edbentonIN Ca your looking at a MINIMUM of 200 MILES from the Yards to the reload POINTS not to mention the Customers for the OUTBOUND LOADS. It was nothing to use a FULL DAY UNLOADING AND LOADING IN CALIFORNIA WITH PRODUCE. If your going to Oregon or Washington EVEN WORSE. That stuff is Grown in the Yakima Valley in Washington Closest Container Yard is Seatlle 350 MILES AWAY Portland is about 300 miles from the Fruit and Nursery areas of Oregon. So NOT HAVING A SLEEPER ON THE TRUCKS IS NOT A OPTION. If your Unload in the LA Basin and your Reload is in Yuma 600 MILE ROUND TRIP. THIS PLAN IS NOT GOING TO WORK. PUT IT THIS WAY I STAND A BETTER CHANCE OF GETTING MY CDL BACK WITH EPILEPSY THAT JB HUNT MAKING THIS WORK. Were the stuff ships from changes way to often in the year. Even were Strawberries changes for the winter from Oxnard to up by Salinas. Anyway you cut it they are SCREWED worse than Steam was when the FT came into Production in 1940.
IN Ca your looking at a MINIMUM of 200 MILES from the Yards to the reload POINTS not to mention the Customers for the OUTBOUND LOADS. It was nothing to use a FULL DAY UNLOADING AND LOADING IN CALIFORNIA WITH PRODUCE. If your going to Oregon or Washington EVEN WORSE. That stuff is Grown in the Yakima Valley in Washington Closest Container Yard is Seatlle 350 MILES AWAY Portland is about 300 miles from the Fruit and Nursery areas of Oregon. So NOT HAVING A SLEEPER ON THE TRUCKS IS NOT A OPTION. If your Unload in the LA Basin and your Reload is in Yuma 600 MILE ROUND TRIP. THIS PLAN IS NOT GOING TO WORK. PUT IT THIS WAY I STAND A BETTER CHANCE OF GETTING MY CDL BACK WITH EPILEPSY THAT JB HUNT MAKING THIS WORK. Were the stuff ships from changes way to often in the year. Even were Strawberries changes for the winter from Oxnard to up by Salinas. Anyway you cut it they are SCREWED worse than Steam was when the FT came into Production in 1940.
The Nursery areas in Oregon just outside Forest Grove which is 30 miles to the railyards in Portland. 2 years ago, garden nurseries were using rail in a big way. The problem the rails ran into was on the other end. Most garden/nursery stock loads were multiple stop loads(8-12 stops were not uncommon) with driver to tailgate product at receiver . From what I heard towards the end of the season many of the local drivers(who are owner ops) were refusing to haul them as it involves a lot of work. For those of you who want a description think of a whole bunch of potted plants stacked floor to ceiling front to back. (5 to 8 high 6-15 wide) to total something like 45000lbs of plants. and you have pick these up and move to the back of trailer.
By the way on these loads BNSF local drivers were using day cabs to pick up.
Rgds IGN
MarknLisaFrom what I've heard...the JB reefer containers will be for a dedicated account. They'll be circulating in closed loops between certain shippers & certain recivers. They won't be available for the general reefer market. If the project goes well, then in a year or two they may buy additional containers the general market. Or they may just keep it as a dedicated contract service.
From what I've heard...the JB reefer containers will be for a dedicated account. They'll be circulating in closed loops between certain shippers & certain recivers. They won't be available for the general reefer market. If the project goes well, then in a year or two they may buy additional containers the general market. Or they may just keep it as a dedicated contract service.
edbentonWith were these Containers are going to have to go for Pick ups for Produce and with CVSA 2010 coming INTO EFFECT SLEEPERS WILL BE NEEDED. Here are the locations of Oscar Myer Plants in the Midwest DC in Aurora Plants in Madison WI Davenport IA Columbia MO another in MO 3 in Up State NY DC in PA plant in Fullerton CA DC in City of INdustry CA and Ontario CA and Stockton CA and I know I am missing a few. So your a JB Hunt Reefer Divison Driver you come on duty at 0700 in Chicagowith a load for 0900 Aurora DC YOUR 14 HOUR CLOCK IS RUNNING RIGHT THEN. Make Delivery then are Dispatched to PICK UP IN MADISON 3 Hours away. You have 10 hours drive and 12 hours on your 14 Not an issue however your Container needs a Washout Stop get it cleaned out loose an hour Get to Madison Your load is not ready 5 hour delay AND IT DOES HAPPEN ALL THE TIME. Down to 6 hours left on your 14 and you have a 4 hour drive back to Chicago. You can not Stop your clock since you DO NOT HAVE A SLEEPER AT ALL. Check bak after 4 hours Find out Meat for Production was DELAYED load will be another 4 hours late BETTER GET A HOTEL FOR THE NIGHT NO WAY CAN YOU LEGALLY GET BACK TO TERMINAL. Thius is what can happen on the outbound side hauling anything reefer. That and JB FORGETS ONE THING ALL PRODUCE MOVES IN CALI IN THE SUMMER IT IS IN THE NORTH FALL AND WINTER IT COMES OUT OF YUMA. So they need to realize that hauling CANS WILL NOT WORK. See that is WHAT KILLED THE ICE the Drayage when your hauling trailers 400 miles all over the state geting them loaded your eating your Profit margins. Best to haul a load close to were your going to then head to the Produce houses. Between April to about Late September Salinsas is WERE YOUR HAULING VEGGIES FROM. Late September your around Bakersfield area for a month then it is YUMA til April. I did it for 3 years I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I never had a cargo claim heck I had customers that would only LET ME HAUL THEIR STUFF. Ever been requested to be the rep on a NEW CONTRACT. I was so many times I got SICK OF IT. Try having a load of Strawberries Rasberries on and you have a Evap coil leak. I did took 4 stops for a refil of R22 coming back however Load made it with NO DAMAGE. 28 pallets in perfect shape. They changed the coil out after the load was EMPTY. No JB driver will know how to babysit a load like that or a load of ICE CREAM when it is 120+ in the shade of the Desert to know to wash out the Condensor to help the unit cool better. Internationals are the HEAVIEST truck out there. I Drove OTR a C120 58 inch Midroof Sleeper with a 430 Detroit 10 Alloy wheel that Full tanks all my stuff and my butt in the seat was 15200. With one of our Heaviest trailers I could still yank 48K and not break a sweat. I had that truck on Route 50 in CO in 1999 the week BEFORE THE 4th of July NO JAKES on it either. Had 48K of Sweetcorn on and man I was glad for Top ICE that day. Monarch pass was FUN.
