J. Edgar wrote:1947....six major Stations in Chicago...name all 6 and at least 2 RR per station
Trick question? The CNW Terminal, now only a trainshed under a skyscraper, never originated other then CNW trains -- commuter and passenger -- that I know of. But it was, pre 1955, the terminus for some UP "City of" type trains that were CNW's West (Elmhurst/Proviso) on to Omaha where UP took over IIRC. IOW in 1947, CNW-UP routing for City of Los Angeles from Chgo to L.A. (duh)--1947 being pre-1955.
I.C. Electric - IC and CSS&SB electric commuter. Still true today except IC is "Metra-Electric."
But Illinois Central had its own Central Station for intercity "steam" (later diesel) line. It is long gone, covered with condos. Roughly 22nd Street South and Michigan Blvd. (or Ave.)
I don't know anything about LaSalle other than CRI&P, sure there must have been others. The station itself wasn't torn down until the mid-1980s. There's a trading board about where the station used to be, tracks and a very thin exposed trainshed are all that's left for Metra commuters, who use both exx-CRI&P lines to Joliet. One line stops local in the Beverley neighborhood of extreme southside Chicago, the other is a type of express track bypassing Beverley, the lines join each other shortly sout of there. Was GM&O once there too??
Dearborn Station - ATSF and others (PRR?) Service long gone with Amtrak (5/71) but building still stands and is used for "arty" events like book fairs.
"Grand" Central Station - NYC and others, also B&O(?) I'm not even sure where it was but it is long gone too.
And of course Union Station, all Milwaukee Road service, all CB&Q, others. Still there, but huge neoclassical waiting room is sadly underused while commuters and other than Amtrak first-class passengers have to put up with long walks and/or "gerbil tubes" to get underground, sit, stand or wait.
Ignorant by Chicago standards am I -- but perhaps more hits than misses?
you are correct on C&NW Station...hehehe trick part
Central station...IC yes and..?
Dearborn Station...ATSF yes and ?....(PRR is a no)
Grand Central....B&O yes....NYC no
LaSalle st.....CRI&P yes.....and?
Union Station...Correct....MILW and CB&Q...as well as the Alton and the PRR
al-in-chgo wrote: I.C. Electric - IC and CSS&SB electric commuter. Still true today except IC is "Metra-Electric." But Illinois Central had its own Central Station for intercity "steam" (later diesel) line. It is long gone, covered with condos. Roughly 22nd Street South and Michigan Blvd. (or Ave.)
And of course Union Station, all Milwaukee Road service, all CB&Q, others.
Wasn't Union Station used mostly by the PRR?
nanaimo73 wrote: al-in-chgo wrote: I.C. Electric - IC and CSS&SB electric commuter. Still true today except IC is "Metra-Electric." But Illinois Central had its own Central Station for intercity "steam" (later diesel) line. It is long gone, covered with condos. Roughly 22nd Street South and Michigan Blvd. (or Ave.)Well done, Al!I believe the first IC station you mention is called Randolph Street.IC's Central Station also hosted NYC's Big Four trains running south through Kankakee. Amtrak used it for the Riley and the South Wind. And of course Union Station, all Milwaukee Road service, all CB&Q, others.WAsn't Union Station used mostly by the PRR?
WAsn't Union Station used mostly by the PRR?
and correct on the Big Four at Central station...the Michigan Central (Trains off the NYC Michigan lines after 1914) also used this at the time in question (1947)
so thats IC station and Union Station
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
J. Edgar wrote: you are correct on C&NW Station...hehehe trick partCentral station...IC yes and..?Dearborn Station...ATSF yes and ?....(PRR is a no)Grand Central....B&O yes....NYC noLaSalle st.....CRI&P yes.....and?Union Station...Correct....MILW and CB&Q...as well as the Alton and the PRR
(I.C. Electric) I agree with nanaimo -- "Randolph Street" was coin of the realm, at least before Metra. Since that's where it is, it may still stick today.
(I.C. steam line) Central Station - not a clue except for Big Four conveyance listed below. Certain NYC for example.
