My additonal comment about the Indian Detours should have been put on the Classic Trains Forum. This misplacing comes from looking at too many forums close together and forgetting what was said on each one.
Johnny
Deggesty Thanks, Texas Zepher. Let's go back east and back a few (100 or more) years--how did the B&O participate in a Washington-New Orleans sleeper that did not go through Cincinnati; name roads and junction points (I won't ask for train names)? If you have studied one of the reprinted Official Guides you may remember this. Johnny
Thanks, Texas Zepher. Let's go back east and back a few (100 or more) years--how did the B&O participate in a Washington-New Orleans sleeper that did not go through Cincinnati; name roads and junction points (I won't ask for train names)? If you have studied one of the reprinted Official Guides you may remember this.
I'll take a WAG at this one. Thank you for not asking for train names. I'm pretty ancient but even I wasn't around 100 years ago.
B&O Washington - Charleston,WV
C&O Charleston - Louisville
L&N Louisville - New Orleans
Mark
Your WAG sounds good to me, but B&O didn't serve Charleston. Substitute Huntington for Charleston, and you may have it. Or perhaps Kenova.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
CShaveRR Your WAG sounds good to me, but B&O didn't serve Charleston. Substitute Huntington for Charleston, and you may have it. Or perhaps Kenova.
Mark, you have the right direction out of Washington, but you go too far before going south. When I first saw this route listed, I at first wondered about where the car left the B&O, and then I saw that the junction really exists. Considering some of the old-time sleeper routes and how they wove back and forth, your WAG could have been tried at one time--but it's not the one I have in mind.
Carl,
My eyesight ain't what it once was so I had to go back and check an old OG and it does show a B&O line coming off the main at Grafton and running to Charleston. In the mid 1950's there was still local passenger service (I wouldn't be surprised if it only a doodlebug) that ran on this line from Grafton as far as Burnsville Jct. but only freight service from there to Charleston. I agree that both Kenova and Huntington are other good possibilities if in fact a part of this through Pullman's route was over the C&O.
Johnny,
Here's another WAG that I've come up with based on your last hint that it turned south before reaching Grafton. I can't begin to think of a logical reason for the inprobable route I describe but who knows what the rationale might have been back in the early 20th century.
B&O Washington - Shenandoah Jct.
N&W Shenandoah Jct. - Bristol
Southern Bristol - New Orleans
KCSfan Johnny, Here's another WAG that I've come up with based on your last hint that it turned south before reaching Grafton. I can't begin to think of a logical reason for the inprobable route I describe but who knows what the rationale might have been back in the early 20th century. B&O Washington - Shenandoah Jct. N&W Shenandoah Jct. - Bristol Southern Bristol - New Orleans Mark
You should see some of the routings of through sleepers to Chicago for the 1893 exposition there.
It's your question.
Thank you, Mark and Johnny--I'll sit corrected. I didn't know--or didn't remember--that the B&O went to Charleston.
Deggesty KCSfan Johnny, Here's another WAG that I've come up with based on your last hint that it turned south before reaching Grafton. I can't begin to think of a logical reason for the inprobable route I describe but who knows what the rationale might have been back in the early 20th century. B&O Washington - Shenandoah Jct. N&W Shenandoah Jct. - Bristol Southern Bristol - New Orleans Mark Mark, you took the right left turn! I found this in the reprint of the June, 1893, Official Railway Guide. Here is something interesting: I did not get an email note of your answer, but I did get a note from Martin, received at 9:59 (MT) last night (and read this morning). Martin would have the car turn left at Harpers Ferry, and then right at Ranson, just east of Charles Town, and left onto the N&W at Belt Junction, which is just above Charles Town (he named Charles Town as the junction). This would have required an additional train on the B&O. Martin tried. No, I do not have all these junctions memorized; I looked Martin's up in SPV's Appalachia and Piedmont Atlas. I had not even thought about N&W's going through Charles Town. You should see some of the routings of through sleepers to Chicago for the 1893 exposition there. It's your question. Johnny
Deggesty Mark, I do not know why I quoted Martin for the WAG with Charles Town as the junction, when it was your email note that came through, and your correct guess came to my email at 10:04 this morning. Incidentally, what became of your posting with Charles Town as the junction? Did you pull it? Was it edited out (I found nothing offensive in it)? Johnny
Mark, I do not know why I quoted Martin for the WAG with Charles Town as the junction, when it was your email note that came through, and your correct guess came to my email at 10:04 this morning. Incidentally, what became of your posting with Charles Town as the junction? Did you pull it? Was it edited out (I found nothing offensive in it)?
After posting my reply I realized that Shenandoah Jct (on the main line) was a more logical place than Charles Town (on a branch line) for the handoff between the B&O and the N&W. Once this dawned on me I went back and edited the earlier reply changing Charles Town to Shenandoah Jct.
Next question. Gas electric doodlebugs were most often found in passenger service on relatively short branch line runs. However around 1950 there were two railroads (and only two) that had long doodlebug runs which terminated in Chicagoland. Name the two railroads and the routes of these doodlebug runs.
KCSfanGas electric doodlebugs were most often found in passenger service on relatively short branch line runs. However around 1950 there were two railroads (and only two) that had long doodlebug runs which terminated in Chicagoland.
One of the roads which had doodlebugs in Chicagoland ws the Santa Fe, which had two with termini in Illinois. One terminus was Streator; I do not recall the other terminii.