With were these Containers are going to have to go for Pick ups for Produce and with CVSA 2010 coming INTO EFFECT SLEEPERS WILL BE NEEDED. Here are the locations of Oscar Myer Plants in the Midwest DC in Aurora Plants in Madison WI Davenport IA Columbia MO another in MO 3 in Up State NY DC in PA plant in Fullerton CA DC in City of INdustry CA and Ontario CA and Stockton CA and I know I am missing a few. So your a JB Hunt Reefer Divison Driver you come on duty at 0700 in Chicagowith a load for 0900 Aurora DC YOUR 14 HOUR CLOCK IS RUNNING RIGHT THEN. Make Delivery then are Dispatched to PICK UP IN MADISON 3 Hours away. You have 10 hours drive and 12 hours on your 14 Not an issue however your Container needs a Washout Stop get it cleaned out loose an hour Get to Madison Your load is not ready 5 hour delay AND IT DOES HAPPEN ALL THE TIME. Down to 6 hours left on your 14 and you have a 4 hour drive back to Chicago. You can not Stop your clock since you DO NOT HAVE A SLEEPER AT ALL. Check bak after 4 hours Find out Meat for Production was DELAYED load will be another 4 hours late BETTER GET A HOTEL FOR THE NIGHT NO WAY CAN YOU LEGALLY GET BACK TO TERMINAL. Thius is what can happen on the outbound side hauling anything reefer.
That and JB FORGETS ONE THING ALL PRODUCE MOVES IN CALI IN THE SUMMER IT IS IN THE NORTH FALL AND WINTER IT COMES OUT OF YUMA. So they need to realize that hauling CANS WILL NOT WORK. See that is WHAT KILLED THE ICE the Drayage when your hauling trailers 400 miles all over the state geting them loaded your eating your Profit margins. Best to haul a load close to were your going to then head to the Produce houses. Between April to about Late September Salinsas is WERE YOUR HAULING VEGGIES FROM. Late September your around Bakersfield area for a month then it is YUMA til April. I did it for 3 years I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. I never had a cargo claim heck I had customers that would only LET ME HAUL THEIR STUFF. Ever been requested to be the rep on a NEW CONTRACT. I was so many times I got SICK OF IT. Try having a load of Strawberries Rasberries on and you have a Evap coil leak. I did took 4 stops for a refil of R22 coming back however Load made it with NO DAMAGE. 28 pallets in perfect shape. They changed the coil out after the load was EMPTY. No JB driver will know how to babysit a load like that or a load of ICE CREAM when it is 120+ in the shade of the Desert to know to wash out the Condensor to help the unit cool better.
Internationals are the HEAVIEST truck out there. I Drove OTR a C120 58 inch Midroof Sleeper with a 430 Detroit 10 Alloy wheel that Full tanks all my stuff and my butt in the seat was 15200. With one of our Heaviest trailers I could still yank 48K and not break a sweat. I had that truck on Route 50 in CO in 1999 the week BEFORE THE 4th of July NO JAKES on it either. Had 48K of Sweetcorn on and man I was glad for Top ICE that day. Monarch pass was FUN.
Don't forget about Atlanta(Norcross), Ga .
Both Aurora, Il & Haslett, Tx have on site services for washouts.