OK, I got the "trick" portion right on CNW
Dearborn: ATSF and Pere Marquette? Not sure because wasn't 1947 the year Chessie bought the Pere Marquette??
Grand Central: B&O and C&O (not the same company; they didn't amalgamate 'til 1963)
La Salle: CRI&P and Monon??
Union Station: I was OK. MILW, CB&Q (also PRR).
CShaveRR wrote:Sorry, all of you--the North Western Station did have a couple of other railroads originating and terminating trains at it. During 1969 through Amtrak Day in 1971, C&O and B&O trains into Chicago used the North Western station, after Grand Central was closed.
.....knowledge accepted....but....i specified 1947 has my question year...Amtrak day is a lil after 1947....i think..
al-in-chgo wrote: J. Edgar wrote: you are correct on C&NW Station...hehehe trick partCentral station...IC yes and..?Dearborn Station...ATSF yes and ?....(PRR is a no)Grand Central....B&O yes....NYC noLaSalle st.....CRI&P yes.....and?Union Station...Correct....MILW and CB&Q...as well as the Alton and the PRR(I.C. Electric) I agree with nanaimo -- "Randolph Street" was coin of the realm, at least before Metra. Since that's where it is, it may still stick today. (I.C. steam line) Central Station - not a clue except for Big Four conveyance listed below. Certain NYC for example. OK, I got the "trick" portion right on CNWDearborn: ATSF and Pere Marquette? Not sure because wasn't 1947 the year Chessie bought the Pere Marquette?? Grand Central: B&O and C&O (not the same company; they didn't amalgamate 'til 1963) La Salle: CRI&P and Monon??Union Station: I was OK. MILW, CB&Q (also PRR).
Pere Marquette did not use Dearborn but ATSF did so your half there...
Grand Central is correct...along with CGW Soo PM...
LaSalle...Rock Island yes...MONON no...so we need 1 more line for Dearborn and and 1 for LaSalle
OK: 1947:
North Western Station: CNW
Central: IC, NYC (Big Four, and possibly MC--can't remember when they changed over)
Dearborn: ATSF, GTW, Erie, Wabash, Monon, C&EI
Grand Central: B&O, PM (or C&O--depends on which part of 1947), CGW, Soo Line (technically Wisconsin Central)
LaSalle Street: NYC (most of it), RI, NKP
Union: PRR, CB&Q, MILW, Alton
Well, I guess I earned about half a brownie point for exposing the "trick" element in the question.
This one's for all you Transit fans.
In 1979, the MTA issued a "Diamond Jubilee" poster for the New York subway system's 75th anniversary, 1904-1979.
Other than the title, which runs sideways, the bulk of the composition is made up of a vertical stack of eleven subway car sketches (non-schematic) for what the MTA considered the major technical advances in new generations of acqusition. Above each car is listed the name of the series and the manufacturer. To the left of each drawing is the year of introduction of that car.
Okay, the dates of car aquisition alongside each car's drawing are as follows [this is important]:
1904
1914
1916
1932
1938
1948
1950
1963
1964
1968
1975 (last one).
Okay, some questions:
(1) Name the year of car from the above list that was the first assigned to the IND division.
(2) The generation called redbirds and only fairly recently retired (to make artificial reefs in the Atlantic) did not start as "Redbirds." What was their year of introduction, what was their original color, and what line did they service (I'll take destination or number)?
(3) If you can answer no. 2 above, you'll be well acquainted with the special event those cars were named for, when they had a color that predated the Redbird moniker. What was it?
(4) All of the cars in the poster except one were built by ACF, St. Louis, or Pullman [also known as Pullman-Standard]. Only one was built by Budd. What year?
(5) What firm built the last car pictured, 1975, and for what division or divisions?
Disclaimer: Nobody maintains that the cars and years that made the poster represent every single generation of car adoption by the Subway system, nor even the major ones. It's quite possible that some major adoptions, even new generations, did not make this poster because they didn't represent a visible technical evolution, or even because they didn't look cool (this is a SEVENTIES poster, after all).
