J T wrote: solzrules wrote:If your on a busy freeway and someone is waving to you do you take your hands off the wheel and wave back? Sure. Since I drive with only one hand on the wheel, doing whatever I want with my free hand is no problem. I can walk and chew gum at the same time, too. zugmann wrote:A quick question - I have the radio mike in one hand, a pen in the other copying down what I need to do next. How can I wave in that situation? How about a quicker question...what if you have an itch during that moment...are you "too busy" to scratch?Look, I really don't give a damn whether anyone waves or not. My hobby is railroad photography. If you get off on waving at foamers along the tracks, fine. If you get off on ignoring them, fine as well. But what I just find ridiculous is this excuse that anyone is "too busy" to move a part of their body for a split second in time. That's all it is...nothing more, nothing less.
solzrules wrote:If your on a busy freeway and someone is waving to you do you take your hands off the wheel and wave back?
If your on a busy freeway and someone is waving to you do you take your hands off the wheel and wave back?
Sure. Since I drive with only one hand on the wheel, doing whatever I want with my free hand is no problem. I can walk and chew gum at the same time, too.
zugmann wrote:A quick question - I have the radio mike in one hand, a pen in the other copying down what I need to do next. How can I wave in that situation?
A quick question - I have the radio mike in one hand, a pen in the other copying down what I need to do next. How can I wave in that situation?
How about a quicker question...what if you have an itch during that moment...are you "too busy" to scratch?
Look, I really don't give a damn whether anyone waves or not. My hobby is railroad photography. If you get off on waving at foamers along the tracks, fine. If you get off on ignoring them, fine as well. But what I just find ridiculous is this excuse that anyone is "too busy" to move a part of their body for a split second in time. That's all it is...nothing more, nothing less.
How people perform their work is of no concern to those not so involved. The simple point of most of the railroaders on this thread is that certain railfans seem to think they have an entitlement to dictate to us how we should perform our duties on penalty of being held in "contempt of fan". I say "Bring it on". Your contempt or other opinions (including some of the sketchy and incorrect legal opinions on this thread) are of ZERO consequence to me in the performance of my railroad job. I will still be performing my job as safely and efficiently as I am able. And if that means I am scratching an itch rather than waving, so be it.
LC
Midnight Railroader wrote: Soo 6604 wrote: I caught 9 trains and instead of waving, I gave them all the "One Finger Salute", and you know what? You guessed it. Every engineer and conductor (on the southbounds) gave me the finger back. They even opened the window to make sure that I saw them saluting me back. What? They even opened the window? But the A/C was on! They said they don't do that--it lets out the cool air and messes up all their paperwork. And weren't they busy running the train, talking to the dispatcher, watching for obstacles on the track, scanning for terrorists, and all the other tasks they have to do? I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safety.
Soo 6604 wrote: I caught 9 trains and instead of waving, I gave them all the "One Finger Salute", and you know what? You guessed it. Every engineer and conductor (on the southbounds) gave me the finger back. They even opened the window to make sure that I saw them saluting me back.
I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safety.
More than likely someone knew you were there and just couldn't get up the energy to use all their fingers given the little black cloud you drag around with you was depressing them so. They could only raise the one. Or perhaps it was that redwood on your shoulder blocking out the sun and nearly putting the train crew to sleep in its shadow...
I'm just glad I wasn't there to see your ugly mug...
zugmann wrote: J T wrote:The thing that entertains me the most about this topic is that people actually THINK it takes TIME to wave. What planet are you living on? Waving takes NO effort or "time" regardless if you're driving a car, plane, train, motorcycle, or whatever. Someone please tell me that those who say there isn't "time" to move a part of the body are just joking. Seriously...this sentiment that there isn't time is just a joke, right? A quick question - I have the radio mike in one hand, a pen in the other copying down what I need to do next. How can I wave in that situation?
J T wrote:The thing that entertains me the most about this topic is that people actually THINK it takes TIME to wave. What planet are you living on? Waving takes NO effort or "time" regardless if you're driving a car, plane, train, motorcycle, or whatever. Someone please tell me that those who say there isn't "time" to move a part of the body are just joking. Seriously...this sentiment that there isn't time is just a joke, right?
You could wiggle your ears!
