hmm should have come west to deshler.There are some definate no no places around fostoria.F tower being one of them.Both CSX and NS have had problems with those taking pictures and the general public tresspassing on their property.They also watch their neighboors property (like gm security does here defiance).The thing to do is mind your P's and q's and move on.Fostoria has alot more picture opprotunities than just the east end of blair yard.It would also be a good idea to stay away from the auto mixing center off of rt 12 as well.
stay safe
joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
well i hope you just didnt get someone fired due to them doing there job.. contrary to what rail fans would want to think.. we railroaders are told to confront and discourge photos of key loctions on railroad proporty for sercurity reasons.. and as for your look like a terrorist comment.. was timmy mcvay (sp) look like a terrorist to you? but he was a home grown demestic one..so yes ANYONE can look and be a terrorist....this is why we are tought what we are thought.. where you where taking pics might have been in the eyes of NS a key area and dosnt want it photographed..
csx engineer
.....Sure must be a fine line how to railfan anymore.....judging from what Kevin has written of his experience...I have to side with him.
Being located off RR property and vehicle parked off RR property, and standing out in the plain view to do a bit of railfaning, shouldn't exhibit terrorist characteristics.
I understand the RR employee's must have a directory to conform to from their employer to "take care of their operations on their property", but they too must use some common sense.
Sorry, I can't see that Ken was doing anything illegal if there are in fact no laws dictating the use of cameras and portable scanners in that community....What did he do wrong.....?
I don't blame him for expressing his frustration.
Quentin
its not a question of him being on public proporty or not.. it is a fact that the railroads have assessed security risks and feel that some things on the proporty can be considered possable targets for attack.. as i said befor we as employees in this post 9-11 day and age are to discourge pic taking of what the railroad as deamed as off limits regardless if it is someone taking it from a public road or not.. go try and take a pic of an oil refinery or a chemical plant and see what happens even if your on public proporty... and the same thing applys to the railroad.. what this person feels he was doing wasnt wrong but there might have been something near by that they dont want you to take a pic of..they dont know what your taking pics of.. no one thought the hijackers of the planes befor 9-11 takeing flight lessons at a public fight school where threats either till it was to late.. the might not have been a threat..but what about that one person that is and is gathering intelicane for a possable attack down the road.. the person that tried to discourge the pics was in the right becouse of the above statement reagarding possable target statement.. just becouse someone dosnt look like the "sterio typical" terrorist donst mean that someone isnt one.. a terrorist can be a railfan just as easy as not be one too and the railroads arnt willing to take the risk of "oh its just a crazy foamer there..dont worry about it" anymore on public proproty or not...
....I suppose the suggestion {in another post}, regarding "being hassled", and if the person so thought he was, to go and call the police to have a direction from them whether he was violating any laws at the location he was "fanning" from.
I wonder what a court of law would decide if the facts were just as Kevin described then above in his post.......?
Modelcar
I have found that is eaisier to mind your P"S and Q's and move on.There are other places to take pictures of trains.Did he have the "closed buissness owners permission" to park his vehicle in their parking lot. More than likely a deputy would have come and just asked him to leave anyway.
i just hope that a fellow railroad employee dosnt get in some kind of trouble for what i feel is an over reaction to being asked not to take pics.. granted she might have gone about it alittle bit more tactfull but no everyone will... if she dose end up on some kind of suspention as a ressult of this "letter" it is one more reason for railroaders to have a contempt for rail fans if you ask me..
Kevin,
Sorry about your incident. Marion is definitely railfan friendly. With the two sets of double-diamonds, it's about as close to the action as you can get - both with your camera AND your ears.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Quentin is right, it is a fine line nowadays.... and CSXengineer is correct as well in his comment "Just try taking photos of a refinery, even if you are on public property"..... I had an experience last summer (related in 2 other forum threads) where I was taking photos of the BNSF from a bridge adjacent to a refinery, and I was stopped and questioned by the refinery security and the local police.
One must mind their P's and Q's these days. To be honest a terrorist doing reconnaisance is going to do his level best to look as harmless as possible. They will go to lengths to blend in and look as innocuous as possible to anyone who might be casually observing them. No Islamic terrorist is going to go around gathering information looking like, well, a terrorist. Whenever I am confronted, or asked to leave, I simply do that, I leave. Am I letting my "rights" be violated? No, I don't think so, I am just avoiding a stupid argument. There are hundreds of locations for photography around here, I am not going to sweat it if a railroad cop, or local cop says "leave".
I have found, in general, that local law enforcement, as well as Railroad Police will go easy on you if you are cooperative. If you start arguing, then the cop is going to figure you have something to hide, and is going to make sure the questioning takes place somewhere other than trackside.
As far as the woman at the NS yard office... she may have been acting on instructions from a supervisor, or, she just didn't want you around, or she was just doing her job. Was she incorrect about the scanner and the taking of photos? Of course she was, but arguing with her would have made it worse.
csxengineer98 wrote: well i hope you just didnt get someone fired due to them doing there job.. csx engineer
well i hope you just didnt get someone fired due to them doing there job..
csxengineer98 wrote:well i hope you just didnt get someone fired due to them doing there job.. contrary to what rail fans would want to think.. we railroaders are told to confront and discourge photos of key loctions on railroad proporty for sercurity reasons.. and as for your look like a terrorist comment.. was timmy mcvay (sp) look like a terrorist to you? but he was a home grown demestic one..so yes ANYONE can look and be a terrorist....this is why we are tought what we are thought.. where you where taking pics might have been in the eyes of NS a key area and dosnt want it photographed.. csx engineer
I don't know about CSX but, my railroad doesn't want us to confront people for OUR safety. We can ask/suggest that they leave but confrontations are for the railroad police to handle. In this day and age if you get mouthy with the wrong guy(s) and you might end up with holes in you.
Get used to it.
Since 9/11 we have devolved into a neurotic paranoid society who's obsession with "security" borders on mental illness, and it gets more bizarre every day.
We just recently passed the one million person milestone on the list of people who need to be extra hassled before deciding whether they should be allowed on an airplane, and a school district in Texas just voted to arm their teachers and staff with concealed handguns.
I'm glad I am old. I am sad for my grandchildren. But then, since they don't remember the days when we had protections from runaway government, they probably won't miss it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
...."Get used to it"....sure maybe we'll have to. But this is still the land of freedom. If you think you have been "wronged"....Stick up for yourself and find out if you have....If you care to get into all you must to do so. We aren't yet destined to be "bossed" and "dictated" by RR employees regardless if you're not even close to their property.
Their property and work area....Stay away from it. That is their work area and responsibility, but beyond that we have a right to question someone "bullying" us what we can do.
I have to agree with several that suggest...."just leave, etc....", sure if you have your mind set on railfanning that day, leave and go somewhere else as opposed to confrontation.
We all have our Freedom rights yet and if you want to maintain them, speak up in court if you must, that is if you feel you must challange.
I've read over the replies to my original post, and I have some additional thoughts on the matter.
I can understand if somebody is being cautious and just checking me out to see what I am up to, but the employee in question did not do that. She only said that my railfanning activities were illegal, which is flat out not true. Had she either had me checked out or said that I could not take pictures from that location or of those facilities, it would have been different, but she implied that taking pictures of any trains was a possible act of terrorism and threatened to call me in.
I also want to say that it was not my intent by my letter to get anybody "fired". Whatever course of action, if any, Norfolk Southern decides to take, it is up to them, not me. This woman was there addressing me, the public, and casting herself as a representative of the company she worked for. She didn't just say that I wasn't allowed to take pictures of the yard there. She said that I wasn't allowed to listen to their radio frequencies or take pictures of their trains, which would imply that it goes for anywhere on Norfolk Southern.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
I'd be interested in know just how hard the original poster was at trying to be inconspicuous while he was fanning.
From the description of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.
In short, you drew attention to yourself.
You should have been more aware of your surroundings. Clearly from your description you were not.
csxengineer98 wrote: i just hope that a fellow railroad employee dosnt get in some kind of trouble for what i feel is an over reaction to being asked not to take pics.. granted she might have gone about it alittle bit more tactfull but no everyone will... if she dose end up on some kind of suspention as a ressult of this "letter" it is one more reason for railroaders to have a contempt for rail fans if you ask me..csx engineer
It would have been much better for this employee to have said something like "We've been told by our employer to report anyone taking pictures here or with a scanner to the railroad or local police" rather than to improperly quote the laws (this fellow was NOT doing anything illegal from what I just read.
I am still irritated with this subject.
No cameras, no scanners, on private property - two different locations - and yet some young man in a BNSF truck yelled at us - both locations. BNSF wanted railfans to look out for their property and call in problems and all was kiss-kiss, hug-hug and then they send out employees who have no clue how to handle public relations.
I am all for safety, respecting property and will work very hard to abide by the rules. But don't send out some nasty-attitude railroad person to expound the position of "9/11, homeland security and who would want to sit and watch someone working anyway?" A courteous explanation and reasons why - even on private property - would have been end of story for us. We would have moved, been pleased to do so and spread the word among others what the rules were. Just like good BNSF watchers.
If railroads are going to send out "enforcers" then teach them some civility and tact - not just to go out and threaten people!
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Murray wrote: I'd be interested in know just how hard the original poster was at trying to be inconspicuous while he was fanning.From the dsescription of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.In short, you drew attention to yourself. You should have been more aware of your surroundings. Clearly from your description you were not.
From the dsescription of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.
So, when I'm out railfanning again, I need to act secretive and suspicious? I'd be more suspicious of somebody who says that they're railfanning and doesn't look the part (ie. no scanner, camera, or anything to suggest what they are doing there).
And I was well aware of my surroundings. I was aware of the yard offices being right there. However, there are no signs or anything that I could see that prohibited photography from that street. The only signs I saw prohibiting any illegal activities there were the signs that said "No Trespassing N&W Rwy".
I could go either way on this one, depending on how I am railfanning. I have 2 basic styles of railfanning. When I am traveling (alot lately) I am usually going from point A to B and doing hit and run railfanning along the way. When this is the case I am usually not in one spot long enough to be suspicious to anyone and would be long gone by the time a LEO could respond. If something like this happened I would most likley not wan't to spend the time dealing with it anyway.
Then there is my other style, find a good spot, set up the chair(s), break out the cooler, ect.,and watch the show. If a similar incident happend then I would stand my ground (unless instructed to leave by someone WITH the authority to do so). I'm not saying this is the best way to handle it, but it is the way I would. I'm not one to be pushed around and I hate to see it happen to others. I hate it when good people allow the authorities to bully them around, especially those that only think they have authurity. I'm not saying this always happens. I'm just saying stand your ground, have a backbone. So what if a LEO questions you. I don't want to have to answer a bunch of questions either, but really what is the big deal. I would rather have that then see us loose more rights (or freedoms if you rather) simply by allowing it to happen by doing nothing.
