THE HISTORY QUIZ CONTINUES . . . newcomers welcome!

[KCSfan]

Johnny,

CofG Macon to Atlanta

L&N Atlanta to Cincinnati

PRR Cincy to Chicago

I will hazard a guess and say that when its route was changed from the GS&F it ran CoG between Atlanta and Albany and ACL between Albany and Jax. 

I believe this was the Southland's (or its predecessor's) route until the ACL's Perry Cutoff was opened in 1929. Sometime after that date the Southland was routed down the Cutoff between Albany  and Tampa and St Pete bypassing Jacksonville.

Mark

[al-in-chgo]

Just a WAG:  Does the L&N figure into this?  -  a.s.

 

[Deggesty]

al-in-chgo

moelarrycurly4 answered "Illlinois Central."  Is that the correct answer and if so, does he get credit for being the first to answer it?

I'd rather not this thread get cluttered with multiple topics.  If there are outstanding questions on this particular thread  (note that we're in Gen.Disc., not Classic), let's try to clear them up and move on, okay?  - a.s.

 

Al, the IC handled the St. Louis-Jacksonville car in 1916 and later; the Chicago-Jacksonville cars were handled by another railroad out of Chicago. Think of a well-known Chicago-Jacksonville train that always took two nights throughout its entire operation (though in its very last operation, it did not run north of Georgia, and was simply an overnight train into Jacksonville). When someone tells us fully how it was carried between Chicago and Macon, I will tell what changes were made. Don was right as to what road carried it just north of Macon, but he took the wrong turn 61 miles out of Macon.

Johnny

[al-in-chgo]

moelarrycurly4 answered "Illlinois Central."  Is that the correct answer and if so, does he get credit for being the first to answer it?

I'd rather not this thread get cluttered with multiple topics.  If there are outstanding questions on this particular thread  (note that we're in Gen.Disc., not Classic), let's try to clear them up and move on, okay?  - a.s.

 

[Deggesty]

moelarrycurly4

no it was in response to the question above my response but I guess there are too many questions in the quiz at one time.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your answer. After I sent the last post on this thread, I realized that you were trying to get the routing of the train above Macon. It is true that the IC & the CG cooperated in the operation of several trains between the Midwest and Florida (Seminole, Sunchaser, Floridan, City of Miami, for example), but these were all handled through Columbus and not Macon. The IC did handle a St. Louis-Jacksonville sleeper on this train (it had an interesting routing also; I could scarcely believe it when I first saw it, and it would have worked for Chicago as well), but I was asking about this train's routing to and from Chicago. There was also the Chicago-Savannah sleeper that was operated on the Seminole, back when it was a two-night out train, as far as Columbus and then on to Savannah through Macon. Don has posited some interesting routings, none of which, so far as I know, was ever used.

Johnny

[moelarrycurly4]

no it was in response to the question above my response but I guess there are too many questions in the quiz at one time.

[Deggesty]

moelarrycurly4

 Il Central

Moelarrycurly4, we have so many quizzes going that I have trouble keeping them straight. Were you answering the question, "Meanwhile, who can name a passenger railroad that did operate sleeping car service that never owned a Pacific 4-6-2?"? This is on the Classic Railroad Quiz thread on the Classic Trains forum. (Dave Klepper asked it yesterday morning, and there has been only one response so far.)

Johnny

[moelarrycurly4]

 Il Central

[Deggesty]

oltmannd

I'll start with some guesses. 

North of Macon - had to be the Central of Georgia - all the way to Chattanooga.  From there to Cincinnati, the CNO&TP, although I don't when they went under SOU control. (If not the CNO&TP, then there's only one other choice )  North from there, NYC, maybe?  From Tifton to Jax, how about ACL? The Seaboard had a similar line E-W line to the north, so perhaps the Tifton to Waycross to Jax line could have been ACL.

After 6/5/31, did the train take the Central of GA around Atlanta to Rome?  Then in the 50's I'll guess it moved to the SOU line between Macon and Atlanta.

Don, you are right about who took the train beween Tifton and Jacksonville, and who handled it just north of Macon. But--the CG never handled any fancy trains between Griffin and Chattanooga. And, except for the short time that the GS&F handled it after being taken into the Southern Railway System, the Southern Railway System never touched it. I discount the CG's becomng a part of the Southern in the sixties, for by then the CG no longer handled it. If I were to give the name of the train, you might have a clue as to its full route north to Chicago.