3.The thing about California is generally when I run out there we have a bunch of things my co. moves out of Los Angeles to N. Ca.(Safeway, Albertsons, Lucky's, Costco etc)
4. Remember the 100 mile rule. Your allowed 18hours from when you clock in, if your local.
5. Salinas is spelled SALINAS, nor salinsas.
6. Try some of the newer Volvos or Peterbilts. The ones my company has (4 of) were 23000Lbs with full fuel or A Freightliner Classic XL 22500Lbs. (my co got these for their Million Milers and every driver who had one hated them for the weight)
I'm rambling again. time to go.
edbenton The ICC was NEVER THE ISSUE
The ICC was NEVER THE ISSUE
I'm convinced, for previously stated reasons, that you are greatly in error with regards to this statement.
edbenton Portland is about 300 miles from the Fruit and Nursery areas of Oregon.
Your distances in Oregon are a bit high. Although some of the fruit and berry areas are up to 290 miles from Portland (Bandon and Medford), others are 50 -180 miles away all down the 5 in the Willamette Valley from Salem to well south of Eugene.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Reason I said Seatlle is SIMPLE THAT IS WERE THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE LIVE. You build a warehouse for FOOD were the PEOPLE LIVE. You GROW FOOD WERE THERE IS SPACE yes there may be a terminal 30 or so miles away however JB HUNTS Nearest TERMINAL IS SEATLLE not were you WANT IT. See that is the sticky point JB is the carrier and they need the trucks were the containers are going to be UNLOADED from the trains. Chassis need Repairs so do TRUCKS and the REEFER UNITS all that is EXPENSIVE IF NOT DONE IN HOUSE. A tire done as a Service call will set you back 700-800 bucks by the time all is said and done SAME TIRE in your own shop 400 or LESS. Who has that much cash to WASTE on Mileage or Shop labor time most carriers DO NOT. When dealing with a margin of 1 to 2 CENTS a MILE ANY AND ALL EXPENSES YOU CAN CUT YOU DO IT. That is why I see this as a VERY EXPENSIVE MISTAKE. IF THERE WAS MONEY TO BE MADE IN INTERMODAL REEFER ENGLAND PRIME AND FFE SURE AS HELL WOULD BE DOING IT. Most of their trailers you see on the cars now I asked a few buddies see it helps to have FRIENDS THAT WORK FOR THEM see they are EMPTIES BEING MOVED TO WERE THEIR ARE LOADS. The only carrier that has a Intermodal division is England and they are LOSING THEIR BUTTS ON IT. IF NOT FOR MCDONALDS FRENCH FRIES THEY WOULD NOT EVEN BE DOING IT AT ALL.
Sure build a Intermodal Terminal at Yuma that will sit UNUSED for 7 MONTHS A YEAR for 50 MILLION BUCKS. UP will get right on it. Same in Salinsas. Look at the EMPTY Mileage the UP racks up on the reefers on that Solid Reefer train for UPSTATE NY. Loads in EMPTIES back and they are less than 4 hours away from NYC and close to 4 plants of Kraft Foods 2 for Carriage HOUSE foods and a whole bunch of OTHERS are in the AREA. Why because JUST ABOUT NO ONE WANTS TO USE THE RAILROADS FOR FRESH FOOD ANYMORE. The ICC was NEVER THE ISSUE the Trucks saw a market got it and have sold a service to the point the ALL MIGHTY RAILROADS ARE GOING WE SCREWED UP.
edbenton IN Ca your looking at a MINIMUM of 200 MILES from the Yards to the reload POINTS not to mention the Customers for the OUTBOUND LOADS. It was nothing to use a FULL DAY UNLOADING AND LOADING IN CALIFORNIA WITH PRODUCE. If your going to Oregon or Washington EVEN WORSE. That stuff is Grown in the Yakima Valley in Washington Closest Container Yard is Seatlle 350 MILES AWAY Portland is about 300 miles from the Fruit and Nursery areas of Oregon. So NOT HAVING A SLEEPER ON THE TRUCKS IS NOT A OPTION. If your Unload in the LA Basin and your Reload is in Yuma 600 MILE ROUND TRIP. THIS PLAN IS NOT GOING TO WORK. PUT IT THIS WAY I STAND A BETTER CHANCE OF GETTING MY CDL BACK WITH EPILEPSY THAT JB HUNT MAKING THIS WORK. Were the stuff ships from changes way to often in the year. Even were Strawberries changes for the winter from Oxnard to up by Salinas. Anyway you cut it they are SCREWED worse than Steam was when the FT came into Production in 1940.
But, there's nothing to stop the contstruction of intermodal terminals at Yakima or Yuma - if the money's right. (One of the reasons I favor RoadRailer/RailMate equipment for this service over containers is the ease and low expense of their terminals vis a vis the cost of a container terminal.)
Given the high volumes of this business - I believe the money will be "right" in many cases. The railroad will have to move the empty IM equipment from the unloading terminal to the loading terminal. But so what, the trucker has to basically make that move too. And the railroad can do it a lot cheaper than the trucker can. (The trucker, of course, won't go through a terminal.)
As to Washington, I dispute the distances. The closest container terminal to Yakima is Quincy, WA. A mere 82 miles from Yakima, not 350. Significant production is centered around Wenatchee and Moses Lake which are only 32 and 37 miles respectfully from Quincy. No sleepers required.