Ooo Ooo Ooo... I know!
You could stick your tongue out and waggle it around!
That would kill two birds with one stone!
1) You would have the satisfaction of knowing that you were nice and responded by waving as best as you could under the circumstances.
2) You will have expressed your feelings directly!
I gotta start waving at train crews again!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I've come to the conclusion that it really is just not worth dealing with Railfans along the ROW. My new rule will be to cease all waving or other bodily movements which could be construed as a gesture, friendly or not to those trackside. To those who photograph me without my permission and seek to make ANY commercial use of that photo, you will find that I will respond as I deem necessary, certainly if I am disciplined as a result of your conduct I will seek relief from the appropriate finder of fact in a court of law and equity. One of the wonderful things about the First Amendment is that it is written to restrict the Government and not private citizens, like me, who's lives may be impacted by the arrogance and foolishness of those who just have to get that photo...
Just because you have freedom, doesn't make it free...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I can't believe that 17 pages have been written on hand waving....
If your on a busy freeway and someone is waving to you do you take your hands off the wheel and wave back? If your running a 10,000 ton train and in the middle of keeping it from running away do you lose focus and wave at the 40 something with the greasy hair and the doughnuts? (Laughed my rear end off at that one...)
I have found in my meager attempts at railfanning that just about everyone from any railroad will wave. CN, UP, CP, WISOR (their guys always look like they are in their teens, I don't think I've see an older dude on that line). If they don't, that's fine too. They are doing a job, after all, and it isn't to wave at everything.
CN gets special recognition because I was able to get on a richety old wooden bridge just to the north of Slinger once that passed over the mainline. I called my wife, and just before the dash 9 passed underneath I 'waved' and the engineer responded by blowing the whistle right under my feet. That was pretty funny. My wife actually thought I had found a way to get under the train. Good times......
Weather is good down here, Folkston under certain circumstances can get up to 60-70 trains a day, but on Sunday, I saw 10 in 7 hours, and on Monday 5 in 3 hours. About 1 every 30-45 minutes.
Grayson
"Lionel trains are the standard of the world" - Jousha Lionel Cowen
***Grayson, perhaps it's the Southern Hospitality factor that brought such good results? BTW, how's the weather down there in Savannah? Hope folks are making second cuts of hay down there. Still in short supply up here in Fairmount (Northwest GA). Almost made a special trip into town just to run my own "wave test", but need to peg down when the trains roll through first. Can't afford a whole day sitting and waiting, although it does seem like relatively frequent traffic on those lines.
Back in Washington State (10+ years ago) I would say over 50% of the time I would get waves back from Engineers. Higher for those in the caboose, when they were used. Now, if my sister was along, the wave factor would always rise and many more horn blasts would sound. (She's a LOT prettier than I am)
Rob
Ok, I am apologizing to all engineers or crew that I offended, I just got back from Folkston Ga, and at least 80% of the engineers/conductors etiher waved or blew the horn in the rapid bursts. One amtrack engineer even opened his window all the way to wave, and on Dash 9 condutor waved with the window open as well.
Sure makes your day when a engineer waves,
Dan
CNW 6000 wrote: When I go to take pictures I try not to get the crew in the shot as I don't want to get anyone in trouble because I took a pic of the equipment they were operating or riding on/in. Simply put: I don't have their permission to take their picture. That's how I look at it.
The next time anybody drives thru a newer intersection, look on top of the traffic lights (stop and go lights for the people from Wisconsin) and see if there are cameras there. Drive in waukesha at night and go thru the red stop and go lights (traffic lights for those outside of Wisconsin) and see if you get a quick flash. Yes, thats a camera taking your picture of going thru the lights. Does BiG Brother have permission to take pictures of us inside our cars? Yes he does. Do we have permission to take pictures on public property taking pictures of anything and anyone? Yes we do (a right that is being challenged everyday in the courts). But a person also have the right to ask you not to take their picture and sometimes take matters into their own hands, legally.
