Went on a bit of a road trip today. Went to Bellevue, stopped at the museum for a while, railfanned around some, and then went to Fostoria. That's when I had something happen to me that I've read about online but never thought would happen to me, especially someplace like Fostoria. Anyways, here's the letter I sent to Norfolk Southern, CCing the City of Fostoria, detailing what happened:
To Whom It May Concern at Norfolk Southern:
I have been a railfan practically my entire life, ever since my parents gave me a Lionel train set for Christmas when I was two years old in 1976. On the afternoon of Saturday, August 16, 2008, I had an experience with one of your employees in Fostoria, Ohio, that has cast a dark shadow on my wanting to railfan in the future.
Prior to this past Saturday, I had last gone railfanning in 2004 when I took a four-day trip to the Altoona, Pennsylvania, area. Since then, I have wanted to go out railfanning again, but I haven't had the time or opportunity to do so until now. This past Saturday, I had planned on going on a road trip, going to Bellevue, Ohio, to see the Mad River and Nickel Plate Road Railroad Museum and railfan the area. On the way home, I had planned on doing some railfanning in Fostoria and Marion, Ohio.
At approximately 5:00PM, I was at the McDougal Street grade crossing at the east end of Norfolk Southern's Fostoria yard by the yard offices. I had my radio scanner and 35mm camera with me. I had parked my Jeep in the parking lot of a closed business on the north side of the street. I was taking some pictures of the yard area, staying on the street's pavement, not even stepping off onto the shoulder. I was also keeping off the tracks and Norfolk Southern property.
After about five minutes or so, a female employee sitting in a chair on the porch on the north side of the offices began to shout over to me. She was white, in her 20s or 30s, with light-brown or dark-blonde hair (possibly in a ponytail) and wearing a white or light-colored shirt.
I couldn't hear what she was saying due to traffic going by on the street. I asked her what she said, and she said, "Are you listening to our radio frequencies?" I told her that I was. She then said that it was "illegal." I know what she said was not true, but not wanting to get into an argument, I turned off my scanner. I was about to take a couple more pictures when she shouted to me, "You can't take pictures of our trains." I asked her, "Why not?" She then said, "Because I can call you in for being a terrorist." I was completely blown away by that. Again, I didn't want more trouble to be made. I simply told her "OK," got in my Jeep, and left.
After that incident, I seriously thought about leaving Fostoria and canceling my plans to visit other areas of the city. Instead, I went to the site for the future railfan park on Columbus Avenue. Thankfully, I had a much more positive experience there and at the former B&O station on Main Street.
However, I am still not happy with the way I was treated by your employee, and I even feel a bit insulted at being called a "terrorist." Would a terrorist be out in the open with a radio scanner and camera while wearing a T-shirt with an Erie Lackawanna SD45 and the EL logo on it?
Also, how can one of your employees be working in Fostoria and be so oblivious to the fact that Fostoria is such a railfan hotspot that the city is putting in a park for visiting railfans to watch trains, including those operated by Norfolk Southern?
Two railfans that I met on Saturday got into a discussion with me over the incident. We began wondering if she was even really a Norfolk Southern employee. With the shock on my part when this happened, I had not asked for her name or to see her ID. She just seemed to want to stay in her chair and shoo me off. I assumed she was a Norfolk Southern employee since she was at the yard offices and by how she said "our radio frequencies" and "our trains." If she was not an employee, then you have a serious security/safety issue in Fostoria since this is somebody on your property and representing your company to the public.
In regards to my activities, I was on public property the entire time I was there. Never at any time was I on Norfolk Southern property. I have also never heard of any laws stating that railfans are not allowed to listen to railroad radio frequencies for the sole purpose of finding out when and where trains or going to be to see them. If it is illegal, why are you allowing the park at Horseshoe Curve in Pennsylvania to broadcast Norfolk Southern's radio frequencies on speakers for visitors at the park to hear? As far as taking pictures of trains, this person was in extreme error. I could understand it if I were sneaking around, trespassing, or tampering with equipment. However, I was doing none of those things. I believe your employees should familiarize themselves with the truth about photography laws (http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf).
