought to be 'meat on the platter' to be pursued. And as you noted above - it's just pocket change.
Well said - not new, either, as your story above from the mid-1980's - early 1990's indicates. John Kneiling used to say that the railroad should just stick to the 'big stuff' - driving the train - and leave the marketing and customer relations work to the local outfits who are small enough to care about and respond to such things. That culture may have changed - but I doubt it - there's not a whole lot of evidence that it has.
In High School read John Kneiling's articles in trains every chance I could.
One other comment, and this is a little frustration, One of the places I see for real change is the movement of cargos that are in the 100000# to 500000# area. These days if you do not have a rail dock you call your local freight broker who sends forth a cattle call for trucks.
The point I'll make here is this is the kind of cluster rail should have, but do not even try for.
edbentonEverything BUT THE BUILDINGS THEY MOVE and the Refrigunits thate. The Units that cool the Produce from the FIELDS are PORTABLE and are MOVED ALL THE TIME. They ship anything that can be moved to between Salinasa and Yuma. The Growers take the Harversters EVERTHING THAT WILL MOVE. Can you do that will RR Tracks. Heck I asked Drivers that are pulling Produce in California if the Coolers in Salinsas EVEN HAD SIDINGS anymore I was told NO. I called our local BULK food Distributor located right on the Transcon mainline why they stopped getting frozen spuds via railcar. THE SPUDS WERE ARRIVING THAWED OUT. These were coming in NEW Cars that were RUNNING OUT OF FUEL AND THE BNSF WAS NOT BOTHERING TO REFUEL THEM IN TRANSIT. The Bulf foods WAREHOUSE lost 2 contracts because of this and 3 MILLION IN ANNUAL SALES. The question on BNSF . BNSF's refridgeration units are satelite controlled units. Whomever told you the sidings don't exist is incorrect. I know for a fact that Merril St in Salinas still has rail service as one of the cardboard box companies(Smurfit Stone ?) is located on the street and still gets carloads of cardboard there as well as a monthly shipment of adhesives by tank car. The branches in here still exist look at the below location. http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Merrill+St,+Salinas,+Monterey,+California&sll=40.857448,-73.866577&sspn=0.221756,0.676346&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FQE7LwId3wPA-A&split=0&hq=&hnear=Merrill+St,+Salinas,+Monterey,+California&ll=36.650483,-121.632922&spn=0.007781,0.021136&t=h&z=16
Everything BUT THE BUILDINGS THEY MOVE and the Refrigunits thate. The Units that cool the Produce from the FIELDS are PORTABLE and are MOVED ALL THE TIME. They ship anything that can be moved to between Salinasa and Yuma. The Growers take the Harversters EVERTHING THAT WILL MOVE. Can you do that will RR Tracks. Heck I asked Drivers that are pulling Produce in California if the Coolers in Salinsas EVEN HAD SIDINGS anymore I was told NO. I called our local BULK food Distributor located right on the Transcon mainline why they stopped getting frozen spuds via railcar. THE SPUDS WERE ARRIVING THAWED OUT. These were coming in NEW Cars that were RUNNING OUT OF FUEL AND THE BNSF WAS NOT BOTHERING TO REFUEL THEM IN TRANSIT. The Bulf foods WAREHOUSE lost 2 contracts because of this and 3 MILLION IN ANNUAL SALES.
The question on BNSF . BNSF's refridgeration units are satelite controlled units. Whomever told you the sidings don't exist is incorrect. I know for a fact that Merril St in Salinas still has rail service as one of the cardboard box companies(Smurfit Stone ?) is located on the street and still gets carloads of cardboard there as well as a monthly shipment of adhesives by tank car.
The branches in here still exist look at the below location.
OfficeJockey Look at the % gains. And this is in a "Down Economy" I'm waiting for something more than conjecture and opinion. Have anything?
Look at the % gains. And this is in a "Down Economy"
I'm waiting for something more than conjecture and opinion. Have anything?
I think you made your point already. Ed seems to be not only "at war with anybody who thinks OTR trucking is easy" but with the companies and maybe himself as well. His information is out of date and consists of unreliable anecdotes that make for fun joking with other drivers, but brings little to the discussion of moving forward. I know that the life of the trucker is hard, but if it is as bad as he makes it sound, you'd think he and all the others would quit. Doesn't look that way.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I also had a mullet in 1987.
What's your point? This is 2010.
http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/J.B._Hunt_Transport_Services_(JBHT)
Ask a JB Hunt long distance OTR driver what they think. SO Sorry you can not anymore. After he died the Company did what HE SWORE HE NEVER WOULD they got rid of them. JB Hunt for years the only reason THEY have made a profit is Simple they can UNDERCUT anyone on the Longhaul rates with the Intermodal divison that is the ONLY REASON they are still around. 20 Years ago JB was a Just another Training Company that was Worse than Werner and Swift even. I broke down in Champaign at the International Dealer for 2 days in 1994 when JB was still training Drivers. My truck had a Cracked Steering arm and took a couple days for parts to get in. Well in that time 14 JB Hunts were in that shop all from their School 10 for Clutches 3 for U joints 2 needed rear ends and the other 2 were for drivers that overreved and SPUN BEARINGS.
