I remembered this photo on my website and thought I'd post it to show where everything happened. This is originally from 1996.
The woman was on the porch of the white building behind the locomotive in the picture. I was at the stop line for the crossing on the right.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
Murray wrote: I'd be interested in know just how hard the original poster was at trying to be inconspicuous while he was fanning.From the dsescription of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.In short, you drew attention to yourself. You should have been more aware of your surroundings. Clearly from your description you were not.
I'd be interested in know just how hard the original poster was at trying to be inconspicuous while he was fanning.
From the dsescription of his letter (i.e. scanner stc) he was not.
In short, you drew attention to yourself.
You should have been more aware of your surroundings. Clearly from your description you were not.
I've said it before and I'll say it again... When out railfanning, be as conspicuous as possible. Sorry Murray, but I disagree with your advice. By trying to be inconspicuous a person will lend the appearance of clandestinity, something that will warrant an all out code 3 response by the authorities if you are seen meddling about. Want to be mistaken as a possible threat? I don't.
Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk. It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
By being as conspicuous as possible and dressing appropriately, you convey the message that safety is important to you and that you wish to be seen at all times; no surprises. It also has the effect of causing passersby and undesirable element to leave you alone. This is particularly helpful, especially if you're in a not-so-friendly part of town.
Now... It's time to hear from the critics in the peanut gallery.
Ted M.
got trains?™
See my photos at: http://tedmarshall.rrpicturearchives.net/
But to type out a long letter saying how you are the RR's eyes and ears? That is a little dramatic. Your letter will be glanced over and thrown out as soon as you bring up the fact you are a railfan.
Oh, one more thing. Someone in HQ will send a memo out on the fine job the Female employee did. Some VP in Legal will copy out the memo to her supervisor, with a recommendation to be promoted. (a memo from the VP is never a recommendation, what it really means is, do it yesterday).
Thus is the reality of Railroading.
Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk.
That will ring bells all over the place. A crew will dial up the DS and say, "Hey, someone out there is impersonating a railroader, that don't look right to me." DS presses his magic button in HQ, and gumshoes and the constabulary are dispatched to check out the suspicious person in a vest.
If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
RRKen wrote:If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
RRKen wrote: Again, I advise wearing a bright, reflective safety vest, jeans or other durable material pants, steel-toe boots and safety glasses when out railfanning, even if you're on public property such as the street or sidewalk.That will ring bells all over the place. A crew will dial up the DS and say, "Hey, someone out there is impersonating a railroader, that don't look right to me." DS presses his magic button in HQ, and gumshoes and the constabulary are dispatched to check out the suspicious person in a vest. If you interrupted their coffee break or lunch, your toast buddy.
C'mon Ken... I know you're smarter than that. You know that impersonation involves telling someone that you're something that you're not and that dressing safely doesn't constitute impersonation.
And... What's that about my toast? My toast is my toast. They'd better not touch it.
But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...or a contractor where he doesn't belong.
One radio conversation I heard from a shared assets DS: "those contractors were told NOT to be on the tracks. If they are on the tracks when you go by, I'm sending out the police to arrest them!!"
DS was not happy. And I never heard the ending to the story...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Ted Marshall wrote:C'mon Ken... I know you're smarter than that. You know that impersonation involves telling someone that you're something that you're not and that dressing safely doesn't constitute impersonation.
I am? Heck my brothers and I going down the tracks don't know what the heck you are. Are you a manager testing? Are you MoW, (in which case we need to use whistle and bell going by you)?
If no one has any information about you, we drop the dime. That get up has all the makings of either a managers testing, or impersonation. Personally we don't care, it's our jobs. If I blow by you, and someone notices I did not do as I was supposed to, I get the brownie points.
Try this on. I see a guy, with a blue shirt and blue pants, he has something shiney pinned above his pocket, what is he???????? If that is too deep, try this. Do you go to the police station dressed as a cop, to take photos of their squad cars???????? Do you go to a military installation dressed in fatigues to get shots of the tanks and hummers?
You are dressed out of the ordinary, and stick out like a stalk of corn in a bean field.
zugmann wrote:But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...
Allow me to refer you to what I stated in my reply to Ken:
Ted Marshall wrote:It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
There's a product that might have a market:
A vest or t-shirt that says "RAILFAN" in large reflective letters.
I agree that someone who LOOKS like a RR employee on or near RR property should be politely checked out.
I agree that someone ON RR property can be politely ordered off or even arrested if they have climbed a fence, passed a no trespassing sign, or are tampering with RR stuff.
HOWEVER...
