Most of you know I'm "passionate" about the rail intermodal market opportunity for hauling temperature controlled products (food). This stuff moves in large volumes for long distances. (California/Washington to points east of the Mississippi for example.) The predominant mode of transport is truck. I'm convinced that the diversion of this traffic from rail to truck was the result of past stupid misguided federal economic regulation of rail rates. (The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated.)
Since the economic rate regulation is now gone, the railroads can get a good chunk of this business back. The long haul volumes are basically huge.
I've made a couple posts about Rail Logistics acquring some reefer containers to start hauling Washington produce to Chicago. (They're supposed to start tomorrow.) Now it looks as if a "Big Kahuna" is comming to the party.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/modelintermodal/files/JBH%20reefer%20container/
(left click on the photo tag to view the picture.)
Hunt is the 2nd largest truckload carrier in the US. Over the past years they have shifted from being strictly an over the road trucker to being primarily focused on itnermodal. In the past they've only moved dry freight in their containers. I don't know how many reefer containers they're acquiring. But I don't think they'll do this in a small way.
This could be another "revolution" in rail intermodal. Everybody eats every day. Food production is very concentrated by commodity and the food is shipped long distances in high volumes to population centers. It now goes largely by truck. If JB Hunt makes this work, and I wouldn't bet against them, it will mean huge new volumes of intermodal freight on the rails. Other transportation companies will follow Hunt's lead.
LOL
Greyhounds;
I experienced a little problem going into the Yahoo Intermodal Group website-They want you to join inorder to view...Maybe another time.
So from JB Hunt's Web site here is some info on their reefer (and dry) intermodal ops. Once in off link you can look around as you wish: http://www.jbhunt.com/intermodal/index.html
From their Refrigerated Solutions section:
"...J.B. Hunt utilizes thousands of refrigerated providers, complemented by over 500 company-owned refrigerated trailers to provide comprehensive solutions for any refrigerated need. With both truckload (TL) and less than truckload (LTL) refrigerated solutions, J.B. Hunt will work to maximize every refrigerated transportation dollar spent. Our refrigerated specialists will work with to understand your supply chain from beginning to end and help with solutions that meet your specific needs..."
While researching the above thread I found the following links to be possibly relevant here as well:
J.B. Hunt Net Surges http://www.trafficworld.com/news/dailynews/071604b.asp
79 percent in 2QJ.B. Hunt, BNSF in Dispute: http://www.trafficworld.com/news/dailynews/070904b.asp
Both articles linked from the website of the Industry Publication TRAFFIC WORLD
Well, you might want to join the group on a temporary basis and take a look.
JBHU567000 at least has the potential to be the most important development in rail intermodal since the double stack car.
But again, I don't know how many they're acquiring. I heard they're getting a significant number. But I don't know for sure.
Interesting. I hope you're right, Greyhounds. This is something that's LONG, long overdue and it's a great opportunity for the Class I's to capitalize (maybe even some regionals as well). Still hope to see someone utilize the Rail Mate and Railrunner technologies.
JB Hunt will make this work. We're doing this for a major retailer for now and will be expanding from there. (The common work at the water cooler)
We all know it's a fit for the industry. You know that, if any company can, JBHT can pull it off. I'm pumped.
The containers are slick too. Inside, you sacrifice only two pallets to make up for the Reefer unit. With them being stackable, it's going to be a thing of beauty.
Good read here fellas. You're on the ball for sure.
greyhounds Most of you know I'm "passionate" about the rail intermodal market opportunity for hauling temperature controlled products (food). This stuff moves in large volumes for long distances. (California/Washington to points east of the Mississippi for example.) The predominant mode of transport is truck. I'm convinced that the diversion of this traffic from rail to truck was the result of past stupid misguided federal economic regulation of rail rates. (The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated.) Since the economic rate regulation is now gone, the railroads can get a good chunk of this business back. The long haul volumes are basically huge. I've made a couple posts about Rail Logistics acquring some reefer containers to start hauling Washington produce to Chicago. (They're supposed to start tomorrow.) Now it looks as if a "Big Kahuna" is comming to the party. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/modelintermodal/files/JBH%20reefer%20container/ (left click on the photo tag to view the picture.) Hunt is the 2nd largest truckload carrier in the US. Over the past years they have shifted from being strictly an over the road trucker to being primarily focused on itnermodal. In the past they've only moved dry freight in their containers. I don't know how many reefer containers they're acquiring. But I don't think they'll do this in a small way. This could be another "revolution" in rail intermodal. Everybody eats every day. Food production is very concentrated by commodity and the food is shipped long distances in high volumes to population centers. It now goes largely by truck. If JB Hunt makes this work, and I wouldn't bet against them, it will mean huge new volumes of intermodal freight on the rails. Other transportation companies will follow Hunt's lead.