As to the original post...Kevin, I think what you did was warranted. If my employee (either as a owner or manager) was acting that unproffessionaly representing my company I would certainly want to know about it. There are so many ways she could have been more professional about it.
chatanuga wrote:So, when I'm out railfanning again, I need to act secretive and suspicious? I'd be more suspicious of somebody who says that they're railfanning and doesn't look the part (ie. no scanner, camera, or anything to suggest what they are doing there). And I was well aware of my surroundings. I was aware of the yard offices being right there. However, there are no signs or anything that I could see that prohibited photography from that street. The only signs I saw prohibiting any illegal activities there were the signs that said "No Trespassing N&W Rwy".
No, that's not what I said. Your "actions" brought attention to yourself. Thats why the lady yelled at you.
And since when is it a requirement to have cameras, scanners etc when you railfan? I do it all the time and usually have none of those items with me.
chad thomas wrote: I think what you did was warranted. If my employee (either as a owner or manager) was acting that unproffessionaly representing my company I would certainly want to know about it. There are so many ways she could have been more professional about it.
OK, now just how are you in a position to judge how "professional" a person acts on the job?
Many times on this very forum, we have read instances where, for example, a policeman comes up and asks someone ot leave, and the railfan develops a case of "the nerve of that guy" attitude.
I would also point out that we on have one persons side of the story here. We don't have ALL the facts. Unless or until we do, I would not lay blame entirely on the railroad employee.
Murray wrote: chad thomas wrote: I think what you did was warranted. If my employee (either as a owner or manager) was acting that unproffessionaly representing my company I would certainly want to know about it. There are so many ways she could have been more professional about it.OK, now just how are you in a position to judge how "professional" a person acts on the job?Many times on this very forum, we have read instances where, for example, a policeman comes up and asks someone ot leave, and the railfan develops a case of "the nerve of that guy" attitude.I would also point out that we on have one persons side of the story here. We don't have ALL the facts. Unless or until we do, I would not lay blame entirely on the railroad employee.
Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them.
I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too.
chad thomas wrote:Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them. I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too.
You're absolutely correct Chad...but as I mentioned earlier, we have but one side of the story. That does not make the railfan to be "in the right".
Without all the facts, its impossible to determine who was in the right or not.
Wow. where to start?
Let's see. The woman. You are assuming she is an employee. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. Who knows. Sure yelling at you isn't the way to go about it - but she probably didn't want to confront you (and if she was a RR employee, she was told not to confront anyone). Maybe she was having a bad day, or maybe she is a (insert derrogative term of your choosing here). But guess what? That's life.
Now the original poster. The letter was a little much. She didn't really harass you - just yelled misinformation at you. You could have smiled and waved. What's the worst that she could have done? Call the police? Meh. But to type out a long letter saying how you are the RR's eyes and ears? That is a little dramatic. Your letter will be glanced over and thrown out as soon as you bring up the fact you are a railfan. Sorry, that is the truth. Railfans get no respect from RR managers (and I'm saying this as a railfan and an employee).
So, welcome to life. Grow up and move on. You will always be taking flak for this hobby - so stop taking so much offense.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Murray wrote: chad thomas wrote:Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them. I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too. You're absolutely correct Chad...but as I mentioned earlier, we have but one side of the story. That does not make the railfan to be "in the right".Without all the facts, its impossible to determine who was in the right or not.
I agree , I didn't mean to sound like I had all the facts. It was a soapbox post
Perhaps the reason they are building the railfan park is to keep people away from the place the OP was chased out of.
But still, if they don't want photos taken there, they should put up some signs.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
Since I happen to be both a railfan and a railroad employee I have been reading this posting with much interest.
First of all, the sum total of my post 9-11 "training" on how to deal with the terorist threat consisted of a 20 minute video wich sugested that I simply ask trespassers to leave railroad property and to be weary of anyone asking questions about railroad operations. That was it, the company did not train us to confront people who were not on railroad property much less yell and threaten them. Nor did the training video sugest that scanners and cammeras in and of themselves were a threat to the company.
Railroad employees who badger railbuffs on the grounds of security are most likely using security as an excusse to be jerks. It is as simple as that I am sorry to say. Most of my coworkers either ignore railfans or welcome them with open arms. It's only a small hand full who are openly abussive to railfans, mainly because they have defective personalities. Try not to feel to bad, just imagine if you had to work alongside (or worse under) these individuals. I suspect the woman who started this subject probably jumped on some poor coworker's case about something stupid after she chased off the original poster.
As long as you are not on railroad property I would recomend ignoring these individuals, just wave to them and smile since they have no authority over you if you are not trespassing. If they do call the police, fine then just move along and come back to the same location later.
Just remember, jerks are everywhere try not to let them get you down.
Scott
I remembered this photo on my website and thought I'd post it to show where everything happened. This is originally from 1996.
The woman was on the porch of the white building behind the locomotive in the picture. I was at the stop line for the crossing on the right.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... When out railfanning, be as conspicuous as possible. Sorry Murray, but I disagree with your advice. By trying to be inconspicuous a person will lend the appearance of clandestinity, something that will warrant an all out code 3 response by the authorities if you are seen meddling about. Want to be mistaken as a possible threat? I don't.
Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk. It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
By being as conspicuous as possible and dressing appropriately, you convey the message that safety is important to you and that you wish to be seen at all times; no surprises. It also has the effect of causing passersby and undesirable element to leave you alone. This is particularly helpful, especially if you're in a not-so-friendly part of town.
Now... It's time to hear from the critics in the peanut gallery.
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
But to type out a long letter saying how you are the RR's eyes and ears? That is a little dramatic. Your letter will be glanced over and thrown out as soon as you bring up the fact you are a railfan.
Oh, one more thing. Someone in HQ will send a memo out on the fine job the Female employee did. Some VP in Legal will copy out the memo to her supervisor, with a recommendation to be promoted. (a memo from the VP is never a recommendation, what it really means is, do it yesterday).
Thus is the reality of Railroading.
Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk.
That will ring bells all over the place. A crew will dial up the DS and say, "Hey, someone out there is impersonating a railroader, that don't look right to me." DS presses his magic button in HQ, and gumshoes and the constabulary are dispatched to check out the suspicious person in a vest.
If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
RRKen wrote:If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
RRKen wrote: Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk.That will ring bells all over the place. A crew will dial up the DS and say, "Hey, someone out there is impersonating a railroader, that don't look right to me." DS presses his magic button in HQ, and gumshoes and the constabulary are dispatched to check out the suspicious person in a vest. If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
C'mon Ken... I know you're smarter than that. You know that impersonation involves telling someone that you're something that you're not and that dressing safely doesn't constitute impersonation.
And... What's that about my toast? My toast is my toast. They'd better not touch it.
But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...or a contractor where he doesn't belong.
One radio conversation I heard from a shared assets DS: "those contractors were told NOT to be on the tracks. If they are on the tracks when you go by, I'm sending out the police to arrest them!!"
DS was not happy. And I never heard the ending to the story...
Ted Marshall wrote:C'mon Ken... I know you're smarter than that. You know that impersonation involves telling someone that you're something that you're not and that dressing safely doesn't constitute impersonation.
I am? Heck my brothers and I going down the tracks don't know what the heck you are. Are you a manager testing? Are you MoW, (in which case we need to use whistle and bell going by you)?
If no one has any information about you, we drop the dime. That get up has all the makings of either a managers testing, or impersonation. Personally we don't care, it's our jobs. If I blow by you, and someone notices I did not do as I was supposed to, I get the brownie points.
Try this on. I see a guy, with a blue shirt and blue pants, he has something shiney pinned above his pocket, what is he???????? If that is too deep, try this. Do you go to the police station dressed as a cop, to take photos of their squad cars???????? Do you go to a military installation dressed in fatigues to get shots of the tanks and hummers?
You are dressed out of the ordinary, and stick out like a stalk of corn in a bean field.
zugmann wrote:But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...
Allow me to refer you to what I stated in my reply to Ken:
Ted Marshall wrote:It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
There's a product that might have a market:
A vest or t-shirt that says "RAILFAN" in large reflective letters.
I agree that someone who LOOKS like a RR employee on or near RR property should be politely checked out.
I agree that someone ON RR property can be politely ordered off or even arrested if they have climbed a fence, passed a no trespassing sign, or are tampering with RR stuff.
HOWEVER...
When a person or company is operating their business in plain view of the public, they have no expectation of privacy and therefore no right to try to prevent viewing or photographing from a place where a person peacefully conducting himself has a right to be. They do, of course, have the right to control any commercial use of the images.
It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple. Nothing really wrong with it. You can get to more places with a clipboard than with a set of bolt cutters. I bet you can drive around rr yards all day if you have a white jeep cherokee, too. Kind of like the wannabes that drive ford police interceptors with spotlights and grill guards.
And no, I don't think railfans are going to start dressing up like MOW anytime soon. Usually the $1000 camera is hint enough for me.
Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote:But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...Allow me to refer you to what I stated in my reply to Ken: Ted Marshall wrote:It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
They also have the right to ask reasonable questions from those people. You also have the right to tell them to pound sand... I wouldn't advise that, but...
Phoebe Vet wrote:When a person or company is operating their business in plain view of the public, they have no expectation of privacy and therefore no right to try to prevent viewing or photographing from a place where a person peacefully conducting himself has a right to be. They do, of course, have the right to control any commercial use of the images.
RRKen wrote: I am? Heck my brothers and I going down the tracks don't know what the heck you are. Are you a manager testing? Are you MoW, (in which case we need to use whistle and bell going by you)? If no one has any information about you, we drop the dime. That get up has all the makings of either a managers testing, or impersonation. Personally we don't care, it's our jobs. If I blow by you, and someone notices I did not do as I was supposed to, I get the brownie points. Try this on. I see a guy, with a blue shirt and blue pants, he has something shiney pinned above his pocket, what is he???????? If that is too deep, try this. Do you go to the police station dressed as a cop, to take photos of their squad cars???????? Do you go to a military installation dressed in fatigues to get shots of the tanks and hummers? You are dressed out of the ordinary, and stick out like a stalk of corn in a bean field.
Well... I guess we agree to disagree.
I must be the only one here who believes that safety starts with me and by that I mean dressing conspicuously and in safety attire. I also suppose by your assertion that the guy I see every night riding his bike with a reflective vest on must be impersonating someone else too.
Also, while wearing a police uniform DOES constitute impersonation of a law enforcement officer, a crime... wearing safety attire DOES NOT constitute impersonation of anyone, no crime there. It's just a clear attempt at being safe... That's all.
You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker).
*Unless you are in an area where you had to hike, or there is nasty brush, ticks, etc.