If a person is doing something wrong that could result in injury to that person or someone else, he should be reported. I thought the railroad industry strived on safety? Workers shouldnt worry about what someone else outside their work area is doing. Whats the difference if you right there taking the picture or on top of a building taking the same picture? From my experience of doing photos other than locos, signals and rolling stock, if you approach the people that are working in a safe and alert manner with your camera visable and you get their attention when they arent busy and point to the camera and ask them to take their picture. Most will say yes and some maybe even give you their address for a copy (I sent out over 30 photos that I took of the engineers and conductors posing on the nose of Conrail Trains leaving Elkhart IN on Conrails very last day).
From my experience this is what I do, if its moving....its fair game. If its stopped and cant ask the people for permission to photograph....its fair game. If there are people around and you can get to them without trespassing...go ask, you might be surprised. Anytime your on public property, anything is fair game!
Paul
http://www.youtube.com/user/pavabo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulvbox
CopCarSS wrote:Dan, Maybe I'm being completely obtuse, but if a railroader is following the rules while on the job, how are you going to get him fired by taking his picture? If you take his picture while he's not following the rules and possibly endangering himself, his co-workers or the general public, isn't it better if he does get reprimanded/fired/whatever?
Maybe I'm being completely obtuse, but if a railroader is following the rules while on the job, how are you going to get him fired by taking his picture? If you take his picture while he's not following the rules and possibly endangering himself, his co-workers or the general public, isn't it better if he does get reprimanded/fired/whatever?
CopCarSS wrote:BTW, in my mind we're all foamers. Of course there are degrees of foamerishness, but I still think we fall in there somewhere. Sorry if you resent that.
I would say that the hobby of railfanning is one of those nice hobbies where people from every walk of life can enjoy a common thing. My resolution from thinking about this thread is to enjoy what I can see, when I can see it, for what it is. Whatever that may be.
zugmann wrote: Boy, you are not a happy person. I do know the name of a decent rope dealer if interested... And I waved to a railfan yesterday, and the idiot didn't wave back! So don't you be focusing on just train crews. Besides, it takes less effort to raise one finger than our whole arm.
Boy, you are not a happy person. I do know the name of a decent rope dealer if interested... And I waved to a railfan yesterday, and the idiot didn't wave back! So don't you be focusing on just train crews. Besides, it takes less effort to raise one finger than our whole arm.
And, yes, the person to whom you waved should have had the courtesy to return the gesture.
Midnight Railroader wrote: Harry_Runyon wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote:What? They even opened the window? But the A/C was on! They said they don't do that--it lets out the cool air and messes up all their paperwork. And weren't they busy running the train, talking to the dispatcher, watching for obstacles on the track, scanning for terrorists, and all the other tasks they have to do? I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safetyWeren't you one of the original posters on this thread who was all spun up because the cab crews were not waving...'cause they were being jerks? Man, you're just not happy with anything.... My point is that there were numerous posts here from crew members explaining why they don't have time to wave, because of all the reasons listed above, like safety...but when someone flips them off, well, then they have time. Then, safety isn't a concern anymore.
Harry_Runyon wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote:What? They even opened the window? But the A/C was on! They said they don't do that--it lets out the cool air and messes up all their paperwork. And weren't they busy running the train, talking to the dispatcher, watching for obstacles on the track, scanning for terrorists, and all the other tasks they have to do? I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safetyWeren't you one of the original posters on this thread who was all spun up because the cab crews were not waving...'cause they were being jerks? Man, you're just not happy with anything....
Midnight Railroader wrote:What? They even opened the window? But the A/C was on! They said they don't do that--it lets out the cool air and messes up all their paperwork. And weren't they busy running the train, talking to the dispatcher, watching for obstacles on the track, scanning for terrorists, and all the other tasks they have to do? I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safety
I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safety
Weren't you one of the original posters on this thread who was all spun up because the cab crews were not waving...'cause they were being jerks?
Man, you're just not happy with anything....
Where on here did anyone say that they do all that work the entire cab ride? Of course sometimes the crew just got their warrant, had a roll-by, looked over the timetable, and are cruising at 40 mph with 50 cars, then they have some time to wave. They dont have time ALL the time, but they do have times when they can.
Now of course crews have to be vigiliant and safety consious all the time, but you can be vigilant and still have time to wave. I know, I do it all the time.
Now if I see some 40 something tubbo with greasy air that kinda looks like Weird Al Yankovich, with 3 camera's and donuts, I wont wave, but think with mild amazement of how people can make certain decisions in life.
