An "expensive model collector"
There was one trip to Chicago where we took a wrong turn and ended up in a very bad neighborhood. We ended up getting pulled over and the cop asked what we were doing in this part of town. Told him that we took a wrong turn and was trying to find our way out. He ended up giving us a police escort to a better place. All i remember was that there was abandoned cars with not much on them, steel bars on all the windowd, graffitti everywhere and the El
Another time was in Kansas City. We just knew we were in a bad neighborhood where the police station even had steel bars on the windows and door along with a church.
Paul
http://www.youtube.com/user/pavabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvbox
Go here for my rail shots! http://www.railpictures.net/showphotos.php?userid=9296
Building the CPR Kootenay division in N scale, blog here: http://kootenaymodelrailway.wordpress.com/
....In general, if one is interested in older depots in cities....they usually are located in questionable parts of the city. Have railfaned in one in the east {up on the platforms}, and at times have felt potential but never did have any trouble. Suppose one has to use good common sense.
Quentin
Well, yes...
Back in my younger days (between ten and twenty years ago), I did a lot more bicycling than I do now. Our friends from Michigan were coming down to their campsite in Portage, Indiana, and--since it was trackside, as mentioned in the camping thread--I decided I'd bike the 80 or so miles from Lombard to get there, while my wife and girls drove over, took Mrs. M. strawberry-picking, then joined us for supper at the campsite.
My biking route took me through some nice places (Downers Grove, Hinsdale, LaGrange), and some not-so-nice places (Robbins, Blue Island, Dolton, Calumet City), and into Indiana. Just as I entered Gary, I got a flat tire. About that time, I said, "This would make a sane person nervous!" I looked for a gas station that would help, but nobody dealt with inner tubes any more. Finally I was directed to an auto-parts store in a section of town I was totally unfamiliar with, where I bought a patch kit and attempted to make a repair on the steps of Gary's police department! A couple of folks stopped to watch, including one elderly lady who said "It's been over twenty years since I saw anyone do that!" I hope that that long-ago person had better results than I, because the patch didn't hold very well. I had to stop several times to pump up the tire again, and finally gave up at Miller, where I was rescued by Mr. M, only about seven miles short of my destination.
Lessons learned: never take a long bike trip without a spare inner tube. To heck with those patches! Also, the majority of folks you meet in places like Gary are pretty decent.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Yes -
As soon as you enter the city limits of Milwaukee you are in no-man's land. I've tried to follow the old beer line on the northeast side of the city, and for the most part the line is in okay neighborhoods. I still wouldn't want to hang out there after dark, but at least in the light you feel somewhat okay. The part of the line that still has the tracks in place (WSOR just filed to abandon even more of it) is not that nice a neighborhood and I wouldn't go walking thataway unless I had some help from Mr. Smith and his associate Mr. Wesson. Even then you are really playing some games. I've tried numerous times to locate the North Milwaukee yard where the beer line intersects the Milwaukee Road lines from Horicon and Grafton, but that yard is very hard to access without trespassing so I've given up on that one. That area of the city is in real rough shape, too. You have to weigh your safety with your need to see something historical, and in that section of town I'd much rather play it safe.
Something I've always wondered - what do the train crews do when they work in those areas? I can't even imagine the amount of crap they have to put up with. I've worked on construction sites on Teutonia, North, and Capitol Drive, and I can't even begin to imagine what a pain in the *** it must be in dealing with those people at night. We had tools stolen in broad daylight, prostitutes soliciting right in the middle of the site, and even a few shootings at one site (the masons saw one guy running like mad with another guy chasing after him pulling the trigger as fast as you could). You don't even bother calling the cops for theft - the few times we did (while the theft was in progress) the cops took about 45 minutes to show up. They might as well have saved themselves the effort. Given all that garbage on construction sites - what do train crews do when they have to handle the same stuff?
....I've thought of that Carl in the recent past doing a bit of riding on our trail. Never did have trouble though, but then I've not done a fraction of the miles Carl talks about.
Do you carry any bike wrenches with you Carl....How about a small tire pump, etc.....
Finally last year we purchased some LED tail lights and new headlights for riding our bikes here in the neighborhood...{not that it's dangerous from people}, but if we're out and it's getting dark, bingo we have lights. And those LED units you can see for a mile and the batteries last for up to 100 hrs....! They can be set to blink in several different patterns...Neat.
I happen to have a 12 volt generator and light on my 5 speed bike but that works the same as a dynamic brake. But now I have them both anyway.