I'm going to go out qucik for some ralfanning. I'm wearing a polo shirt, jeans, (my regular work apparel) but will leave behind the safety glasses and boots (I wore them all day yesterday.. enough of that crap).
zugmann wrote: You can get to more places with a clipboard than with a set of bolt cutters. I bet you can drive around rr yards all day if you have a white jeep cherokee, too.
Indeed, if you see the white Cherokee, word of it travels fast, and everyone is on the lookout. Chances are in larger terminals, you can do what you want unmolested.
On this property, we must ask to see I.D. of anyone who appears to be an employee on the property. Even cab drivers have them now.
My job is safety. I teach it, I observe it, I live it. I come in contact with everyone working in the terminal almost daily, or at least I try. That also includes those who work in out of town depots that are part of this terminal. If I see a person with a vest I don't know, I am asking questions. I will also inform the Roadmaster, Terminal Trainmaster, signal, B&B, or new construction of the situation. Most times they will say drop the dime, and they respond.
The safety and welfare of my fellow employees come first.
zugmann wrote: It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple.
It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple.
Wrong... They know I'm a railfan. When I'm asked I tell them. Like I stated before, I've been told by railroad employees I've talked to while out railfanning and police officers who've stopped to make chit chat that if OTHER RAILFANS followed my example there would be fewer RAILFAN related problems for them to deal with.
It's clear to me that you prefer to fly below the radar when pursuing your passion. That's fine and I respect that. I, however, want everyone to see me and if there's any problem feel free to come over to talk to me. I'll tell you exactly who I am and what I'm doing. No deception there.
SR1457 wrote:Give it up Keven, there isnt one soul on here that can do anything but offer their opinion, there are always 3 sides to a story, yours, theirs, and the truth! deal with it, all we have heard is your side, and just from your posts it seems that you may be a younger person, with a very hard head, something we all have gone through at one point in our life!
Well, I'm glad that 34 is still considered young.
As far as a hard head, no, I don't think so. I just haven't been able to get out railfanning for a few years, and the first time I go out, this happens. Now, I have been stopped by police before, and in that case, I can understand why it happened.
Back in the summer of 1995, some friends of mine and I were living just off the Heidelberg College campus in Tiffin, Ohio for the summer. During that summer, I was going over to the parking lot on the north side of campus along the CSX tracks on the weekends to catch the Broadway go through before Amtrak discontinued it that fall. One night, I was standing at the edge of the parking lot when a Tiffin cop shows up. He asks me what I was doing there, and I explained to him that I was out railfanning and waiting to watch the Broadway go through. He left. About a half hour later, another officer shows up on the street on the other side of the tracks and stops. That's when I saw the first officer pull up next to me again. Apparently the reason they were taking so much interest in me was because a resident by the tracks had seen me and called me in as somebody who appeared to be getting ready to commit suicide. I explained to them about my love of trains and about my layout that I had at my parents' house. They took down my information for their report that they had to file and left it at that.
Now, in that case, I can see sending somebody out to seriously check out somebody near the tracks. However, in the incident that happened yesterday, all anybody had to do was ask what I was up to rather than just falsely claim that what I was doing was illegal. That is where I'm having the issue with what happened.
zugmann wrote: You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker).
So, I guess by your assertion that people shouldn't wear safety attire at all unless it's absolutely necessary. Sorry, but I think that's absurd.
I bet the railfan didn't wave at the lady at the white building.
Thats what probably caused this conundrum.
Murray wrote: I bet the railfan didn't wave at the lady at the white building.Thats what probably caused this conundrum.
I disagree... He probably DID wave... We all know how condemned that action is around here.
Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote: You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker). So, I guess by your assertion that people shouldn't wear safety attire at all unless it's absolutely necessary. Sorry, but I think that's absurd.
Ted, your response to Zugmann it itself makes no sense whatsoever.
Murray wrote: Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote: You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker). So, I guess by your assertion that people shouldn't wear safety attire at all unless it's absolutely necessary. Sorry, but I think that's absurd.Ted, your response to Zugmann it itself makes no sense whatsoever.
To you perhaps... which is completely understandable.
Ok so lets just let all the rainfans run amuck...and safety and security be darned.
How 'bout that?
Just for the chance to take a picture of a train?
There are laws against impersonating law enforcement personnel, even if just by dress. Necessary on all counts because we have been instructed almost since birth to respect and obey law enforcement personnel to preserve an orderly society.
But I cannot believe some of the comments above, many directed by people claiming to be railroaders, at Ted. I word this carefully because I cannot be sure everyone on an open forum like this using assumed names really are what they claim to be just to somehow make their opinion more "valid".
That said, what's the matter with you people? Since when did it become illegal to dress similar to a contractor or railroad worker off railroad property? It will be a sad day indeed when someone -- anyone -- starts telling me how I may or not dress. I'll be gol-darned if someone is going to tell me to wear "RAILFAN" across my back -- just for their convenience. I will if those who qualify wear "JERK" on their backs.
Last time I checked, this was still a free country, and right now there are over a quarter million heroes in the Middle East doing everything they can so a poor schlub like me can -- among other things -- dress however he chooses without worrying about offending someone. Or stand on public property and make pictures of trains.
So I'll take the opposite stance. Maybe it's time for all railroad employees to dress alike, clean, sharp uniforms that identify them as such with "RAILROAD EMPLOYEE" in 8-inch letters across the back. Then maybe the railroads in their zeal to stifle wannabees, railfans and terrorists, can lobby Congress to change the constitution and make it illegal to impersonate a uniformed railroad worker.
Silly? Sure. But sorry, gang, there's a world of difference between wearing a safety vest and a law enforcement badge. Badges are not legally available to anyone outside the law enforcement community and there are laws against it. Safety vests do not fall into that category, neither do hardhats, jeans and steel-toed shoes.
And regarding the Yelling Woman in the original post. It is out of line to tell the author he shouldn't do so because it could get the woman fired by writing the letter. He did exactly what his freedoms allow him to do. If she was acting as instructed, yelling from a distance, dispensing misinformation, ordering him off public property and failing to identify herself, she should be promoted right away. If not, she should be suspended or fired.
That's how it works in the real world, and I'm not sure that's how the railroad wants its employees to interface with the public under any circumstances.
Poppa_Zit wrote: That's how it works in the real world...
This isn't the real world...this is trains.com
Murray wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: That's how it works in the real world...This isn't the real world...this is trains.com
Yeah. Where I can come to have anonymous people tell me how they'd like me to behave. Just what I need.
chatanuga wrote: I remembered this photo on my website and thought I'd post it to show where everything happened. This is originally from 1996.The woman was on the porch of the white building behind the locomotive in the picture. I was at the stop line for the crossing on the right.Kevin
Porch, what porch? I don't see a porch or anything else that would hold something the size of a chair for her to sit on.
eolafan wrote: Porch, what porch? I don't see a porch or anything else that would hold something the size of a chair for her to sit on.
But she don't need no stinkin' badge.
According to the lecture given me - the railroad has say so 100 feet from the tracks. So even without a camera, the original poster was in violation of the 100 foot rule. This supposedly applies to private property, too. It did in my case! And was confirmed by an official of the railroad.
Mookie wrote: According to the lecture given me - the railroad has say so 100 feet from the tracks. So even without a camera, the original poster was in violation of the 100 foot rule. This supposedly applies to private property, too. It did in my case! And was confirmed by an official of the railroad.
But it makes no sense. I know of several fast food parking lots that come closer than 100 feet from the tracks. If someone is in the drive-thru waiting for their food, can the railroad come chase them away and call them a terrorist for wanting a cheeseburger? What about if I want to go in and eat and park my car in the lot? Will I have my car towed from the parking lot? This is really getting ridiculous.
Willy
Never heard of a 100-foot rule.
Maybe I missed something. Lecture from WHO?
eolafan wrote: chatanuga wrote: I remembered this photo on my website and thought I'd post it to show where everything happened. This is originally from 1996.The woman was on the porch of the white building behind the locomotive in the picture. I was at the stop line for the crossing on the right.KevinPorch, what porch? I don't see a porch or anything else that would hold something the size of a chair for her to sit on.
The porch is behind the locomotive.
The RR's authority, like any property owner, ends at the edge of their right of way or at their property line.
Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote: It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple. Wrong... They know I'm a railfan. When I'm asked I tell them. Like I stated before, I've been told by railroad employees I've talked to while out railfanning and police officers who've stopped to make chit chat that if OTHER RAILFANS followed my example there would be fewer RAILFAN related problems for them to deal with. It's clear to me that you prefer to fly below the radar when pursuing your passion. That's fine and I respect that. I, however, want everyone to see me and if there's any problem feel free to come over to talk to me. I'll tell you exactly who I am and what I'm doing. No deception there.
Wrong. We see a guy with a shiny hard hat, bright and clean vest, and CLEAN clothes and we see a management puke. Don't forget to wear your ear plugs and gloves while you're out there pretending to be one of us.
Poppa_Zit wrote: Mookie wrote: According to the lecture given me - the railroad has say so 100 feet from the tracks. So even without a camera, the original poster was in violation of the 100 foot rule. This supposedly applies to private property, too. It did in my case! And was confirmed by an official of the railroad.Never heard of a 100-foot rule.Maybe I missed something. Lecture from WHO?
PigFarmer1 wrote: Wrong. We see a guy with a shiny hard hat, bright and clean vest, and CLEAN clothes and we see a management puke. Don't forget to wear your ear plugs and gloves while you're out there pretending to be one of us.
Excuse me sir, but where did I mention anything about wearing a hard hat? Huh? That's what I thought... I didn't. As for the ear plugs... If it's excessively noisy where I am, I just may... I have before. I haven't had any need for gloves yet, though.
I find it very amusing that certain people who hide behind anonymous screen names ironcally spout senseless b.s. about impersonating, posing and pretending at those of us who obviously have absolutely nothing to hide about who we are and what we're doing.
The LAST thing I would ever do is pretend to be one of you, whatever you are. Do all railroaders think we want to emulate them?? Sheesh!
Ted Marshall wrote:I believe the 100' Rule that Mookie refered to is that the railroad's right-of-way is generally 100' wide, 50' either side of centerline in single track territory. This is a guide to use when a boundary line is not physically established or cannot be clearly discerned otherwise.
Must have been those guys who came out of the black Suburbans in black suite and sunglasses.
If railfans don't comply, they swoop them up and take them to North Dakota...where the are forced to listen to nonstop Lawrence Welk music.
Ted Marshall wrote:I find it very amusing that certain people who hide behind anonymous screen names ironcally spout senseless b.s. about impersonating, posing and pretending at those of us who obviously have absolutely nothing to hide about who we are and what we're doing.
Ummmm...Psssst...Hey Ted! Isn't that what your doing?
BTW: There must be a gazilion Ted Marshall's in the US. How do we know its you?
