OK, I think this has gone on long enough.
Let me be perfectly clear that I want no one to leave this forum. Please read my previous posts for my opinion on everyone coming closer to middle ground.
Now, lets move on. Take a deep cleansing breath and put this behind us.
Have a great weekend everyone, Bergie
The public thinks we are that nuisance that blocks crossings to make them late for work and wakes them up at night with our excessive horn blowing.
I still wave anyhow. But I notice not many sitting at grade crossings return the gesture.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
J T wrote: railcar wrote: Waving is not a train subject.In 31 years of railroading no one told waving is part of my job.Since when did a railroader's job description dictate what subjects could be discussed on the forum for Trains Magazine?You know, I'd be willing to bet that somewhere in those 31 years of your railroading employment, Trains Magazine published a photo with an engineer or conductor waving. They probably even made a comment about it. Heck, go back 60+ years that they've been around and I bet there could even be TWO references to train employees waving in their magazines SOMEWHERE.When they did, I'm sure no one called them out as publishing something that wasn't train related.
railcar wrote: Waving is not a train subject.In 31 years of railroading no one told waving is part of my job.
Waving is not a train subject.In 31 years of railroading no one told waving is part of my job.
Since when did a railroader's job description dictate what subjects could be discussed on the forum for Trains Magazine?
You know, I'd be willing to bet that somewhere in those 31 years of your railroading employment, Trains Magazine published a photo with an engineer or conductor waving. They probably even made a comment about it. Heck, go back 60+ years that they've been around and I bet there could even be TWO references to train employees waving in their magazines SOMEWHERE.
When they did, I'm sure no one called them out as publishing something that wasn't train related.
However, YOU are the company representative that the public sees most often. If you are a nasty ol' grump, what does the public think of the company you work for (regardless of what you think of the company that serves up your paycheck)?
If your company wants to expand operations in some community what will the community be thinking of your employer before negotiations even start?
If there is a dispute between a community and your employer what will that community have to start with as an impression of who they are dealing with?
I know you are not schooled in "Public Relations" and your company has a whole department devoted to that discipline, but I only see the result of their work once a month in TRAINS Magazine, but I see YOU most every day. Your Corporate Public Relations department is paid to put the company's best foot forward, but it is YOU that the public sees and deals with whilst they are sitting at a crossing being delayed getting home from a hard day's work.
If you have not been informed of your role in Public Relations by your Human Resources department then the head of Human Resources needs to go park trackside for a while.
I am NOT saying that you have to pass out candy nor be prepared to discuss investment opportunities in railroad stock, I'm AM saying that a smile and friendly wave may help the general public be a bit more appreciative of the job you do FOR us.
Thank YOU for bringing coal to my local electric generating plant. Thank YOU for sorting the cars to get my consumer items to the correct places. Thank YOU for hauling grain from the producer to the processor so I can have my cereal in the morning. SMILE and take a lot of PRIDE in your work. I certainly appreciate what YOU do!
I think I will stop "waving" and start "applauding".
Okay, nobody would "dispute" that I am "WIERD" (misspelling and all) nor would anybody say they "got yer back" to me, though they would defend anybody in their particular "Clique" that way. (I guess one person said I made a "good point", I just thought I had my hair combed so nobody would notice it.)
But "I" will defend your right to wave OR not wave and "I" will recognize the good job YOU do.
If you see some "WIERD" foaming fat donut eating camera toting fool out applauding as you pass by, you can frown and throw some Cheetos AT me!
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I guess I'm sort of wondering where some harmless chit chat and gossip turned into the "Bipolar Express"?
I can tell the non-railroaders on the forum simply from my own experiences. Not that there is anything wrong with being a Non-RRer, I was one for years. Folks, RRing can be an enjoyable career and not unlike flying or any of the other jobs that are 99% boredom punctuated by 1% sheer terror. Most ot a T&E career can be spent in a switchman's shack or crewroom filling out paperwork or entering it into those new fangled (or in the case of the NS ancient) computers. How much coffee have I and so many other RRers drank under such circumstances. I'll tell you it's been A LOT (and much of it not all that good either). How many lunches or parts of lunches or other meals have we shared (and discussed endlessly) in those places or on the road in a locomotive cab caboose or DINER!! I still remember a certain redheaded waitress...(never mind)
In my experience newcomers are drawn here by their love of the rails, a desire to learn more and a sense of participation alone and with others. Newcomers on the railroad are often treated with hazing or even outright suspicion. One old head Conductor called me "junior" until he had to work with me as his Engineer. That put a stop to it. No one here is intentionally treated that way. I frankly don't have any issues in the Diner. No one there has ever threatened me or asked me to leave (unlike some other threads) and those forum members I have had the pleasure to meet in person are terrific upstanding people, the sort who make terrific mentors and aren't afraid to ask the "obvious" questions that can send railroaders back to the books for an answer (or even the on site glossary). Newcomers to the site could do a lot worse.