Columbus, Ohio - the focus of most rail action is the site of the late Scioto Tower, literally in the shadow of downtown. It's the crossing of the ex-PRR Columbus-Cincinnati main, the ex NYC West Virgina line (which carries a great deal of transfer traffic), and the ex-C&O Russell-Toledo Main. While not truly "dangerous", it's smack-dab in the middle of the local homeless "camping area" - I've been solicted for a handout on about half my visits. I've considered just bringing a cooler full of Olde English 400 the next time to save everybody time and trouble.
I -used- to be a operations analyst for an LTL trucking company, and spent a LOT of time in truck terminals all over the northeastern US. Trucking companies are not known for being selective about their surroundings - and I could tell you horror stories about working at night in places like Camden and Hoboken NJ, Brooklyn, Detroit, and Washington DC. Our Detroit terminal was so bad that we had two lines of 12' chain link fence with armed K9 units patrolling the space between. With trailerloads of valuable goods (clothing, electronics, appliances, etc.) all over the place, we attracted the professionals - there was more than one occasion when I feared for my life.
This happened over 20 years ago, but one late summer morning, I was down in Long Beach, CA. checking things out at SP's Dolores Yard, and decided to head further down the road that parallels the yard. After viewing a huge refinery or two, and some shipping container storage yards, I passed under a bridge with lettering saying something like, "You are now entering the Harbor District." No worries just yet, as the same industrial landscape I'd been watching continued to unfold before me. It wasn't until the road I was on dead ended (or so it seemed) in a rundown neighborhood consisting of old buildings from the middle of the 20th century, and a number of derelict people either staggering around, or passed out on the ground that I began to worry. First chance I got, I turned my mom's 1973 Chevy Malibu Super Sport around and beat a hasty retreat back to Dolores Yard.
UP's North Salt Lake Yard is in a marginal neighborhood, but the residents in the area mostly keep to themselves. I've never had any trouble down there, but if I get one of those gut feelings that now's not a good time to visit the yard, I'll try again some other time.
Railroaders often work on the "wrong side of the tracks" and the dirty little secret is that almost to a man they carry a pocket knife and a lot of the old heads pack firearms, rules be ignored.
Former SP crews (now UP) operating out of Dolores (near Los Angeles and Long Beach Harbors) had to enter the Pacific Harbor Line (former Harbor Belt Line) daily. Prior to the construction of the Alameda Corridor, there was a really bad area adjacent to the old Shell refinery (between CP Farragut and Badger Bridge) that the local cops referred to as the "Third World."
The inhabitants were the living dead, homeless crack addicts of the worst sort. Stabbings and robberies were common. The cops wouldn't go in with less than six units for safety in numbers. So what would the rails do when there was work? Line switches!
The junior trainman on the crew got sent out to line the switch when it was relatively clear. On one occasion, I saw an engineer actually hold a 9mm pistol out the window to cover the brakeman performing his duties.
Train crews were relatively safe during daylight, but at night they were instructed that if they were on the ground and heard any strange noise behind them to swing around with their lantern as hard as they could, then run. Fortunately, that area got demolished but it is still rough on the waterfront real estate.
North of Dolores is the garden spot of Watts, ground zero for the two best riots in LA history. When a train goes into emergency in that neighborhood, rails stay on the head end until the railroad police show up to escort the conductor to the problem, day or night. The locals get very hostile when their street crossings get blocked.
Ive probably been into enough dangerous neighborhoods around the USA getting into and out of the markets that I am very happy to see nothing but birds and crickets where I am when I railfan.
Ive seen the very worst and also the very best of different peoples around the USA.
To me, it's not worth going into bad areas just for a few images. Not worth your life. Especially when that photo or video equiptment can get the vultures another few days of drugs or booze.
Also alot of the activity that was present when I was growing up has literally been buried in new condos, developments and other projects and ceased to exist.
One of the busiest spots for rail traffic in the Western U.S. has to be Colton, Calif., where the UP Sunset Route crosses the BNSF Transcon main (with plenty of Overland Route-bound UP trains thrown in). Not the worst I've ever seen, but I don't feel like hanging around there alone.
Not really a railfanning spot anyway, but San Bernardino's Duffy St. neighborhood (where the gigantic SP derailment occured in the 1980s and some homesites remain un-rebuilt) is an interesting place for a look-see, but I don't even stop the car.