Johnny

[daveklepper]

You are absolutely correct.  Remember I am working just from memory and have not been to the area for about 16 years.   I stand by my description of the system, however, and riding it was a wonderful pleasure.  The main line 1912-1914 converted-to-one-man center-entrance cars with hand brakes, dynamic brakes, and magnetic track brakes, but no air, was a real thrill.  The Irwin - Jeanette (spelling) - Greesburg cars were more conventional front and rear door smaller cars with similar electrical equipment an no air.  The Cincinnati lighweights were safety one-man cars, just different from most Cincinnati Lighweights by their wide PA gauge.

Incidentally, an issue of ERA Headlights says the Daisy Line was standard gauge.   It was wide gauge compatible with the wide gauge Louisville streetcar system, and the Big Four Railroad Bridge to New Albany had three-rail dual-gauge track.

[Modelcar]

daveklepper

The main line of the West Penn extended from Greensville south through Connolsville to Uniontown.

Dave....I'm assuming you refer to Greensburg and Connellsville, Pa.

I'll back out of here and not interrupt the questioning...

[oltmannd]

I'll start with some guesses. 

North of Macon - had to be the Central of Georgia - all the way to Chattanooga.  From there to Cincinnati, the CNO&TP, although I don't when they went under SOU control. (If not the CNO&TP, then there's only one other choice )  North from there, NYC, maybe?  From Tifton to Jax, how about ACL? The Seaboard had a similar line E-W line to the north, so perhaps the Tifton to Waycross to Jax line could have been ACL.

After 6/5/31, did the train take the Central of GA around Atlanta to Rome?  Then in the 50's I'll guess it moved to the SOU line between Macon and Atlanta.

[daveklepper]

In answer to a previous question, the tracks around Latrob definitely were West Penn.   The main line of the West Penn extended from Greensville south through Connolsville to Uniontown.   At Hecla Junction, midway between Greenville and Connolsvile, the branch for Latrob left via a wye.  Normal service was for a single car to shuttel Latrob - Hecla Junction, meeting the cars in each direction at Hecla Junction.   At Greensvilel, there was a line west through Irwin to Trafford with a track connection at Trafford to Pittsburgh Railways, and at one time through trolley freight service, but I believe never any through passenger equipment in regular service.  In 1942 the connection between Irwin and Trafford was scrapped, because the PRR was providing adquate local passenger service with its 4-6-0-powwered local trains, and the steel, particularly the bridge entering Trafford, was useful for the war effort.   In Connolsville was a local streetcar line operated usually by one to the two last West Penn Cincinnati curved-side lightweights that was not scrapped when the serarate Allegheny Valley division had been abandoned prior to WWII.  There was also a separate longer alternate line between Connolsville and Uniontown.  South of Uniontown were three branchlines to Fairchance,. Mason City, and Brownsville.  The Fairchance line ran for miles next to the B&O.   These three southernmost lines were the first to be abandoned after WWII.   The last used West Penn Cincinnati Lightweight is at the Ardmore, PA trolley museum, which has a piece of the former Pittsburgh Railways interurban line to Washington, PA.

[Deggesty]

This is, essentially, a response to question asked a long time ago, concerning routing in Virginia. The topic was the C&O's entry into Washington, which was by way of what became the Southern from Orange up to Alexandria. At the time of my response, I had a vague memory that, at one time, the track between Orange and the C&O's main at Gordonsville had been a part of a predecessor of the Southern. Last night, I was looking in the June 1868 Guide--and I found it! Back then, the Orange, Alexandria, and Manassas reached Charlottesville, not by going directly from Orange, but by way of Gordonsville, using the Virginia Central (predecessor of the C&O) between Gordonsville and Charlottesville. In 1873, the OA&M became the Virginia Midland, which by 1893 was a part of the Richmond and Danville. In 1880, the Charlottesville and Rapidan, which ran directly between Orange and Charlottesville was opened, and then the Orange-Gordonsville track was sold to the C&O which, by 1893, was using it to reach the Richmond and Danville so as to continue into Washington from the west.