Trucking has been very regulated, back to 1935.
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/TruckingDeregulation.html
I have been a Truck Driver since 1988, although both of the companies that have I worked for were private, not common carriers, and not subject to rate regulation, I have heard a lot about deregulation, being in the industry. It had been very regulated to 1980. I don't have to deal with rate regulations myself, so I don't know what type of regulations are still in effect, but to say that The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated, is just not accurate.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
challenger3980I don't have to deal with rate regulations myself, so I don't know what type of regulations are still in effect, but to say that The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated, is just not accurate.
Your statement is absolutely false. Rates for unprocessed agricultural products were not regulated. It was known as the agricultural exemption and I am 99% sure it went all the way back to when motor carrier rates and services were first regulated in 1935.
Apples, pears and potatoes, the largest tonnage products of the Wenatchee and Yakima Valleys and the Columbia Basin of Eastern Washington are unprocessed ag. products, so Greyhounds' statement is correct
Mac
challenger3980 Trucking has been very regulated, back to 1935. http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc1/TruckingDeregulation.html I have been a Truck Driver since 1988, although both of the companies that have I worked for were private, not common carriers, and not subject to rate regulation, I have heard a lot about deregulation, being in the industry. It had been very regulated to 1980. I don't have to deal with rate regulations myself, so I don't know what type of regulations are still in effect, but to say that The interstate truck rates were, for the most part, never regulated, is just not accurate. Doug
Hi Doug. No offense guy, but you're wrong.
I'm talking about agricultural commodities here. Things such as potatoes, carrots, apples, onions, lettuce, you know, food.
There was an "Agricultural Exemption" to interstate truck rate regulation from the get go.
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1070803
Effectively this exemption meant that the interstate truck rates on produce (and livestock) were never regulated. The truck rates moved with the market while rail rates were held fixed and constant by regulation. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that this would significantly disadvantage the rail carriers in their competition with motor carriers.
California produces about half the fresh fruits and vegetables in the US. (It also exports a significant amount of the produce to Canada.) Washington state also grows a lot of what we eat. This west coast production moves long distances to eastern population centers. The production has a seasonality that causes the demand for transportation services to vary throughout the year.
The unregulated truck rates changed (and still change) with the demand cycle. In the summer, when demand is high, the rates go up. In the winter, when demand is low, the rates go down.
In the winter a trucker will run for fuel money, to make his truck payments, and to stay insured. He'll make his income in the summer when he can charge more. This is the way it's been since trucks came about.
The railroads, in contrast, could not vary their regulated rates with the demand cycle. They were leally required to charge the same amount no matter what the market did. This meant that they put their refrigerated equipment in storage during the slack demand periods when the truckers were free to undercut the rail rates. It also meant that they had to sell below the market price during high demand periods.
Obviously, this is no way to run a business. But It was what was required by the stupid misguided Federal economic regulation of rail rates. As I correctly said, this regulation never applied to the competing motor carriers.
The railroads just couldn't make money/break even storing their equipment for a good part of the year and selling below market for the rest of the year. So they just let the produce go away.
As I further correctly said, those misguided regulations of rail charges are now gone and the railroads can get a decent chunk of this high volume, long haul business back.
Here's some more on the "Ag Exemption". You may not want to believe this line is from a US Supreme Court decision, but it is.
"A chicken that has been killed and dressed is still a chicken."
http://supreme.justia.com/us/351/49/case.html
Basially, a motor carrier, "Frozen Food Express", had to go to the US Supreme Court in order to be allowed to haul dead chickens.
They didn't have a Federal "Certificate" to haul the dead chickens so other competing motor carriers tried to stop them from hauling the birds. FFE argued that the chickens were an ag commodity and therefore exempt from economic regulation. The Supreme Court agreed.