MarknLisa From what I've heard...the JB reefer containers will be for a dedicated account. They'll be circulating in closed loops between certain shippers & certain recivers. They won't be available for the general reefer market. If the project goes well, then in a year or two they may buy additional containers the general market. Or they may just keep it as a dedicated contract service.
That sounds like a sensible approach to entering the market.
One "report" I read was that they were acquiring 2,500 reefer containers. This would be about a $125 million investment. It seems a little drastic for a first step and I question its credibility. Better to get your feet wet in shallow water and not take too much of a risk.
A hope is that JB Hunt will be successful and that other carriers will also begin to acquire equipment for intermodal temperature controlled services in order to compete with JB. Some reefer carriers do buy "Rail Spec" trailers now. But double stack has a tremendous cost advantage over TOFC on the long haul west coast routes.
greyhoundsI will point out that although the container/chassis combination will weigh more than a trailer, the tractors used for intermodal service can weigh less. For starters, they don't need to carry as much fuel, which is heavy, and they can be day cabs instead of sleepers. The gross weight limit is 80,000 pounds. Using a container/chassis combo eats of more of that in tare than a trailer, but you can get weight back by using a lighter tractor than over the road operations.
I will point out that although the container/chassis combination will weigh more than a trailer, the tractors used for intermodal service can weigh less. For starters, they don't need to carry as much fuel, which is heavy, and they can be day cabs instead of sleepers.
The gross weight limit is 80,000 pounds. Using a container/chassis combo eats of more of that in tare than a trailer, but you can get weight back by using a lighter tractor than over the road operations.
A very interesting discussion. It sounds like a real breakthrough with a chance to get a lot of the long haul off the roads. I take it this truly will be intermodal, with most of the haul on the rails, and short road hauls from the end hubs? How short, ideally?
The three trucking companies i see here riding NS rails are Lisa motor lines/Stevens transport and FEE all reefer trailers and they are others as well,when i go out watching again will try to remember the names.Back in the day when Carolina Freight was around they had a few reefers and seen a many rideing piggyback on Seaboard Coast Line.
Russell
Ed:
Yep, that 14-hour rule makes life very interesting, especially with tight deadlines. Just squeaked one in last week, getting out of Sam Adams in Cincy and going to our Hamilton yard, because one would be taking his life into one's own hands sleeping next to the brewery. Electronic logs may take this option away, though. (no cheating!)
With the exception of keg beer, Coors does not need to be refrigerated anymore, ran a load down to Knoxville last friday in a dry van. Agree on IH trucks being very heavy, along with certain KWs (my T2000 with a 53' Great Dane dry van is about 33,400 with full tanks, we have T660s that are about 1500lbs lighter)
The next two years will be interesting times in the trucking industry.....
Randy Vos
"Ever have one of those days where you couldn't hit the ground with your hat??" - Waylon Jennings
"May the Lord take a liking to you and blow you up, real good" - SCTV
Am I reading here that old fashioned block iced refrigerator cars were more efficient and safer for the product than mechanical refrigeration? That we should go back to icing stations? I find it hard to believe that today's technology is so bad and deficient that nobody can successfully operate it nor get through the desert without it breaking down!
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
edbenton Even WITH Remote Montoring that UNIT BREAKS DOWN IN THE DESERT WITH A FROZEN LOAD YOUR SCREWED, Why by the time you get the message to the RR to stop the train so a Maintance guy can look at this container your done. You also mentioned Tare weight. IT WILL STILL BE HEAVIER There is NO WAY TO MAKE A SEPARATE CONTAINER AND CHASSIS LIGHTER THAT WILL HOLD UP TO RR SERVICE THAT IS STACKABLE. Shippers pay you in Reefers normally by how much you can STUFF ON THERE so if can only haul 43K say while the carrier next to you can haul 46K guess who will get the LOAD. Sorry my last carrier FIRED OWNER OPS FOR TRUCKS THAT WERE TO HEAVY INCLUDING THE 1ST DRIVER EVER AT THE COMPANY. Their contract stated that their truck could weigh NO MORE than 17500 FULL OF FUEL. HIS EMPTY WEIGHED IN AT 18000.
Even WITH Remote Montoring that UNIT BREAKS DOWN IN THE DESERT WITH A FROZEN LOAD YOUR SCREWED, Why by the time you get the message to the RR to stop the train so a Maintance guy can look at this container your done. You also mentioned Tare weight. IT WILL STILL BE HEAVIER There is NO WAY TO MAKE A SEPARATE CONTAINER AND CHASSIS LIGHTER THAT WILL HOLD UP TO RR SERVICE THAT IS STACKABLE. Shippers pay you in Reefers normally by how much you can STUFF ON THERE so if can only haul 43K say while the carrier next to you can haul 46K guess who will get the LOAD. Sorry my last carrier FIRED OWNER OPS FOR TRUCKS THAT WERE TO HEAVY INCLUDING THE 1ST DRIVER EVER AT THE COMPANY. Their contract stated that their truck could weigh NO MORE than 17500 FULL OF FUEL. HIS EMPTY WEIGHED IN AT 18000.
We had International 8600s at 15,100 pounds full of fuel without even trying hard to spec 'em out for light weight.
