Mark,
I remember that at King St. Station Seattle when boarding the Empire Builder the Pullman Conductor checked all passengers with Pullman space in while the Passenger Service Representative did the same for Coach passengers although he did not collect the actual tickets as the Pullman Conductor did this once the train was underway. The Conductor on the train actually collected the coach passenger tickets and he was usually accompanied by the Passenger Service Representative. The first coach in each Empire Builder was designated for short haul passengers and the others were for those traveling greater distances. This did not seem to matter with the Pullman space as all Pullmans either went through to Chicago or some to St. Paul in later years. The Station agent at Seattle was the one who closed the gates and turned out the lights as the train left. I am assuming that these duties were performed by the IC Passenger Service Representative who performed more of a Station Agent function.
Al - in - Stockton
passengerfan wrote: Mark, I remember that at King St. Station Seattle when boarding the Empire Builder the Pullman Conductor checked all passengers with Pullman space in while the Passenger Service Representative did the same for Coach passengers although he did not collect the actual tickets as the Pullman Conductor did this once the train was underway. The Conductor on the train actually collected the coach passenger tickets and he was usually accompanied by the Passenger Service Representative. The first coach in each Empire Builder was designated for short haul passengers and the others were for those traveling greater distances. This did not seem to matter with the Pullman space as all Pullmans either went through to Chicago or some to St. Paul in later years. The Station agent at Seattle was the one who closed the gates and turned out the lights as the train left. I am assuming that these duties were performed by the IC Passenger Service Representative who performed more of a Station Agent function. Al - in - Stockton
Sorry Al but you're just barely lukewarm. One final hint before I go to bed. It was a regional thing based on de jure.
Mark
Looks like another hint is in order. Think of the region of the country that the IC mainline trains ran to from Chicago and the events of the early to mid 1960's.
From the hints, the duty was sorting the passengers out by race, but I don't have an idea precisely how that was done -- were there seperate seating areas within each car or seperate cars altogether? If more than one race was included in the same car, was there a "hard" divider or sort of an adjustable border line depending on the mix of passengers boarding?
I think I need help from someone who actually rode trains in the South back in those days.
Dakguy201 wrote: From the hints, the duty was sorting the passengers out by race, but I don't have an idea precisely how that was done -- were there seperate seating areas within each car or seperate cars altogether? If more than one race was included in the same car, was there a "hard" divider or sort of an adjustable border line depending on the mix of passengers boarding?I think I need help from someone who actually rode trains in the South back in those days.
Bingo we have a winner. Up until de jure segregation ended in the 1960's coach passengers on the IC trains that were headed to points below the Mason Dixon line were segregated by race at Central Station in Chicago. Prior to boarding they would be asked what their destination was and if it was south of Cairo, IL black passengers would be directed by the Passenger Service Reps to the coaches designated for their use at the front end of the train and non-blacks to the coaches further to the rear that would become strictly for whites only once the train crossed the Ohio River and entered Kentucky. Blacks could legally sit in any of the coaches they wanted to while the train was still in Illinois but nontheless were "encouraged" to ride in the front coaches. IC trains were the only ones that were segregated by race upon leaving Chicago and it was this added duty that distinguished the IC reps from their counterparts on the other roads serving the Windy City.
Mark, Even the Santa Fe had Jim Crow (segregated) coaches that operated in the Texas Chiefs and passengers of color travelling south of Kansas were separated at Chicago. It was the same for the PRR Southwind and FEC Dixie Flagler. The same would have been true for IC passengers originating in St. Louis travelling south of the Ohio River. Even the SP Sunset operated with Jim Crow coaches and the seating was enforced east of El Paso.