When a person or company is operating their business in plain view of the public, they have no expectation of privacy and therefore no right to try to prevent viewing or photographing from a place where a person peacefully conducting himself has a right to be. They do, of course, have the right to control any commercial use of the images.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple. Nothing really wrong with it. You can get to more places with a clipboard than with a set of bolt cutters. I bet you can drive around rr yards all day if you have a white jeep cherokee, too. Kind of like the wannabes that drive ford police interceptors with spotlights and grill guards.
And no, I don't think railfans are going to start dressing up like MOW anytime soon. Usually the $1000 camera is hint enough for me.
Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote:But you still will cause the cops to come out to see who you are. And someone dressed up like MOW? I'd be thinking scrap metal thieves myself...Allow me to refer you to what I stated in my reply to Ken: Ted Marshall wrote:It works for me as I've been to many security sensitive places along the tracks and haven't had any problem whatsoever. I've even been told by railroad workers and police that if other railfans followed my example there would be fewer railfan related problems for them to deal with.
They also have the right to ask reasonable questions from those people. You also have the right to tell them to pound sand... I wouldn't advise that, but...
Phoebe Vet wrote:When a person or company is operating their business in plain view of the public, they have no expectation of privacy and therefore no right to try to prevent viewing or photographing from a place where a person peacefully conducting himself has a right to be. They do, of course, have the right to control any commercial use of the images.
RRKen wrote: I am? Heck my brothers and I going down the tracks don't know what the heck you are. Are you a manager testing? Are you MoW, (in which case we need to use whistle and bell going by you)? If no one has any information about you, we drop the dime. That get up has all the makings of either a managers testing, or impersonation. Personally we don't care, it's our jobs. If I blow by you, and someone notices I did not do as I was supposed to, I get the brownie points. Try this on. I see a guy, with a blue shirt and blue pants, he has something shiney pinned above his pocket, what is he???????? If that is too deep, try this. Do you go to the police station dressed as a cop, to take photos of their squad cars???????? Do you go to a military installation dressed in fatigues to get shots of the tanks and hummers? You are dressed out of the ordinary, and stick out like a stalk of corn in a bean field.
Well... I guess we agree to disagree.
I must be the only one here who believes that safety starts with me and by that I mean dressing conspicuously and in safety attire. I also suppose by your assertion that the guy I see every night riding his bike with a reflective vest on must be impersonating someone else too.
Also, while wearing a police uniform DOES constitute impersonation of a law enforcement officer, a crime... wearing safety attire DOES NOT constitute impersonation of anyone, no crime there. It's just a clear attempt at being safe... That's all.
You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker).
*Unless you are in an area where you had to hike, or there is nasty brush, ticks, etc.
I'm going to go out qucik for some ralfanning. I'm wearing a polo shirt, jeans, (my regular work apparel) but will leave behind the safety glasses and boots (I wore them all day yesterday.. enough of that crap).
zugmann wrote: You can get to more places with a clipboard than with a set of bolt cutters. I bet you can drive around rr yards all day if you have a white jeep cherokee, too.
Indeed, if you see the white Cherokee, word of it travels fast, and everyone is on the lookout. Chances are in larger terminals, you can do what you want unmolested.
On this property, we must ask to see I.D. of anyone who appears to be an employee on the property. Even cab drivers have them now.
My job is safety. I teach it, I observe it, I live it. I come in contact with everyone working in the terminal almost daily, or at least I try. That also includes those who work in out of town depots that are part of this terminal. If I see a person with a vest I don't know, I am asking questions. I will also inform the Roadmaster, Terminal Trainmaster, signal, B&B, or new construction of the situation. Most times they will say drop the dime, and they respond.
The safety and welfare of my fellow employees come first.
zugmann wrote: It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple.
It is because they think you are an official or contractor and belong there. Deception, plain and simple.
Wrong... They know I'm a railfan. When I'm asked I tell them. Like I stated before, I've been told by railroad employees I've talked to while out railfanning and police officers who've stopped to make chit chat that if OTHER RAILFANS followed my example there would be fewer RAILFAN related problems for them to deal with.
It's clear to me that you prefer to fly below the radar when pursuing your passion. That's fine and I respect that. I, however, want everyone to see me and if there's any problem feel free to come over to talk to me. I'll tell you exactly who I am and what I'm doing. No deception there.
SR1457 wrote:Give it up Keven, there isnt one soul on here that can do anything but offer their opinion, there are always 3 sides to a story, yours, theirs, and the truth! deal with it, all we have heard is your side, and just from your posts it seems that you may be a younger person, with a very hard head, something we all have gone through at one point in our life!
Well, I'm glad that 34 is still considered young.
As far as a hard head, no, I don't think so. I just haven't been able to get out railfanning for a few years, and the first time I go out, this happens. Now, I have been stopped by police before, and in that case, I can understand why it happened.
