I'm going to take a wild guess and say Pocatello, Idaho.
I have a quick geography question--some people will get this right away, but will have to wait about ten hours for me to return.
A lot of folks know that my favorite trains to watch for are the Railex perishable trains for Rotterdam, New York. Two trains come every week from Wallula, Washington, and one train from Delfar, California. (Rumor has it that a second Delfar train could be added in a month or so.)
So, what location (city and state) is the first point on the UP that these trains share on their routes eastward?
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR I'm remembering an article from Trains about a logging railroad someplace in da U.P. that had some totally amazing grades, from being built into and out of valleys--a lot of momentum was needed to overcome some of these hills, so the trains had to get going pretty quickly on the downgrade. Could this be it? I could never qualify for the bonus, though.
I could never qualify for the bonus, though.
Carl got it. See:
World's steepest adhesion railroad? Trains, June 1969 page 42 15- to 20-percent grades ( GRADE, "JONES, CLINTON, JR.", LOGGING, MICHIGAN, TRN )
The company was Ellis & Porterfield - I think. My reference is not with me now, and I also found a link to a pretty good article that I'll post later today when I can retrieve it.
Johnny is also right about the operations. If the loco had to stop in a valley - like to make a pick-up from a spur there - they had to see-saw or "rock" back and forth between the grades on opposite sides of the valley to get up enough speed to get over the top of the hill. Speeds were reported to be in the 60 MPH range, if I recall right.
One more thing - they used rod locos - 4-4-0's, again if memory is right - even on those steep grades. Despite being a logging railroad in Michigan - where & why the Shay geared loco was invented - you couldn't use one of them for this. They couldn't go fast enough ! Clearly a case of using and working with what you had, instead of the "conventional wisdom" solution, which was typical for loggers.
Your turn, Carl. Thanks for participating.
- Paul North.
Mount Gretna Narrow Gauge Railroad
http://www.catskillarchive.com/rrextra/odgretna.Html
Ambler, formerly Wissahickon, was renamed for Mary J. Ambler, heroic responder to a train crash that killed dozens of Irish kids enroute to a parish picnic on the North Pennsylvania Railroad.
http://stmichaelshistory.catholicweb.com/index.cfm/NewsItem?ID=124237&From=Home
Philip L. Fox met Lincoln. Could that be the chief surveyor whose middle name was Lansdale?
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=lincoln;rgn=div1;view=text;idno=lincoln4;node=lincoln4%3A948
http://books.google.com/books?id=Gb203Gb8dGUC&pg=PA10&dq=P+%26+R+Station+Lansdale&lr=&as_brr=3
Mike
Not only would the trains have to build speed up on downgrades, they had to keep going back and forth until they were able gain the momentum necessary to top the next grade.
Johnny
I'm remembering an article from Trains about a logging railroad someplace in da U.P. that had some totally amazing grades, from being built into and out of valleys--a lot of momentum was needed to overcome some of these hills, so the trains had to get going pretty quickly on the downgrade. Could this be it?
Paul, I would have guessed the same as Mark did. In the South, at least, they were called "pole roads." I had heard of them for some time before I learned what they were. A man in Mississippi told me of one or two that had been operated in Mississippi.
Mark -
No, that's not it. Ive seen them, too. But these Michigan logging railroads ran on conventional steel rails.
So far you're making me feel good - it wasn't answered on the 1st try, and in less than 20 minutes (my earlier "record").
- Paul.
Paul_D_North_Jr In Michigan's Upper Peninsula ("UP"), in the early part of the 20th century there were logging railroads at its western end, near Ontanagon. What was the unique physical characteristic of several of those lines ? Extra credit: Name the logging company. - Paul North.
Extra credit: Name the logging company.
Paul,
I've no idea about the three warm up questions but I'll hazard a SWAG about the Michigan logging roads. The trains ran on cut logs not steel rails. I've seen pictures of this kind of logging road but have no idea where it was located. As I recall from memory both engine and car wheels were somewhat like an automobile wheel sans tire. Their convex circumerence rode on the round logs.
Mark
Johnny -
OK, thanks ! But I have to say, it feels something like Mark Twain said about being tarred and feathered and ridden out of town on a rail:
"If it wasn't for the honor of the thing, I'd rather walk !"
So here goes. By the way, anybody else notice how tough it is to make this a history (= time) quiz, instead of more of a geography (= map, or place or location) quiz ? Also, how tough it is to get it out of your backyard, so that more can participate ?
My first few ideas turned out to be too easy, but I'll put them out here anyway as "warm-ups" or in case somebody wants to have some fun with them. Research is permitted for all of these:
1) What was the name of the narrow-gauge railroad that was located between Lebanon, PA and Conewago, PA, along the former Cornwall-Lebanon Railroad ? It's now a really neat rail-trail, with an unusual history, complete with a 130 ft. long through truss bridge, some substantial grades (2 to 3 %), and a couple of B&B's within say 1/4 mile of it. Check out the little town that the NG served, too.
