THE HISTORY QUIZ CONTINUES . . . newcomers welcome!

[al-in-chgo]

KCSfan

al-in-chgo

I have no idea, but since the term "Macaroni" sounds a little Yankee Doodle to me, I'll WAG on the railroad being exx-B&O, now CSX. 

Sorry Al but the Macaroni Line was/is pretty far removed from the area formerly served by the B&O.

Mark

I peeked.  You're right!  But now I can't answer . . .  - al

 

[SSW9389]

I could answer only part of the question. Both lines are still around in one form or another, although obviously both have changed ownership. I don't exactly know the end points of the Macaroni, nor how the lines got their interesting names.

[SSW9389]

I knew of the Rabbit because I encountered it first hand back in '73. The Macaroni has been in the rail press lately because it is being restored to operation.

The Rabbit I knew in 1973 ran from Houston, TEXAS to Shreveport, Louisiana. It is now a Union Pacific Operation. The Rabbit connected with the Cotton Belt's "K" Branch in Shreveport. I didn't know why it was called the Rabbit Line until just a few minutes ago. Can you say HBOTOL or know what that stands for?

The Macaroni Line I know is being returned to operation by KCS. Part of it is already open and the remainder should be open sometime this Spring. Until just a bit ago I would have said that the  Macaroni Line ran from Houston to Corpus Christi, TEXAS. I now know that would be an incorrect answer. And I know how the line got its name from that HBOTOL thing.

Ed

KCSfan

I realize it's Paul North's turn to ask the next question but it's been five days without any posted so rather than let the thread die I'm going to throw one out for discussion.

Many rail lines got tagged with unusual nicknames. The Rabbit and the Macaroni lines were but two of them. What railroad owned them, what were their end points, what was the origin of their nicknames and what is the status of these lines today?

Mark

[KCSfan]

Ed's nailed a good part of the answer. The Rabbit runs between Shreveport and Houston and today is a UP main handling southbound traffic from the upper midwest that is fed to it off the former Cotton Belt line. The Macaroni runs between Victoria and Rosenberg, TX and when it's rehab is complete it will form a part of the KCS main line to Mexico.

What's left to be answered is the railroad or railroads that formerly owned these two lines and how they got their nicknames. I can't figure out the HBOTOL thing and hopefuly Ed will explain it.

Mark

[SSW9389]

 If I gave away what HBOTOL is anyone could just look it up because the answers are mostly there. I used that resource quite a bit in research for my book.   

KCSfan

What's left to be answered is the railroad or railroads that formerly owned these two lines and how they got their nicknames. I can't figure out the HBOTOL thing and hopefuly Ed will explain it.

Mark

[al-in-chgo]

Has anyone given an answer as to the "Bluff Lines" yet?   -   a.s.

 

[Deggesty]

SSW9389

What's left to be answered is the railroad or railroads that formerly owned these two lines and how they got their nicknames. I can't figure out the HBOTOL thing and hopefuly Ed will explain it.

Mark

Well, I looked in the June, 1893, Guide, and learned the names of the original roads, but perhaps I shouldn't tell because I looked. One name was really impressive because of the endpoints (by 1893, it had been absorbed by a much larger road). The other line was actually two roads, one of which had a somewhat impressive name (it looked for a broader horizon than it reached), and the name of the second began one way and ended up in reverse, and expressed a hope that did not reach fulfillment until both roads were absorbed by the much larger road. This other line was still three foot gauge until 1894, according to Edson's Railroad Names.

You can't tell from railroad maps, but perhaps the Macaroni Line had many sharp curves (elbows). Or it was considered to be a "dandy" (as fops and dandies were called "macaronis" some two hundred years ago). Did the trains on the Rabbit Line hop from place to place?

Johnny

[KCSfan]

Between Ed and Johnny they've got most of the question answered. The Macaroni line started out as the New York Texas & Mexican RR and it was financed by Italian interests and employed mostly immigrant Italian workers it its construction hence the name Macaroni Line. It later became a part of the T&NO (SP) prior to being sold in recent years to the KCS.

The Rabbit Line was originally the Houston East & West Texas, a 3' gauge road running from Houston to the Louisiana state line at the Sabine River. A bridge was completed across the river in the 1890's and the HE&WT merged with the Houston & Shreveport and was later acquired by the T&NO. Early HE&WT trackage was such that its trains jumped the tracks so frequently the locals called them rabbits giving rise to the lines nickname.

Johnny or Ed, if either of you has a new question handy take it away.

Mark

 

[Deggesty]

KCSfan

Johnny or Ed, if either of you has a new question handy take it away.

Mark

Ed, if you have one, pose it. If you don't, I put one out.

I see that I was not far wrong in supposing the the trains hopped about.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

HBOTOL: Hopping Bunny of Texas to Louisiana?  Hare bouncing off track often late.

