Trespassers 'outraged' at getting tickets

[Ulrich]

I don't do drugs at all. Glad (I guess)to hear you don't do them that much..yes...just funnin..but the Ann Landers crowd here has me beat down pretty good.

I also speed sometimes...did 72 in a 60 zone today.. flame away!!!!!

 

 

 

[Ted Marshall]

  There's nothing egtistical about my position..again...we're talking about WALKING along the right of way...I learn alot more by doing that than by reading annual reports.

I don't care if you are the biggest shareholder in the company.   You ask permission before you step on the property, AND, you abide by all applicable safety rules, and wear the proper P.P.E.   And you had better have proper authorization papers.   

My employer says, you see an intruder, a tresspasser, drop the dime.    If you see someone who is on the property, you have the absolute right to request that person for his Company I.D.   If they refuse, call the Manager on-duty, Dispatcher, or the local police.   No arguements, no confrontations,  just drop the dime, end of conversation.  

 It is the duty of every employee to carry their company I.D. at all times when on the property, and to offer it to others if requested.   Those are the rules.   Even the CEO wears his company I.D. so no one is exempt.  

 You sir, need to stay off the property unless you have explicit permission to be there.  I don't care who you are. 

Yes... Proper P.P.E. is very important, on or off railroad property.

[Ulrich]

Don't tell me..tell every graffiti artist out there (apparently they don't know or care). As stated earlier I don't have a problem with the rules...I really don't trespass that much.

We don't have a problem with those who deface cars out here.   If caught, they face the same thing you would if caught.

There's your problem...a little word....IF caught...IF IF IF.. take off those rose colored glasses and smell the soy...you'll find that you've got your share of artists out there too.

[BaltACD]

I'm the only taxpayer who owns my house...so no other taxpayer has the right to enter..

And no other taxpayer has the 'right' to trespass on railroad property, including you!

[Ulrich]

But sometimes (rarely) I do anyway...so give me a ticket.

[gardendance]

The original post never said how Marya Dunlap-Brown trespassed. Did she walk across the tracks in front of a moving train? Did she climb over the couplers between 2 cars while a locomotive was banging into the end of the string of cars? Or did she walk along the grass at the edge of the ballast? I hope there are folks out there who will agree that morally some of these scenarios are less repugnant than others, and some of those scenarios deserve a ticket more than others.

 One post claimed Mr Ulrich pulling a spike is vandalism. I'd agree if he used a pry bar to get the spike out. If he pulled it out with his bare hand though I think that spike, and probably the tie itself, wasn't doing much good, so no harm, no foul. Again I think, ie. in my opinion.

[zugmann]

I hate trolls....

[RRKen]

Don't tell me..tell every graffiti artist out there (apparently they don't know or care). As stated earlier I don't have a problem with the rules...I really don't trespass that much.

We don't have a problem with those who deface cars out here.   If caught, they face the same thing you would if caught.

There's your problem...a little word....IF caught...IF IF IF.. take off those rose colored glasses and smell the soy...you'll find that you've got your share of artists out there too.

 

Artists?   You mean criminals.   I am willing to bet you would feel ill used if we dropped by your home and property to deface it.  

 Cars in rural service have a 99.99999999% chance of never getting trashed by criminals.   Of the over 10,000 DDGs cars out there, most are not spray painted by miscreants.    Sorry old sock.  

[Ulrich]

And trust me..you'd feel ill used too if you dropped by my home and defaced it.

 I never defended graffiti painters (criminals)..we're on the same page...

[ButchKnouse]

The original post never said how Marya Dunlap-Brown trespassed. Did she walk across the tracks in front of a moving train? Did she climb over the couplers between 2 cars while a locomotive was banging into the end of the string of cars? Or did she walk along the grass at the edge of the ballast? I hope there are folks out there who will agree that morally some of these scenarios are less repugnant than others, and some of those scenarios deserve a ticket more than others.

 One post claimed Mr Ulrich pulling a spike is vandalism. I'd agree if he used a pry bar to get the spike out. If he pulled it out with his bare hand though I think that spike, and probably the tie itself, wasn't doing much good, so no harm, no foul. Again I think, ie. in my opinion.