One would hope they had more important things to decide, but I guess not. I'm convinced economic regulation of transport greatly harmed our country and obviously wasted the Supreme Court's time.
OfficeJockey JB Hunt will make this work. We're doing this for a major retailer for now and will be expanding from there. (The common work at the water cooler) We all know it's a fit for the industry. You know that, if any company can, JBHT can pull it off. I'm pumped. The containers are slick too. Inside, you sacrifice only two pallets to make up for the Reefer unit. With them being stackable, it's going to be a thing of beauty. Good read here fellas. You're on the ball for sure.
Before we throw you into the 'briar patch' -
There are a few of us whose work experience was or currently is in the trucking industry, so it's nice to have someone else of similar interest--All of use are interested in the Railroads, and a few of us, their interation with trucking as a side interest.
It is nice to see JB's operations branching out, into a new direction. The new refrigerated containers look very nice. I hope that it works out, it is an untapped area for a major trucking operator. From the one photo of the rear of the unit with a door open; I notices only what appeared to be a three or four foot section of Z-track load security system on the rear sidewall. I would have thougth its use would have been a liittle more generous in the unit. I'm not a real fan of the compression bar security system in trailers to really secure loads ( personal preference)
My big concern is dovetailing refrigerated product handling into the skill set of driver's w ho are primarily used to the dry freight side of how things are done. Most dry freight operators ( on the irregular route side of the business) are in the midrange of company size (5,000 units or less) and they use reefers as a niche service in their operation, or they only use reefers to primarily haul all they move.
I know training within the driver pool will be a Corporate challenge, truck drivers sometimes can be pretty resistant to change their ideas of how things shoud be done.
Any rate, Hope you'll be a frequent visitor and contributor here.
Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it.
edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it.
You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work.
I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.)
I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer.
We're just going to have to see how it plays out.
I apologise for not understanding that you were referring to AG products exclusively. From what I have heard and read about in the past, there were plenty of stupid regulations in the past, and again, I have worked for two different private carriers, not in the common carrier side of the industry, so I haven't had to deal with these issues personally the way the common carriers have/had to.
Edbenton, I do understand what you are talking about in the refrigerated segment of the industry. The first 14 years of my driving career were with a food-service company that supplied Arby's, Arctic Circle, Burger King, Burgerville USA, and Wendy's. If you think straight trailer loads are a challenge, think of the headaches of a three compartment/temperature system, with as many as 14 deliveries on a single load. I DON'T Miss that at all.
Since late Sept, 2002, I have been driving for a manufacturing company, that our plant in Portland produces Foam products, and distributes other mainly mattress and furniture components, from our other plants around the country to customers in our delivery region. I don't think that I have ever been over 55,000 gross, on 5 axles, weekends and holidays OFF, hourly pay w/OT and meals and motels paid on overnight runs, I plan sticking around until retirement.
greyhounds edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it. You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work. I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.) I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer. We're just going to have to see how it plays out.
Greyhounds, I agree with you here about the RailMate concept and how that should be the preferred vehicle. I have to admit that I'm very disappointed that someone (so far, anyway) hasn't had the gumption to give this technology a chance to have its mettle tested. Also, don't know the story behind it but supposedly the person who was "pushing" RailMate was canned from what I heard so that may be another step in the wrong direction.
Hope JB Hunt can make this work.
from: Samfp1943:
"... My big concern is dovetailing refrigerated product handling into the skill set of driver's w ho are primarily used to the dry freight side of how things are done...
...I know training within the driver pool will be a Corporate challenge, truck drivers sometimes can be pretty resistant to change their ideas of how things shoud be done..."
greyhounds" edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it. You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work. I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.) I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer. We're just going to have to see how it plays out.
Greyhounds: I would not to pretend to speak to the appropriate equipment used in the Rail transport side of this refrigerated type of service. I see both refrigerated trailers and reefer containers on the BNSF out here, I never see the net results of the product arrival after the rail transport segment these days.
My experience was dealing with the drivers at conventional trucking operations, and within the recuitment and safety aspects of the same.
Ed Benton is right in all he states, I would suggest that the driver aspect will boil down to training, and more training in the aspects of handling refrigerated products. Each one has its own requirements for handling to achieve good product quality at destination.