Even WITH Remote Montoring that UNIT BREAKS DOWN IN THE DESERT WITH A FROZEN LOAD YOUR SCREWED, Why by the time you get the message to the RR to stop the train so a Maintance guy can look at this container your done. You also mentioned Tare weight. IT WILL STILL BE HEAVIER There is NO WAY TO MAKE A SEPARATE CONTAINER AND CHASSIS LIGHTER THAT WILL HOLD UP TO RR SERVICE THAT IS STACKABLE. Shippers pay you in Reefers normally by how much you can STUFF ON THERE so if can only haul 43K say while the carrier next to you can haul 46K guess who will get the LOAD. Sorry my last carrier FIRED OWNER OPS FOR TRUCKS THAT WERE TO HEAVY INCLUDING THE 1ST DRIVER EVER AT THE COMPANY. Their contract stated that their truck could weigh NO MORE than 17500 FULL OF FUEL. HIS EMPTY WEIGHED IN AT 18000. You want to KNOW WHO JB'S LAST REEFER LOADS ARE FOR I can tell you I asked a local Jb Driver I am Friends with Coors BEER THATS IT. They service the VA Brewery on a DEDICATED CONTRACT FOR THEM ONE TEMP UNITS TURN ON AND THAT IS IT. I Told him about the new Reefer containers he is in the Intermodal and he goes OH CRAP something ELSE FOR THEM TO SCREW UP. This is coming from one of their Drivers.
JB Hunt Tried Flatbed in the 90's and FAILED BIG TIME TO THE POINT IT ALMOST COLLASPED THE ENTIRE COMPANY. They Spun them off to avoid killing the VAN SIDE. I give this less than a year before it FOLDS for one reason they DO NOT KNOW THIS SIDE OF THE INDUSTRY. Produce and Fresh Meat or even Prepared Meat is a Differant ANIMAL than something that requires TEMP CONTROL. IF YOU GET IT TO HOT with the NEW USDA Regs in the Pipeline and someone gets sick IT IS NOT THE GROWER OR MANUFACTOR THAT GETS HIT IT IS THE CARRIER that HAULED IT.
A couple of comments based on my past industry experience:
1) When talking about driver-related issues, keep in mind this is an intermodal service. Drivers will be doing local or regional pick-up and delivery only. Yes, they still need to be well-educated on all aspects of loading, handling, temperature settings, etc., but you shouldn't need as many of them as for a comparable over-the-road service, since one driver may be able to handle multiple loads per day. Also, this type of work promises somewhat regular hours. In fact, drivers may even be able to count on sleeping in their own bed most nights. I know that Hunt doesn't have the reputation of having the best drivers in the industry, but If wonder if for this particular service they might be able to effectively poach good drivers from long-haul over-the-road reefer carriers who would prefer to stay closer to home?
2) I believe at least part of the problem with KLLM and other earlier container reefer services was the weight and cube issue. Ten years ago, if not today, a stackable container plus chassis weighed more than a trailer. In many cases, the reduced lading weight due to the higher tare offset enough of the intermodal savings to make containers unappealing. Plus, if the container wasn't as wide all the way through as a triailer, you might have to change the loading configuration. Some traffic managers don't like having their load profiles messed with, or managing too many multiples. Does anyone know the tare weight of Hunt's new reefer containers (plus chassis)? Also, how does the interior cube space compare with an over-the-road trailer? I know they have enough experienced intermodal people in their management that it's unlikely they overlooked this.
3) One poster made the statement that "they'll still have to rely on the railroads to check them." Not so. As another poster noted, it's all remote control these days. However, if there's a problem they may need to be serviced enroute. This was always a weakness of intermodal versus truck. Railroads don't perform such services themselves; specialized contractors do that. But Hunt will still have to rely on the railroads to make the units accessible to the contractors. When I was at Santa Fe, contractors checked and serviced all the reefers in situ at Belen, while the trains were stopped for their thousand-mile inspection. It worked really well for TOFC, but access to the reefer units could be a real problem in a doublestack situation. Perhaps they've figured a way around that by now, and if new-generation reefer systems are more reliable, the problem may be approaching irrelevance.
4) Another issue is traffic density. This is actually important for any intermodal operation where draymen and contractors have to be specially-trained to handle specific types of freight and equipment. Reefer intermodal worked on ATSF as long as all the reefers were in transcon service on trains that stopped at Belen. If you'd needed to set up contractors and protocols with local rail ops to handle a small number of reefer shipments at a dozen yards all across the system, good luck. Also, if you're going to get good economic utilization of your specially-trained reefer drivers, you need enough loads at each ramp to keep at least one, if not more, drivers consistently busy through the year. Again, I suspect Hunt has some people who understand this.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out. As part of the original "team Quantum", I wish Hunt well in this venture. Then we can have the debate about reefer intermodal versus reefer boxcars.
PDNJr -- thanks for the JBHunt web-site reference. Cool/chilly/cold/whatever! I didn't think Mrs. Hunt was in the business to lose money. Since seeing my first icecoldexpress 53'ers come thru town last week, I'll be more observant for other refrigerated containers. I don't think I would have noticed those if Amtrak hadn't stabbed the train.
