Stick with me for a moment. There's a 57% chance you'll see the relevence.
I'm reading a book Introvert Power by Laurie Helgoe, PhD. The mor I read, the more this forum comes into focus.
She suggests, that the internet is the perfect medium for (us) introverts. See if any of this sounds familiar:
We can read and write rather than talk.
We can more comfortably network with people who share our interests and ideas.
We can take the time to think about something, before having to reply.
We can determine our own comfort zone, and come and go as we please.
We are not afraid to simply observe.
We like to read. We like things that take us away to somewhere else,like romance novels, science fiction, trains, WW I battleships. (<OK just me.)
We like our get-away time, to peruse something away from the hustle & bustle. Trains, for example.
We can find ourselves deeply involved in things others may find trivial.(See any thread about tractive effort, for example.)
We're known to have a dry/odd/weird sense of humor. Maybe we ponder too much.
We make up 57% of the population of North America.
Can anybody relate to this?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I dunno. I feel I am more extroverted and would be out working or actually riding trains if time and money permitted...and doing it with friends, not by myself. And I feel that the internet broadens by base of access to information and communicating with people from different places and not just inthe neighborhood. That being said, I see where she is coming from and she may be pretty much on target.
Years ago a friend explained the difference between modelers and other railfans in about the same terminoligy. Modelers, he explained, shunned society, weren't social too much, were more introverted into thier own train rooms, less athletic and cometitive than those of us who grouped together in the outdoors to chase trains and take pictures and socialize in groups at meetings, etc.
RIDEWITHMEHENRY is the name for our almost monthly day of riding trains and transit in either the NYCity or Philadelphia areas including all commuter lines, Amtrak, subways, light rail and trolleys, bus and ferries when warranted. No fees, just let us know you want to join the ride and pay your fares. Ask to be on our email list or find us on FB as RIDEWITHMEHENRY (all caps) to get descriptions of each outing.
I would peg myself around 70% introverted. While I don't mind large groups or crowds, I do enjoy spending time by myself and with a few close friends. Many of my hobbies are introverted (photography, railfanning, and model railroading) although I would not call myself a social recluse and do enjoy spending time with other people, although smaller groups are always preferred.
When railfanning, I'm always by myself, camera in hand, standing next to camcorder on tripod...
To your original observations on internet communications, I agree completely. I always prefer email over other forms of conversation, because I'm confident in my writing skills and feel that I can express myself well and have time to organize my thoughts. And yes, I do enjoy reading and getting away from it all for a while. Whenever I go somewhere and get back by day, within a few minutes I'll be here, checking out the latest in railroading news and whetting my appetite for railroad-related material.
Murphy Siding We can read and write rather than talk.
Gee, you want me to autograph that biography?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Besides everything else said, you can stop listening (with your eyes) with just a mouse click!
Ed
spokyone Murphy Siding We can read and write rather than talk. I believe you excell at all three.
Hey Murphy - How'd you get that out of my personnel file ?!?
You keep reading stuff like that, we'll have to throw you outta here !!!
Actually, you beat me to it - that's a thread topic I've had in mind for a while. Except that I was going to frame it around the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator ("MBTI") or "personality type", which is based on the following 4 scales and dichotomies (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator ):
Extraversion <====> Introversion (E or/ vs. I)
Sensing <====> INtuition (S or/ vs. N)
Thinking <====> Feeling (T or/ vs. F)
Judging <====> Perceiving (J or/ vs. P)
My wife and her study group prefers to analyze such things with the "9 types" of the "Enneagram of Personality". See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enneagram_of_Personality and http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/ and http://www.9types.com , etc.
Then there's always horoscopes, ouija boards, voodoo, . . .
- Paul North. (an MBTI "INTJ" - 2.1 %).
Paul_D_North_Jr Hey Murphy - How'd you get that out of my personnel file ?!? You keep reading stuff like that, we'll have to throw you outta here !!! Actually, you beat me to it - that's a thread topic I've had in mind for a while. Except that I was going to frame it around the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator ("MBTI") or "personality type", which is based on the following 4 scales and dichotomies (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator ): Extraversion <====> Introversion (E or/ vs. I) Sensing <====> INtuition (S or/ vs. N) Thinking <====> Feeling (T or/ vs. F) Judging <====> Perceiving (J or/ vs. P) - Paul North. (an MBTI "INTJ" - 2.1 %).