It sounds like the cops are writing tickets left and right. They wouldn't get involved unless it was turning into a major problem.

If people are simply trying to get across and the crossings are too far away, then perhaps the city should build a footbridge with the ticket money.

[Anonymous]

Quick question: 

Why has trespassing become such a hot issue all of a sudden?  Is it all in reaction to 911?

[CNW 6000]

[Ulrich]

I can understand why the railroads wouldn't want trespassers on their property...In part the heightened level of enforcement may be due to security..but I'm sure there are also liability concerns...

I accept this (hey..I don't have a choice)..but I miss the old days when we kids could freely roam the yards, get cab rides, and talk to the rail workers. It was great to be a kid in the 70s let me tell you.. I feel a little sorry for the kids today...

 

 

[zugmann]

No, it is not security. 

It is L-I-A-B-I-L-I-T-Y.  Somewhere along the line, moronic juries decided that people that got hurt doing stupid stuff deserve millions.  

[selector]

It may not be purposeful, but I feel strongly that ethics and liability are co-incident in this matter.  Knowing that people are largely ignorant of much of the world around them, except for what may be one or two specialties and strong interests (such as a hobby....like railfanning), the ethical thing to do is to do what can be done reasonably (that term is debatable) to keep people from harm.  That would include those who unwittingly trespass, or who do it out of urgent and immediate necessity...a woman with two toddlers is stalked by a pack of ornery and aggressive roving dogs (happened to my wife once).  But, there is also the liability, as has been stated, and I feel that is the singular driving pressure behind the enforcement.  For purely cost-benefit reasons, it behooves those who are responsible for such things to keep the public from incursions onto territory for which liability is a burden to corporations.  We all know that garages post signs forbidding customers from entering service bays, and for good reason.  Even so, if a customer stumbles upon entering the client counter area, and the facility is ostensibly to blame in even a small way for the mishap, it will be costly.

[CSXDixieLine]

Time for work.  Later, troll.

HAHAHAHA! No need for me to even move on to page three of this thread...maximum entertainment value achieved with this single post!

[RRKen]

And trust me..you'd feel ill used too if you dropped by my home and defaced it.

 I never defended graffiti painters (criminals)..we're on the same page...

 

They why the moniker of "artist"?   That word has a connotation of being worth something.   Taggers are just kids who don't parents.

[Ulrich]

I agree..but I didn't name them that..that's what they're generally called. BTW...some of the graffiti stuff isn't bad...some folks are clearly wasting great talent...

[RRKen]

Quick question: 

Why has trespassing become such a hot issue all of a sudden?  Is it all in reaction to 911?

 

As Zugman said, Liability.  

 I for July,  for every railfan seen, we had 11 trespassers a day on the average around the yard.   I noted that on one day, 21 people using the yard as a short cut.      Just for the mere reason they  did not want to walk up the overpass.  

Twice in July, we had people, non-employees,  walking across the service tracks to take photos.  Twice in July, we had people on ATV's on the tracks of an industrial lead (arrested finally, ATV's confiscated for reasons other than trespassing).     Attempted theft of wire in town, three cases, one subject detained (caught in the act by a signal maintainer).   Five kids playing chicken on a RR bridge in town.   Four cases of illegal dumping.   One case of attempted theft of bridge bolts (foreman interupted him).    One case of stolen ties.   One case of damage to warning devices (arrested for various warrants).   Attempted theft of a stop sign  (held by police for warrants).  One case of shopping cart left on tracks (now scrap).  One case of a brush fire started on the property.  Numerous people chased off of railroad property because they were trying to hop a train coming from a "hobo convention".    No count on the number of near misses at grade crossings in town.  

Thanks to MCPD and all crafts involved for the information.  

Does this answer the question?  

[zugmann]

 

  One case of shopping cart left on tracks (now scrap). 

 

We had that happen on our last trip home.  Hitting a shopping cart at 50mph in a dash-9 sure makes a lot of noise (and dust). Was hung up under the front truck, but got kicked out by the time we stopped to inspect the engine.   