Ted: you completely blew up my point. Our safety gear is required WHEN WE ARE ON THE PROPERTY! I just came back from a quick railfanning trip. Guess what? I didn't wear my safety glasses or boots. Know why not? Because I was not on the property. When I'm in the yard office - I do not wear my safety glasses because we are not required to. See what I'm getting at? You want to wear that crap? Knock yourself out. But to think all railfans (incl. myself) should wear all that is just rediculous. And again, that safety gear is for persons on the property. You should not be on the property, hence it is not unsafe for you to not wear it.
By rule, when we see MOW peoples near the track, we are required to ring bell and blow short blasts on the horn. So if your dressing up as MOW (even if not your intent to) then we need to blow our horn at you, since we can't check IDs at 50mph. People who live nearby will be REAL appreciative if you're not near a x-ing.
Murray wrote: Ummmm...Psssst...Hey Ted! Isn't that what your doing?BTW: There must be a gazilion Ted Marshall's in the US. How do we know its you?
Even though I'm under no obligation to divulge... maybe this will help:]
http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealTedMarshall
http://profiles.yahoo.com/teddymarshall2003
What else would you like to know?
And this post below is an example of why railfans are not taken seriously. Get over yourself. We were simply addressing whether railfans should feel the need to wear OSHA-stuff strictly to railfan. Sheesh.
Poppa_Zit wrote:There are laws against impersonating law enforcement personnel, even if just by dress. Necessary on all counts because we have been instructed almost since birth to respect and obey law enforcement personnel to preserve an orderly society.But I cannot believe some of the comments above, many directed by people claiming to be railroaders, at Ted. I word this carefully because I cannot be sure everyone on an open forum like this using assumed names really are what they claim to be just to somehow make their opinion more "valid".That said, what's the matter with you people? Since when did it become illegal to dress similar to a contractor or railroad worker off railroad property? It will be a sad day indeed when someone -- anyone -- starts telling me how I may or not dress. I'll be gol-darned if someone is going to tell me to wear "RAILFAN" across my back -- just for their convenience. I will if those who qualify wear "JERK" on their backs.Last time I checked, this was still a free country, and right now there are over a quarter million heroes in the Middle East doing everything they can so a poor schlub like me can -- among other things -- dress however he chooses without worrying about offending someone. Or stand on public property and make pictures of trains.So I'll take the opposite stance. Maybe it's time for all railroad employees to dress alike, clean, sharp uniforms that identify them as such with "RAILROAD EMPLOYEE" in 8-inch letters across the back. Then maybe the railroads in their zeal to stifle wannabees, railfans and terrorists, can lobby Congress to change the constitution and make it illegal to impersonate a uniformed railroad worker.Silly? Sure. But sorry, gang, there's a world of difference between wearing a safety vest and a law enforcement badge. Badges are not legally available to anyone outside the law enforcement community and there are laws against it. Safety vests do not fall into that category, neither do hardhats, jeans and steel-toed shoes.And regarding the Yelling Woman in the original post. It is out of line to tell the author he shouldn't do so because it could get the woman fired by writing the letter. He did exactly what his freedoms allow him to do. If she was acting as instructed, yelling from a distance, dispensing misinformation, ordering him off public property and failing to identify herself, she should be promoted right away. If not, she should be suspended or fired. That's how it works in the real world, and I'm not sure that's how the railroad wants its employees to interface with the public under any circumstances.
Mookie wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: Mookie wrote: According to the lecture given me - the railroad has say so 100 feet from the tracks. So even without a camera, the original poster was in violation of the 100 foot rule. This supposedly applies to private property, too. It did in my case! And was confirmed by an official of the railroad.Never heard of a 100-foot rule.Maybe I missed something. Lecture from WHO?check your pm.
Why all the secrecy?
Can you not share this with the rest of us? Perhaps it could aid in this debate.
Murray wrote: Mookie wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: Mookie wrote: According to the lecture given me - the railroad has say so 100 feet from the tracks. So even without a camera, the original poster was in violation of the 100 foot rule. This supposedly applies to private property, too. It did in my case! And was confirmed by an official of the railroad.Never heard of a 100-foot rule.Maybe I missed something. Lecture from WHO?check your pm.Why all the secrecy?Can you not share this with the rest of us? Perhaps it could aid in this debate.
zugmann wrote: Ted: you completely blew up my point. Our safety gear is required WHEN WE ARE ON THE PROPERTY! I just came back from a quick railfanning trip. Guess what? I didn't wear my safety glasses or boots. Know why not? Because I was not on the property. When I'm in the yard office - I do not wear my safety glasses because we are not required to. See what I'm getting at? You want to wear that crap? Knock yourself out. But to think all railfans (incl. myself) should wear all that is just rediculous. And again, that safety gear is for persons on the property. You should not be on the property, hence it is not unsafe for you to not wear it. By rule, when we see MOW peoples near the track, we are required to ring bell and blow short blasts on the horn. So if your dressing up as MOW (even if not your intent to) then we need to blow our horn at you, since we can't check IDs at 50mph. People who live nearby will be REAL appreciative if you're not near a x-ing.
Ok... Now I see what you mean. But still, I want to be visible to you from a great distance away so you know that I'm there. I don't want to take you by surprise at the last second and leave you wondering if I'm about to throw myself in front of your train; too little time to think it out.
I'm always legal and usually near a public crossing where automotive and pedestrian traffic are a legitimate safety concern to me. I also prefer when street bums and the like leave me alone. They always do for some reason.
Sorry if my attire confuses you, but maybe you're analyzing it a little too much.
Ted Marshall wrote: Murray wrote: Ummmm...Psssst...Hey Ted! Isn't that what your doing?BTW: There must be a gazilion Ted Marshall's in the US. How do we know its you?Even though I'm under no obligation to divulge... maybe this will help:]http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/http://www.youtube.com/user/TheRealTedMarshallhttp://profiles.yahoo.com/teddymarshall2003What else would you like to know?
Why yes Ted I do:
I was told by the trains .com moderators that I could not advertise a website in my signature box. The site that I had in my signiture box was removed by them. Yet I notice that you are using your signature box to advertise yours.
Its a violation of forum policy he stated. I checked in the forum rules, and by golly he was right.
So my question to you is: Why does yours get to stay in?
Mookie wrote: Murray wrote: Mookie wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: Mookie wrote: According to the lecture given me - the railroad has say so 100 feet from the tracks. So even without a camera, the original poster was in violation of the 100 foot rule. This supposedly applies to private property, too. It did in my case! And was confirmed by an official of the railroad.Never heard of a 100-foot rule.Maybe I missed something. Lecture from WHO?check your pm.Why all the secrecy?Can you not share this with the rest of us? Perhaps it could aid in this debate. I shared it in a previous posting on this subject. Not going to rehash it again.
Oh thats OK to rehash...Its Sunday night and most of us aren't going anywhere...we have lots of time.
zugmann wrote: By rule, when we see MOW peoples near the track, we are required to ring bell and blow short blasts on the horn. So if your dressing up as MOW (even if not your intent to) then we need to blow our horn at you, since we can't check IDs at 50mph. People who live nearby will be REAL appreciative if you're not near a x-ing.
Excuse me, but... If you're approaching a grade crossing aren't you sounding your bell and horn anyway?
Murray wrote: Why yes Tes I do:I was told by the trains .com moderators that I could not advertise a website in my signature box. The site that I had in my signiture box was removed by them. Yet I notice that you are using your signature box to advertise yours.Its a violation of forum policy he stated. I checked in the forum rules, and by golly he was right.So my question to you is: Why does yours get to stay in?
Why yes Tes I do:
It's most likely because it's not intended for commercial purpose. That's why I didn't include my ebay URL.
I never had trouble distinguishing railfans. They are usually at the normal spots with a camera in hand, far enough of the tracks not to be a concern. Then you have the respassers of varying degrees real close to the trakcs. And if they want to commit suicide, there is not much we can do. Now guys with vests.. to me that spells MOW. When we see one, we are on the lookout for more that may be working real close to the tracks.
No real big deal...
You didn't say right away you were at a crossing. Yeah, if you're near one, then there will be horns and bells.
Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote: By rule, when we see MOW peoples near the track, we are required to ring bell and blow short blasts on the horn. So if your dressing up as MOW (even if not your intent to) then we need to blow our horn at you, since we can't check IDs at 50mph. People who live nearby will be REAL appreciative if you're not near a x-ing.Excuse me, but... If you're approaching a grade crossing aren't you sounding your bell and horn anyway?
Ted Marshall wrote: Murray wrote: Why yes Tes I do:I was told by the trains .com moderators that I could not advertise a website in my signature box. The site that I had in my signiture box was removed by them. Yet I notice that you are using your signature box to advertise yours.Its a violation of forum policy he stated. I checked in the forum rules, and by golly he was right.So my question to you is: Why does yours get to stay in?It's most likely because it's not intended for commercial purpose. That's why I didn't include my ebay URL.
Neither was mine...yet is was removed.
I mention this to you just as a heads up.
zugmann wrote: You didn't say right away you were at a crossing. Yeah, if you're near one, then there will be horns and bells. Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote: By rule, when we see MOW peoples near the track, we are required to ring bell and blow short blasts on the horn. So if your dressing up as MOW (even if not your intent to) then we need to blow our horn at you, since we can't check IDs at 50mph. People who live nearby will be REAL appreciative if you're not near a x-ing.Excuse me, but... If you're approaching a grade crossing aren't you sounding your bell and horn anyway?
So then why wouldn't the local residents want me near a x-ing? I'm having a 'lil trouble trying to understand your point.
all this letter and topic is for is to gain some simpahty from the rail fan community becouse a railbuff got his feelings hurt for being singaled out one day for taking pics... nothing but a way to vent and maybe get some pats on the back to heal some brused feelings...
Ted Marshall wrote: Murray wrote: I bet the railfan didn't wave at the lady at the white building.Thats what probably caused this conundrum.I disagree... He probably DID wave... We all know how condemned that action is around here.
I never wave!
I've read most of this thread, but I don't claim to understand all the charges and countercharges. I do know that the issue is one railfan being chased away from a site for no good reason.
The only thing I want to add is that I was raised in a working class section of the city, and I learned early that when you're in the other guy's neighborhood, wrong or right, you'd better leave because you don't know how many of his friends are hanging around out of sight. And if there are serious consequences, you're on your own.
Such is life.
zugmann wrote: And this post ... is an example of why railfans are not taken seriously. Get over yourself. We were simply addressing whether railfans should feel the need to wear OSHA-stuff strictly to railfan. Sheesh.
And this post ... is an example of why railfans are not taken seriously. Get over yourself. We were simply addressing whether railfans should feel the need to wear OSHA-stuff strictly to railfan. Sheesh.