2.) One of the stations on the former Reading Railroad's - now SEPTA commuter and CSX freight - Bethlehem / North Pennsylvania Railroad Branch is Ambler, PA. What is the historical significance of that name ?
3.) A junction further north on that same Branch is at a town named Lansdale, where the Stoney Creek Branch (freight only) and the Doylestown Branch (also SEPTA commuter) connect to it. What is the connection between that name and the railroad ?
And now, today's question, for the honor of being able to ask the next question:
In Michigan's Upper Peninsula ("UP"), in the early part of the 20th century there were logging railroads at its western end, near Ontanagon. What was the unique physical characteristic of several of those lines ?
Research allowed - this is pretty esoteric (I hope !). Otherwise, next time I'll have to ask something really "off the wall", like: What is the unusual railroad connection with the famous painter/ artist/ "illustrator" N. C. Wyeth, of the Wyeth family fame of Chadds Ford, Chester County, PA ? (N.C.'s son Andrew just died within the past month or so.)
Good luck !
Paul_D_North_Jr Deggesty 3. How much of the old Ma & Pa is still in operation? 4. What line is now also operated by the successor to the Ma & Pa? Answers, off the top of my head (no research): 2. I'm pretty sure KCSfan meant Baltimore, Maryland, not Baltimore, PA [if there even is such a place ?] 3. Not much A couple miles around York and Red Lion, PA is all that's left, I think. 4. Not sure what you're looking for here - it can be confusing, anyway. I suppose a few miles of the PRR's old Northern Central is now included, and maybe a little of the micro-RR Stewartstown RR. Other than that, the Ma & Pa's former trackage has been through several different short-line corporations and name changes in the past couple of decades - I'm thinking Genessee & Wyoming had it for a while, as well as Rail America or some such. I think the operation is now called York Rail, if I'm not mistaken ? It may now be owned by Penn Eastern Rail Lines, or similar. - Paul North.
Deggesty 3. How much of the old Ma & Pa is still in operation? 4. What line is now also operated by the successor to the Ma & Pa?
3. How much of the old Ma & Pa is still in operation?
4. What line is now also operated by the successor to the Ma & Pa?
Answers, off the top of my head (no research):
2. I'm pretty sure KCSfan meant Baltimore, Maryland, not Baltimore, PA [if there even is such a place ?]
3. Not much A couple miles around York and Red Lion, PA is all that's left, I think.
4. Not sure what you're looking for here - it can be confusing, anyway.
I suppose a few miles of the PRR's old Northern Central is now included, and maybe a little of the micro-RR Stewartstown RR.
Other than that, the Ma & Pa's former trackage has been through several different short-line corporations and name changes in the past couple of decades - I'm thinking Genessee & Wyoming had it for a while, as well as Rail America or some such. I think the operation is now called York Rail, if I'm not mistaken ? It may now be owned by Penn Eastern Rail Lines, or similar.
2. Yes, I am sure Mark intended Baltimore, Md. The June, 1930, Guide shows rail service to a Baltimore in each of the following: Georgia, Maryland (eight railroad stations and one ferry terminal), Michigan, New Brunswick, and New York, but none in Pennsylvania.
3. Yes, according to SPV’s map of the Lower Susquehanna (1998 edition of the Northeast Atlas), York to East York, which is about two miles, is all that is operated.
4. A good guess. The Ma & Pa began operating the Northern Central’s line to Walkersville, Md., in 1976, and cut back to Hanover, Pa., in 1978. Here’s one item I missed in the article in the Spring 2008 NRHS Bulletin (the latest issue; it came this week; the NRHS people are gradually catching up with delayed issues): in the eighties, operating as Yorkrail, the road assumed operation of the former WM’s line into York; according to SPV, this runs from York to Hanover. Also, according to SPV, the Maryland and Pennsylvania operated the former NorC line between Spring Grove and Hanover. Also, you were right in naming Genesee & Wyoming; Yorkrail went into this system in 2005 (2002, according to Wikipedia). In 1999, Emons Transportation merged two of its subsidiaries, Yorkrail and Ma & Pa, into one, naming it York Railway Company. As you say, there have been several changes in the past decade or two, and if you really delve into it you can easily be confused.
I must say that WordPerfect’s spell checker is defective; it does not list Genesee, along with some other essential words.
Paul, on the basis of your naming correctly the obscure, even by guessing, I give you the cigar.
1. Maryland & Pennsylvania
2. Baltimore and York, PA
3. Don't know
4. " "
KCSfanTake it away Johnny
I think we all know about Mom & Pop stores.