The next major hurdle to overcome is the driver personel issues. Recruiting of drivers is an area of personel management that has its own set of challenges , a good recruiter must be smewhat of a Svengali and have the sociological understanding of Dr. Ruth with a combination of understanding and patience of a Saint.
First of all, most driver's are always willing to entertain a potential job change to a new carrier, particularly if that new carrier has a BIG Chrome-Heavy/big sleeper compartment, tractor with an engine approaching the size of a locomotive diesel. That is what the new trucker wants( one with not a lot of road experience). The more seasoned driver is looking for fairly new tractor, preferably an assigned unit, and BENEFITS. They have realized that 'chrome and big motors' can potentially cost THEM wages in the long run. The new guy is still locked up in braggin and ego. Not to mention the ultimate drivers come back to a recruiter " If I had wanted to drive for......., I'd already be working for them."
Companies like Hunt offer a driver, plenty of work, wage stability, and a reasonable benefit package, but there are trade-offs for the driver.( like no assigned units and forced dispatches, etc). The one advantage that a company like Hunt has is the ability to offer a driver training and a knowledge base of information on how to handle different kinds of freight. The las is key to refrigerated ops as will be potential, enroute monitoring of loads by remote sensing (read Qualcom, or equivalent) and instaneous communications with the driver.
The training curve can be steep and expensive, at first. As Ed said, pallets of strawberry's can be pulped in a short trip, as well as other softer fruits and veggies.
One thing for sure, I't will be an interesting ride for those involved, and those of us on the outside, I wish them LUCK.
Buckle your seatbelt, Office Jockey! You and your co-workers are in for a real ride.
One thing for sure
If you only knew how many reefer units JBHT owned you'd withdraw that comment. What you fail to realize is, JB Hunt, has many dedicated refrigerated accounts. You really have no clue. I'm not trying to be snarky but, please research the business before you attempt to decide it's fate.
I think I'll spare you any specifics out of spite. Let's set our calendars to revisit this in six months, then a year and see what you think. My money says we're going to create yet another huge success and you'll eat your words.
Just watch. 2010 won't be anything huge in this area. Come 2011, I really hope you remember this thread and your words.
But...I'll give you this. You're correct in your assessment about drivers and the difference in hauling freight to reefer. Above posters are also correct about it coming down to corporate training, recruiting and more.
But we have all that in place and have had for years. We'll only need small tweaks here and there.
regards
No JB HUNT LOST all their REEFER ACCOUNTS in the LAST 2 YEARS to WERNER and CRETE. Both of which have Dedicated REEFER DIVISIONS. I know all about hauling multiple temp loads try having fresh meat and Frozen on separated with a Bulkhead only. MAN THAT LOAD SUCKED. Maverick is Starting a Reefer Divison HOWEVER they did it the RIGHT WAY Bought out a REEFER CARRIER and are using all the office people to train the DRIVERS and such how to pull reefer. I had a EX JB Hunt Driver that Thought -20 was a GREAT TEMP FOR LETTUCE. Another thought that 50 was perfect for ICE CREAM. Heck even the Training companies for reefers are not much better. Had an Ex England Driver that should of had a CLUE that thought 45 Potato temp was fine for Apples. I pulled my hair out. See it is not just the Trucking Company there is a RR involved here also they need to check the loads also. They do not and your SCREWED. Why do you think most of the Produce and almost all the MEAT moves via TRUCK.
Sure sure. If you say so. Best of luck. you had ONE driver out of eleven thousand. Great odds to base your assessment on.
I won't split hairs with you. Just remember the conversation and put your money where your mouth is.
Office Jockey - A somewhat belated from me.
Good thread - informed debate, if maybe a little too passionate at times . . .
From http://www.jbhunt.com/refrigerated/index.html -
"J.B. Hunt utilizes thousands of refrigerated providers, complemented by over 500 company-owned refrigerated trailers to provide comprehensive solutions for any refrigerated need. With both truckload (TL) and less than truckload (LTL) refrigerated solutions . . . "
I'll be back later, after I've digested the news and websites some more.
- Paul North.