Hays
samfp1943 from: Samfp1943: Greyhounds: I would not to pretend to speak to the appropriate equipment used in the Rail transport side of this refrigerated type of service. I see both refrigerated trailers and reefer containers on the BNSF out here, I never see the net results of the product arrival after the rail transport segment these days. My experience was dealing with the drivers at conventional trucking operations, and within the recuitment and safety aspects of the same. Ed Benton is right in all he states, I would suggest that the driver aspect will boil down to training, and more training in the aspects of handling refrigerated products. Each one has its own requirements for handling to achieve good product quality at destination. The next major hurdle to overcome is the driver personel issues. Recruiting of drivers is an area of personel management that has its own set of challenges , a good recruiter must be smewhat of a Svengali and have the sociological understanding of Dr. Ruth with a combination of understanding and patience of a Saint. First of all, most driver's are always willing to entertain a potential job change to a new carrier, particularly if that new carrier has a BIG Chrome-Heavy/big sleeper compartment, tractor with an engine approaching the size of a locomotive diesel. That is what the new trucker wants( one with not a lot of road experience). The more seasoned driver is looking for fairly new tractor, preferably an assigned unit, and BENEFITS. They have realized that 'chrome and big motors' can potentially cost THEM wages in the long run. The new guy is still locked up in braggin and ego. Not to mention the ultimate drivers come back to a recruiter " If I had wanted to drive for......., I'd already be working for them." Companies like Hunt offer a driver, plenty of work, wage stability, and a reasonable benefit package, but there are trade-offs for the driver.( like no assigned units and forced dispatches, etc). The one advantage that a company like Hunt has is the ability to offer a driver training and a knowledge base of information on how to handle different kinds of freight. The las is key to refrigerated ops as will be potential, enroute monitoring of loads by remote sensing (read Qualcom, or equivalent) and instaneous communications with the driver. The training curve can be steep and expensive, at first. As Ed said, pallets of strawberry's can be pulped in a short trip, as well as other softer fruits and veggies. One thing for sure, I't will be an interesting ride for those involved, and those of us on the outside, I wish them LUCK. Buckle your seatbelt, Office Jockey! You and your co-workers are in for a real ride. One thing for sure
from: Samfp1943:
Greyhounds: I would not to pretend to speak to the appropriate equipment used in the Rail transport side of this refrigerated type of service. I see both refrigerated trailers and reefer containers on the BNSF out here, I never see the net results of the product arrival after the rail transport segment these days.
My experience was dealing with the drivers at conventional trucking operations, and within the recuitment and safety aspects of the same.
Ed Benton is right in all he states, I would suggest that the driver aspect will boil down to training, and more training in the aspects of handling refrigerated products. Each one has its own requirements for handling to achieve good product quality at destination.
The next major hurdle to overcome is the driver personel issues. Recruiting of drivers is an area of personel management that has its own set of challenges , a good recruiter must be smewhat of a Svengali and have the sociological understanding of Dr. Ruth with a combination of understanding and patience of a Saint.
First of all, most driver's are always willing to entertain a potential job change to a new carrier, particularly if that new carrier has a BIG Chrome-Heavy/big sleeper compartment, tractor with an engine approaching the size of a locomotive diesel. That is what the new trucker wants( one with not a lot of road experience). The more seasoned driver is looking for fairly new tractor, preferably an assigned unit, and BENEFITS. They have realized that 'chrome and big motors' can potentially cost THEM wages in the long run. The new guy is still locked up in braggin and ego. Not to mention the ultimate drivers come back to a recruiter " If I had wanted to drive for......., I'd already be working for them."
Companies like Hunt offer a driver, plenty of work, wage stability, and a reasonable benefit package, but there are trade-offs for the driver.( like no assigned units and forced dispatches, etc). The one advantage that a company like Hunt has is the ability to offer a driver training and a knowledge base of information on how to handle different kinds of freight. The las is key to refrigerated ops as will be potential, enroute monitoring of loads by remote sensing (read Qualcom, or equivalent) and instaneous communications with the driver.
The training curve can be steep and expensive, at first. As Ed said, pallets of strawberry's can be pulped in a short trip, as well as other softer fruits and veggies.
One thing for sure, I't will be an interesting ride for those involved, and those of us on the outside, I wish them LUCK.
Buckle your seatbelt, Office Jockey! You and your co-workers are in for a real ride.
One thing for sure
Oh, I agree that it's going to be a challenge and that knowledgeable, good drivers are a must.
And I agree there will be problems with off condition loads. The difference is that I believe JB Hunt has the ability to handle the problems and develop any additional expertise they need.