As a railfan, I am doing more than just taking pictures of trains. I am also watching for issues that may cause a problem or hazard for your trains and their crews. I also have the 800 emergency number from Norfolk Southern's website stored on my cell phone in case I should ever need it.
While the incident in Fostoria may be over now, I am still upset and insulted by what happened, and I am demanding that this be looked into. I am also sending a copy of this e-mail to the City of Fostoria. Since they invite railfans to their city, I fell that they should know how your company treats their visitors.
Sincerely,
Kevin L. Wagner<personal contact info removed>
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
hmm should have come west to deshler.There are some definate no no places around fostoria.F tower being one of them.Both CSX and NS have had problems with those taking pictures and the general public tresspassing on their property.They also watch their neighboors property (like gm security does here defiance).The thing to do is mind your P's and q's and move on.Fostoria has alot more picture opprotunities than just the east end of blair yard.It would also be a good idea to stay away from the auto mixing center off of rt 12 as well.
stay safe
joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
well i hope you just didnt get someone fired due to them doing there job.. contrary to what rail fans would want to think.. we railroaders are told to confront and discourge photos of key loctions on railroad proporty for sercurity reasons.. and as for your look like a terrorist comment.. was timmy mcvay (sp) look like a terrorist to you? but he was a home grown demestic one..so yes ANYONE can look and be a terrorist....this is why we are tought what we are thought.. where you where taking pics might have been in the eyes of NS a key area and dosnt want it photographed..
csx engineer
.....Sure must be a fine line how to railfan anymore.....judging from what Kevin has written of his experience...I have to side with him.
Being located off RR property and vehicle parked off RR property, and standing out in the plain view to do a bit of railfaning, shouldn't exhibit terrorist characteristics.
I understand the RR employee's must have a directory to conform to from their employer to "take care of their operations on their property", but they too must use some common sense.
Sorry, I can't see that Ken was doing anything illegal if there are in fact no laws dictating the use of cameras and portable scanners in that community....What did he do wrong.....?
I don't blame him for expressing his frustration.
Quentin
its not a question of him being on public proporty or not.. it is a fact that the railroads have assessed security risks and feel that some things on the proporty can be considered possable targets for attack.. as i said befor we as employees in this post 9-11 day and age are to discourge pic taking of what the railroad as deamed as off limits regardless if it is someone taking it from a public road or not.. go try and take a pic of an oil refinery or a chemical plant and see what happens even if your on public proporty... and the same thing applys to the railroad.. what this person feels he was doing wasnt wrong but there might have been something near by that they dont want you to take a pic of..they dont know what your taking pics of.. no one thought the hijackers of the planes befor 9-11 takeing flight lessons at a public fight school where threats either till it was to late.. the might not have been a threat..but what about that one person that is and is gathering intelicane for a possable attack down the road.. the person that tried to discourge the pics was in the right becouse of the above statement reagarding possable target statement.. just becouse someone dosnt look like the "sterio typical" terrorist donst mean that someone isnt one.. a terrorist can be a railfan just as easy as not be one too and the railroads arnt willing to take the risk of "oh its just a crazy foamer there..dont worry about it" anymore on public proproty or not...
....I suppose the suggestion {in another post}, regarding "being hassled", and if the person so thought he was, to go and call the police to have a direction from them whether he was violating any laws at the location he was "fanning" from.
I wonder what a court of law would decide if the facts were just as Kevin described then above in his post.......?
Modelcar
I have found that is eaisier to mind your P"S and Q's and move on.There are other places to take pictures of trains.Did he have the "closed buissness owners permission" to park his vehicle in their parking lot. More than likely a deputy would have come and just asked him to leave anyway.
i just hope that a fellow railroad employee dosnt get in some kind of trouble for what i feel is an over reaction to being asked not to take pics.. granted she might have gone about it alittle bit more tactfull but no everyone will... if she dose end up on some kind of suspention as a ressult of this "letter" it is one more reason for railroaders to have a contempt for rail fans if you ask me..