I would think that anyone getting into any kind of business would have a knowledge of that business; would have researched that business; or employed people who know about that business and paid them well and paid attention to what they say. However, too many investors jump into something knowing only that there should be a huge ROI. I've seen doctors, dentists, lawyers, and investment bankers get into broadcasting, canoe building, high end audio equipment, battery manufacturing, restaruants, retail sales, and a few other things. The things all these men and women had in common were: they had lots of money, they wanted lots more money, they didn't want to do any work; they wouldn't listen to the professionals that came with the businesses as to what was done and why; most of them went bankrupt or otherwise lost thier investment taking in less money than their predecessors or selling out for less than they bought it for. Only one sold for more than he paid but never earned money on operating.
So, if a JBH, or any other trucker, gets into refrigerated trucking, there is a 90+% chance it will succeed and a 100% chance will get out of it before they go bankrupt trying. If somebody who just sees the chance to make a buck and doesn't prepare, invest, and learn and adjust quickly, then the chance of success is probably less than 10%.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
There is a LONG RUNNING JOKE IN THE OTR INDUSTRY. How do you make a million in Trucking Start WITH 2 MILLION. 90% of the carriers that start fail in the first 5 years. That is because Trucking is a CUTTHROAT INDUSTRY. YOU HAD BETTER BE ABLE TO DO IT FOR A PENNY LESS A MILE THAN THE NEXT CARRIER OR YOUR GONE. Reefers are even worse. Lose a load of Ice Cream your out a Quarter of a MILLION. A New Reefer Trailer is 40K Unit for it is another 50K then a CARB Certified Tractor is another 150K . Your at 250K BEFORE YOU TURN A WHEEL.
edbenton There is a LONG RUNNING JOKE IN THE OTR INDUSTRY. How do you make a million in Trucking Start WITH 2 MILLION. 90% of the carriers that start fail in the first 5 years. That is because Trucking is a CUTTHROAT INDUSTRY. YOU HAD BETTER BE ABLE TO DO IT FOR A PENNY LESS A MILE THAN THE NEXT CARRIER OR YOUR GONE. Reefers are even worse. Lose a load of Ice Cream your out a Quarter of a MILLION. A New Reefer Trailer is 40K Unit for it is another 50K then a CARB Certified Tractor is another 150K . Your at 250K BEFORE YOU TURN A WHEEL.
I've heard that line in the broadcasting industry and others, too. But you underscore the fact that one better not just be in it because they think its a peachy keen investment but rather they better really know the business.
Yep and anymore JBH is NOT the ones that KNOW IT as well as they used to. See anymore they hire kids out of SCHOOL THAT ALL THEY HAVE DONE IS BOOK LEARNING. THEY HAVE NEVER RUN A WHEEL AND THEY ARE HAVING TROUBLE. See that is why Marten and Schiender and MY last carrier will survive and THRIVE see they only promote older drivers to higher positions and THEY REQUIRE ALL DISPATCHERS TO TAKE A 2 week trip with a driver 2 times a year. Guess what it reminds them why the DRIVER IS THE FRONT LINE.
No, they still have reefer accounts. Also, I don't think they'll have to depend on drivers exclusivly to maintain the temp. They will be able to monitor and adjust as needed via satellite & cell networks from the home office in Lowell AR.
They're supposed to have 100 gal fuel tanks. Anybody know how long a reefer will run on that much fuel?
FYI Fuel Consumption. Depends on many many factors. Lettuce in an Az summer 2 gallons an hour if you don't want melted lettuce(seen it happen to someone else)
Protect from temp extremes (chemicals any variety of other stuff that needs to be kept at roughly room temperature) 2 Gal @ day in moderate temps (if you've set your unit correctly).
The newer Carrier & Thermo King units do much better on fuel than units from the 80's. They can be programmed dependent on what a particular shipper needs.
The thing that makes the units work well is how well the unit can control the temp. The current generation of units have sensors that keep an eye on the ambient temperature(outside air ). And adjust there operation accordingly.
I'm kind of rambling here as last week was a looong week. Chi to MN to Louisiana to Laredo and now on its Monday and I'm in Wi. The Northbound load had a messed up trailer. It came out of Mexico with no lites. Then the unit shutdown yesterday with a clogged fuel screen. And then today the trailer blew a tyre 5 miles from the receiver in front of a Wi State Police Car. Life is fun, Life is fun.