But it's no sure thing one way or the other.
samfp1943from: Samfp1943: "... My big concern is dovetailing refrigerated product handling into the skill set of driver's w ho are primarily used to the dry freight side of how things are done... ...I know training within the driver pool will be a Corporate challenge, truck drivers sometimes can be pretty resistant to change their ideas of how things shoud be done..." greyhounds" edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it. You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work. I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.) I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer. We're just going to have to see how it plays out. Greyhounds: I would not to pretend to speak to the appropriate equipment used in the Rail transport side of this refrigerated type of service. I see both refrigerated trailers and reefer containers on the BNSF out here, I never see the net results of the product arrival after the rail transport segment these days. My experience was dealing with the drivers at conventional trucking operations, and within the recuitment and safety aspects of the same. Ed Benton is right in all he states, I would suggest that the driver aspect will boil down to training, and more training in the aspects of handling refrigerated products. Each one has its own requirements for handling to achieve good product quality at destination. The next major hurdle to overcome is the driver personel issues. Recruiting of drivers is an area of personel management that has its own set of challenges , a good recruiter must be smewhat of a Svengali and have the sociological understanding of Dr. Ruth with a combination of understanding and patience of a Saint. First of all, most driver's are always willing to entertain a potential job change to a new carrier, particularly if that new carrier has a BIG Chrome-Heavy/big sleeper compartment, tractor with an engine approaching the size of a locomotive diesel. That is what the new trucker wants( one with not a lot of road experience). The more seasoned driver is looking for fairly new tractor, preferably an assigned unit, and BENEFITS. They have realized that 'chrome and big motors' can potentially cost THEM wages in the long run. The new guy is still locked up in braggin and ego. Not to mention the ultimate drivers come back to a recruiter " If I had wanted to drive for......., I'd already be working for them." Companies like Hunt offer a driver, plenty of work, wage stability, and a reasonable benefit package, but there are trade-offs for the driver.( like no assigned units and forced dispatches, etc). The one advantage that a company like Hunt has is the ability to offer a driver training and a knowledge base of information on how to handle different kinds of freight. The las is key to refrigerated ops as will be potential, enroute monitoring of loads by remote sensing (read Qualcom, or equivalent) and instaneous communications with the driver. The training curve can be steep and expensive, at first. As Ed said, pallets of strawberry's can be pulped in a short trip, as well as other softer fruits and veggies. One thing for sure, I't will be an interesting ride for those involved, and those of us on the outside, I wish them LUCK. Buckle your seatbelt, Office Jockey! You and your co-workers are in for a real ride. One thing for sure
"... My big concern is dovetailing refrigerated product handling into the skill set of driver's w ho are primarily used to the dry freight side of how things are done...
...I know training within the driver pool will be a Corporate challenge, truck drivers sometimes can be pretty resistant to change their ideas of how things shoud be done..."
greyhounds" edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it. You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work. I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.) I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer. We're just going to have to see how it plays out.
edbenton Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it.
Greyhounds I hate to tell you this BUT JBHT will FAIL in this venture for one reason. Their Drivers are NOT USED TO PULLING REEFERS. Pulling a reefer trailer is a different animal. Put it to you this ay it is like going from owning a Goldfish (Dry Van) and thinking you can keep a Coral Reef System alive (Reefer Trailers). My last Carrier I drove for if you had NO REEFER EXPERIANCE when you hired in you SPENT ONE MONTH WITH A TRAINER to get to know all the IN'S AND OUTS of reefer Freight. See what is the temp of one thing WILL NOT WORK FOR ANOTHER. Also different things react differantly to how they are handled. Smash Strawberries and you end up with MUSH same with Apricots Rasberries and Blueberries. Yet Celery you can beat that to death. So you see there is a fine line on how you treat it.
You could be right Ed. This whole thing could be a bust. KLLM tried it before and couldn't/didn't make it work.
I know about the different temps (Chiquita Bananas go at 58 degrees.)
I don't think the problem will be the drivers. Hunt can just hire carriers/drivers/supervisors/OO's that have temp controlled experience. I think the container is the wrong vehicle for the job. After working on this for over a year I came to the conclusion, hotly disputed by my partner, that the right rail vehicle was a RoadRailer/RailMate trailer.
We're just going to have to see how it plays out.
Tell me does someone work for New Century? JB has a fair amount of history with Refridgerated operations. Most of it is doing dedicated accounts. I know a couple of there now senior people in Memphis worked briefly for at my company.
With regards to Chrome loving drivers, I personally would rather have a lighter tractor(I drive a company Freightliner Columbia) than a 379 Pete or VN 770 Volvo. Less worry about shippers trying to put to much weight on. This is especially true when hauling a dry load(No temperature requirement)
FYI Fuel Consumption. Depends on many many factors. Lettuce in an Az summer 2 gallons an hour if you don't want melted lettuce(seen it happen to someone else)
Protect from temp extremes (chemicals any variety of other stuff that needs to be kept at roughly room temperature) 2 Gal @ day in moderate temps (if you've set your unit correctly).
The newer Carrier & Thermo King units do much better on fuel than units from the 80's. They can be programmed dependent on what a particular shipper needs.
The thing that makes the units work well is how well the unit can control the temp. The current generation of units have sensors that keep an eye on the ambient temperature(outside air ). And adjust there operation accordingly.
I'm kind of rambling here as last week was a looong week. Chi to MN to Louisiana to Laredo and now on its Monday and I'm in Wi. The Northbound load had a messed up trailer. It came out of Mexico with no lites. Then the unit shutdown yesterday with a clogged fuel screen. And then today the trailer blew a tyre 5 miles from the receiver in front of a Wi State Police Car. Life is fun, Life is fun.