1.What was the Ma and Pa R. R.?
2. What were its end points?
NRHS members should not have any trouble answering all the questions.
Johnny's got it and is our winner. In the 40's and 50's forty or so car unit trains of cypress logs were run three or more times a week from logging operations in the Big Cypress swamp in southwest Florida's Collier County (Naples-Imokalee area). The destination of thse trains was the Lee Tidewater Cypress Co. sawmill in Perry on the Cutoff.
I never heard of the Santa Fe's streamlined 4-6-4 referred to as the Bluebird, only the Blue Goose. In any event that was the engine I had in mind when I posted that hint.
Take it away Johnny.
Mark, to end the suspense, I'll tell it: the Coast Line ran unit trains of cypress logs from the Everglades (perhaps even from Everglades) to Perry three times a week.
Unit trains of turpentine--Wow! Potash? No, but phosphates come out of Bone Valley; are they carried anywhere in unit Trains?
The vignette that treated the "Bluebird" also stated that the engine was known by other names, but did not give any. It might have been known as the "Blue Goose." In January of 1953, the engine was handling the Antelope west out of Kansas City, but some of its streamlined sheathing had been removed during the war, so it did not present as sleek an appearance as it did when new. I presume this is the engine you referred to.
daveklepper Blue goose?
Blue goose?
Dave,
That's it, the Blue Goose was the nickname of the ACL's only through freight that ran between Tampa and Thomasville over the Cutoff from the 1940's to the early 50's. Don't ask me the origin of the nickname because I don't have a clue.
The score is now 1/2 pt for you and 2-1/2 for Johnny. I'm still looking for an answer to 4. The unit trains did not carry pine or turpentine but they did carry a forest product and ran wholly within the state of Florida.
oltmannd KCSfan oltmannd I was thinking more along the lines of pine trees or potash. Pine trees are the big "cash crop" in that area and potash is part of fertilizer - maybe headed for the farms in West GA. but this is a just a SWAG. Don, You're warm. But the loads didn't come from mines and the trains din't run as far north as Georgia. Here's a hint on the name of the through freight asked for in 3. It was the same as the nickname of a rather famous streamlined 4-6-4 that ran on another railroad. Mark Turpentine? (the commodity, not the train name...)
KCSfan oltmannd I was thinking more along the lines of pine trees or potash. Pine trees are the big "cash crop" in that area and potash is part of fertilizer - maybe headed for the farms in West GA. but this is a just a SWAG. Don, You're warm. But the loads didn't come from mines and the trains din't run as far north as Georgia. Here's a hint on the name of the through freight asked for in 3. It was the same as the nickname of a rather famous streamlined 4-6-4 that ran on another railroad. Mark
oltmannd I was thinking more along the lines of pine trees or potash. Pine trees are the big "cash crop" in that area and potash is part of fertilizer - maybe headed for the farms in West GA. but this is a just a SWAG.
I was thinking more along the lines of pine trees or potash. Pine trees are the big "cash crop" in that area and potash is part of fertilizer - maybe headed for the farms in West GA.
but this is a just a SWAG.
Don,
You're warm. But the loads didn't come from mines and the trains din't run as far north as Georgia.
Here's a hint on the name of the through freight asked for in 3. It was the same as the nickname of a rather famous streamlined 4-6-4 that ran on another railroad.
Turpentine? (the commodity, not the train name...)
I do not know if the ACL ever officially named its freights. I do have SAL employee timetables of about 1948 which have names for all of the mainline freights in shown.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Vitamin C
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1218957
http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=234920
[quote user="Deggesty"]
[/quote
]From William E. Griffen, Jr.'s Atlantic Coast Line, we learn that the last section to be laid was between Monticello and Perry, and that the cutoff was opened to relieve congestion in Jacksonville--no longer did freight to and from the Midwest have to go through Jacksonville.
[/quote]
Absolutely right Johnny. The Florida land boom of the 1920's resulted in so much traffic funneling through Jacksonville that it became congested to the point it was necessary to embargo cars at their northern origins until they were authrized to proceed to the Sunshine State. I've heard that the FEC found it almost impossible to move their trains because every siding between Jax and Miami was clogged with idle cars. Of course by the time the Perry Cutoff was completed the boom was over and the crash of 1929 was on the horizon so it never saw the traffic volume it was built to handle.
You've answered parts 1, 2 and half of 3. See if you can answer the rest of the question.
Until recently I thought the Jersey Shore was part of the Atlantic Coast Line.
"Pine Creek rises in Potter County and flows east and southward and empties into the West Branch of the Susquehanna River, near Jersey Shore, Lycoming County."