Mechanical Department "No no that's fine shove that 20 pound set all around the yard... those shoes aren't hell and a half to change..."
The Missabe Road: Safety First
Dan,
BTW, in my mind we're all foamers. Of course there are degrees of foamerishness, but I still think we fall in there somewhere. Sorry if you resent that.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
zugmann wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: What? They even opened the window? But the A/C was on! They said they don't do that--it lets out the cool air and messes up all their paperwork. And weren't they busy running the train, talking to the dispatcher, watching for obstacles on the track, scanning for terrorists, and all the other tasks they have to do? I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safety. Boy, you are not a happy person. I do know the name of a decent rope dealer if interested... And I waved to a railfan yesterday, and the idiot didn't wave back! So don't you be focusing on just train crews. Besides, it takes less effort to raise one finger than our whole arm. You know, you really should stop railfanning and collect butterflies. They always wave.
Midnight Railroader wrote: What? They even opened the window? But the A/C was on! They said they don't do that--it lets out the cool air and messes up all their paperwork. And weren't they busy running the train, talking to the dispatcher, watching for obstacles on the track, scanning for terrorists, and all the other tasks they have to do? I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safety.
What? They even opened the window? But the A/C was on! They said they don't do that--it lets out the cool air and messes up all their paperwork. And weren't they busy running the train, talking to the dispatcher, watching for obstacles on the track, scanning for terrorists, and all the other tasks they have to do?
You know, you really should stop railfanning and collect butterflies. They always wave.
LOL!
Midnight Railroader wrote:What? They even opened the window? But the A/C was on! They said they don't do that--it lets out the cool air and messes up all their paperwork. And weren't they busy running the train, talking to the dispatcher, watching for obstacles on the track, scanning for terrorists, and all the other tasks they have to do? I guess flipping someone off takes priority over safety.
Perhaps I should clarify my post above:I do realize that there is a human aspect to railroads/railroading. When I go to take pictures I try not to get the crew in the shot as I don't want to get anyone in trouble because I took a pic of the equipment they were operating or riding on/in. Simply put: I don't have their permission to take their picture. That's how I look at it.
Am I glad that 'Joe' is navigating whatever train down the track and because I know him/he knows me he'll make sure the lights are on or he's throttling up to make a nicer appearance or sound? Yes. I greatly appreciate the crews that do that and understand the crews that don't for whatever reason. I am not a 'foamer' and resent that label.
I owe my passion for trains/railfanning to an engineer on the CNW named Ernie who'd let me in the cab of his GPs or SDs that were waiting for clearance to take the main. It's out of respect for the crews and their private lives that I don't want to take thier picture and thus perhaps get them in trouble. I'd feel terrible if they lost a job because I took a picture of an engine. I do appreciate them to the nth degree.
What Happened?
1. Kids in the 1960s throwing rocks.
2. Air conditioning.
3. Sept. 11, 2001.
As for all the other excuses about watching the track, etc. The Steam locomotive crews worked next to a roaring bonfire, had to look down the long barrel of a boiler, sweated in the heat and froze in the cold, and still had time to look far enough down the track (at 100 miles an hour on a passenger train) to see a waving boy, or a camera, in plenty of time to wave - even "make smoke" for that camera. (Maybe todays eyes, just sitting at a 'desk' in air-conditioned comfort on a four-to-eight hour run - unless something goes wrong - they suffer from 'fatigue' and can't see beyond the hood--like a lot of people in their 90 mph pickups!)
Me? I don't bother anymore. When the first WTC tower went down, I put my camera away. Being a retired big-rig truck driver (who's greatest trip involved pacing UP 844 down Sherman Hill on I-80 in 1978 in my Freightliner!), I've encountered my share of Gung-ho rookie cops. The "Old Heads" were great guys: they had some common sense. Out in the barren west between the 100th Meridian and the California border cops and truckers used to respect, and even help, each other. That was before the Interstate and "Tricky Dick's" "55".
What happened to the waving engineer? The same thing that's happened to Liberty in this country since the mid-1960s: Negative "progress". You think this a 'free' country? Just ask a truck driver!