I contributed to another forum (a recent start-up modeling forum) on the question, "Does your layout reflect your personality?". This was my first reply:
"I don't know that I can adequately answer the question. The most robust personality theory is called the "Trait Theory" and has been refined in recent years to what we call the "Big Five" traits (conscientiousness, agreeableness, extraversion, neuroticism, and openness). I guess an observer would point out parts of my layout that indicate a root in any one of these. I don't know that conscientiousness applies to me greatly because I frotolance (not much fidelity there!). I don't have to agree with a single person about my layout, except for She Who Must be Obeyed (what else is new.) I am an introvert mostly, and have to work at appearing to be extraverted. My introversion suits me nicely because I can be, as always, my own best friend (does that sound pathetic? I have never thought so...I am a very healthy and contented soul who can be alone for extended periods.). I would have to say that I am not at all neurotic. I have been a successful leader, soldier, teacher, husband, and father to three grown daughters. I really can't think of a way that my neuroticism or lack of it could be reflected in my layout, unless the roundy-round style of my folded loop speaks volumes."
When several responders seemed enthusiastic with that, I added the following to one of their observations that he had wondered if he was weird:
" I am happy to hear that both of you can relate. Larry, I would say, from my numerous encounters with him here and on a couple other forums, would rank high on agreeableness. I don't know that my critics on MR forums would apply that label to me, but I am pretty sure my success as a teacher and counsellor lends some currency for its application to me. My now grown daughters would probably have mixed feelings. I was demanding and often strict, but I was also a good dad who now enjoys a wonderful rapport with the grown girls. Also, I think retirement "does things" to people. One thing that modern personality theorists seem to agree on is that the manifestations of traits are highly responsive to situational variables. Changing circumstances will very often lead to a change in orientation in people. It kind of calls into question how robust or fixed, or strong, traits really are!"
The last statement is very important. Context specificity governs much of what we do. For example. it has been popular in business and in government to introduce and try to give currency to the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI) as a way to help people fit into the workplace. Unfortunately, the MBTI is a very weak predictor of success in the workplace. In my field of Industrial & Organizational Psychology, there are better ways of predicting success. The best predictors still seem to be overal innate intelligence and formal learning. The strongest is simply motivation, and motivation is highly sensitive to changes in circumstances.
-Crandell
P.S. - My "preference" is hard INTJ. I think we are noted for eating our young.
Well I'm 64 years old so I don't have to worry about all that personality crap anymore. Don't need a job, don't want a job. Humbug to all of you
John
Oh, yeah? Well..........
This seems like a good point to note that one other personality aspect I intended to suggest adding to Murphy Siding's list above is:
A preference for avoiding conflict - not necessarily debate, but hostile, angry conflict.
Also - I agree with selector's comments about a personality as being relative to the specific context, enviroment, setting, or culture in which it is being observed or tested. We can't all always be in the place we like and feel secure in - and when we're in those other places, and are being pushed and stressed and neither the support nor the refuge is there - then sometimes we take action that is inconsistent with our preferences - which can be "acceptable"or "unacceptable", depending on the circumstances.
Another thought just struck me (because it's one of my wife's ongoing crusades): Is there any correlation between introversion as we're discussing it here, and autism or autistic tendencies (whatever that syndrome is called), which I understand is far more prevalent in males than females ?
Or, is it instead that we're perfectly normal, and we just wish they'd go away and leave us alone ? After all, we're guys (mostly), and accustomed to and genetically programmed* to work alone and quietly, etc. ?
* From "In Defense of the Caveman" - that's how our ancestors did the hunting thing with the big game to feed themselves and the clan - quiet to avoid spooking the quarry, independently so as to cover as much area as possible and to avoid having to coordinate by communication = noise, etc. Go see the show or read the book or blog or whatever to find out why the women are equally well programmed to stay in groups and talk among themselves a lot - it all makes sense.