1. What difference would it make if I am or am not taken seriously when I go out to observe trains?
2. The discussion had degenerated to one saying railfans should not impersonate MOW workers, ala:
PigFarmer1 wrote:Wrong. We see a guy with a shiny hard hat, bright and clean vest, and CLEAN clothes and we see a management puke. Don't forget to wear your ear plugs and gloves while you're out there pretending to be one of us.
Weed weasel!
RRKen wrote: PigFarmer1 wrote:Wrong. We see a guy with a shiny hard hat, bright and clean vest, and CLEAN clothes and we see a management puke. Don't forget to wear your ear plugs and gloves while you're out there pretending to be one of us. Weed weasel!
Waving Weed Weasels....
Ishmael wrote:I've read most of this thread, but I don't claim to understand all the charges and countercharges. I do know that the issue is one railfan being chased away from a site for no good reason.The only thing I want to add is that I was raised in a working class section of the city, and I learned early that when you're on the other guy's turf, wrong or right, you'd better leave because you don't know how many of his friends are hanging around out of sight. And if there are serious consequences, you're on your own.Such is life.
The only thing I want to add is that I was raised in a working class section of the city, and I learned early that when you're on the other guy's turf, wrong or right, you'd better leave because you don't know how many of his friends are hanging around out of sight. And if there are serious consequences, you're on your own.
from his own posting to the open letter to NS
"I couldn't hear what she was saying due to traffic going by on the street. I asked her what she said, and she said, "Are you listening to our radio frequencies?" I told her that I was. She then said that it was "illegal." I know what she said was not true, but not wanting to get into an argument, I turned off my scanner. I was about to take a couple more pictures when she shouted to me, "You can't take pictures of our trains." I asked her, "Why not?" She then said, "Because I can call you in for being a terrorist." I was completely blown away by that. Again, I didn't want more trouble to be made. I simply told her "OK," got in my Jeep, and left. "
see the last line.. i got in my jeep and left..
no one told him to leave..or he couldnt watch the train traffic.. basicly this perosn is throughing what could be termed as a tempor tantrum for being signaled out that day by an employee that told him not to take pics..
this is a case study in railroad/railfan relations.. insted of being respectfull when you come into "our house" (on public proporty or not you are watching the actions of our place of work..and the actions of us doing our jobs) and should be respectfull of US the EMPLOLYEES!!! that means if we ask you not to take pics then dont do it.. just move on to another location or something.. im sure that if we where to come to your place of work and take pics of you or your company doing what it dose and you didnt want your pic or the actions of the company photograghed you would say something to the person takeing the pics too... but this isnt about taking pics or the right to take pics from public proporty of trains..this is all becouse someone got there feelings hurt by a brash employee...bottom line!!!!
Poppa_Zit wrote: 1. What difference would it make if I am or am not taken seriously when I go out to observe trains?
Makes no difference. And I'm talking about on here, not railfanning. If you ask questions, I'll be glad to provide my insights unless you treat me like crap on here. Fool me once...
csxengineer98 wrote: this is a case study in railroad/railfan relations.. insted of being respectfull when you come into "our house" (on public proporty or not you are watching the actions of our place of work..and the actions of us doing our jobs) and should be respectfull of US the EMPLOLYEES!!! that means if we ask you not to take pics then dont do it.. just move on to another location or something.. im sure that if we where to come to your place of work and take pics of you or your company doing what it dose and you didnt want your pic or the actions of the company photograghed you would say something to the person takeing the pics too... but this isnt about taking pics or the right to take pics from public proporty of trains..this is all becouse someone got there feelings hurt by a brash employee...bottom line!!!!csx engineer
If you can stand on public property and take photos of me at work, have at it.
Actually, I've worked several times in places where people on a busy sidewalk could look through a large window and observe us working. Never had a second thought or a paranoia like some people seem to do.
sovablunt wrote: When exactly is it ok for a person who likes trains to watch them pass or take a picture of one?
Actually, any time you want just so that you respect property, and are careful.
I think the original poster was upset at the young lady not being professional or acting like a normal person for that matter. If I did that I'm quite sure HR would inform me I didnt have a job anymore. Just because she works for a railroad doesnt make it right, thats just arrogant.
There is a huge difference between your industry, and railroading. Like it or not, there are many on the property who are not nice, others brusque. For me, I ask once, if they give me any lip at all, I put on my tough face. This is not their property, it belongs to my employer. Just listen to what the man says, and be on your way. You sas back, and you are asking for problems.
Poppa_Zit wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: this is a case study in railroad/railfan relations.. insted of being respectfull when you come into "our house" (on public proporty or not you are watching the actions of our place of work..and the actions of us doing our jobs) and should be respectfull of US the EMPLOLYEES!!! that means if we ask you not to take pics then dont do it.. just move on to another location or something.. im sure that if we where to come to your place of work and take pics of you or your company doing what it dose and you didnt want your pic or the actions of the company photograghed you would say something to the person takeing the pics too... but this isnt about taking pics or the right to take pics from public proporty of trains..this is all becouse someone got there feelings hurt by a brash employee...bottom line!!!!csx engineer If you can stand on public property and take photos of me at work, have at it.
The sign to the entrace of my work facility says:
"Authorized Personnel Only Use of Deadly Force Authorized"
Definately not inviting for photos.
And of course here comes a railfan right on cue with his RR-bashing (this time NS).
RRKen wrote: sovablunt wrote: When exactly is it ok for a person who likes trains to watch them pass or take a picture of one?Actually, any time you want just so that you respect property, and are careful. I think the original poster was upset at the young lady not being professional or acting like a normal person for that matter. If I did that I'm quite sure HR would inform me I didnt have a job anymore. Just because she works for a railroad doesnt make it right, thats just arrogant.There is a huge difference between your industry, and railroading. Like it or not, there are many on the property who are not nice, others brusque. For me, I ask once, if they give me any lip at all, I put on my tough face. This is not their property, it belongs to my employer. Just listen to what the man says, and be on your way. You sas back, and you are asking for problems.
....This issue seems to bring out the bad side of people. I suppose all of what the employee called out to the fan was not pleasant for him and surprising. After a while when he had a chance to reflect on just what happened, it really didn't set well with him.
He no doubt thought he was off railroad ROW and on property not owned by the railroad. And from the info we know that seems to be the case. I suppose he really wondered where this radical person {employee}, was coming from....Since he was not on railroad property. I wouldn't care to be dictated to as he was either.
Modelcar wrote: ....This issue seems to bring out the bad side of people. I suppose all of what the employee called out to the fan was not pleasant for him and surprising. After a while when he had a chance to reflect on just what happened, it really didn't set well with him.He no doubt thought he was off railroad ROW and on property not owned by the railroad. And from the info we know that seems to be the case. I suppose he really wondered where this radical person {employee}, was coming from....Since he was not on railroad property. I wouldn't care to be dictated to as he was either.
There is nothing bad about me.
....That's a good thing.
sovablunt wrote:I wasnt directly comparing the two industries. I was trying to point out that no matter what your industry, you should be a good ambassador for your company, whether it be railroading or selling flowers. Ive dealt with all kinds of ppl as a serviceman, a store clerk auto mechanic you name it, but I would never think it was my right to get hostile with somebody when they werent even on our property. You can be intimidating without cussing or even yelling. It also helps when I approach someone quickly and stand 6'5" and 250lbs.
I did for a reason. I am not very imposing at 5'7". I am a goodwill ambassador, when folks listen. As I said tho, sas back, and it is a new ballgame.
Maybe some of the RR employees on this site get tired of being treated like we don't know crap by a select few railfans???
It is not like we live and breath this industry every day of our life... oh wait, we do!
Modelcar wrote:....This issue seems to bring out the bad side of people. I suppose all of what the employee called out to the fan was not pleasant for him and surprising. After a while when he had a chance to reflect on just what happened, it really didn't set well with him.
csxengineer98 wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: this is a case study in railroad/railfan relations.. insted of being respectfull when you come into "our house" (on public proporty or not you are watching the actions of our place of work..and the actions of us doing our jobs) and should be respectfull of US the EMPLOLYEES!!! that means if we ask you not to take pics then dont do it.. just move on to another location or something.. im sure that if we where to come to your place of work and take pics of you or your company doing what it dose and you didnt want your pic or the actions of the company photograghed you would say something to the person takeing the pics too... but this isnt about taking pics or the right to take pics from public proporty of trains..this is all becouse someone got there feelings hurt by a brash employee...bottom line!!!!csx engineer If you can stand on public property and take photos of me at work, have at it. if i knew what you did and where you worked out of..maybe i would in my time off.. but that isnt the point here.. this isnt about photos or the rights to do it from where.. its about someone being confronted granted in a less that profecinal mannor..and having his feelings hurt becouse the person used the word terrorist... re-read the letter dude.. it is all about that word and how his feelings where hurt and feeling insulted becouse the employee used it.. that is what this is all about.. some of you want to make this an issue of it was public proporty crap..that isnt what this is about at all..reread the first posting and the letter.. you will see the tone of his posting turn when that word was used.. not becouse he was asked not to take pics.. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE..DEAL WITH IT!!!!
Well, DUDE, I did go back and read the 1st post, I also re-read the 2nd reply, and if I were to get excited over anyone, it would be that person. Do you recognise that person?? His mention of THE word was a secondary point, his main issue was that of the person and yelling inaccurate information and doing so in a unprofessional manner.
I happen to agree with the original post, and also with all of what was said by Poppa_zit. AND, it really does come down to the issue of being on public property and being on private property. When on public property, one is allowed to take photo's of (in this instance) trains. It is not illegal!! Like another poster said, "when they are used commercially" that is a different issue. I also believe that he did the proper thing in not confronting, however, if I were him, I would have completely ignored the person on the "porch BEHIND the engine" and went about my business. I would rather deal with the local law enforcement than with a wannabe security person who has absolutely no authority beyond property lines. So, DUDE. chill and deal with it goes both ways. You were the 1st one to go hyper over this post.
thanks,
Jared
I think its time everyone goes to the fridge, grab an ice cold beer and enjoy it. I love all the info I get from this site. I learn something new and generally useful everytime I login. I dont care who is a railfan or a real railroader since we all obviously have a common interest.
....My feelings on the whole situation: Judging from what we all read in the initial post....Employee over reacted and seemingly was arrogant and possibly out of line dictating to fan who was not on RR property.
Modelcar wrote: ....My feelings on the whole situation: Judging from what we all read in the initial post....Employee over reacted and seemingly was arrogant and possibly out of line dictating to fan who was not on RR property.
I respectfully disagree Sir.
We can't say with certainty that this individual was too close to the tracks or not. All we have is his word. To the employees eye, it may have appeared that he was in an unsafe position.
I see nothing wrong with a railroad employee looking out for one's safety.