The winner is unlikely to get this by exploiting technicalities. The winner or winners are likely to be those who added their knowledge and wisdom to the knowledge and wisdom of prior posts. This post has a good reputation of winners' not fighting over posting the next question, but if there for some reason is a "draw" I have a quiz question in hand to use as a tie-breaker. Sudden Death.
Yes, I know divisions don't matter much anymore and are no longer referred to as such officially, but they did back then.
Hint: If you know which of the three N.Y.Subway divisions used alphas as codes, and which numbers, you have an small extra bit of insight into question 2 above.
Also note that no. 2 and no. 3 answer refers to the same year, same series!!!
Just do your best! As always, no research.
PS: The poster probably sounds like a mess the way I've described, but actually's it's pretty handsome IMHO. I know because I am looking at it right now.
back to my quantum physics
al-in-chgo wrote: Well, I guess I earned about half a brownie point for exposing the "trick" element in the question. This one's for all you Transit fans. In 1979, the MTA issued a "Diamond Jubilee" poster for the New York subway system's 75th anniversary, 1904-1979. Other than the title, which runs sideways, the bulk of the composition is made up of a vertical stack of eleven subway car sketches (non-schematic) for what the MTA considered the major technical advances in new generations of acqusition. Above each car is listed the name of the series and the manufacturer. To the left of each drawing is the year of introduction of that car. Okay, the dates of car aquisition alongside each car's drawing are as follows [this is important]: 19041914191619321938194819501963196419681975 (last one). Okay, some questions: (1) Name the year of car from the above list that was the first assigned to the IND division. (2) The generation called redbirds and only fairly recently retired (to make artificial reefs in the Atlantic) did not start as "Redbirds." What was their year of introduction, what was their original color, and what line did they service (I'll take destination or number)? (3) If you can answer no. 2 above, you'll be well acquainted with the special event those cars were named for, when they had a color that predated the Redbird moniker. What was it? (4) All of the cars in the poster except one were built by ACF, St. Louis, or Pullman [also known as Pullman-Standard]. Only one was built by Budd. What year? (5) What firm built the last car pictured, 1975, and for what division or divisions? Disclaimer: Nobody maintains that the cars and years that made the poster represent every single generation of car adoption by the Subway system, nor even the major ones. It's quite possible that some major adoptions, even new generations, did not make this poster because they didn't represent a visible technical evolution, or even because they didn't look cool (this is a SEVENTIES poster, after all). The winner is unlikely to get this by exploiting technicalities. The winner or winners are likely to be those who added their knowledge and wisdom to the knowledge and wisdom of prior posts. This post has a good reputation of winners' not fighting over posting the next question, but if there for some reason is a "draw" I have a quiz question in hand to use as a tie-breaker. Sudden Death. Yes, I know divisions don't matter much anymore and are no longer referred to as such officially, but they did back then. Hint: If you know which of the three N.Y.Subway divisions used alphas as codes, and which numbers, you have an small extra bit of insight into question 2 above. Also note that no. 2 and no. 3 answer refers to the same year, same series!!!Just do your best! As always, no research. PS: The poster probably sounds like a mess the way I've described, but actually's it's pretty handsome IMHO. I know because I am looking at it right now.
Some queasy guesses...
1. The IND was the newest div. It started running in the 1930s. So, I'll guess 1938.
2&3. IRT cars that ran on the 7th st. line, etc. - World's Fair cars. 1963. Silver and blue or just solid silver? IRT had numbered routes. 7th ave trains were 1, 2, 3.