[morseman]

I wrote a while ago about Provincial police in Ontario patrolling Hwy 400 with aircraft enabling them to nab speeders.     Minimum fine is $2,000 with car confiscated for several weeks, and demerit marks added to their licence, which will increase their insurance.    Maximum fine is   get this    Maximum fine $10,000 with car confiscated permanently.     Loss of licence I believe for five years & imagine what their insurance will cost when they are able to drive again.    This for speeding, drunk driving, tail-gating, etc.

Reason I'm stating the above is that in all the posts abour rr trespassing, I very seldom see what the penalties are?     Are they very severe or just a slap on the wrist?

[TimChgo9]

We have a perfectly good, perfectly new pedestrian underpass about midway between Wolf Rd, and Gilbert Ave, and yet for every person who uses it, there is at least one who crosses the tracks between either crossing and the underpass.  The biggest violators being the local bicycle riders, who for some reason, would rather shoulder their bike and walk across the tracks, instead of riding under the underpass......

It was inconvenient to walk to either crossing, and now it's too inconvenient to walk to the underpass. 

[videomaker]

Issuing tickets doesn't work...look at the graffiti murals that must take hours to paint...

Besides...how much public taxpayer money is invested in railroads? And CSX (as well as others) are asking for more to improve infrastructure. If the taxpayer is putting money into the business then the taxpayer has a right to walk along its right of way (within reason)...just my opinion.  If you're going to take a hard line with me just for being on your property then don't take my money.

Look at this way,CSX could be paying the city to have their officers write ticket on CXS propety and CSX will send an attorney to the court dockets to defend the rr position..The judge will proably rule for the city and it will be a win win for both Charolottsville and CSX..If it goes to court and the def. ask for a jury trial,then you take your chances with a jury.. 

[Beach Bill]

Reason I'm stating the above is that in all the posts abour rr trespassing, I very seldom see what the penalties are?     Are they very severe or just a slap on the wrist?

I didn't keep my Code of Virginia volumes when I retired from policing, and haven't gone on-line to verify, but from what I recall: 

In Virginia, Trespassing is a "Class 1 Misdemeanor", with a maximum possible penalty of up to 1 year in jail and/or a fine of up to $1,000.    In APPLICATION, the penalties are usually a fine only of $100 or less.   Usually, penalties are only higher than that for repeat offenders.  General District Courts almost universally allow people to set up a payment plan to pay their fine if requested.  Also, there is a provision in Virginia Code that allows a property owner to sign a document allowing local law enforcement to represent them in court on trespassing charges.  The Officer issuing the summons would testify in court about how the property was posted, that the offender was present on that property without authorization, and that it was in a location within the jurisdiction of that court.  That way, the property owner (CSX) doesn't have to send a paid representative to every court appearance of multiple offenders.

 Bill

[gardendance]

I hate trolls....

your post came right after mine. Are you responding to me? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the terminology, what do you mean?

The police department's effort to crack down on trespassing has netted numerous tickets. On Aug. 28, 58 alleged trespassers made the court list.

 

It sounds like the cops are writing tickets left and right. They wouldn't get involved unless it was turning into a major problem.

ButchKnouse, I'm assuming you're expressing your opinion, you think it's a major problem because the cops are getting involved, but the only quotes in the article are

According to Operation Lifesaver, 486 pedestrians died last year after being hit by trains

please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't operation lifesaver a national program, that's 468 pedestrians nationwide?

The police department's effort to crack down on trespassing has netted numerous tickets. On Aug. 28, 58 alleged trespassers made the court list.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a county court? So we're talking about tickets for the entire county, wouldn't that be several independent police departments and county sherrif? And what does "made the court list" mean? The way the paragraph's written I can see how one would get the impression that some maverick cop wrote 58 tickets in one day.

I'm guessing it's more likely to be how many tickets are outstanding, awaiting some sort of resolution with the court. What's the relationship between that number and the number of tickets issued in an average day? That's less than 1 ticket a day for 2 months. Don't speeding tickets and jaywalking citations allow a month or so for you to pay the fine? If that's the case I'd be surprised if a normal court list would have less than 58 items on it for normal 1 a day countywide enforcement, and I wouldn't consider that a crackdown.