[Deggesty]

oltmannd

Fast and 100% accurate!  You're up.

Even though this question starts with a train, it is about how it was routed. The June, 1916, issue of the Guide, shows the Georgia Southern and Florida operating trains 3 & 4 between Macon and Tifton. This train was a through train between Chicago and Jacksonville. Even though the GS&F went into Jacksonville, another road carried the train into Jacksonville.What road was it, and what roads handled the train north of Macon? 

By July 4, 1920, the GS&F was in the Southern Railway System, and the train is still shown, with different numbers (the numbers used by the other roads that handled it)--and there is no description of the train. Apparently the Southern was embarrassed by their handling it.

Extra credit: By June 15, 1931, it was handled over a different route between Macon and Tifton (44 miles longer); what was the route? Extra! Extra! credit: what further change in its route was made early in the fifties (31 miles shorter)?

Johnny

[oltmannd]

Fast and 100% accurate!  You're up.

[Deggesty]

oltmannd

Up until 1958, Troy NY had a Union Station, owned by Troy Union RR.  Who were the three RR owners of Troy Union RR.  What fourth RR had trackage rights into the station?

I would say that the B&M, NYC, and D&H owned the Troy Union, and that the Rutland had trackage rights (over the B&M) into the station .

Johnny

[oltmannd]

Up until 1958, Troy NY had a Union Station, owned by Troy Union RR.  Who were the three RR owners of Troy Union RR.  What fourth RR had trackage rights into the station?

[Modelcar]

Dave......I know of a system over in western Pennsylvania back a few decades that must have served the Latrobe area....The tracks crossed the Lincoln Highway headed south towards Pipetown.....Must have been an interurban route....I don't know what system that may have been a part of....Do you have anything on that.....?  I could still see the R of W back in the '50's.

[daveklepper]

Oltdmman is winner since he got CA correct for now and the answer NJ and PA kind of spoiled the second part.   PA is the WWII answer, with Pittsburgh Railways, West Penn, Johnstown, Altoona, Hershey, Scranton, Laural Line-Lackawanna and Wyoming Valley, Willks-Barre, Lancaster, Lehigh Valley Transit (with trolley-pole interurban cars on the third rail Philadelphia and Western to 69th Street Philly), the Philadelphia and Western, Red Arrow-Philadelphia Suburban, Philadelphia Transportation System (largest system) and Fairmont Park Traction (in the Park only, open cars, the smallest system, also in Philly.)

Parts of Red Arrow, P&W, and PTC survive as part of SEPTA

Parts of PtsRy survive as part of PAT

[Modelcar]

A bit more trivia:  The Johnstown Traction Co. that served that city had to negotiate terrain with elevation changes....From the downtown elevation of the city to up in Westmont, a Boro extended out from downtown, I'd say the elevation change was at least 500-600'....That's quite a bit for rail type vehicles in a pretty short distance.

I too,  {as Dave indicated he did}, rode  the JTC system.

[ns3010]

I have two guesses. I'll say either Pennsylvania or NJ, because I know they both still have light rail.

[CShaveRR]

I'll be brave and guess Illinois. 

In Chicago, you had the Chicago Surface Lines, and whatever the L system was called before CTA was organized.

To Chicago, you had the three Insull carriers:  CNS&M, CA&E, CSS&SB.  And the IC.

Around Chicago, you had the Aurora, Elgin, & Fox River.

Beyond Chicago, there was the Illinois Terminal, and perhaps one or two others.

Today's light-rail system:  St. Louis Metrolink.

[daveklepper]

I rode Johnstown on two occasions, and two of the double-end St. Louis-built lightweights, 357 and 356 are at Branford, where I ran 357 many, many times.   Also rode it on a fan trip in Jonstown.   The mdoern postwar cars were St. Louis -built PCC's with standee windows, and I believe Johnstown had 25 of them.   Johnstown was the smalles system in North America to run PCC's, but size of the fleet was not the smallest.  Illinois Terminal had only ten PCC's, for example.

 

A hint on the state.   One town or city had four different companies or authorities with trolley-pole equipped cars serving it.

 

Another hint:  It is one of states that currently does have light rail. 