4. Budd cars - 1968. Same time frame as M1s for the LIRR?
5. Cars for the BMT and IND. The mid 70s were a weird era. Most of the traditional builders were out or on the way out. The Japanese and Europeans hadn't shown up in the NA market yet- at least in a big way. Boeing was trying to build trolley cars. I'll guess Morrison-Knudsen assembled at the Brooklyn Navy Yard - total SWAG.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
oltmannd wrote: al-in-chgo wrote: Well, I guess I earned about half a brownie point for exposing the "trick" element in the question. This one's for all you Transit fans. In 1979, the MTA issued a "Diamond Jubilee" poster for the New York subway system's 75th anniversary, 1904-1979. Other than the title, which runs sideways, the bulk of the composition is made up of a vertical stack of eleven subway car sketches (non-schematic) for what the MTA considered the major technical advances in new generations of acqusition. Above each car is listed the name of the series and the manufacturer. To the left of each drawing is the year of introduction of that car. Okay, the dates of car aquisition alongside each car's drawing are as follows [this is important]: 19041914191619321938194819501963196419681975 (last one). Okay, some questions: (1) Name the year of car from the above list that was the first assigned to the IND division. (2) The generation called redbirds and only fairly recently retired (to make artificial reefs in the Atlantic) did not start as "Redbirds." What was their year of introduction, what was their original color, and what line did they service (I'll take destination or number)? (3) If you can answer no. 2 above, you'll be well acquainted with the special event those cars were named for, when they had a color that predated the Redbird moniker. What was it? (4) All of the cars in the poster except one were built by ACF, St. Louis, or Pullman [also known as Pullman-Standard]. Only one was built by Budd. What year? (5) What firm built the last car pictured, 1975, and for what division or divisions? Disclaimer: Nobody maintains that the cars and years that made the poster represent every single generation of car adoption by the Subway system, nor even the major ones. It's quite possible that some major adoptions, even new generations, did not make this poster because they didn't represent a visible technical evolution, or even because they didn't look cool (this is a SEVENTIES poster, after all). The winner is unlikely to get this by exploiting technicalities. The winner or winners are likely to be those who added their knowledge and wisdom to the knowledge and wisdom of prior posts. This post has a good reputation of winners' not fighting over posting the next question, but if there for some reason is a "draw" I have a quiz question in hand to use as a tie-breaker. Sudden Death. Yes, I know divisions don't matter much anymore and are no longer referred to as such officially, but they did back then. Hint: If you know which of the three N.Y.Subway divisions used alphas as codes, and which numbers, you have an small extra bit of insight into question 2 above. Also note that no. 2 and no. 3 answer refers to the same year, same series!!!Just do your best! As always, no research. PS: The poster probably sounds like a mess the way I've described, but actually's it's pretty handsome IMHO. I know because I am looking at it right now. Some queasy guesses...1. The IND was the newest div. It started running in the 1930s. So, I'll guess 1938. Actually it was the 1932 order. Most people don't realize that most of the IND system was in operation by Spring 1932. People associate the IND with Mayor Laguardia, but it was actually commissioned and [mostly] built under the previous Mayor. You get it right because your 1930s logic makes sense. 2&3. IRT cars that ran on the 7th st. line, etc. - World's Fair cars. 1963. Silver and blue or just solid silver? IRT had numbered routes. 7th ave trains were 1, 2, 3. Great job! 4. Budd cars - 1968. Same time frame as M1s for the LIRR? Sorry, but the one and only Budd-built cars put into service [on my poster anyway] was not in 1968. 5. Cars for the BMT and IND. Yup! The two divisions had already begun to buy cars jointly, although the ones actually delivered were usually slightly different. The mid 70s were a weird era. Most of the traditional builders were out or on the way out. The Japanese and Europeans hadn't shown up in the NA market yet- at least in a big way. Boeing was trying to build trolley cars. I'll guess Morrison-Knudsen** assembled at the Brooklyn Navy Yard - total SWAG. ** Please refer to the initial question. I gave the names of the only four companies that built for the Subway system. Recall that Budd only brought cars into service once. It was not Morrison-Knudsen. Dude, you know enough about the system that your next guess shouldn't be very wild at all!!A great start. Don't leave us now!!Al Smalling
1. The IND was the newest div. It started running in the 1930s. So, I'll guess 1938. Actually it was the 1932 order. Most people don't realize that most of the IND system was in operation by Spring 1932. People associate the IND with Mayor Laguardia, but it was actually commissioned and [mostly] built under the previous Mayor. You get it right because your 1930s logic makes sense.