However getting back to your idea that there is a major problem, it's not necessarily the trespassing that's the problem. There is also the phenomenon that there was some more serious suspected offense, for example vandalism, but not enough evidence to charge the person whom the cops saw walking away from the broken switchstand. When the feds put Al Capone in prison for tax evasion it didn't necessarily mean that they were cracking down on tax evaders.

[selector]

GD, zugmann's post wasn't directed at you.  It was for an earlier poster whom he thinks is deliberately posting inflammatory comments designed to stirr things up.  The term troll is used for those who jump around on forums and try to cause trouble, then flee when they have done what they set out to do and search for more fertile ground.  FWIW, I don't believe the person to whom he referred is a troll, but exhibits troll-like behaviour when it meets his needs.  It is in keeping, or consistent, with his utilitarian ethics that he expressed earlier when he stated that he trespasses regularly because it is in his interests to do so. 

[ButchKnouse]

I hate trolls....

your post came right after mine. Are you responding to me? I'm afraid I'm not familiar with the terminology, what do you mean?

The police department's effort to crack down on trespassing has netted numerous tickets. On Aug. 28, 58 alleged trespassers made the court list.

 

It sounds like the cops are writing tickets left and right. They wouldn't get involved unless it was turning into a major problem.

ButchKnouse, I'm assuming you're expressing your opinion, you think it's a major problem because the cops are getting involved, but the only quotes in the article are

According to Operation Lifesaver, 486 pedestrians died last year after being hit by trains

please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't operation lifesaver a national program, that's 468 pedestrians nationwide?

The police department's effort to crack down on trespassing has netted numerous tickets. On Aug. 28, 58 alleged trespassers made the court list.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't that be a county court? So we're talking about tickets for the entire county, wouldn't that be several independent police departments and county sherrif? And what does "made the court list" mean? The way the paragraph's written I can see how one would get the impression that some maverick cop wrote 58 tickets in one day.

I'm guessing it's more likely to be how many tickets are outstanding, awaiting some sort of resolution with the court. What's the relationship between that number and the number of tickets issued in an average day? That's less than 1 ticket a day for 2 months. Don't speeding tickets and jaywalking citations allow a month or so for you to pay the fine? If that's the case I'd be surprised if a normal court list would have less than 58 items on it for normal 1 a day countywide enforcement, and I wouldn't consider that a crackdown.

However getting back to your idea that there is a major problem, it's not necessarily the trespassing that's the problem. There is also the phenomenon that there was some more serious suspected offense, for example vandalism, but not enough evidence to charge the person whom the cops saw walking away from the broken switchstand. When the feds put Al Capone in prison for tax evasion it didn't necessarily mean that they were cracking down on tax evaders.

My opinion is based on the facts. The local police (not the RR police) are ticketing trespassers on RR property by the dozens. Trespassing seems to happen everywhere, but this particular town has the police cracking down, which must mean there have been problems with vandalism and/or theft to the point where the local police have felt the need to step in. If they can't catch them in the act of a more serious crime, they can at least get them for trespassing  and hopefully make them think twice about getting on the RR property to begin with.

But a bridge would silence the whiners like the woman who was "outraged" by getting a ticket.

[Anonymous]

Quick question: 

Why has trespassing become such a hot issue all of a sudden?  Is it all in reaction to 911?

 

As Zugman said, Liability.  

 I for July,  for every railfan seen, we had 11 trespassers a day on the average around the yard.   I noted that on one day, 21 people using the yard as a short cut.      Just for the mere reason they  did not want to walk up the overpass.  

Twice in July, we had people, non-employees,  walking across the service tracks to take photos.  Twice in July, we had people on ATV's on the tracks of an industrial lead (arrested finally, ATV's confiscated for reasons other than trespassing).     Attempted theft of wire in town, three cases, one subject detained (caught in the act by a signal maintainer).   Five kids playing chicken on a RR bridge in town.   Four cases of illegal dumping.   One case of attempted theft of bridge bolts (foreman interupted him).    One case of stolen ties.   One case of damage to warning devices (arrested for various warrants).   Attempted theft of a stop sign  (held by police for warrants).  One case of shopping cart left on tracks (now scrap).  One case of a brush fire started on the property.  Numerous people chased off of railroad property because they were trying to hop a train coming from a "hobo convention".    No count on the number of near misses at grade crossings in town.  