No, they still have reefer accounts. Also, I don't think they'll have to depend on drivers exclusivly to maintain the temp. They will be able to monitor and adjust as needed via satellite & cell networks from the home office in Lowell AR.
They're supposed to have 100 gal fuel tanks. Anybody know how long a reefer will run on that much fuel?
Yep and anymore JBH is NOT the ones that KNOW IT as well as they used to. See anymore they hire kids out of SCHOOL THAT ALL THEY HAVE DONE IS BOOK LEARNING. THEY HAVE NEVER RUN A WHEEL AND THEY ARE HAVING TROUBLE. See that is why Marten and Schiender and MY last carrier will survive and THRIVE see they only promote older drivers to higher positions and THEY REQUIRE ALL DISPATCHERS TO TAKE A 2 week trip with a driver 2 times a year. Guess what it reminds them why the DRIVER IS THE FRONT LINE.
edbenton There is a LONG RUNNING JOKE IN THE OTR INDUSTRY. How do you make a million in Trucking Start WITH 2 MILLION. 90% of the carriers that start fail in the first 5 years. That is because Trucking is a CUTTHROAT INDUSTRY. YOU HAD BETTER BE ABLE TO DO IT FOR A PENNY LESS A MILE THAN THE NEXT CARRIER OR YOUR GONE. Reefers are even worse. Lose a load of Ice Cream your out a Quarter of a MILLION. A New Reefer Trailer is 40K Unit for it is another 50K then a CARB Certified Tractor is another 150K . Your at 250K BEFORE YOU TURN A WHEEL.
There is a LONG RUNNING JOKE IN THE OTR INDUSTRY. How do you make a million in Trucking Start WITH 2 MILLION. 90% of the carriers that start fail in the first 5 years. That is because Trucking is a CUTTHROAT INDUSTRY. YOU HAD BETTER BE ABLE TO DO IT FOR A PENNY LESS A MILE THAN THE NEXT CARRIER OR YOUR GONE. Reefers are even worse. Lose a load of Ice Cream your out a Quarter of a MILLION. A New Reefer Trailer is 40K Unit for it is another 50K then a CARB Certified Tractor is another 150K . Your at 250K BEFORE YOU TURN A WHEEL.
I've heard that line in the broadcasting industry and others, too. But you underscore the fact that one better not just be in it because they think its a peachy keen investment but rather they better really know the business.
I would think that anyone getting into any kind of business would have a knowledge of that business; would have researched that business; or employed people who know about that business and paid them well and paid attention to what they say. However, too many investors jump into something knowing only that there should be a huge ROI. I've seen doctors, dentists, lawyers, and investment bankers get into broadcasting, canoe building, high end audio equipment, battery manufacturing, restaruants, retail sales, and a few other things. The things all these men and women had in common were: they had lots of money, they wanted lots more money, they didn't want to do any work; they wouldn't listen to the professionals that came with the businesses as to what was done and why; most of them went bankrupt or otherwise lost thier investment taking in less money than their predecessors or selling out for less than they bought it for. Only one sold for more than he paid but never earned money on operating.
So, if a JBH, or any other trucker, gets into refrigerated trucking, there is a 90+% chance it will succeed and a 100% chance will get out of it before they go bankrupt trying. If somebody who just sees the chance to make a buck and doesn't prepare, invest, and learn and adjust quickly, then the chance of success is probably less than 10%.
Office Jockey - A somewhat belated from me.
Good thread - informed debate, if maybe a little too passionate at times . . .
From http://www.jbhunt.com/refrigerated/index.html -
"J.B. Hunt utilizes thousands of refrigerated providers, complemented by over 500 company-owned refrigerated trailers to provide comprehensive solutions for any refrigerated need. With both truckload (TL) and less than truckload (LTL) refrigerated solutions . . . "
I'll be back later, after I've digested the news and websites some more.
- Paul North.
Sure sure. If you say so. Best of luck. you had ONE driver out of eleven thousand. Great odds to base your assessment on.
I won't split hairs with you. Just remember the conversation and put your money where your mouth is.
No JB HUNT LOST all their REEFER ACCOUNTS in the LAST 2 YEARS to WERNER and CRETE. Both of which have Dedicated REEFER DIVISIONS. I know all about hauling multiple temp loads try having fresh meat and Frozen on separated with a Bulkhead only. MAN THAT LOAD SUCKED. Maverick is Starting a Reefer Divison HOWEVER they did it the RIGHT WAY Bought out a REEFER CARRIER and are using all the office people to train the DRIVERS and such how to pull reefer. I had a EX JB Hunt Driver that Thought -20 was a GREAT TEMP FOR LETTUCE. Another thought that 50 was perfect for ICE CREAM. Heck even the Training companies for reefers are not much better. Had an Ex England Driver that should of had a CLUE that thought 45 Potato temp was fine for Apples. I pulled my hair out. See it is not just the Trucking Company there is a RR involved here also they need to check the loads also. They do not and your SCREWED. Why do you think most of the Produce and almost all the MEAT moves via TRUCK.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.