[Modelcar]

I will add a bit of trivia of one more area.....{Not saying the state would be first}, but the city of Johnstown, Pa.,  with The Johnstown Traction Co., had a wide ranging system that dated back several decades.  Survived a flood too....1936.

It survived until about June, 10th...1960 as a streetcar transportation system.  It was a wide ranging system {in mileage}.  It had extended on out to another town in the county....Windber, but that milage had been cut back by then.  JTC served extended {Boro's}, around the city of Johnstown in a wide area.  I don't have the mileage in front of me but it was extensive.  I do have several booklets on the system and one can find dozens and dozens of photos of it on the internet.

To provide service to many Boro's...they had to deal with the lay of the land....Up and down grades.  But the routes seemed to be layed out rather well.....and of course most was street running.  They even aquired the single control end cars {Brill...I believe}, after WWII and they were so much quieter running with the composite construction of the wheels....{not transferring the sound to the car body nearly as much as the older vehicles.

[daveklepper]

Correct about Indiana.   Not the answer.   The Marion system that survived WWII was all-Birney-car, no double truck cars ran during or after WWII.   Some were left by the Indiana Railroad, some were second hand from Michigan and Massachusetts and possibliy other palces.

The Indiana interurban that survived was a short one from Lousiville to New Albany, the Dixie line or the Daisy line, its nickname.   During WWII and until in shut down afterward, it used regular Louisville Peter Witt type motor and trailer streetcars, with the motor cars equipped with roof headlight.   The "Big Four" steamroad bridge was dual gauge, and this interurban line had the Louisville special trolley wide gauge, similar to Baltimore, Philly, and Pittsburgh.   But the Indiana Railroad used the same bridge and was of course standard gauge.  IN New Albany was the small local streetcar system mentioned, and after separating from the Indiana Railroad, it was named "Home Transit."  It was also all Birney during WWII, or nearly all Birney, they may have been two double-truck old wood deck roofers used as standby.

A hint about the state.   One of the systems running during WWII and for a few years afterward was something like the current heritage operation in Lowell, MA, except it was real, with a long history, and not a replica or heritage.   It was not the only system in the city or town it served.

If you are concerned about how we folks are doing where I am, contact me at [e-mail], and I'll give you the details.

[al-in-chgo]

Daveklepper, how are these folks doing?  - a.s.

 

[Modelcar]

daveklepper

  Anyone can add to the list? 

daveklepper

Indiana may be been tops in the twenties before consolidation of some five interurbans into the Indiana Railroad

 

Muncie had a far reaching system{s}, back in an earlier time frame.  A big center city station for Interurbans and local street cars. That building was demolished about 1958.  One can find photos of it on the internet.

The city had about 4 or 5 lines {interurban}, reaching out like the spokes of a wheel at one time, to Indy, Bluffton, New Castle, Winchester...actually 2 lines heading towards Indy....and possibly, a few others I can't name.....Basically, this ended about January, 1941......Streetcar system here was shut down about 1931.....And...a bit of trivia....Various places, I can still determine where rails were positioned in the streets....{I'm sure some still there covered with paving material}.  One intersection in a western residential area  of our city still has rails visible at the surface....Concrete street.

[daveklepper]

You are correct with California for today, and add the Long Beach "serve the tourist boats and harbor" historic Red-car line run by two beautiful replica PE cars and one restored PE car as a regular transit service.   Yes, California is tops today.

 

Indiana may be been tops in the twenties before consolidation of some five interurbans into the Indiana Railroad, and then subsequent abandonments of many town systems, but during WWII there were three or four states with more systems.   Indania had the short interurban running into Indiana from Louisville, the small town system across from Louisville, Marion's local streetcars (an Indiana RR relic), the Indianapolis streetcar system, with its beautiful single-end modern Brill Peter Witt like cars, Fort Wayne with double-end Master Units, the Chicago South Shore and South Bend, and I think a local system sill running in Gary.   Anyone can add to the list?  Again, three states had more.

[oltmannd]

For the "today" half, I'll stick with my "five systems" for California.  SF Muni, San Jose, LA, SD Trolley and Oceanside Sprinter light rail line.  Can't think of any other state with more than two.

Of course, this excludes museums and heavy rail rapid transit.