Thanks to MCPD and all crafts involved for the information.  

Does this answer the question?  

I understand that liability is the main reason that railroads enforce no trespassing laws.  My question asks what has changed since the 1960-1980 period, for instance, that has placed the trespassing issue on the front burner.  Perhaps it is because there are more people and more trespassing today than in the past.  But, even so, that trespass increase would have happened gradually, whereas the trespassing enforcement issued seems to have exploded onto the scene just recently.

[jeffhergert]

I would say what has changed is more lawyers, not to offend those of that profession. 

That and the rise of "I am not responsible for my actions."  Which leads to lawsuits when someone is injured on someone else's property without permission to be there.

Jeff  

[TimChgo9]

Quick question: 

Why has trespassing become such a hot issue all of a sudden?  Is it all in reaction to 911?

 

As Zugman said, Liability.  

 I for July,  for every railfan seen, we had 11 trespassers a day on the average around the yard.   I noted that on one day, 21 people using the yard as a short cut.      Just for the mere reason they  did not want to walk up the overpass.  

Twice in July, we had people, non-employees,  walking across the service tracks to take photos.  Twice in July, we had people on ATV's on the tracks of an industrial lead (arrested finally, ATV's confiscated for reasons other than trespassing).     Attempted theft of wire in town, three cases, one subject detained (caught in the act by a signal maintainer).   Five kids playing chicken on a RR bridge in town.   Four cases of illegal dumping.   One case of attempted theft of bridge bolts (foreman interupted him).    One case of stolen ties.   One case of damage to warning devices (arrested for various warrants).   Attempted theft of a stop sign  (held by police for warrants).  One case of shopping cart left on tracks (now scrap).  One case of a brush fire started on the property.  Numerous people chased off of railroad property because they were trying to hop a train coming from a "hobo convention".    No count on the number of near misses at grade crossings in town.  

Thanks to MCPD and all crafts involved for the information.  

Does this answer the question?  

I understand that liability is the main reason that railroads enforce no trespassing laws.  My question asks what has changed since the 1960-1980 period, for instance, that has placed the trespassing issue on the front burner.  Perhaps it is because there are more people and more trespassing today than in the past.  But, even so, that trespass increase would have happened gradually, whereas the trespassing enforcement issued seems to have exploded onto the scene just recently.

I remember back in the 1970's when I was a kid, we could pretty much go anywhere around the CNW and the IC tracks that were near by... The IHB was different story.  Their policies regarding trespassers have always been tough. 

My brother and I used to walk to Proviso Yard from time to time, back when we were in 6th and 7th grade (This would be about 1978) and we would hang out at the Berkely Station, but also kind of wander around the area inside the yard right by the station.  On a couple of occasions some of the yard folks would come over and talk to us, or show us what was going on.  We never walked on locomotives, cars, or went places that we knew were dangerous, but we did walk around a bit.  Same at the ICG, I remember the local was switching into the S&H facility there in Hillside, and the crew let my friends and I help throw the switch to the spur one time.  The crews were always friendly, and when they could, would chat with us about their jobs. 

I don't know what the changes were that caused the "less tolerant" attitude.  I suppose it's just the general change in society, more people becoming less predictable, more litigious, and generally, less caring about the world around them.  I remember my neighborhood growing up, and it was a place where everyone knew everyone else, and the neighbors all look out for one another.  It's not like that anymore in alot of places.  There is less trust, less honesty, and less other things.  Perhaps, when the railroads were more lenient, people began to take advantage of them, and problems began to occur, and they figured, in order to protect themselves, and their property, they figured they had to crackdown. 

If they felt the need to do that, that's fine, it's their property, and their business, and they have every right to protect it, using whatever reasonable measures are available to them. It is a bit sad that the open-ness is gone, but, that's the way things go.  

Growing up, I was taught that trains were dangerous, and that screwing around by the tracks was a sure route to injury or worse..... I guess in this day and age, some people either don't get it, won't get it, or just don't care.  

As far as trespassing enforcement "exploding" in recent years, perhaps that's true, but one only has to look to 9/11 for the reason.