Back in the summer of 1995, some friends of mine and I were living just off the Heidelberg College campus in Tiffin, Ohio for the summer. During that summer, I was going over to the parking lot on the north side of campus along the CSX tracks on the weekends to catch the Broadway go through before Amtrak discontinued it that fall. One night, I was standing at the edge of the parking lot when a Tiffin cop shows up. He asks me what I was doing there, and I explained to him that I was out railfanning and waiting to watch the Broadway go through. He left. About a half hour later, another officer shows up on the street on the other side of the tracks and stops. That's when I saw the first officer pull up next to me again. Apparently the reason they were taking so much interest in me was because a resident by the tracks had seen me and called me in as somebody who appeared to be getting ready to commit suicide. I explained to them about my love of trains and about my layout that I had at my parents' house. They took down my information for their report that they had to file and left it at that.
Now, in that case, I can see sending somebody out to seriously check out somebody near the tracks. However, in the incident that happened yesterday, all anybody had to do was ask what I was up to rather than just falsely claim that what I was doing was illegal. That is where I'm having the issue with what happened.
zugmann wrote: You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker).
So, I guess by your assertion that people shouldn't wear safety attire at all unless it's absolutely necessary. Sorry, but I think that's absurd.
I bet the railfan didn't wave at the lady at the white building.
Thats what probably caused this conundrum.
Murray wrote: I bet the railfan didn't wave at the lady at the white building.Thats what probably caused this conundrum.
I disagree... He probably DID wave... We all know how condemned that action is around here.
Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote: You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker). So, I guess by your assertion that people shouldn't wear safety attire at all unless it's absolutely necessary. Sorry, but I think that's absurd.
Ted, your response to Zugmann it itself makes no sense whatsoever.
Murray wrote: Ted Marshall wrote: zugmann wrote: You should not be close enough to the tracks to WARRANT safety apparel*. Unless you are wearing it for car traffic (like the biker). So, I guess by your assertion that people shouldn't wear safety attire at all unless it's absolutely necessary. Sorry, but I think that's absurd.Ted, your response to Zugmann it itself makes no sense whatsoever.
To you perhaps... which is completely understandable.
Ok so lets just let all the rainfans run amuck...and safety and security be darned.
How 'bout that?
Just for the chance to take a picture of a train?
There are laws against impersonating law enforcement personnel, even if just by dress. Necessary on all counts because we have been instructed almost since birth to respect and obey law enforcement personnel to preserve an orderly society.
But I cannot believe some of the comments above, many directed by people claiming to be railroaders, at Ted. I word this carefully because I cannot be sure everyone on an open forum like this using assumed names really are what they claim to be just to somehow make their opinion more "valid".
That said, what's the matter with you people? Since when did it become illegal to dress similar to a contractor or railroad worker off railroad property? It will be a sad day indeed when someone -- anyone -- starts telling me how I may or not dress. I'll be gol-darned if someone is going to tell me to wear "RAILFAN" across my back -- just for their convenience. I will if those who qualify wear "JERK" on their backs.
Last time I checked, this was still a free country, and right now there are over a quarter million heroes in the Middle East doing everything they can so a poor schlub like me can -- among other things -- dress however he chooses without worrying about offending someone. Or stand on public property and make pictures of trains.
So I'll take the opposite stance. Maybe it's time for all railroad employees to dress alike, clean, sharp uniforms that identify them as such with "RAILROAD EMPLOYEE" in 8-inch letters across the back. Then maybe the railroads in their zeal to stifle wannabees, railfans and terrorists, can lobby Congress to change the constitution and make it illegal to impersonate a uniformed railroad worker.
Silly? Sure. But sorry, gang, there's a world of difference between wearing a safety vest and a law enforcement badge. Badges are not legally available to anyone outside the law enforcement community and there are laws against it. Safety vests do not fall into that category, neither do hardhats, jeans and steel-toed shoes.
And regarding the Yelling Woman in the original post. It is out of line to tell the author he shouldn't do so because it could get the woman fired by writing the letter. He did exactly what his freedoms allow him to do. If she was acting as instructed, yelling from a distance, dispensing misinformation, ordering him off public property and failing to identify herself, she should be promoted right away. If not, she should be suspended or fired.
That's how it works in the real world, and I'm not sure that's how the railroad wants its employees to interface with the public under any circumstances.
Poppa_Zit wrote: That's how it works in the real world...
This isn't the real world...this is trains.com
Murray wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: That's how it works in the real world...This isn't the real world...this is trains.com
Yeah. Where I can come to have anonymous people tell me how they'd like me to behave. Just what I need.
chatanuga wrote: I remembered this photo on my website and thought I'd post it to show where everything happened. This is originally from 1996.The woman was on the porch of the white building behind the locomotive in the picture. I was at the stop line for the crossing on the right.Kevin
Porch, what porch? I don't see a porch or anything else that would hold something the size of a chair for her to sit on.
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