Jersey Shore & Pine Creek Railway: "Stokesdale down Marsh Creek to Ansonia on Pine Creek, thence down Pine Creek to Jersey Shore, thence down the west branch of the Susquehanna to Williamsport." (75 miles)
http://www.visittiogapa.com/railtrail.html
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9A03E2DE1E3CEE3ABC4053DFB4668389699FDE
KCSfan I saw on the weather channel where it was 32 degrees in Tampa just a few days ago. Of course the Southland is the right answer to that part of the question but you might have to do some research to answer the rest of it. Feel free to do so.
I saw on the weather channel where it was 32 degrees in Tampa just a few days ago. Of course the Southland is the right answer to that part of the question but you might have to do some research to answer the rest of it. Feel free to do so.
Yes, Ulysses is about 30 or so miles north and west of Ansonia, Colton Pt., and the Grand Canyon. But looking at two topo maps I have it shows the genisis of Pine Creek and the Chesapeake watershed is at Newfield. Pine Creek flows west from Ansonia toward Galeton with tributaries coming down from Ulysses and Newfield area. Looking at the watershed maps link, Newfield. Jct/Gold is right where the three colors merge, the blue, green and yellow just top left center. The topo maps likewise verify the beginnings of Ohio and St. Lawrence watersheds, too
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Deggesty Mark, I think that everybody who knows anything about long-time ACL passenger service knows that the Southland ran over the Perry Cutoff. But, how many know that before the cutoff was completed that the Southland was operated into Jacksonville? It, as well as the Dixie Flyer were operated by the GS&F between Macon and Tifton until the GS&F was enfolded into the Southern Railroad System. As to the rest of your question, how much research are we allowed? I don't know if my mother actually saw the train when it came nto Tampa in the winter or if she was quoting my father, but there were times when it came in with snow on the roofs of the cars. It must have been cold in south Georgia. Johnny
Mark, I think that everybody who knows anything about long-time ACL passenger service knows that the Southland ran over the Perry Cutoff. But, how many know that before the cutoff was completed that the Southland was operated into Jacksonville? It, as well as the Dixie Flyer were operated by the GS&F between Macon and Tifton until the GS&F was enfolded into the Southern Railroad System. As to the rest of your question, how much research are we allowed?
I don't know if my mother actually saw the train when it came nto Tampa in the winter or if she was quoting my father, but there were times when it came in with snow on the roofs of the cars. It must have been cold in south Georgia.
Johnny,
I have fond memories of the Southland since my first ever trip in a Pullman was made on it in the winter of '42 or '43. Travelled with my aunt from Tampa to Gary, IN in an open section car. Also during that trip I ate my first meal in a dining car. It was breakfast in a CoG diner higballing between Macon and Atlanta. Had a good 'ol southern breakfast; fresh orange juice, ham steak and eggs, with red eye gravy on the side, grits and corn muffins served piping hot in their cast iron baking dishes.
wanswheel There was a Fall Brook Coal Co. line ending at Ulysses (the Pine Creek?) which became NYC&HRR in 1899. That may be why C&PA went to Ulysses as well. Timetable cover: http://naotc.org/side/03824-1892may22.html WAG map http://www.personal.psu.edu/tss109/WAG/images/wag/wagmap50.jpg Watersheds map http://www.dep.state.pa.us/river/images/PAbasin.gif Mike
There was a Fall Brook Coal Co. line ending at Ulysses (the Pine Creek?) which became NYC&HRR in 1899. That may be why C&PA went to Ulysses as well. Timetable cover:
http://naotc.org/side/03824-1892may22.html
WAG map
http://www.personal.psu.edu/tss109/WAG/images/wag/wagmap50.jpg
Watersheds map
http://www.dep.state.pa.us/river/images/PAbasin.gif
Mike -
The Pine Creek I referred to is just west - about 7 miles - of Wellsboro, crossing under Route 6 at Ansonia. The NYC line through Ansonia at the right on the WAG map for which you provided the link is basically in and hence parallels that Pine Creek Gorge. Today, the Leonard Harrison and Colton Point State Parks straddle that Gorge. Ulysses is about 20 miles NW of Ansonia. If you can access Google Maps and then the "Terrain" view, you'll see that Ulysses is nowheres near the Pine Creek Gorge. The topography there is pretty crenelated and rugged, so it's hard to follow a particular stream as small as they are around Ulysses, but I'd be really surprised if it's the same Pine Creek all the way over there. But I have no other explanation of why the Falls Brook Coal Co. would have selected that name. Even at that it would be surprising - the Pine Creek Gorge area has gained fame only in the last 20 - 30 years since it became a state park/ forest/ game land, the railroad was abandoned and removed, and the rail-trail was constructed. Before tha, it was just another upstate mountain stream, I think.
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