2&3. IRT cars that ran on the 7th st. line, etc. - World's Fair cars. 1963. Silver and blue or just solid silver? IRT had numbered routes. 7th ave trains were 1, 2, 3. Great job!
4. Budd cars - 1968. Same time frame as M1s for the LIRR? Sorry, but the one and only Budd-built cars put into service [on my poster anyway] was not in 1968.
5. Cars for the BMT and IND. Yup! The two divisions had already begun to buy cars jointly, although the ones actually delivered were usually slightly different. The mid 70s were a weird era. Most of the traditional builders were out or on the way out. The Japanese and Europeans hadn't shown up in the NA market yet- at least in a big way. Boeing was trying to build trolley cars. I'll guess Morrison-Knudsen** assembled at the Brooklyn Navy Yard - total SWAG.
** Please refer to the initial question. I gave the names of the only four companies that built for the Subway system. Recall that Budd only brought cars into service once. It was not Morrison-Knudsen. Dude, you know enough about the system that your next guess shouldn't be very wild at all!!
A great start. Don't leave us now!!
Al Smalling
Budd delivered the R-32's in 1964. I rode a demonstration train equipped with NYC third rail shoes from GCT to Harmon Yard and back as a Press Run. (I was either President or Chairman of the Trip and Convetnion Committee of the Electric Railroaders Association at the time.)
These were not the ONLY Budd subway cars to have run in NYC. In the 1930's the very progressive BMT bought three experimental trains: The "Green Hornet" from Pullman (aluminum), 1934, the "Little Zephyr" from Budd, a five-section six truck articulated unit, and one very experimental three section "Bluebird" using pure PCC technolgoy from St. Louis, followed by a production run that was curtailed when the City took over in 1940. The first three-section unit saw sporadic service on the Franklin Ave shuttle, while the cars of the production run made up one train regularly used on the 16th Street Canarsie line until 1956. The Green Hornet was scrapped as part of an aluminum drive during WWII while waiting for new couplers. The Little Zephyr ran regularly on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle until 1954, and was scrapped in 1956.
The Bluebird set the future for most rapid transit lines outside NYC and was the first PCC rapid transit car. The New York City Transit Authority chose reliable 1930's technology dresssed up to look modern beginning with the 1948 R-10's and R-12's all the way through to the R-42's. Only now can it be said that New York is buying modern subway cars, perhaps for the last ten or fifteen years.
Dave, You nailed it. The 1964 R-32 Budd delivery for the IND and BMT shows up as the only fleet delivery they sent to the NYC system (on my poster anyway). My quiz painted in broad strokes and was meant to, but I appreciate your more detailed knowledge and it's fun to hear about leased trainsets and what might have been or what surely was for periods of NYC Subway history.
I'm mulling over a slightly different theme: I'm not sure where to draw the line as to what is "truly modern" or not. The 1975 introduction of the R-46 car built by Pullman-Standard, also for the IND and BMT [purists might insist on calling it the IND-BMT] -- it looks modern to me, with its length and front-window-on-cab-side design. You probably have a better idea about where to draw the line and please feel free to share it with us.
Oltmannd, you win! Because you got the maker right. As I said above, Pullman-Standard built the 1975 cars, the last generation shown on my 1979 poster (notice how I would have accepted either "Pullman" or "Pullman Standard" as an OK moniker).
Congratulations to all of you who posted here. Oltmannd, should you wish not to post the next question, then I think Daveklepper should get the opp'y.
My next post here will give the source authority for some of the quiz's information. I didn't derive EVERYTHING from that poster! - a.s.
A Conrail Quickie!