Back to Shenandoah Junction--my memory was faulty when I wrote of a Washington-New Orleans sleeper; it was a Washington-Memphis sleeper that the B&O handled between Washington and Shenandoah Junction. My point was that this obscure (to most railfans) junction was used in passenger service 115 years ago. I could have asked for the operating names of the roads south and west of Bristol--the Southern Railway did not exist in 1893, but the roads that became the Southern system did. From Bristol to Chattanooga, the East Tennessee, Virginia and Georgia handled the car, and the Memphis and Charleston division of the ETV&G took the car on to Memphis. The AGS and NO&NE ran down to New Orleans from Chattanooga, and they were listed as part of the Queen and Crescent--which was then a part of the ETV&G. Also, at that time, the A&V and VS&P were parts of the Q&C, along with the CNO&TP.
DeggestyI do not recall the other terminii.
Good call guys. When I posted this question I had forgotten about the Santa Fe having a gas electric running out of Chicago. This doodlebug ran as SF No. 13 leaving Chi at 11:35 pm and arrriving in Pekin at 6:20 am. Streator was an intermediate stop. It covered the 153 miles in 6 hrs 45 min giving it an average speed of 22.7 mph. I dare say very few persons were hardy enough to ride all night for the entire distance. It was a little speedier running east as No.14 leaving Pekin at 7:00 am and arriving back in Chicago just after Noon. In the same time period the RI's Peoria Rocket was making two daily round trips to Pekin's sister city over a slightly longer route (161 miles) in 2 hrs 35 min.
Have another try at naming the other two doodlebugs which were the ones I had in mind when I posed this question.
KCSfan Good call guys. When I posted this question I had forgotten about the Santa Fe having a gas electric running out of Chicago. This doodlebug ran as SF No. 13 leaving Chi at 11:35 pm and arrriving in Pekin at 6:20 am. Streator was an intermediate stop. It covered the 153 miles in 6 hrs 45 min giving it an average speed of 22.7 mph. I dare say very few persons were hardy enough to ride all night for the entire distance. It was a little speedier running east as No.14 leaving Pekin at 7:00 am and arriving back in Chicago just after Noon. In the same time period the RI's Peoria Rocket was making two daily round trips to Pekin's sister city over a slightly longer route (161 miles) in 2 hrs 35 min. Have another try at naming the other two doodlebugs which were the ones I had in mind when I posed this question. Mark
What are the limits to Chicagoland?
Deggesty KCSfan Good call guys. When I posted this question I had forgotten about the Santa Fe having a gas electric running out of Chicago. This doodlebug ran as SF No. 13 leaving Chi at 11:35 pm and arrriving in Pekin at 6:20 am. Streator was an intermediate stop. It covered the 153 miles in 6 hrs 45 min giving it an average speed of 22.7 mph. I dare say very few persons were hardy enough to ride all night for the entire distance. It was a little speedier running east as No.14 leaving Pekin at 7:00 am and arriving back in Chicago just after Noon. In the same time period the RI's Peoria Rocket was making two daily round trips to Pekin's sister city over a slightly longer route (161 miles) in 2 hrs 35 min. Have another try at naming the other two doodlebugs which were the ones I had in mind when I posed this question. Mark When I started collecting passenger timetables in 1951, the train to Pekin ran only from Streator, as I recall, and it was a daytime trip. What are the limits to Chicagoland? Johnny
For purposes of this question let's say "Chicagoland" is no further than 30 miles from the Loop even though that doesn't begn to include all of the suburbs.
Mar
KCSfanHave another try at naming the other two doodlebugs which were the ones I had in mind when I posed this question.
I have no idea of names or schedules, but I'll venture a guess as to the railroads involved: C&EI and GM&O.
Not the CNW, C&EI or GM&O. Unless one of these had a doodlebug run that I overlooked like I did the one on the Santa Fe. Regarding the two roads I have in mind, I'd label one a granger road and the other a coal hauler.
KCSfan Not the CNW, C&EI or GM&O. Unless one of these had a doodlebug run that I overlooked like I did the one on the Santa Fe. Regarding the two roads I have in mind, I'd label one a granger road and the other a coal hauler. Mark
Was one of them the Chicago Great Western? - a.s.
You've got one of them Al. The CGW's doodlebug ran between Chicago and Oelwein, IA a distance of 246 miles. Think about my last hint and the other one ought to be easy.
Coal road--but probably not to the coal fields. Did IC run one out west?
If I find out that C&O used a doodlebug to Hammond from the southeast, I'm going to be totally embarrassed!
CShaveRR Coal road--but probably not to the coal fields. Did IC run one out west? If I find out that C&O used a doodlebug to Hammond from the southeast, I'm going to be totally embarrassed!
No need to be embarrassed Carl, but the other one I was looking for was the C&O's gas electric doodlebug run between Cincy and Hammond.
I guess Al should ask the next question since he got the CGW right.
Oh, if you know about one of my past lives, you'd know why I'm embarrassed! I'd always pictured C&O's passenger runs on this line as being steam-powered. Couldn't have been a doodlebug for very long before they were ended completely.
By all means, let Al have the next question!
Okay, how about an easy one: Who was Chessie's "Old Man" and what kind of life did they have? - a.s.
I know...but I'll give someone else the chance at this one.
I haven't a clue so I'll just throw out Robert R. Young and say he had a great life promoting coast to coast through passenger travel. I rember the slogan, "A hog can cross the country without changing trains ".
His name was Peke,and he was in the Army.
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