Goober wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: this is a case study in railroad/railfan relations.. insted of being respectfull when you come into "our house" (on public proporty or not you are watching the actions of our place of work..and the actions of us doing our jobs) and should be respectfull of US the EMPLOLYEES!!! that means if we ask you not to take pics then dont do it.. just move on to another location or something.. im sure that if we where to come to your place of work and take pics of you or your company doing what it dose and you didnt want your pic or the actions of the company photograghed you would say something to the person takeing the pics too... but this isnt about taking pics or the right to take pics from public proporty of trains..this is all becouse someone got there feelings hurt by a brash employee...bottom line!!!!csx engineer If you can stand on public property and take photos of me at work, have at it. if i knew what you did and where you worked out of..maybe i would in my time off.. but that isnt the point here.. this isnt about photos or the rights to do it from where.. its about someone being confronted granted in a less that profecinal mannor..and having his feelings hurt becouse the person used the word terrorist... re-read the letter dude.. it is all about that word and how his feelings where hurt and feeling insulted becouse the employee used it.. that is what this is all about.. some of you want to make this an issue of it was public proporty crap..that isnt what this is about at all..reread the first posting and the letter.. you will see the tone of his posting turn when that word was used.. not becouse he was asked not to take pics.. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE..DEAL WITH IT!!!! Well, DUDE, I did go back and read the 1st post, I also re-read the 2nd reply, and if I were to get excited over anyone, it would be that person. Do you recognise that person?? His mention of THE word was a secondary point, his main issue was that of the person and yelling inaccurate information and doing so in a unprofessional manner. I happen to agree with the original post, and also with all of what was said by Poppa_zit. AND, it really does come down to the issue of being on public property and being on private property. When on public property, one is allowed to take photo's of (in this instance) trains. It is not illegal!! Like another poster said, "when they are used commercially" that is a different issue. I also believe that he did the proper thing in not confronting, however, if I were him, I would have completely ignored the person on the "porch BEHIND the engine" and went about my business. I would rather deal with the local law enforcement than with a wannabe security person who has absolutely no authority beyond property lines. So, DUDE. chill and deal with it goes both ways. You were the 1st one to go hyper over this post.thanks,Jared
and for the reason why i was the first to get "hot" over this thread was that a fellow sister in service could get in some kind of trouble with the company due to the actions of one hurt feelings train buff...i cant stand people that have to make issue out of not being told they couldnt do something..there are alot of things i have been told i couldnt do..some in polite ways and others in ways that make what this woman said sound respectfull.. yet i didnt go off and have to write a letter..i sucked it up and moved on with my life..
Hmmm...Seems the original poster is placing this on all the popular rail sites:
http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,1739347
Coincidence?...YOU make the call
Murray wrote: Hmmm...Seems the original poster is placing this on all the popular rail sites:http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,1739347Coincidence?...YOU make the call
looks kinds suspicious to me.
Trainorders is popular??
Popularity must cost pennies a day then...
.....And of course you have the right to disagree Murray.
zugmann wrote: Trainorders is popular??Popularity must cost pennies a day then...
That is why he had to get rid of the freeloaders.
Your point is?
There is only 1 other popular rail site? If so, then it would be on "all the popular rail sites"
http://www.youtube.com/user/pavabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvbox
zugmann wrote:RRers are the finest in the practice of freeloading...
What ever you do, never get near a line of railroaders when someone says free food!
One question I have to ask, are scanners legal in Ohio? I know they are legal here in Illinois but it is illegal to use portable scanners in Indiana.
zugmann wrote:Did it once.. still have a limp in that leg...
I found out the hard way too. I worked second shift, there was never any left overs.
So don't report the problems. THen when the train derails and kills someone you know that was sitting at the crossing... have fun washing that blood off your hands. Ashamed to say you were a railroader? Well I'm ashamed that you were one.
sandiego wrote:After reading 120 messages on this I have two things to say: 2. After reading the illiterate rants from railroad employees I am ashamed to say that I was a railroader also, with 25 years of total service and 16 years in TYE. I never had a problem with anyone taking photos if they were off the property, I was photographed many times but so what? If you are doing your job properly you have nothing to worry about. As for ops testing I have probably have a dozen letters stating "on (date), checked on (rule), result (passed, good job)" and I had no idea at the time I that was being tested; same thing do your job properly and you have no problems. As for being photographed at work, I now work for a company locating underground utilities, and I'm out on the street with my reflectorized vest including being near RR tracks at crossings so photo away!Finally, to you RR jerks writing here, if I see something wrong on your train do you think that I will report it? After this, NOT LIKELY!!Kurt Hayek(Not afraid to sign my name)
sandiego wrote:After reading 120 messages on this I have two things to say:1. Kevin, I know what you are saying, I am ready to give up trainwatching and photography because of the hassles from ignorant clods like the one you ran into. This Hopeless Insecurity BS just gets worse every year, both from LEO and RR, and what's so stupid is that the bad guys can get the photos and information if they want to without anyone ever knowing. Think cell phone cameras for example, everyone has cell phones and no one notices them. How about videocams, two people in a vehicle driving down the street with one videoing, would anyone notice?2. After reading the illiterate rants from railroad employees I am ashamed to say that I was a railroader also, with 25 years of total service and 16 years in TYE. I never had a problem with anyone taking photos if they were off the property, I was photographed many times but so what? If you are doing your job properly you have nothing to worry about. As for ops testing I have probably have a dozen letters stating "on (date), checked on (rule), result (passed, good job)" and I had no idea at the time I that was being tested; same thing do your job properly and you have no problems. As for being photographed at work, I now work for a company locating underground utilities, and I'm out on the street with my reflectorized vest including being near RR tracks at crossings so photo away!Finally, to you RR jerks writing here, if I see something wrong on your train do you think that I will report it? After this, NOT LIKELY!!Kurt Hayek(Not afraid to sign my name)
Must have had a stellar railroad career that you are no longer in the industry.
sandiego wrote:2. After reading the illiterate rants from railroad employees I am ashamed to say that I was a railroader also, with 25 years of total service and 16 years in TYE. I never had a problem with anyone taking photos if they were off the property, I was photographed many times but so what? If you are doing your job properly you have nothing to worry about. As for ops testing I have probably have a dozen letters stating "on (date), checked on (rule), result (passed, good job)" and I had no idea at the time I that was being tested; same thing do your job properly and you have no problems. Finally, to you RR jerks writing here, if I see something wrong on your train do you think that I will report it? After this, NOT LIKELY!!Kurt Hayek(Not afraid to sign my name)
Aren't you special. You forgot Arrogant.
(Carmen) Sandiego's post casts major aspersions on the claim that he was a rail.
Nice try. Real convincing.
Gentlemen,
Can we please stop the sparring and the personal whacks at one another? This thread is getting dangerously close to the "property lines"...
When I go railfanning, nature hikes, or just out and about taking pictures, this is what I do. I mind my own business. If somebody questions me, I ask them show me some credentials saying that you can question me on what I am doing. 90% don't but the 10% that do, I listen and respect what they say, and do what they tell me to do. As for the confrontational ones (I get that a lot cause of my size, 6'6" 265 lbs), bring it on. If they don't show me credentials, then I clam up. I don't tell them anything. Some will call the cops. So be it. I'll wait for them. I'll wait for them to ask me questions. I tell them exactly what I am doing there and I ask them if they want me to leave. I don't give out more information than need be. I don't show them pictures. They are my pictures for my pleasure. I am never on RR property, illegally. Only with permission that I am on RR property. Getting harder and harder to do so. I've been jailed twice and tazed once because I wouldn't tell the cops more than I wanted them to know as in: where am I going next, where do I plan to stay, where did I come from (I usually say my Mom), just a bunch of useless questions, to me. I've had an officer repremended because of his actions. I don't lose sleep over that. If you confront me, make sure that it is in your best interest to do so. Remember, I am on public property. Don't give me crap saying "it's their railroad, it's their property". BS. If they don't want you to photograph it, put up a fence. Whats the difference if I am right there, or far away with a telephoto lens or even on google earth? The one thing I don't photograph are the employees. They mean nothing to me.
On nature walks, people that have trails in their backyards have fences so people can not see their house, backyard, activites that are going on...ect. They were smart enough to do so.
Time to step off my and get change for my
Paul
PS. If your in a public place, you have no privacy
csxengineer98 wrote: Goober wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: this is a case study in railroad/railfan relations.. insted of being respectfull when you come into "our house" (on public proporty or not you are watching the actions of our place of work..and the actions of us doing our jobs) and should be respectfull of US the EMPLOLYEES!!! that means if we ask you not to take pics then dont do it.. just move on to another location or something.. im sure that if we where to come to your place of work and take pics of you or your company doing what it dose and you didnt want your pic or the actions of the company photograghed you would say something to the person takeing the pics too... but this isnt about taking pics or the right to take pics from public proporty of trains..this is all becouse someone got there feelings hurt by a brash employee...bottom line!!!!csx engineer If you can stand on public property and take photos of me at work, have at it. if i knew what you did and where you worked out of..maybe i would in my time off.. but that isnt the point here.. this isnt about photos or the rights to do it from where.. its about someone being confronted granted in a less that profecinal mannor..and having his feelings hurt becouse the person used the word terrorist... re-read the letter dude.. it is all about that word and how his feelings where hurt and feeling insulted becouse the employee used it.. that is what this is all about.. some of you want to make this an issue of it was public proporty crap..that isnt what this is about at all..reread the first posting and the letter.. you will see the tone of his posting turn when that word was used.. not becouse he was asked not to take pics.. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE..DEAL WITH IT!!!! Well, DUDE, I did go back and read the 1st post, I also re-read the 2nd reply, and if I were to get excited over anyone, it would be that person. Do you recognise that person?? His mention of THE word was a secondary point, his main issue was that of the person and yelling inaccurate information and doing so in a unprofessional manner. I happen to agree with the original post, and also with all of what was said by Poppa_zit. AND, it really does come down to the issue of being on public property and being on private property. When on public property, one is allowed to take photo's of (in this instance) trains. It is not illegal!! Like another poster said, "when they are used commercially" that is a different issue. I also believe that he did the proper thing in not confronting, however, if I were him, I would have completely ignored the person on the "porch BEHIND the engine" and went about my business. I would rather deal with the local law enforcement than with a wannabe security person who has absolutely no authority beyond property lines. So, DUDE. chill and deal with it goes both ways. You were the 1st one to go hyper over this post.thanks,Jared here is my responce to this....... this is OUR house..public proporty or not.. if asked not to take pics regardless of the demeaner of the person saying it.then dont do it.. be respectfull to the job and the employees.. i stand by my statment that is has nothing to do with the pics as it is the exchange between the employee and the person... posting such as yours and this one that started this whole tread are a prime example of why some of use railroaders dont like rail buffs.. its the oh i wasnt doing anything wrong..but yet you where taking pics of me while i was working and maybe i was haveing a bad day and in a very POed mood and just didnt want my pic taken.. maybe i missed out on going to a wedding that day becouse i got called into work and there you are on a nice saterday afternoon track side taking pics injoying yourself when i have to work and "proform" for you like a circuse animal for your amusement and injoyment.. you might only think of it as equimpment or a building..but there is more to it then that.. the human side of things and being human myself there are days where i dont want to deal with people im working with let alone someone trying to take my pic while im working...so DUDE.. be respectfull if anyone asks you not to take any more pics regardless of where it is or what it of.. public proporty isnt a free licence to invade my place of work if i am not feeling photogenic that day!!!!csx engineer
As in the my last response, you need to get something correct, you may ask me to not take your photo, and being a decent human being I should respect your request. Tell me that it is illegal to take your photo and we will continue to argue the point. Yes it is your house, don't make exceptions, because (and you are not going to like this) public property is NOT your house. Sorry!! Public property is not your place of work, then you would be a public employee and subject to different codes of conduct (probably be required to wear a vest).