passengerfan wrote: Mark, Even the Santa Fe had Jim Crow (segregated) coaches that operated in the Texas Chiefs and passengers of color travelling south of Kansas were separated at Chicago. It was the same for the PRR Southwind and FEC Dixie Flagler. The same would have been true for IC passengers originating in St. Louis travelling south of the Ohio River. Even the SP Sunset operated with Jim Crow coaches and the seating was enforced east of El Paso. Al - in - Stockton
G'morning Al,
That's interesting, I was not aware the Texas Chief was segregated out of Chicago. I'm pretty sure you're wrong about the Southwind which I rode several times in the late 40's or early 50's. On one trip I had a young black girl who was going to Thomasville, GA as my seatmate out of Chicago. After lunch I headed for the obsv/lounge and by the time I returned to my coach seat we were somewhere in Kentucky and I had a new (white) seatmate. I always presumed she had been asked to change cars at Louisville. I can't speak from first hand knowledge about the Flager. While I rode it once during my teens to Atlanta and returned to Chicago on the Georgian, I have only a vague recollection of that trip. If the C&EI did segregate at Chicago I am confident they would have done so for all the Dixie trains and also the Georgian.
There were a number of roads in addition to the IC that segregated at least some of their trains out of St. Louis: The L&N, Cotton Belt, GM&O and Frisco for sure and maybe the MoPac as well.
Dakguy201 wrote:About 1878, a group lead by James Hill acquired control of a railroad that would become the Great Northern. What was the name of that railroad and where did it run? What was the nationality of the bondholders from whom it was acquired?
the Railroad was the St. Paul & Pacific
ran from St Paul to Pembina ND upon which Hill renamed it the St. Paul Minneapolis & Manitoba
Donald Smith of The Hudson Bay Co. and others from both England and Canada were majority share and bond holders
Actually, I think the day Hill and his associates acquired it, the road was only servicable as far northwest as Crookston MN, and they had to finish the portion north to the Canadian line. But that's picky, so your answer is correct.
I am always amused by all of the railroads that had "Pacific" in their title. In this case they weren't even pointed in the right direction to achieve that.
what city in Wyoming was named for a famous Chief Locating Engineer(surveyor) on the CB&Q who was personally responsible for surveying almost 2000 miles of CB&Q route miles in the 1880's
p.s.
Hill taking over the St.P&P,completion to Pembria, and renaming to St.PM&M all happened the same year 1878...for those picking nits
Dakguy201 wrote: I am always amused by all of the railroads that had "Pacific" in their title. In this case they weren't even pointed in the right direction to achieve that.
the State Charters of Railroads of both RR's built or planned in the 1830's to the 1860's show the undaunted imagination of the builders of that time....the Poedunk Hogwartz & Pacific may have had only 7 miles of track but in 1839 they had dreams. Sometimes the only way promoters of lines of that time could sell stock subscriptions was to "sell" the dream of a transportation empire covering the land and so they added "& Pacific" or "& Western" to names that in reality never did nor were ever going to fullfill their corporate titles
'
If it wasn't Sheridan how about Laramie?
Dakguy,
Sorry I or someone else didn't answer your questions sooner. Until the end of segregation in the 1960's the trains in the south had separate coaches for black passengers which would be located just behind any head end baggage/mail/express cars. These would be followed by the coaches for whites. On short, local trains the car for blacks was often a baggage/mail/ express/coach combine followed by a full coach for whites. Dining cars were also segregated with the seating area for blacks located next to the galley and separated by a partition from the rest of the diner which would be for whites only. The dining area for blacks was the smaller of the two and usually consisted of only two tables, one located on each side of the center aisle. Most black passengers brown bagged it and ate at their coach seat and only the more affluent ones patronized the diner. The many trains I personally rode at the time never had a lounge car for blacks. Any lounge and observation cars were for white passengers and were located amid or to the rear of the white coaches. I can't recall specifically but an exception may have been made for the few black Pullman passengers who I think were allowed in the lounges and club cars. I traveled mostly by coach in those days so I lack first hand knowledge of the practices of the Pullman Company however I don't think the sleepers were segregated. I'm just guessing but the thinking probably was that the few blacks (in the south at least) that could afford a Pullman were "high class" enough to ride with white passengers. Perhaps someone with more first hand knowledge that I have about Pullman travel during the time of de jure segregation will add something on this subject.