Threre really isnt a bad part here. Nthe North side of the tracks east of M street is about as bad as it gets... And that is manly Those unlawful visitors that seem to pop up, and lots of drugs. But I dont fan that area at all, so I really don't have an issue....
We weren't fanning, but there was one time in the travels that I had with my dad while he was still a Square Dance Caller, We had to go through East Denver.... Not a big fan of that place... Good thing we had the .44 mag(exactly like Dirty Harry's) under the seat, and the CWP in the pocket just in case.
RJ
"Something hidden, Go and find it. Go and look behind the ranges, Something lost behind the ranges. Lost and waiting for you. Go." The Explorers - Rudyard Kipling
http://sweetwater-photography.com/
The old 16th Street SP station in Oakland. On a 14 day Amtrak pass, a high school friend and I had a layover between the Coast Starlightand the California Zephyr. We didn't want to hang around the station for hours and there wasn't a cab to be found so we went out to catch a city bus. How we found the schedule I don't recall, but we were waiting out at the bus stop and didn't know the fare. There was only one person to ask-on obviously derelict old man. But there was no on else and it was right in front of the station, in broad daylight so we drew straws (so to speak) and Brad came up short. So, with me watching for trouble, he went up and asked the guy about the bus fare, expecting the only reply to be the guy belching and throwing up a couple gallons of Ripple. Instead a very polite, apparantly well educated (and completely sober) gentleman told us the bus fare, the best connections to get across the Bay and an approximate transit time so we knew how late to stay in the city before we had to start back.
Learned then to not judge books by their covers so much.
toledo and fostoria have some bad spots on the way to look at trains.one time 5 cop cars pulled up to a house in fostoria and matt asked what was going on.i just said that the man was bad and hes going to timeout.
stay safe
joe
Deshler Ohio-crossroads of the B&O Matt eats your fries.YUM! Clinton st viaduct undefeated against too tall trucks!!!(voted to be called the "Clinton St. can opener").
Soo 6604 wrote: There was one trip to Chicago where we took a wrong turn and ended up in a very bad neighborhood. We ended up getting pulled over and the cop asked what we were doing in this part of town. Told him that we took a wrong turn and was trying to find our way out. He ended up giving us a police escort to a better place. All i remember was that there was abandoned cars with not much on them, steel bars on all the windowd, graffitti everywhere and the ElAnother time was in Kansas City. We just knew we were in a bad neighborhood where the police station even had steel bars on the windows and door along with a church.Paul
Sounds like the scene from National Lampoon's Vacation movie.
Ham Radio wrote: Railroaders often work on the "wrong side of the tracks" and the dirty little secret is that almost to a man they carry a pocket knife and a lot of the old heads pack firearms, rules be ignored....North of Dolores is the garden spot of Watts, ground zero for the two best riots in LA history. When a train goes into emergency in that neighborhood, rails stay on the head end until the railroad police show up to escort the conductor to the problem, day or night. The locals get very hostile when their street crossings get blocked.
Railroaders often work on the "wrong side of the tracks" and the dirty little secret is that almost to a man they carry a pocket knife and a lot of the old heads pack firearms, rules be ignored....North of Dolores is the garden spot of Watts, ground zero for the two best riots in LA history. When a train goes into emergency in that neighborhood, rails stay on the head end until the railroad police show up to escort the conductor to the problem, day or night. The locals get very hostile when their street crossings get blocked.
Same operating procedures were in effect back (in the 70s & 80s) when freights departed and arrived at the 40th Street yards on Chicago's near west side (Pulaski Road).
I have railfanned many a questionable neighborhood in my day and I will say you have to be very alert, very aware and very quick. Unless you are with a group, you don't walk into these areas and hang out. You come in, get your shots, and leave.
That being said, I have only had one railfanning experience where I was in real jeopardy... and that was in one of the safest towns in America. Over 30 years ago - a friend and I biked down to the River Edge, NJ depot and rode our bikes all the way to the northern end of the platform to wait and see if the local freight came through. Well, on the northern end of the platform you are essentially on a shelf with a hill behind you that is too steep to climb, the tracks in front of you, and then another hill beyond them that is fairly steep itself.
Two large guys spot us, pick up large tree branches, and start walking towards us. We knew we were in trouble, and didn't know what to do. Finally, we both threw our bikes down the hill and jumped, rolling into the gravel. We got on our bikes, ignored our scrapes and bruises, and rode away through the parking lot. As we passed the closest we would get to the guys with the sticks, they threw them at us.