As far as your "sister" is concerned, she made a decision to do the wrong thing, don't make it worse by condoning it just for the sister/brotherhood. She made a mistake, if that causes her a penalty, welcome to the real world.
Kudos to Paul a fellow railfan from Appleton in a following post.
.....A hundred forty-three replies to this thread....Who would have thunk it.....
Modelcar wrote:.....A hundred forty-three replies to this thread....Who would have thunk it.....
Yea, the popcorn machine is getting a workout
JT22CW wrote:Brilliant reply. Now we all know that you're a troublemaker. Cops don't tase people who aren't being aggressive with them ("where do you come from?" "My mom"…that's wising off and being disrespectful; well done). Police aren't intimidated by size. Be thankful you're on the outside and not locked up for another episode of acting up like you admitted herein.
I was tazed for obstructing. Here are his exact words from the court report "Answer me now or i will taze you" Officer ******* said. That was over a question of "where are you staying" If the police would have treated me with respect right away and continued it, i would have treated them the same way. I push the envolope into the gray but I leave it up to the courts to find it the right direction. I know the police aren't intimidated by size. Read again. I was writing about people that confront me. Not the Police. Now, when the Police get disrespectful, that's when I push the envelope. I am an adult. Nobody tells me how I should or shouldn't act. Nobody needs to know what I am doing, going to do, or have done. You can ask, and I can refuse to answer you. Depends on how you ask.
I want to know is how I am the trouble maker? Photographing trains, nature, lightning, is that me being the trouble maker? Is it being respectful to the people that show me respect when they question me? Is it when I am appraoched in an aggressive manor and demanded their questions answered? I still don't see where I am the trouble maker.
Within the first few sentences, most Police officers already decided how they are going to go about, just a few questions or resorting to waterboarding. All I have to answer to is: what I am doing there, why and give them my name, phone number, license, registration and proof of insurance (in some states). It's my right to clam up if I so choose to. I'll deal with it later.
I've been on the short quick questions of "What are you doing here?" "Watching trains" "OK, just stay off the tracks". and they move on. The worst one i've been in (in 1996 pre-9/11 fear) was that I've had my car stripped and searched. The seats were actually taken out. The cop kept on telling me that I better conscent to a vehicle search or he's going to make it a really long night for me. I had nothing to lose, I had nowhere to be. I was along the tracks, about 50 feet back from the gates, watching trains. Labor Day weekend and he had to get a judge off the golf course so he could sign the search warrant. 7 hours later and 9 squads responded, the search came up nothing. I was asked if I didn't have anything to hide, why i just didnt conscent to the search. It was my car, my property and I didnt feel like he needed to violate my personal property since he didnt have any probably cause whats-so-ever.
Yeah, I know i have an attitude problem. You give me lip, i give you lip. You ask a stupid question, i give you a stupid answer (which i am very good at). eye for eye. If you think you can change me, go for it, if not, keep your personal opinions about me to yourself. You dont know me, just "my kind". I've given the shirt off my back so many times but its the negative the people remember you by.
"Trouble Maker" Paul
eolafan wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: i just hope that a fellow railroad employee dosnt get in some kind of trouble for what i feel is an over reaction to being asked not to take pics.. granted she might have gone about it alittle bit more tactfull but no everyone will... if she dose end up on some kind of suspention as a ressult of this "letter" it is one more reason for railroaders to have a contempt for rail fans if you ask me..csx engineer It would have been much better for this employee to have said something like "We've been told by our employer to report anyone taking pictures here or with a scanner to the railroad or local police" rather than to improperly quote the laws (this fellow was NOT doing anything illegal from what I just read.
I was stopped exactly that way by a UP rail some years back. He was a very nice guy. We spoke for awhile, he understood who I was, and then he said, "Have fun... just don't trespass..." and I did just that.
chad thomas wrote: Modelcar wrote: .....A hundred forty-three replies to this thread....Who would have thunk it.....Yea, the popcorn machine is getting a workout
Modelcar wrote: .....A hundred forty-three replies to this thread....Who would have thunk it.....
I have to believe this could be a record of some sort. When I saw the size of the thread I figured it had been resurrected from the depths and was surprised to find that it started today.
As for the topic at hand - I support the OP's basic premise that the "employee" (something that hasn't been proved conclusively) in question was out of line. I'm certain that had she said something along the lines of "we strongly discourage photos of this area, please move along" this thread would never have been started.
Instead she apparently copped an attitude. I might just have been tempted to hang around until someone with some credentials showed up. Who knows - if she got belligerent enough to cross the tracks and confront me in person, I might have been dialing 9-1-1...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Just by her sitting in the chair on railroad property, one could assume that she was a RR employee.
Since everyone is giving their two cents on this topic, how about: "Is now a good time to pull the plug on this thread?" Yes, no? (Mind your own business?)
Holy moly, I've now read the whole thread...
I think we need a turn the beer sales off after the first three pages of posts rule.
OK, so we found something foamers hate more then railroader's that don't wave. I can't speak to the incident I wasn't there, i don't know what actually happened. If the employee acted as was stated, it's a bit over the line. If your offended beacuse she didnt know the law, great, glad you know the law so well. If your offended at being called a terrorist grow a thicker skin. If your offended because you didn't get your picture, go back the next day.
If you railfan along railroad right away, on or near or miles from it, and you have a camera and scanner, etc. expect at some point to be hasseled. If you can't deal with the fact that someone at some point is going to hassle you, don't railfan. It is really unbecoming to come onto this forum and bring nothing to the discussion. Is this important, or relevant to other railfans, I really can't see how it is. So you ran across what might be a employee with bad attitude or bad day, so what.
When i'm at work i expect that I will be watched either by a company offical or railfan. However, if i see that either one is in danger or in a potentially dangerous position I will not hesitate to ask either to change what they are doing. If you railfan and myself or another empolyee asks you to leave, just do it, don't become a self appointed lawyer, or someone with an attitude. trust me, if i call the police and say to them, I have someone on the property or close to it and they are being beligerent, or otherwise disprespectful, you are going to have a very bad day. I have only asked a handful of railfans to leave, this was due to closeness to the tracks, or just acting in a strange manner. I have a duty to keep my fellow employess safe, my companies operations smooth, and protect the public. If at anytime I don't like the situation I will do what I can to change it.
We have many threats to the railroad everyday, we have many potential threats to the railroad. We live in a world were bad people do bad things to others. Do I think that we have gone to far, or being overly paranoid about those around us, maybe, but maybe we should have been looking out for these type of situations earlier.
Please, be respectful of others, be kind your fellow humans, and if someone is having a bad day and harrasing you just walk away. You will feel better for not having upset them further and maybe they will think twice next time and do the right thing. You don't know what transpired to your arrival at your location, maybe she had some disrespectful railfans before you arrived, you don't know and your whining about a trivial incident is unwarranted.
I find it amazing the same railfans on here always have the same troubles, when others on here never seem to have trouble, maybe you should look at your own actions and ask yourself am I the problem and if so change. Others on here have been told to get back, go away, or other such instructions and just deal with the situation.
I ralfanned for years before I worked for the railroad, I only had one run-in with railroad police, they said that they would prefer I leave, so I did. I didn't go back that area for awhile and when I did no longer had any problems, granted I never touched anything, never crossed tracks and never tried to approach buildings or other sensitvie areas. Railroads are dangerous places, heed the warning even if you don't like it and be kind to those that approach you, you never know you might change someones attitude if you use a little common courtesy which so many railfans seem to lack. A smile and a thank you go along way to put me at ease that you are not doing something illegal or harmful to my employeers bussiness.
Thank You
NOT SINGED (becasue it does not matter)
I dont beleive that Chad has the popcorn machine working overtime. I think he's using the microwavable popcorn. The radiation has to go somewhere.
csxengineer98 wrote: and for the reason why i was the first to get "hot" over this thread was that a fellow sister in service could get in some kind of trouble with the company due to the actions of one hurt feelings train buff...i cant stand people that have to make issue out of not being told they couldnt do something..there are alot of things i have been told i couldnt do..some in polite ways and others in ways that make what this woman said sound respectfull.. yet i didnt go off and have to write a letter..i sucked it up and moved on with my life.. csx engineer
Then why are you having major problems getting past this discussion?
Soo 6604 wrote:I dont beleive that Chad has the popcorn machine working overtime. I think he's using the microwavable popcorn. The radiation has to go somewhere. "Trouble Maker" Paul
And if it weren't for those meddeling kids, I would have gotten away with it.
Looking at Kevin's website pics, I see lots of people, even little kids, running all around the tracks, when the 611 was in town even when it was moving. That does not look safe at all.How bout taking pics of sensitive areas? Pics were being taken of everything. So terrorists are only active when not around people?
I just noticed his web site is down.
Murray wrote:Many times on this very forum, we have read instances where, for example, a policeman comes up and asks someone ot leave, and the railfan develops a case of "the nerve of that guy" attitude.
I just laugh when I hear this; I hope no one here ever has to put up with real harassment.
Poppa_Zit wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: and for the reason why i was the first to get "hot" over this thread was that a fellow sister in service could get in some kind of trouble with the company due to the actions of one hurt feelings train buff...i cant stand people that have to make issue out of not being told they couldnt do something..there are alot of things i have been told i couldnt do..some in polite ways and others in ways that make what this woman said sound respectfull.. yet i didnt go off and have to write a letter..i sucked it up and moved on with my life.. csx engineer Then why are you having major problems getting past this discussion?
someone above me put alot of my thoughts and feelings i have about this issue into a very well writin posting.. granted i am not a great oritor.. and i try to express myself as best i can on here.. but when i get "hot" my brain thinks faster then i can type..
in the 10 years i have been railroading..i have tried to be nice to most of you foamers..but it seems as the years go on.. more and more of you feel that you have a right to do what ever you want to do..and if somoene says no.. you get all bent out of shape...more and more of you are becomeing brazen with your actions and more and more confrentational... just look at some of the posts in this thread.. i have the right to bla bla bla..