From the list below, there are three locomotive models that were never on Conrail's roster. Name two:
GP38-2
Alco T6
GE 44 ton
RS-3
E8
C420
AC4400
E33
GG1
GP40-2
GP60
SD60
SD50
B23-7
C636
SD80MAC
SD70MAC
C44-9W
SD60I
Alco HH660
Hi, here are a couple of sources regarding NYC Subway cars from the prior History Quiz of earlier today: the best website I've found on the New York Subway system is nycsubway.org
(This is May 13, 2008)
Here's a link to a photo of a 1963-1964 IRT in blue "World's Fair" livery for Route #7, the IRT. Most of the cars would later be repainted and become Redbirds: http://nycsubway.org/perl/show?77634
BTW only the old IRT division uses numbers for its lines (pre-unification BMT and IND use letters).
Also, no. 7 (IRT) line is the only IRT-division line to go to Queens.
Both the 1939 and the 1964 World's Fairs used as their subway terminus Flushing Meadows station.
Pic of a 1975 R-46 car (Pullman-Standard) in Bicentennial theme comes below (although it might not be directly below).
.... .... ....
Here's a photo of a 1975 R-46 type car from P-S that went into service on the BMT-IND lines (which were combined by then) It's in Bicentennial livery:
On July 2nd, 1976, the NY Transit Exhibit opened for business in the long-closed Court Street station in downtown Brooklyn. Originally planned as a temporary exhibit for the nation's bicentennial, it became a permanent museum. The mezzanine contained various exhibits and models; the platform level contained numerous subway and elevated cars from the museum collection. On July 17th, the first Nostalgia Trains began weekend runs between 57th Street / 6th Avenue and Rockaway Park, with a one hour stop at the Transit Exhibit. Service was supplied by the three D-Type cars 6019, 6095 and 6112, as well as a set of museum R-1/9s. The following year, on April 24th, 1977, the museum AB standards 2390, 2391 and 2392 would be used as well.
Even throughout the dark period of the late 1970s, there were improvement
And here's the link: http://nycsubway.org/articles/history-nycta1970s.html
oltmannd wrote: A Conrail Quickie!From the list below, there are three locomotive models that were never on Conrail's roster. Name two:GP38-2Alco T6GE 44 tonRS-3E8C420AC4400E33GG1GP40-2GP60SD60SD50B23-7C636SD80MACSD70MACC44-9WSD60IAlco HH660
Here's a WAG just to get things going:
GP-60
ALco HH660
The R-44's and R-46's were a half-way step to a modern subway car, from the 1930's technology of everything up through the R-42's. What counts is weight per passenger carried. Compair the weight of the "red Birds", the R-33's and R-36's and the very similarly sized PATH cars and you can see how vastly overweight the R-33's and R-36's are, with much of the difference being in the outside-framed very conventional truck design.
In some sense, even the 1914 Stillwell designed BMT "Standards" or "B-types" (actually A's, B's, BX's, and BT's) or "Steels" were structurally a more modern (efficient) body design than all R-types through the R-42's. In fact, one could say that about the original Hudson and Manhattan Stillwell designed "black cars."
Between the two of you, you got three of the four.
Some hints on your wrong guesses.
One was the last of a bunch the PRR used on the streets of Philly.
One was a model unique to Conrail.
One was the last model by this builder on the roster.
Hint on the one missing - BNSF and NS have a ton of them, but Conrail was buying all EMD at the end.
J. Edgar wrote:well now im confuddled....your first post asked for "2 of 3"....now theres 4?....well anyway id guess the c44-9w as the missing one
Looks like I confused myself in the process.... There are 4 and the C44-9 is the fourth.
So, you got 3 of the four - your turn!
Conrail's predecessors owned just about one of every model ever made and Conrail wasn't shy about trying just about every model the builder put out. In the last years, Conrail tried harder to standardize and in the early years, there were a few models that were long gone before Conrail got
The four are:
AC4400 - Conrail was thinking about biting on some of these just before the un-merger occurred
GP60 - Conrail was going to buy some of these and some SD75s in 1995, but went for SD80MACs instead
C44-9W (or what GE would call Dash 9-44CW, NS calls them Dash 9-40Cw because they spent most of their time running around derated to 4000 HP) - newest GEs Conrail had at the end were C40-8Ws. HH660 - a venerable ALco switcher that was long gone before 4/1/76.
HH660 - an ALco switcher long gone
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