Rgds IGN
samfp1943from: Samfp1943: "... My big concern is dovetailing refrigerated product handling into the skill set of driver's w ho are primarily used to the dry freight side of how things are done... ...I know training within the driver pool will be a Corporate challenge, truck drivers sometimes can be pretty resistant to change their ideas of how things shoud be done..." greyhounds" edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it. You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work. I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.) I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer. We're just going to have to see how it plays out. Greyhounds: I would not to pretend to speak to the appropriate equipment used in the Rail transport side of this refrigerated type of service. I see both refrigerated trailers and reefer containers on the BNSF out here, I never see the net results of the product arrival after the rail transport segment these days. My experience was dealing with the drivers at conventional trucking operations, and within the recuitment and safety aspects of the same. Ed Benton is right in all he states, I would suggest that the driver aspect will boil down to training, and more training in the aspects of handling refrigerated products. Each one has its own requirements for handling to achieve good product quality at destination. The next major hurdle to overcome is the driver personel issues. Recruiting of drivers is an area of personel management that has its own set of challenges , a good recruiter must be smewhat of a Svengali and have the sociological understanding of Dr. Ruth with a combination of understanding and patience of a Saint. First of all, most driver's are always willing to entertain a potential job change to a new carrier, particularly if that new carrier has a BIG Chrome-Heavy/big sleeper compartment, tractor with an engine approaching the size of a locomotive diesel. That is what the new trucker wants( one with not a lot of road experience). The more seasoned driver is looking for fairly new tractor, preferably an assigned unit, and BENEFITS. They have realized that 'chrome and big motors' can potentially cost THEM wages in the long run. The new guy is still locked up in braggin and ego. Not to mention the ultimate drivers come back to a recruiter " If I had wanted to drive for......., I'd already be working for them." Companies like Hunt offer a driver, plenty of work, wage stability, and a reasonable benefit package, but there are trade-offs for the driver.( like no assigned units and forced dispatches, etc). The one advantage that a company like Hunt has is the ability to offer a driver training and a knowledge base of information on how to handle different kinds of freight. The las is key to refrigerated ops as will be potential, enroute monitoring of loads by remote sensing (read Qualcom, or equivalent) and instaneous communications with the driver. The training curve can be steep and expensive, at first. As Ed said, pallets of strawberry's can be pulped in a short trip, as well as other softer fruits and veggies. One thing for sure, I't will be an interesting ride for those involved, and those of us on the outside, I wish them LUCK. Buckle your seatbelt, Office Jockey! You and your co-workers are in for a real ride. One thing for sure
Tell me does someone work for New Century? JB has a fair amount of history with Refridgerated operations. Most of it is doing dedicated accounts. I know a couple of there now senior people in Memphis worked briefly for at my company.
With regards to Chrome loving drivers, I personally would rather have a lighter tractor(I drive a company Freightliner Columbia) than a 379 Pete or VN 770 Volvo. Less worry about shippers trying to put to much weight on. This is especially true when hauling a dry load(No temperature requirement)
samfp1943 from: Samfp1943: Greyhounds: I would not to pretend to speak to the appropriate equipment used in the Rail transport side of this refrigerated type of service. I see both refrigerated trailers and reefer containers on the BNSF out here, I never see the net results of the product arrival after the rail transport segment these days. My experience was dealing with the drivers at conventional trucking operations, and within the recuitment and safety aspects of the same. Ed Benton is right in all he states, I would suggest that the driver aspect will boil down to training, and more training in the aspects of handling refrigerated products. Each one has its own requirements for handling to achieve good product quality at destination. The next major hurdle to overcome is the driver personel issues. Recruiting of drivers is an area of personel management that has its own set of challenges , a good recruiter must be smewhat of a Svengali and have the sociological understanding of Dr. Ruth with a combination of understanding and patience of a Saint. First of all, most driver's are always willing to entertain a potential job change to a new carrier, particularly if that new carrier has a BIG Chrome-Heavy/big sleeper compartment, tractor with an engine approaching the size of a locomotive diesel. That is what the new trucker wants( one with not a lot of road experience). The more seasoned driver is looking for fairly new tractor, preferably an assigned unit, and BENEFITS. They have realized that 'chrome and big motors' can potentially cost THEM wages in the long run. The new guy is still locked up in braggin and ego. Not to mention the ultimate drivers come back to a recruiter " If I had wanted to drive for......., I'd already be working for them." Companies like Hunt offer a driver, plenty of work, wage stability, and a reasonable benefit package, but there are trade-offs for the driver.( like no assigned units and forced dispatches, etc). The one advantage that a company like Hunt has is the ability to offer a driver training and a knowledge base of information on how to handle different kinds of freight. The las is key to refrigerated ops as will be potential, enroute monitoring of loads by remote sensing (read Qualcom, or equivalent) and instaneous communications with the driver. The training curve can be steep and expensive, at first. As Ed said, pallets of strawberry's can be pulped in a short trip, as well as other softer fruits and veggies. One thing for sure, I't will be an interesting ride for those involved, and those of us on the outside, I wish them LUCK. Buckle your seatbelt, Office Jockey! You and your co-workers are in for a real ride. One thing for sure
Oh, I agree that it's going to be a challenge and that knowledgeable, good drivers are a must.