HE&WT: Hell Either Way Taken

[SSW9389]

Handbook of Texas Online 

 

wanswheel

HBOTOL: Hopping Bunny of Texas to Louisiana?  Hare bouncing off track often late.

HE&WT: Hell Either Way Taken

[Deggesty]

Deggesty

KCSfan

Johnny or Ed, if either of you has a new question handy take it away.

Mark

Ed, if you have one, pose it. If you don't, I put one out.

I see that I was not far wrong in supposing the the trains hopped about.

Johnny

Ed hasn'tposed a question , so ("Oh, no!" they say, "He's back!") here is one. In 1893, there was a through Pullman between Norfolk, Va., and Louisville, Ky., that was carried over two railroads. The two roads were not competitors, even though they both reached the junction point to handle the same commodity. The trip took two nights and a day, with the interchange (a close connection) taking place n the early afternoon eastbound and mid-afternoon westbound. The western road shows only a car between Louisville and the interchange point, but the eastern road shows a through car (at that time, many roads did not show everything that they handled in their representations in the Guide).

Name the roads, and name the interchange point.

Johnny

[narig01]

 WAG    Souther Ry & Louisville & Nashville Interchange Knoxville, Tn

Rgds IGN

(I'm pretty sure wrong answer)

(P.S. If in 1 chance in a Million I'm right it is going to be a while til I'm back. So please continue without me. Thx IGN)

 

[Deggesty]

narig01

 WAG    Souther Ry & Louisville & Nashville Interchange Knoxville, Tn

Rgds IGN

(I'm pretty sure wrong answer)

(P.S. If in 1 chance in a Million I'm right it is going to be a while til I'm back. So please continue without me. Thx IGN)

 

Sorry, IGN, the Southern had nothing to do with it. Actually, the Southern did not exist in 1893. The Richmond & Danville and the East Tennessee, Virginia, & Georgia (the two major components of the Southern) were entirely separate operations in 1893, even though there seems to have been a through train between Salisbury, N. C., and Knoxville. The Atlantic & Danville was in operation from Portsmouth (take a ferry to/from Norfolk) to Danville, but its operation was also separate from that of the R&D. The L&N did not get into Knoxville until after June, 1893, but did have a connection to Knoxville with the ETV&G in Jellico, Tenn. It would have taken three distinct roads, and much more time, to have used what became the Southern Railway to connect with the L&N. It could have been done in 1916, using the ferry from Norfolk to Portsmouth, but it wasn"t.

A good guess, considering what changes (construction, merging, etc.) were made in the twenty-five years or so after the date given.

Johnny

[CShaveRR]

How about Deepwater, West Virginia, between the Virginian and the New York Central System.

[Deggesty]

CShaveRR

How about Deepwater, West Virginia, between the Virginian and the New York Central System.

Sorry, Carl,  not even a Between the Acts cigar; you are a bit early with the Virginian (the first date I have for it is 1907; it took Mr. Rogers some time to amass his money, working with John D. Rockefeller, before building his railroad), and the NYC system was not yet in Louisville (trackage rights over the B&O from North Vernon came by 1916). You do have the right junction for the two roads, and the Virginian did go into Norfolk on land. In 1916, the Virginian had through club car service between Roanoke and Huntington, using the C&O west of Deepwater (the C&O train ran between Deepwater and Ashland).

Johnny

[wanswheel]

N&W to C&O at Waynesboro?

[CShaveRR]

Well, C&O and N&W were competitors. Sorry, I missed the date, and knew the VGN was later than 1893. How about N&W and B&O (or its predecessor) at Cincinnati?

[al-in-chgo]

Did the first leg involve the OLD Norfolk Southern, that had ceased to exist long before the 1982 NS was formed??   -  a.s. 

 

[Deggesty]

CShaveRR

Well, C&O and N&W were competitors. Sorry, I missed the date, and knew the VGN was later than 1893. How about N&W and B&O (or its predecessor) at Cincinnati?

Ummm, what commodity was moved out of Cincinnati? Soap? Aside from that, the N&W did not acquire the Cincinnati, Portsmouth and Virginia (Cincinnati-Portsmouth) until 1901.

Both of the roads have been posited in one or another answer. Now, determine which is which, and where they met.

Johnny

[Deggesty]

al-in-chgo

Did the first leg involve the OLD Norfolk Southern, that had ceased to exist long before the 1982 NS was formed??   -  a.s. 

No, Al, in 1893, the N&S was strictly a tidewater road, going south and then into colonial settlements in North Carolina. It was one of the three roads that did enter Norfolk on rails; the ACL may have operated a carferry between Norfolk and Pinners Point, but I am not sure; the SAL and A&D relied on passenger ferries to cross the Elizabeth River, and the C&O did not ferry passenger cars across Hampton Roads.