Yet this company cupposedly knows how to haul reefer freight in Containers excuse me if I do not believe YOU. Pulling reefer is a Tottally Differant ANIMAL. When a Reefer Unit goes down you need to wake up and respond to the UNIT and protect that LOAD. You do what ever is NEEDED to keep it in range. Try having an Alt go out in a Reefer in the middle of the night then the Battery goes dead. Is road Maintance going to be smart enough to tell you to put a jumper wire from the Postive Battery post on both the reefer to the truck to get it running. I doubt it Yet any person that has pulled a reefer load will know to do that in a sec. Try having 4 failures on Thanksgiving weekend been there done that yet still protected that load. Some idiot in a suit is not going to KNOW what to do when it is 120 outside reefer unit runs out of fuel because the idiot that pulled it last did not refuel it. Or try geting a reefer unit UNGELLED in the middle of Winter road Maintance is USLESS in that time what matters is the Drivers. JB Hunt pulling Reefer Containers is not going to work they are NOT GOING TO GET THE DRIVERS THEY NEED. No drivers worth their salt pulling reefer will work for them they would rather work for England first and that is BAD. See JB Hunt has such a bad Rep in the OTR industry that even if they pulled all their loads off the rail tomorrow they would never recover what they lost.
narig01 [snip] One of the impressions I've had about railroads is that they seem to be real good at moving a whole lot of bulk stuff(Grain, Coal) that needs to move from one place to another. However the small stuff the railroads treat like loose change.And if it falls on the ground so what.
However the small stuff the railroads treat like loose change.And if it falls on the ground so what.
OK Ed, I wasn't going to post here any more but, I feel I have to.
You're so convinced your right. That we "CAN'T" do it. What makes you feel like you have better intel that a $4 Billion dollar logistics firm with a large staff of engineers and some of the best minds in the industry? How can you compare your limited experience to the talent within this company? Please, no more CAPS LOCK. You don't need to use color, caps or bold letters to make a point. It doesn't make your points any more solid.
You're right. YOU could not. But JBHUNT can and will. Remember in the mid 1980's when Johnny Bryan Hunt purchased 13,000 rail containers? Remember when that same fella signed an unprecidented contract with BNSF? (And now NS) You know, that company now owned by Mr. Midas Touch hisself, Warren Bufffet. (think he made a bad investment?) So, that being said, YOU think you have it all figured out. That you're right and JBHT is wrong. That's how you feel?
In business you take risks. Some pan out. Some don't. I'd say, from a purely gambling/odds perspective that the odds are HUGELY in favor of JBHT making this a success. And I'm putting my money where my mouth is by investing.
You're so full of "CAN'T" that you can't see any possiblity of "CAN". This is why you never "WILL". Because you've already realized you "CAN'T".
Thanks for your time. But you're no longer contributing anything valuable to this conversation. You information is flawed and so is your logic.
Again, let's revisit this in a year and see how you like the flavor of "Humble Pie". For now, I'm done. Best of luck.
***Apologies to the group if I come across agressive. I'm just irritated by the dialogue and dominating, unbending view of an individual. That, and caps locks come off as shouting. It's very bad forum ettiquette.***
Judging by the number distance errors, I wonder what routes Ed Benton uses between cities?
How about CHI - STL?
At the company were I worked when I asked about rail here is what I was told, this was in the late 80's to mid 90's.
1.On several occasions when problems happened in the field or at the coolers and loading was delayed they could not get the railroad to either a. hold the train b. reschedule load outs.
On one occasion 30 truckloads(with priority reservations) showed up at the gate right at cutoff time. The railroad had been called with an eta when trucks left the cooler. The description I got was that someone stalled the gate so that all these loads missed the train. We had a delivery commitment and the loads had to move, So these ended up on the road. The company had to scramble to cover these with both teams and last minute relays. (the latter was quite expensive)
To add insult to injury the railroad then demanded we pay them for the missed loads, inspite of the fact that the train left fully loaded. On other occasions when my company tried rescheduling the originating terminals(Los Angeles instead of Fresno), they were told that they could only load out of the latter. Now 20 years later managers remember a lot of this frustration.
What happened towards the end was that Fresh produce was being trucked and only the frozen stuff was moving by rail.
One of the impressions I've had about railroads is that they seem to be real good at moving a whole lot of bulk stuff(Grain, Coal) that needs to move from one place to another.
edbentonSure build a Intermodal Terminal at Yuma that will sit UNUSED for 7 MONTHS A YEAR for 50 MILLION BUCKS. UP will get right on it.
I would like to remind you that many of the coolers and other grower facilities sit "UNUSED for 7 MONTHS". If you have enough business to justify the investment when it does get used.
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