Goober wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: Goober wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: csxengineer98 wrote: this is a case study in railroad/railfan relations.. insted of being respectfull when you come into "our house" (on public proporty or not you are watching the actions of our place of work..and the actions of us doing our jobs) and should be respectfull of US the EMPLOLYEES!!! that means if we ask you not to take pics then dont do it.. just move on to another location or something.. im sure that if we where to come to your place of work and take pics of you or your company doing what it dose and you didnt want your pic or the actions of the company photograghed you would say something to the person takeing the pics too... but this isnt about taking pics or the right to take pics from public proporty of trains..this is all becouse someone got there feelings hurt by a brash employee...bottom line!!!!csx engineer If you can stand on public property and take photos of me at work, have at it. if i knew what you did and where you worked out of..maybe i would in my time off.. but that isnt the point here.. this isnt about photos or the rights to do it from where.. its about someone being confronted granted in a less that profecinal mannor..and having his feelings hurt becouse the person used the word terrorist... re-read the letter dude.. it is all about that word and how his feelings where hurt and feeling insulted becouse the employee used it.. that is what this is all about.. some of you want to make this an issue of it was public proporty crap..that isnt what this is about at all..reread the first posting and the letter.. you will see the tone of his posting turn when that word was used.. not becouse he was asked not to take pics.. THAT IS THE BOTTOM LINE..DEAL WITH IT!!!! Well, DUDE, I did go back and read the 1st post, I also re-read the 2nd reply, and if I were to get excited over anyone, it would be that person. Do you recognise that person?? His mention of THE word was a secondary point, his main issue was that of the person and yelling inaccurate information and doing so in a unprofessional manner. I happen to agree with the original post, and also with all of what was said by Poppa_zit. AND, it really does come down to the issue of being on public property and being on private property. When on public property, one is allowed to take photo's of (in this instance) trains. It is not illegal!! Like another poster said, "when they are used commercially" that is a different issue. I also believe that he did the proper thing in not confronting, however, if I were him, I would have completely ignored the person on the "porch BEHIND the engine" and went about my business. I would rather deal with the local law enforcement than with a wannabe security person who has absolutely no authority beyond property lines. So, DUDE. chill and deal with it goes both ways. You were the 1st one to go hyper over this post.thanks,Jared here is my responce to this....... this is OUR house..public proporty or not.. if asked not to take pics regardless of the demeaner of the person saying it.then dont do it.. be respectfull to the job and the employees.. i stand by my statment that is has nothing to do with the pics as it is the exchange between the employee and the person... posting such as yours and this one that started this whole tread are a prime example of why some of use railroaders dont like rail buffs.. its the oh i wasnt doing anything wrong..but yet you where taking pics of me while i was working and maybe i was haveing a bad day and in a very POed mood and just didnt want my pic taken.. maybe i missed out on going to a wedding that day becouse i got called into work and there you are on a nice saterday afternoon track side taking pics injoying yourself when i have to work and "proform" for you like a circuse animal for your amusement and injoyment.. you might only think of it as equimpment or a building..but there is more to it then that.. the human side of things and being human myself there are days where i dont want to deal with people im working with let alone someone trying to take my pic while im working...so DUDE.. be respectfull if anyone asks you not to take any more pics regardless of where it is or what it of.. public proporty isnt a free licence to invade my place of work if i am not feeling photogenic that day!!!!csx engineer As in the my last response, you need to get something correct, you may ask me to not take your photo, and being a decent human being I should respect your request. Tell me that it is illegal to take your photo and we will continue to argue the point. Yes it is your house, don't make exceptions, because (and you are not going to like this) public property is NOT your house. Sorry!! Public property is not your place of work, then you would be a public employee and subject to different codes of conduct (probably be required to wear a vest).As far as your "sister" is concerned, she made a decision to do the wrong thing, don't make it worse by condoning it just for the sister/brotherhood. She made a mistake, if that causes her a penalty, welcome to the real world.Kudos to Paul a fellow railfan from Appleton in a following post.Jared
she may have been wrong with the laws regarding pic taking and the scanner use.. but the point still remains that regardless of who was right or wrong this is all over hurt feelings.. that is what this all boils down to..insted of just moving on and maybe another day or time if this happens agin be more willing to help "re-educate" the person in the wrong..not go cry to corp. about it.. being wrong is part life.. in my oppion both parties might have been wrong..her in the way she handled it..and him for the way he handled it.. his actions as i stated in a post already can make things alot more difficult for you to injoy your hobby if everytime anyone at that terminal desides to let "the law" come question you.. going to miss a few more shots of trains hwile they are running your personal info to check you out if they chose to on public land or not.. ..and that is the welcome to the real world of his actions
youngengineer wrote: If you railfan along railroad right away, on or near or miles from it, and you have a camera and scanner, etc. expect at some point to be hassled.
Methinks the issue is the manner in which one is "hassled."
If a police officer, railroad employee, or even a citizen on the street comes up to me and speaks in a civil tone, advising me that I am in the wrong, or at least I appear to be in the wrong, I'm going to speak with them civilly and we're going to resolve the issue. If I can't convince them I'm actually within my rights, or they convince me that I'm clearly out of bounds, I'll leave. I've been "hassled," my railfanning activities have been interrupted, but we all understand the why's and wherefors and things stay on an even keel.
But if I'm approached by someone sporting an air of righteous indignation, with said person spouting off things that are clearly not true or totally irrelavent, I'm probably going to put up a fight (verbal, not physical) and stand my ground. If said person has shown no credentials, I'll gladly wait for someone to show up who can.
We've seen plenty of examples here before of folks who have been challenged by overzealous authorities, citing non-existant laws. Of course, the balance isn't there - we don't hear about the folks who were asked to leave by perfectly calm officials, acting within the law, and did as requested.
As for being called a terrorist - I think that's just the perjorative term of the day. That's not to say that terrorists aren't bad. Rather had the woman in question not had "terrorist" to use, she probably would have used another derogatory term.
As a retired police officer I can assure you that you are absolutely correct. The initial attitude of the person in authority determines whether the situation is a civil conversation, or degenerates into a confrontation, and it doesn't really matter whether the person being approached is in the right, or the wrong.
A lesson which I wish the egocentric people in the District of Columbia would learn.
No, I'm not thinking of any one in particular.
....Perhaps we must slow down and agree to disagree.....
On the fan's side: Being on property other than that belonging to the RR....being called out for doing so in an arrogant manner....RR employee shouting out non existing laws {that fan is breaking}....carelessly, shouting descriptive "words" to fan that did not apply....and being shouted to, to leave for questionable reasons...{not getting feelings hurt as some have said}.....but demanding the fan leave, etc. while on property other than RR ROW {property}.....
On the RR's side: Feeling "someone" is "threatening property and operations"....Acting on the company's behalf to maintain safety....and security, etc....
From what we know, and I'd say we all have the same knowledge and that is from the first fan's post....We can't "cure" anything beyond what's already been discussed. So....we probably must agree to disagree.
SR1457 wrote:Well after 2 days and close to 200 opinions, this mystery is still unsolved, and after all is said, its all somebodys opinion and who really cares! lets get on to something more serious, like "Do you think Steam will make a comeback" This is a situation where you have a i said/ she said, as i stated before and you all know this, there is always 3 sides to a story, yours, mine, and the truth!
You know, you could just skip this particular thread if it's bothersome to you. I find it kind of fascinating that someone would not only write a letter to the railroad about this rather trivial matter but, would also post the letter on the internet as a sympathy ploy. If the letter gets any actual results at all they likely will be adverse for railfans because the local employees will dislike foamers that much more because of the letter.
Phoebe Vet wrote:Get used to it.Since 9/11 we have devolved into a neurotic paranoid society who's obsession with "security" borders on mental illness, and it gets more bizarre every day.We just recently passed the one million person milestone on the list of people who need to be extra hassled before deciding whether they should be allowed on an airplane, and a school district in Texas just voted to arm their teachers and staff with concealed handguns.I'm glad I am old. I am sad for my grandchildren. But then, since they don't remember the days when we had protections from runaway government, they probably won't miss it.
marknewton wrote: Phoebe Vet wrote:Get used to it.Since 9/11 we have devolved into a neurotic paranoid society who's obsession with "security" borders on mental illness, and it gets more bizarre every day.We just recently passed the one million person milestone on the list of people who need to be extra hassled before deciding whether they should be allowed on an airplane, and a school district in Texas just voted to arm their teachers and staff with concealed handguns.I'm glad I am old. I am sad for my grandchildren. But then, since they don't remember the days when we had protections from runaway government, they probably won't miss it. I agree, but it's not just runaway government to blame for your current ills, it's also the weak, gutless, lickspittle quislings amongst your own people who willingly acquiesce to this "security" regime. I'm astounded by some of the opinions expressed on this thread. When a bloke prepared to stand up for himself when confronted by someone abusing their limited or non-existant authority is derided as being a "troublemaker", I'd say you've got problems. For a country that proclaims itself to be the land of the brave and the free, you look remarkably like oppressed cowards from over here.
Wait until you have a major terrorist attack and come back and tell us how brave your country is. Has all this Chicken Little stuff gone too far? In my opinion it has but, it's kind of funny how attitudes change when 3,000 innocent civilians are murdered.
Mark:
While I think the slur is a little over the top, In fact I agree.
People totally ignore the fact that the death toll was so high on 9/11 because of the design of the buildings. The criminal act of flying into them was the trigger, but the design is the reason they collapsed in the fire.
In 1945, a B-25 bomber hit the 79th floor of the Empire State Building. The fuel tank exploded engulfing the 79th floor in fire. 11 people died and two dozen were injured. The building still stands today.
I have been flabbergasted at how easily my countrymen have been manipulated into voluntarily giving up so much.
I am now leaving this thread. Have fun.
ok..after i cooled off alittle and was able to collect my thoughts alittle regarding this issue...
one of the key issues that i have with the letter besides that i think it was an over reaction to a non issue.. is that being a railroader and haveing to deal with enought from the carrier and the FRA regarding rules compliance in order to protect my job from officals that want to fire anyone at the drop of a hate for not haveing there safty glasses on while walking to a ready track or getting a heavy fine from the FRA..then to have my job threatend from an outside factor such as an irate railfan is what got me fired up.. this case could set a presedent should the carrier take action aginst this woman for her actions... not only do i have to watch my butt from the company and goverment.. now i have to watch the rail buffs for fear of them turning me into the company becouse i wasnt polite enought for there likeing and they take some kind of action becouse i might have hurt there feelings or i didnt awenser there question that they might have asked me track side.. or hell..even wave... this job can be very stressfull enought as it is without the added stress of haveing railfans holding my livelyhood in there hands now too...
Now that we seemed to have moved into the political arena, why don't we just move onto other posts and threads on trains. This thread has run it's course. Lively conversation...as usual...
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