Kevin,
Sorry about your incident. Marion is definitely railfan friendly. With the two sets of double-diamonds, it's about as close to the action as you can get - both with your camera AND your ears.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Quentin is right, it is a fine line nowadays.... and CSXengineer is correct as well in his comment "Just try taking photos of a refinery, even if you are on public property"..... I had an experience last summer (related in 2 other forum threads) where I was taking photos of the BNSF from a bridge adjacent to a refinery, and I was stopped and questioned by the refinery security and the local police.
One must mind their P's and Q's these days. To be honest a terrorist doing reconnaisance is going to do his level best to look as harmless as possible. They will go to lengths to blend in and look as innocuous as possible to anyone who might be casually observing them. No Islamic terrorist is going to go around gathering information looking like, well, a terrorist. Whenever I am confronted, or asked to leave, I simply do that, I leave. Am I letting my "rights" be violated? No, I don't think so, I am just avoiding a stupid argument. There are hundreds of locations for photography around here, I am not going to sweat it if a railroad cop, or local cop says "leave".
I have found, in general, that local law enforcement, as well as Railroad Police will go easy on you if you are cooperative. If you start arguing, then the cop is going to figure you have something to hide, and is going to make sure the questioning takes place somewhere other than trackside.
As far as the woman at the NS yard office... she may have been acting on instructions from a supervisor, or, she just didn't want you around, or she was just doing her job. Was she incorrect about the scanner and the taking of photos? Of course she was, but arguing with her would have made it worse.
csxengineer98 wrote: well i hope you just didnt get someone fired due to them doing there job.. csx engineer
well i hope you just didnt get someone fired due to them doing there job..
csxengineer98 wrote:well i hope you just didnt get someone fired due to them doing there job.. contrary to what rail fans would want to think.. we railroaders are told to confront and discourge photos of key loctions on railroad proporty for sercurity reasons.. and as for your look like a terrorist comment.. was timmy mcvay (sp) look like a terrorist to you? but he was a home grown demestic one..so yes ANYONE can look and be a terrorist....this is why we are tought what we are thought.. where you where taking pics might have been in the eyes of NS a key area and dosnt want it photographed.. csx engineer
I don't know about CSX but, my railroad doesn't want us to confront people for OUR safety. We can ask/suggest that they leave but confrontations are for the railroad police to handle. In this day and age if you get mouthy with the wrong guy(s) and you might end up with holes in you.
Get used to it.
Since 9/11 we have devolved into a neurotic paranoid society who's obsession with "security" borders on mental illness, and it gets more bizarre every day.
We just recently passed the one million person milestone on the list of people who need to be extra hassled before deciding whether they should be allowed on an airplane, and a school district in Texas just voted to arm their teachers and staff with concealed handguns.
I'm glad I am old. I am sad for my grandchildren. But then, since they don't remember the days when we had protections from runaway government, they probably won't miss it.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
...."Get used to it"....sure maybe we'll have to. But this is still the land of freedom. If you think you have been "wronged"....Stick up for yourself and find out if you have....If you care to get into all you must to do so. We aren't yet destined to be "bossed" and "dictated" by RR employees regardless if you're not even close to their property.
Their property and work area....Stay away from it. That is their work area and responsibility, but beyond that we have a right to question someone "bullying" us what we can do.
I have to agree with several that suggest...."just leave, etc....", sure if you have your mind set on railfanning that day, leave and go somewhere else as opposed to confrontation.
We all have our Freedom rights yet and if you want to maintain them, speak up in court if you must, that is if you feel you must challange.
I've read over the replies to my original post, and I have some additional thoughts on the matter.
I can understand if somebody is being cautious and just checking me out to see what I am up to, but the employee in question did not do that. She only said that my railfanning activities were illegal, which is flat out not true. Had she either had me checked out or said that I could not take pictures from that location or of those facilities, it would have been different, but she implied that taking pictures of any trains was a possible act of terrorism and threatened to call me in.
I also want to say that it was not my intent by my letter to get anybody "fired". Whatever course of action, if any, Norfolk Southern decides to take, it is up to them, not me. This woman was there addressing me, the public, and casting herself as a representative of the company she worked for. She didn't just say that I wasn't allowed to take pictures of the yard there. She said that I wasn't allowed to listen to their radio frequencies or take pictures of their trains, which would imply that it goes for anywhere on Norfolk Southern.