I'm sorry you guys under 45 missed out on what we had, we had it all.
ardenastationmaster (one of the "old heads")
Remember, if the opposite of "pro-" is "con-", then the opposite of progress is Congress.
CNW 6000 wrote: Krazykat112079 wrote:It isn't a big deal, because I'm not interested in the engineer, but the SD-40-2 in which he is sitting.
Krazykat112079 wrote:It isn't a big deal, because I'm not interested in the engineer, but the SD-40-2 in which he is sitting.
I dunno...maybe it's just my perspective, but maybe this is why some crew members are disinclined to wave. In essence, the above comment says something to the effect of "Hey you! Move it! Your wrecking my shot!"
I'm not going to deny the fact that I'm an equipment foamer, too. However, I also realize that railroading would be nothing without the people of the railroad. Your SD40-2 won't run itself, would it? Not only is your inconvenient engineer necessary to that SD40-2, so is every other railroader past and present. Without their efforts, that SD40-2 would be a hunk of iron doing absolutely nothing.
I kind of understand what this thread was originally about. Look back in an old Don Ball, Jr. book sometime, and read about his perspective on train crews in his youth. They hold a place very near royalty in his world. And I don't think that his was an isolated viewpoint. I think railroaders were truly heroes in the "good old days."
Reading a comment like, "I'm not interested in the engineer, but the SD-40-2 in which he is sitting." makes one realize that railroad personel, evenly that lordly engineer has fallen from royalty to somewhere just above the guy that gets to clean out port-a-potties. No wonder some railroaders disdain foamers and don't wave anymore...
Like I said, just my .
Watching CN, most of the locomotives (well, pretty much all of them before the ES44's and SD70M-2's) don't have A/C...CN chose to leave it off, so many crews run with the windows open....I've found I usually get a wave back, if i'm not too busy taking pictures of course. Sometimes even a blast on the horn....it seems VIA crews are quicker on the horn. I had one day that i was set up with my tripod on an open section of the CN main, and a VIA P42 was coming down at speed. The engineer started a good half mile back and gave me 23 blasts on the horn (I swear that must be a record!!). All of that was followed by a friendly wave which I could just make out through the tinted glass.
For the most part, my experiences with the CN crews have been positive, especially the locals. I had one engineer waiting on a local one day in front of the VIA station in Brockville, ON. He told me there was an intermodal on its way eastbound, and told me I should head up to the nearby overpass for a good shot. He even gave me a blast on the horn to let me know when it was coming...too bad I ran out of film :(
It is often hard though, being a now 17 year old diehard railfan. Mainly the MOW crews seem to think I'm there for nothing but trouble...I've had one run in with the cops while trying to photograph a stopped VIA train from an overpass....I had no idea it had just hit somebody, and the cops wouldn't tell me that much anyway...they just threatened to take my camera... but that's really a story for another day...
-Tim
I live next to the Ohio Central tracks in Newcomerstown ,Ohio.Both Ohio Central and Norfolk and Southern use these tracks.
There are several engineers that wave at me sitting on my porch and a couple that give me a little toot when they go by.But ,there are a couple of them that won't even look my way,so I know what you are talking about.
Lloyd Bradford
This morning while railfanning I had a very nice chat with a crew waiting on 2 trains..After the normal pleasantries the conductor said he has notice me on just about every trip he made and they was wondering how many pictures I took this year.I replied I lost count at 127.He smiled and said "That's a lot of pictures" and proceed to ask me if I seen the OCS train yet and I replied not yet.He then stated they should be through here next week..He then advised me there was 3 more trains behind him and about that time we heard the first train blowing so,I step aside so he could do his roll by inspection of the on coming train.
So you see there are friendly crews left.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNW 6000 wrote: I think that was a tongue-in-cheek reference to all of the comments that there's no time to wave because of the duties with running the train. <DING>Round two!
I think that was a tongue-in-cheek reference to all of the comments that there's no time to wave because of the duties with running the train.
<DING>
Round two!
Yesterday, I saw an engineer that was too busy lounging with his feet out the window and chatting with his coworker to wave.
edit: In no way am I saying he is a jerk, though. It isn't a big deal, because I'm not interested in the engineer, but the SD-40-2 in which he is sitting.
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