Johnny

[Deggesty]

Deggesty

Both of the roads have been posited in one or another answer. Now, determine which is which, and where they met.

The interchange was in a town located in an area which provided a commodity that was, and is, extremely important to everybody in our nation. I handled the commodity quite a bit when I was in college.

Johnny

[al-in-chgo]

Deggesty

Deggesty

Both of the roads have been posited in one or another answer. Now, determine which is which, and where they met.

The interchange was in a town located in an area which provided a commodity that was, and is, extremely important to everybody in our nation. I handled the commodity quite a bit when I was in college.

Johnny

 

 

Was it Fort Knox, Kentucky?  -  a.s.

 

[henry6]

I don't think he is talking about money...beer is more likely...towns like Golden, Colorado and Latrobe, PA come to mind...or Iron City someplace....but beer is the commodity, not money I'm sure.

[CShaveRR]

To review: the only one of the three eastern railroads that hasn't been eliminated is the N&W. For the western railroad we've eliminated the Southern (not yet formed), NYC (trackage rights), C&O (a competitor), PRR (not previously mentioned--at Columbus), leaving only the B&O at either Portsmouth or Kenova. I can't think of any commodity I would have handled in college that railroads would have come from non-competing directions to obtain.

Bracing myself for the bonk on the head I'm sure I'll have to inflict once the answer is revealed...

[Deggesty]

CShaveRR

To review: the only one of the three eastern railroads that hasn't been eliminated is the N&W. For the western railroad we've eliminated the Southern (not yet formed), NYC (trackage rights), C&O (a competitor), PRR (not previously mentioned--at Columbus), leaving only the B&O at either Portsmouth or Kenova. I can't think of any commodity I would have handled in college that railroads would have come from non-competing directions to obtain.

Bracing myself for the bonk on the head I'm sure I'll have to inflict once the answer is revealed...

Oh, Carl. You did not list another road to the west that was mentioned early on. If you're not working tomorrow, I guess you may bonk yourself.

As to the commodity, I was the only student who handled it regularly during the regular sessions of the college; several of us did handle it in the summer when it was delivered (that was hot work, especially in the room that had a five hundred gallon tank of hot water in it). For almost two years, I went around the campus at night, making sure that enough was in the right places. One commodity that was mentioned was forbidden on campus.  I must tell Al - in - Chgo that it would have been nice if I had had a goodly supply of Fort Knox's commodity--I would not have had to work during the summers, but could have toured the country, adding many routes that are now long gone.

Johnny

[wanswheel]

L&N at Norton?

[al-in-chgo]

Freon thru Kenova, WV? 

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

L&N at Norton?

A corona corona to Mike!. The commodity is coal. For most of my first two years in college, I went around every night to make certain that the stokers (four of them) were full and the two boilers without automatic inlet valves had enough water in them, and I also cleaned the fires on Sundays. Coal was delivered in the summer ($7 a ton, delivered from the minehead), and students working on the ground crew were sent into the coal bins to throw the coal aganst the far walls as the driver shoveled it into the bins. The bin in the men's dormitory had the hot water tank in it (it was heated during summer school).

One Saturday night in my last semester, the House President (a student) came up to my room at midnight with the awful report that a steam pipe had burst in the basement. I went down, and discovered the problem. You do not notice a steam leak in an overhead radiator, but you do notice hot water when it drips on you. I knew immediately what had happened (I had done the same, myself, with another furnace). The boy who then had the responsibility had come back after an off-campus basketball game (he was the scorekeepr), and thought the janitor had not left enough water in the boiler, so he opened the inlet valve. After filling the stoker, he went on to his next furnace. So, I put a pair of pants and my peacoat on, went out and around to the boiler room, closed the inlet valve, and opened an inch-an-a-half valve--which I closed an hour later (there was a lot of water in the steam lines) and then went back to bed. Monday morning, I told the building and grounds superintendent that he owed me an hour, and he laughed at me (we were on excellent terms).

Al - in - chgo--was freon of value in 1893?

So, Mike, you have the opportunity to give us a question.

Johnny

[al-in-chgo]

From prior post:  "Al - in - chgo--was freon of value in 1893?" 

Doubt it.  But that's not the only reason I should be flagellating myself.  I know that ex-C&O mainline and ex-N&W mainline cross at Kenova, but I know as well that it's a non-communicating cross:  the now-NS line "flies over"the now-CSX at Kenova; if what I've read about the lines s true the the NS is basically the beginning of NS' bridge over the Ohio River. Easy transfer is not an issue.

Also,  I lived in Norton in the late Seventies.  All I knew coming from it was coal and coke, so I didn't think there would be anything special about Norton coal. N&W to L&N -- both termini, giving reason to transfer.  Only the Southern ran thru IIRC.  So much of that is gone now. -  a.s.