Kevin
I'd be interested in know just how hard the original poster was at trying to be inconspicuous while he was fanning.
From the description of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.
In short, you drew attention to yourself.
You should have been more aware of your surroundings. Clearly from your description you were not.
csxengineer98 wrote: i just hope that a fellow railroad employee dosnt get in some kind of trouble for what i feel is an over reaction to being asked not to take pics.. granted she might have gone about it alittle bit more tactfull but no everyone will... if she dose end up on some kind of suspention as a ressult of this "letter" it is one more reason for railroaders to have a contempt for rail fans if you ask me..csx engineer
It would have been much better for this employee to have said something like "We've been told by our employer to report anyone taking pictures here or with a scanner to the railroad or local police" rather than to improperly quote the laws (this fellow was NOT doing anything illegal from what I just read.
I am still irritated with this subject.
No cameras, no scanners, on private property - two different locations - and yet some young man in a BNSF truck yelled at us - both locations. BNSF wanted railfans to look out for their property and call in problems and all was kiss-kiss, hug-hug and then they send out employees who have no clue how to handle public relations.
I am all for safety, respecting property and will work very hard to abide by the rules. But don't send out some nasty-attitude railroad person to expound the position of "9/11, homeland security and who would want to sit and watch someone working anyway?" A courteous explanation and reasons why - even on private property - would have been end of story for us. We would have moved, been pleased to do so and spread the word among others what the rules were. Just like good BNSF watchers.
If railroads are going to send out "enforcers" then teach them some civility and tact - not just to go out and threaten people!
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Murray wrote: I'd be interested in know just how hard the original poster was at trying to be inconspicuous while he was fanning.From the dsescription of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.In short, you drew attention to yourself. You should have been more aware of your surroundings. Clearly from your description you were not.
From the dsescription of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.
So, when I'm out railfanning again, I need to act secretive and suspicious? I'd be more suspicious of somebody who says that they're railfanning and doesn't look the part (ie. no scanner, camera, or anything to suggest what they are doing there).
And I was well aware of my surroundings. I was aware of the yard offices being right there. However, there are no signs or anything that I could see that prohibited photography from that street. The only signs I saw prohibiting any illegal activities there were the signs that said "No Trespassing N&W Rwy".
I could go either way on this one, depending on how I am railfanning. I have 2 basic styles of railfanning. When I am traveling (alot lately) I am usually going from point A to B and doing hit and run railfanning along the way. When this is the case I am usually not in one spot long enough to be suspicious to anyone and would be long gone by the time a LEO could respond. If something like this happened I would most likley not wan't to spend the time dealing with it anyway.
Then there is my other style, find a good spot, set up the chair(s), break out the cooler, ect.,and watch the show. If a similar incident happend then I would stand my ground (unless instructed to leave by someone WITH the authority to do so). I'm not saying this is the best way to handle it, but it is the way I would. I'm not one to be pushed around and I hate to see it happen to others. I hate it when good people allow the authorities to bully them around, especially those that only think they have authurity. I'm not saying this always happens. I'm just saying stand your ground, have a backbone. So what if a LEO questions you. I don't want to have to answer a bunch of questions either, but really what is the big deal. I would rather have that then see us loose more rights (or freedoms if you rather) simply by allowing it to happen by doing nothing.
As to the original post...Kevin, I think what you did was warranted. If my employee (either as a owner or manager) was acting that unproffessionaly representing my company I would certainly want to know about it. There are so many ways she could have been more professional about it.
chatanuga wrote:So, when I'm out railfanning again, I need to act secretive and suspicious? I'd be more suspicious of somebody who says that they're railfanning and doesn't look the part (ie. no scanner, camera, or anything to suggest what they are doing there). And I was well aware of my surroundings. I was aware of the yard offices being right there. However, there are no signs or anything that I could see that prohibited photography from that street. The only signs I saw prohibiting any illegal activities there were the signs that said "No Trespassing N&W Rwy".
No, that's not what I said. Your "actions" brought attention to yourself. Thats why the lady yelled at you.
And since when is it a requirement to have cameras, scanners etc when you railfan? I do it all the time and usually have none of those items with me.
chad thomas wrote: I think what you did was warranted. If my employee (either as a owner or manager) was acting that unproffessionaly representing my company I would certainly want to know about it. There are so many ways she could have been more professional about it.