And I agree there will be problems with off condition loads. The difference is that I believe JB Hunt has the ability to handle the problems and develop any additional expertise they need.
But it's no sure thing one way or the other.
PDNJr -- thanks for the JBHunt web-site reference. Cool/chilly/cold/whatever! I didn't think Mrs. Hunt was in the business to lose money. Since seeing my first icecoldexpress 53'ers come thru town last week, I'll be more observant for other refrigerated containers. I don't think I would have noticed those if Amtrak hadn't stabbed the train.
Hays
A couple of comments based on my past industry experience:
1) When talking about driver-related issues, keep in mind this is an intermodal service. Drivers will be doing local or regional pick-up and delivery only. Yes, they still need to be well-educated on all aspects of loading, handling, temperature settings, etc., but you shouldn't need as many of them as for a comparable over-the-road service, since one driver may be able to handle multiple loads per day. Also, this type of work promises somewhat regular hours. In fact, drivers may even be able to count on sleeping in their own bed most nights. I know that Hunt doesn't have the reputation of having the best drivers in the industry, but If wonder if for this particular service they might be able to effectively poach good drivers from long-haul over-the-road reefer carriers who would prefer to stay closer to home?
2) I believe at least part of the problem with KLLM and other earlier container reefer services was the weight and cube issue. Ten years ago, if not today, a stackable container plus chassis weighed more than a trailer. In many cases, the reduced lading weight due to the higher tare offset enough of the intermodal savings to make containers unappealing. Plus, if the container wasn't as wide all the way through as a triailer, you might have to change the loading configuration. Some traffic managers don't like having their load profiles messed with, or managing too many multiples. Does anyone know the tare weight of Hunt's new reefer containers (plus chassis)? Also, how does the interior cube space compare with an over-the-road trailer? I know they have enough experienced intermodal people in their management that it's unlikely they overlooked this.
3) One poster made the statement that "they'll still have to rely on the railroads to check them." Not so. As another poster noted, it's all remote control these days. However, if there's a problem they may need to be serviced enroute. This was always a weakness of intermodal versus truck. Railroads don't perform such services themselves; specialized contractors do that. But Hunt will still have to rely on the railroads to make the units accessible to the contractors. When I was at Santa Fe, contractors checked and serviced all the reefers in situ at Belen, while the trains were stopped for their thousand-mile inspection. It worked really well for TOFC, but access to the reefer units could be a real problem in a doublestack situation. Perhaps they've figured a way around that by now, and if new-generation reefer systems are more reliable, the problem may be approaching irrelevance.
4) Another issue is traffic density. This is actually important for any intermodal operation where draymen and contractors have to be specially-trained to handle specific types of freight and equipment. Reefer intermodal worked on ATSF as long as all the reefers were in transcon service on trains that stopped at Belen. If you'd needed to set up contractors and protocols with local rail ops to handle a small number of reefer shipments at a dozen yards all across the system, good luck. Also, if you're going to get good economic utilization of your specially-trained reefer drivers, you need enough loads at each ramp to keep at least one, if not more, drivers consistently busy through the year. Again, I suspect Hunt has some people who understand this.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out. As part of the original "team Quantum", I wish Hunt well in this venture. Then we can have the debate about reefer intermodal versus reefer boxcars.
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