Point being... you have to be careful everywhere you go. There are knuckleheads and jerks to be found all over.
Certainly most RR tracks are in the older part of town and things might not be good. I like photographing different short lines, and if you go seeking the Chicago Short Line or the Chicago, West Pullman & Southern (both on Chicago's South Side), it isn't always the best place to be.
I used to have the advantage of being a police officer, and did carry a concealed weapon and "Badge Americard". Identifying myself as an off-duty police officer to folks in the yard office usually allowed me to stand safely out of everyone's way without anyone getting upset. I am now retired and those benefits are no longer maintained (after 30 years of urban policing, I've seen enough to know I don't want to carry a gun any more).
With that police experience, I would offer the following suggestions if one really wants to get some of those photos in grim areas:
Hope this helps, Bill
Beach Bill wrote: (snip...) Hope this helps, Bill
(snip...) Hope this helps, Bill
Really fantastic advice. Thanks for posting it. (The one about being in bad neighborhoods only very early is one I've always followed myself.)
I am also a lifelong resident of the Chicago area, and have been to several places a more reasonable person may not have (further proof that railfanning is a disease...). And i think Bill's advise is as good as it gets (you should sell it as a handbook...great stuff, right on the money). However, one thing that suprises me, and i may be sheltered i suppose, but i am suprised that there are so few "rail-fan clubs" with which to provide companionship and a bit of orginization to railfanning trips into the city. For myself, none of my friends are railfans, and my father has long sinse lost the desire to go out rail-fanning, so i am often on my own when i got out to these places and those that i run into are also alone, or with perhaps one other person.
Now i am not proposing gaudy tour bus arrangements or anything like that (that could worsen your situation, TARGET...) But a group to facilitate a way to "buddy up" and coordinate trips as well as promoting the hobby ingeneral. Have i missed the boat on this, or are there already this sort of thing taking place? I'd be interested to know.
Bottom line, i think that Bills advice about the "wild kingdom" senario is under-valued. Arm yourself with knowledge of the area, and a bit of confidence, the majority of trouble will pass you by for easier prey. Many of the crimes in these areas are crimes of opportunity. And lastly, and i dont wish to incite, but, dont be afraid of people who dont look like you, many of the areas in chicago deemed 'unsafe' by many of us are done so superficially without our full understanding of how certain inherent fear of those we dont 'understand' and may can play with our logic, even when we would like to think that we are color-blind and living Dr. Kings dream of understanding. And it plays both ways, i've met several people from these neighborhoods who fear comming out to where i live because of being seen as a target, not for crime, but as a target for un-due prosecution and harrassment from police... The struggle continues...
As for Chicago, I think that the everyone has covered the majority of not-so-good spots. I'd second the Blue Island/Dolton area as being one I'd be wary of, but if you go in the morning it isn't too bad. Of course I'm a hefty kinda guy so I hve a little bit of weight to throw around too. Just be cautious, and as Bill recommended travel with a buddy if you can!
Mike
Quentin, I do carry a tire pump (that's how I was able to keep going as long as I did!), and don't need wrenches to remove wheels or make adjustments on my bike (it takes about ten minutes for me from flat to back on the road with a new tube).
U33B, you just have to broaden your circle of friends--this Forum is a good place to start! It's so hard, with strange work schedules, etc., to organize a trip on a "club" basis. But if you wanted to ask the Forum about a trip somewhere on a given date, you might get a few "takers" who would be willing to meet somewhere. My most recent trip to Blue Island and Dolton was with CopCarSS and a cousin of his.
Yes...I was in beautiful Charleston, SC on business last year. I parked my rental car along side the NS tracks in what looked like a poor neighbourhood. Getting ready to do some train watching, I was approached by a rather unsavory looking character who asked me if I was buying or selling. Recognizing a potential problem I kicked him in the family jewels as hard as I could and took off running. That's when I knew I was set up...suddenly five or six loafers were hot on my tail, and I made it to my vehicle in the nick of time. Got out of there in a hurry...
But I have a question...those NS ties there in Charleston were made of metal...why?
**Opens a bag...
Here we go.
Several packs of menthol cigerettes, Several of regulars and one hundreds...
A few dollar bills and a stack of coins. (More later)
Clothes that are nuetral and not a gang color. Learn about Crips, bloods, Vice Lords, latin kings and MS13. Learn thier grafitti and stay clear of those turf areas.