OK, now just how are you in a position to judge how "professional" a person acts on the job?
Many times on this very forum, we have read instances where, for example, a policeman comes up and asks someone ot leave, and the railfan develops a case of "the nerve of that guy" attitude.
I would also point out that we on have one persons side of the story here. We don't have ALL the facts. Unless or until we do, I would not lay blame entirely on the railroad employee.
Murray wrote: chad thomas wrote: I think what you did was warranted. If my employee (either as a owner or manager) was acting that unproffessionaly representing my company I would certainly want to know about it. There are so many ways she could have been more professional about it.OK, now just how are you in a position to judge how "professional" a person acts on the job?Many times on this very forum, we have read instances where, for example, a policeman comes up and asks someone ot leave, and the railfan develops a case of "the nerve of that guy" attitude.I would also point out that we on have one persons side of the story here. We don't have ALL the facts. Unless or until we do, I would not lay blame entirely on the railroad employee.
Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them.
I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too.
chad thomas wrote:Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them. I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too.
You're absolutely correct Chad...but as I mentioned earlier, we have but one side of the story. That does not make the railfan to be "in the right".
Without all the facts, its impossible to determine who was in the right or not.
Wow. where to start?
Let's see. The woman. You are assuming she is an employee. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. Who knows. Sure yelling at you isn't the way to go about it - but she probably didn't want to confront you (and if she was a RR employee, she was told not to confront anyone). Maybe she was having a bad day, or maybe she is a (insert derrogative term of your choosing here). But guess what? That's life.
Now the original poster. The letter was a little much. She didn't really harass you - just yelled misinformation at you. You could have smiled and waved. What's the worst that she could have done? Call the police? Meh. But to type out a long letter saying how you are the RR's eyes and ears? That is a little dramatic. Your letter will be glanced over and thrown out as soon as you bring up the fact you are a railfan. Sorry, that is the truth. Railfans get no respect from RR managers (and I'm saying this as a railfan and an employee).
So, welcome to life. Grow up and move on. You will always be taking flak for this hobby - so stop taking so much offense.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Murray wrote: chad thomas wrote:Sitting there yelling about the law to someone is most definatly not professional. There are much better ways to handle the situation. And copping an attitude is certainly not one of them. I'm not saying we should have an attitude, or get mouthy. I just think we should stand our ground if we are not breaking any laws or causing any harm. I'm sick of this post 911 excuse BS too. You're absolutely correct Chad...but as I mentioned earlier, we have but one side of the story. That does not make the railfan to be "in the right".Without all the facts, its impossible to determine who was in the right or not.
I agree , I didn't mean to sound like I had all the facts. It was a soapbox post
Perhaps the reason they are building the railfan park is to keep people away from the place the OP was chased out of.
But still, if they don't want photos taken there, they should put up some signs.
Reality TV is to reality, what Professional Wrestling is to Professional Brain Surgery.
Since I happen to be both a railfan and a railroad employee I have been reading this posting with much interest.
First of all, the sum total of my post 9-11 "training" on how to deal with the terorist threat consisted of a 20 minute video wich sugested that I simply ask trespassers to leave railroad property and to be weary of anyone asking questions about railroad operations. That was it, the company did not train us to confront people who were not on railroad property much less yell and threaten them. Nor did the training video sugest that scanners and cammeras in and of themselves were a threat to the company.
Railroad employees who badger railbuffs on the grounds of security are most likely using security as an excusse to be jerks. It is as simple as that I am sorry to say. Most of my coworkers either ignore railfans or welcome them with open arms. It's only a small hand full who are openly abussive to railfans, mainly because they have defective personalities. Try not to feel to bad, just imagine if you had to work alongside (or worse under) these individuals. I suspect the woman who started this subject probably jumped on some poor coworker's case about something stupid after she chased off the original poster.
As long as you are not on railroad property I would recomend ignoring these individuals, just wave to them and smile since they have no authority over you if you are not trespassing. If they do call the police, fine then just move along and come back to the same location later.
Just remember, jerks are everywhere try not to let them get you down.
Scott
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