Hey Murphy - that book was written by a woman, right ? Hmmmm . . .
- Paul North.
In my business life I spend virtually all of my time either speaking with customers or associates on the phone or in person and spend great amounts of time at business functions like meals, conferences, etc....and so I personally like to have as much "quiet time" when I am "off duty" so to speak, as possible and really like such modern technology such as caller ID on the phone, etc. so if I don't want to speak to somebody, I don't have to. I don't think this makes me an introvert but rather someone who cherishes his private time, either with immediate family or alone if appropriate. I like this forum communication method at times but also fully enjoy the company of fellow railfans when I am out and about engaged in our hobby.
There's a quote to the effect of: "If you don't like - or aren't comfortable - being alone with yourself - then what does that say about you ?"
I may have mangled that quite a bit, but hopefuly you'll get the idea.
- PDN.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR I am devastatingly logical (just ask Pat!).
Murphy SidingDid we all marry extroverts?
I wouldn't be surprised...
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
I wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Paul_D_North_Jr Extraversion <====> Introversion (E or/ vs. I) Sensing <====> INtuition (S or/ vs. N) Thinking <====> Feeling (T or/ vs. F) Judging <====> Perceiving (J or/ vs. P)
I'm an ENTJ, boarderline between E and I, and heavy on the T and J...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Paul, Thanks for posting this. My MBTI is ISTJ. I've taken the Myers-Briggs a couple of times with the Military. It came out the same both times. My E and I scores were identical and my J and P scores were pure J, not one P. In our class of military officers fully one quarter of the class were STJ and the instructor said that the STJ trait was common to many military officers. Maybe its the training. George Patton was said to be an ESTJ. Bottom line is that it takes all kinds.
Does this prove anything about being a railfan? I dunno, but will continue to study this thread.
When I railroaded I was in a tower or bridge so I was alone most of the time. When I watch trains I am alone or with my grand kids. Train shows same thing, enjoy going but mind my own business.
For many years I was a disk jockey, locked up in a studio, alone, talking to a microphone. Later I go into sales and never wanted to back to the studio full time. However, in sales I spend a lot of time in the car alone with face to face contact with clients in many different venues...its is more fun and enlightening than sitting in a sudio alone.
My railfanning experiences have been similarly mixed. As a kid, I found that prowling alone I got further than when with a group...met more railroaders, rode more engines, got in more towers. But a group meeting was a lot of fun and I learned a lot. As an adult I was a member of groups but found I was traveling on trains alone, especially when visiting the folks back in Jersey--simply nobody wanted to go with me. But I found that inviting friends to join me on my jaunts was fun and gave us all an opportunity to ride and see a lot of NY Metropolitan area railroading. We've done it regularly over the past ten years with two to five people. It has been so much fun and so successful as a railfan jaunt that in my retirement it has led to a chance for me to offer my services for such trip planning and escorting at a small fee to cover my expenses: it allows me to continue to do it, it exposes other railfans to much more railroading than they thought possible in an area they are unfamiliar with, and as a social event, it is a lot of fun for all.
So, my railfan experiences mirror my work experiences in that I have been both introverted and extroverted at various times. And it always has been fun and rewarding.
BoydI wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it.
Asperger's is what I meant in this portion of one of my posts from yesterday:
"Another thought just struck me (because it's one of my wife's ongoing crusades): Is there any correlation between introversion as we're discussing it here, and autism or autistic tendencies (whatever that syndrome is called), which I understand is far more prevalent in males than females ? "
From http://www.aspergers.com/ - "ASPERGER'S DISORDER HOMEPAGE":
[emphasis added - PDN.]
From the "What is Asperger's Disorder?" page at:
http://www.aspergers.com/aspclin.htm
"They usually have a circumscribed area of interest which usually leaves no space for more age appropriate, common interests. Some examples are cars, trains, French Literature, door knobs, hinges, cappucino, meteorology, astronomy or history."