KCSfan wrote: Dakguy201 wrote: From the hints, the duty was sorting the passengers out by race, but I don't have an idea precisely how that was done -- were there seperate seating areas within each car or seperate cars altogether? If more than one race was included in the same car, was there a "hard" divider or sort of an adjustable border line depending on the mix of passengers boarding?I think I need help from someone who actually rode trains in the South back in those days. Dakguy,Sorry I or someone else didn't answer your questions sooner. Until the end of segregation in the 1960's the trains in the south had separate coaches for black passengers which would be located just behind any head end baggage/mail/express cars. These would be followed by the coaches for whites. On short, local trains the car for blacks was often a baggage/mail/ express/coach combine followed by a full coach for whites. Dining cars were also segregated with the seating area for blacks located next to the galley and separated by a partition from the rest of the diner which would be for whites only. The dining area for blacks was the smaller of the two and usually consisted of only two tables, one located on each side of the center aisle. Most black passengers brown bagged it and ate at their coach seat and only the more affluent ones patronized the diner. The many trains I personally rode at the time never had a lounge car for blacks. Any lounge and observation cars were for white passengers and were located amid or to the rear of the white coaches. I can't recall specifically but an exception may have been made for the few black Pullman passengers who I think were allowed in the lounges and club cars. I traveled mostly by coach in those days so I lack first hand knowledge of the practices of the Pullman Company however I don't think the sleepers were segregated. I'm just guessing but the thinking probably was that the few blacks (in the south at least) that could afford a Pullman were "high class" enough to ride with white passengers. Perhaps someone with more first hand knowledge that I have about Pullman travel during the time of de jure segregation will add something on this subject.Mark
My one personal experience riding Pullman in the south was on the Sunset Limited to New Orleans. There were at least two Black couples in Bedrooms on the sleeper ahead of mine and their porter brought the meals to there room from the diner. I never saw anyone in the lounge that was of color the entire trip. The return trip was on the overnight MP/T&P Louisiana Eagle to Fort Worth and there were no Blacks in the dining Lounge or in the sleepers. We then boarded the Texas Zephyr to Denver and again no Blacks in the sleeper, Diner or Lounge. It was UP from there to Portland and the dining lounge was mixed once again.
On the SP they had a divided coach at the front and it had a glass partion separating the two with a door. The bathrooms were also segregated from one another with each section of the divided coach having women and men's bathrooms. For someone from the north the trip was a real eye opener. I was really shocked. I remember my uncle living in a suburb of New Orleans at the time pulling into a gas station and that was when the service stations pumped the gas , washed your windows and checked your water and oil. The station had four bathrooms two for whites and two for blacks, separate drinking fountains. A white attendant came to the car and asked if a black attendant could do the windows, check under the hood and checked the air in the tires. It was something I was glad to see finally vanish and it did. If I had not personally witnessed this I would never have believed things like this could happen in this country.
KCSfan wrote: If it wasn't Sheridan how about Laramie?Mark
Laramie isnt on the CB&Q.....Sheridan isnt the answer
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Would it be Gillette.
J. Edgar wrote:short of giving it away...think razor.
Shaver?
Only in my dreams!
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
passengerfan wrote: Would it be Gillette.Al - in - Stockton
Well, Al, I guess the next question is yours!
Please give me an hour I have to watch the History Channel Special on the ARR in a few minutes and that will give me some time to think about the next question.
There were three passenger trainsets built by a foreign country in the 1950s for a North American Railroad that were never successful until there trucks were exchanged for American built trucks. Name the Railroad, Manufacturer, Country of Manufacture, and name of the trains?
passengerfan wrote: There were three passenger trainsets built by a foreign country in the 1950s for a North American Railroad that were never successful until there trucks were exchanged for American built trucks. Name the Railroad, Manufacturer, Country of Manufacture, and name of the trains?Al - in - Stockton
Does "foreign country" apply to Canada? - a.s.
Si!
I didn't mean to mislead anyone but Canada is a foreign country but the trains did not come from Canada.
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