When on foot, dont allow anyone to corner you, stay 6 feet distance and NEVER run in fear. Stand your ground. Display strength and clear mind. Be a lion. You might be very afraid inside your gut but as long as you are functioning (Dont let that voice shake...) you will be ok.
The encounter usually starts "You got a light? (Smoke? Dollar etc) Keep this material in a front pocket.
By the time that person approaches you; usually they have already evaluated you for attack or defense or other personal gain and made thier decision already how the encounter is going to play out... peacefully or with violence. YOU decide how it's going to go down by your actions, body language etc. Be a Lion. Lions are not prey and they are much harder targets than the weak ones.
Im sorry if this is rather rough and not polite or other high class consideration. That street or corner is just the same as the african jungle. You or them. Anything goes.
In really bad areas, the police will see you as a problem about to happen and frankly dont want it. One clue is they will be two to a crusier and have the 1300 deployed between them up front ready to use.
Take care of thier want and then walk off wishing them a good day but using your hand in a sort of a sweep with the palm out and half down making clear that you dont wish further converstation.
That is how some of these people trap you with converstation that suddenly deteriotes into several issues at once and try to confuse you. So My defense is no words, no problem.
While trucking I used to hire certain people who work that street to keep the rig clear of spray paint grafitti from the local artists for a while. Anyone getting on my catwalk between cab and trailer is considered hostile and I find a turn street and knock em off with a hard jack turn. I dont stop for directions, I dont ask directions and always have a alternate route out.
As far as I know I aint killed anyone or gotten too bad hurt. But certanily knives, meathooks and other implements are involved from time to time.
Oh the coins? They get smashed into the face of the attacker as a opening move to fight. Usually the others will stop for a second to gather up the half dollars. They cannot resist it and give you an opening to finish the defense or get clear.
Ive gotten old, slow and unfit and that is a very good reason to stay out of bad areas these days. The younger ones are quite quicksilver of mind, nerves and lethal in attack on that street. All the wonderful creations of laws, morals or other human considerations are absolutely worthless at that time.
Having said this, I must tell to you that there live people who are good and are sort of Angels or defenders in certian neighborhoods, even in the worst of places you may find a few who will in thier own way take care of you so you can just leave quickly and not bother that area no more. Because you are considered a target, liability and a problem that disrupts the normal flow in the night or day.
The best people I have seen are those who are working in the day time or on the market dock at night earning a wage for living. Those are the ones you want to be around as long there is no problem.
Jail is quite the training ground and usually they come out of that jail hardened further and better and go down to the markets sometimes to start up from the bottom and working up if they want a place of their own and a family. The rest are simply there until they get rearrested and back to jail.
The rest are lost and will not enjoy a good position off that street. They will die there at some point from one of the common infections, STD's drugs etc.
If you have a city block full of homes, complete family units with mom and pop along with a good coordinated network in all the homes. Generally it will be difficult for the bad elements to move in. But as these people die off, move out or otherwise cease to care about their "Block" the bad elements move in and take hold just like a weed.
Eventually only those without money, car or any resources are trapped there to be preyed on by the weeds. Then it is all used up and the weeds take over the next block and so on.
techguy57 wrote: I'd second the Blue Island/Dolton area as being one I'd be wary of Mike
I'd second the Blue Island/Dolton area as being one I'd be wary of
Dolton and Blue Island, while gritty and blue collar in nature, are truley not bad neighborhoods. All of the aforementioned guidelines definatly apply here, but they are not too rough. Englewood, and portions of East Chicago and perhaps sections of Dearing would be best to avoid though.
~Kevin
garyla wrote: One of the busiest spots for rail traffic in the Western U.S. has to be Colton, Calif., where the UP Sunset Route crosses the BNSF Transcon main (with plenty of Overland Route-bound UP trains thrown in). Not the worst I've ever seen, but I don't feel like hanging around there alone. Not really a railfanning spot anyway, but San Bernardino's Duffy St. neighborhood (where the gigantic SP derailment occured in the 1980s and some homesites remain un-rebuilt) is an interesting place for a look-see, but I don't even stop the car.
Hi Gary,
The Duffy Street locale is in a neighborhood known locally as Muscoy. You are wise not stopping as this has traditionally always been a rough neighborhood.
Better to trainspot a little further up the grade towards CP Dike (the wash area) or more towards Cajon. Devore Road near Glen Helen Regional Park is a good spot for main line action with easy access from either I-15 or I-215.
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