[ PDN's comment on this: Gee, thanks a lot ! ]
and from the "What is the epidemiology of Asperger's Disorder ?" page at:
http://www.aspergers.com/aspepi.htm
"the male/female ratio was 4:1" (based on a Swedish study).
From the last 2 paragraphs of the Wikipedia article, under "Cultural Aspects", at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome
[emphasis added for clarity, not necessarily advocacy - PDN].
"Autistic people have advocated a shift in perception of autism spectrum disorders as complex syndromes rather than diseases that must be cured. Proponents of this view reject the notion that there is an "ideal" brain configuration and that any deviation from the norm is pathological; they promote tolerance for what they call neurodiversity.[88] These views are the basis for the autistic rights and autistic pride movements.[89] There is a contrast between the attitude of adults with self-identified AS, who typically do not want to be cured and are proud of their identity, and parents of children with AS, who typically seek assistance and a cure for their children.[90]"
"Some researchers have argued that AS can be viewed as a different cognitive style, not a disorder or a disability.[7][91] In a 2002 paper, Simon Baron-Cohen wrote of those with AS, "In the social world there is no great benefit to a precise eye for detail, but in the worlds of math, computing, cataloguing, music, linguistics, engineering, and science, such an eye for detail can lead to success rather than failure." Baron-Cohen cited two reasons why it might still be useful to consider AS to be a disability: to ensure provision for legally required special support, and to recognize emotional difficulties from reduced empathy.[92] It has been argued that the genes for Asperger's combination of abilities have operated throughout recent human evolution and have made remarkable contributions to human history.[93]"
I think I heard Simon Baron-Cohen on a talk show about a year ago. I might learn to like that guy !
CShaveRRBoyd I wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it. Asperger's is a mild form of autism. A couple of years ago my sister hit me with her opinion that I had autism, and that was how she explained a lot of my childhood behaviors (she's a teacher of developmentally-disabled children, so she can spot behaviors). A counselor we'd used, when told of this, said she'd been thinking Asperger's. This diagnosis, according to some, even explains our tendencies toward the love of trains. To say that I married an extrovert is putting it very mildly--thank Goodness!
Boyd I wonder what the percentage of people on here with Aspergers is? I've never been tested for it but both my doctor and therapist have thought I could have it.
There could be something to it, of course what about all the model railroad clubs?? There were more clubs in the past, when model railroading was primarily in O scale and you needed a big area to really get things rolling, but there still are a lot of clubs which have a lot of social contact, as may NMRA conventions, swap meets, railfan trips, etc.
It could be it reflects one aspect of our personalities too. I can see as a "lone wolf" modeller that it appeals to my introverted side, but then again I played sports thru college and still compete weekly in a bowling league. At the league, I'm sure I'm much more extroverted, joking around etc. than I am at other times like at work, or when I'm home working on the layout and just want to be left alone with the radio on.
However I agree with the previous post that in general it's very tricky to get into "pop psychology" and make broad statements about people based on their interests, hobbies, etc. There was a book a few years ago where the author speculated that the reason so many model railroaders had beards was because the beard made them resemble the "face" of a steam engine, with the beard being the pilot (and I suppose the sideburns being the steps on either side of the smokebox) and their nose being the headlight etc.
That says more to me about the author's psychological state - - than it does about the model railroaders. Wonder what he saw in the Rorschach (sp ?) ink blot tests ? Scary stuff, man.
FWIW, I had a now-deceased uncle who was a well-regarded child psychiatrist. I believe he did a lot of good for his patients - some of whom I understood had some really messed-up backgrounds - but his own life and that of his 4 now adult children as they were growing up and since then were far from normal, to put it nicely. Someplace I read that dogs and cats are pretty good judges of personality - I'd put more faith in them than some of the so-called "experts".
P.S. - Most of my post-war Lionel train collection came from his eldest son, who lost interest in them and gave them up when he became a teenager. Too bad for him . . .
A former co-worker had studied psychology, psychiatry, or something (it's been a while). He related that he had once in class listened to a recorded conversation between a psychiatrist and someone who was apparently certifiably insane. He said it took several minutes to figure out which was which...
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