Not so fast, Ed.
Let's not create falsehoods about which to argue, which unfortunately is the gyst of the lengthy diatribe you wrote above.
You argue about the rights of those in the diner to do whatever it is they do. You state:
"a few of the folks posting here want the Diner to go away, because they don't agree with or like what is discussed there, or don't find it interesting...and that only the things this group deem worthy should be allowed on the forum...basically they are acting like "Word Police"...
That's a fabrication, not what is being said at all. Where are passages that support that statement? All I ever said was I thought what goes on in the diner is silly. I still find no reason to change that opinion.
No one said those folks don't have a right to be here, as you imply, Ed. And I don't believe that crap about you making fun of my screen name just to get my attention. I'm not an inattentive imbecile.
And also not relative are the pedigrees of those who patronize the diner. What's being judged is the silliness of using this railroad-oriented forum to order and eat imaginary breakfasts. Period.
Your excess verbiage is merely a smoke-screen to disguise what is a non-existent argument.
Now I'll explain the First Amendment, because you don't understand it. I'll also do it without trying to bolster my argument by peppering my rhetoric with emotionally-charged statements that aren't relative here. We're talking about railroads, not the KKK or Skinheads. Sheesh.
First and foremost, the staff at Trains.com decides what goes and what does not on these forums. Members should forget about making noise about having their freedom of speech "rights" violated, because they have none here and no grounds to complain. Membership is a privilege, not a right, and whatever privileges Trains.com decides to grant is what you have. By registering to be a member, you consent to follow the rules -- ergo, no unlimited Free Speech. And has been demonstrated in the past, those privileges can be revoked.
On the other hand, if you pay for and maintain your OWN web page, you may enjoy Freedom of Speech. But that doesn't absolve you from being sued for defamation, slander and libel after you post what you have written.
The opposite is you do not have Freedom of Speech to yell "fire" in a crowded theater.
But here's the wonderful mechanics of the First Amendment as applicable on a web forum like Trains.com:
I and anyone else has a right to the opinion that the diner thread is silly.
The diner clique has a right to disagree with those opinions. They have an equal right to feel we're silly.
I have no right to demand the diner goes away, and I never said that, did I Ed?
And in that same vein, they have no right to come here and tell us we're out of line for expressing our legitimate, honest opinions. But they do so only because they disagree... while in the same breath, they're telling us how friendly and welcoming they are. That's hypocracy, Ed. The diner people ought to practice what they preach -- and THAT'S the issue.
You'll also notice NOT ONE of us has been there to start trouble over this, either. They have been left them alone to enjoy their Friday Night Fish Fry in peace. Stop trying to paint them as martyrs -- those poor, misunderstood, picked-on diner folks -- because nobody is gonna buy it.
My point exactly, Poppa...
When did yours, mine or anyone else's 1st Amendment rights become more of a"right" than theirs?
Who decides which parties rights supersede the others?
If they want to discuss chocolate cake, chat about the weather, or pick noses, what in the world does is cost you or anyone else on this forum?
Does it harm you?
Cost you money, time or effort?
So, if I read the1st Amendment correctly, it pretty much says that what's ok for one group is also ok for any other, which is why such disgusting groups as the KKK and the Arian Nation get the same legal protection towards the right to express their views as the president of the NAACP, or LULAC gets.
By the way, you could count all of my posting in the diner with your shoes on...I don't go there often, but I do think they have the right to discuss what ever they feel like discussing, whether I, you, or anyone else like, enjoys, agrees or disagrees with it, without harassment by anyone...just like you should be able to discuss whatever you like to, with no repercussions, no suppression of your ideas, words or comments.
After all, what's sauce for the goose....
By the way, I was picking on your screen name to get both you attention, and to point out the hypocrisy of anyone on this thread calling anyone else childish, adolescent or silly...
What I got out of this thread was that a few of the folks posting here want the Diner to go away, because they don't agree with or like what is discussed there, or don't find it interesting...and that only the things this group deem worthy should be allowed on the forum...basically they are acting like "Word Police"...
By the way, after having personally met Carl and his wife, Mookie, Mudchicken and a few others, including Willy, I am well within my "rights" to chide Carl...
He too is a published author as you put it, and you should hold him as accountable to defend the 1st amendment rights of others as you hold me...but if you note, he was just as unpleasant and derogatory towards the Diner and its participants as anyone else...and the truly asinine part is all of this is being hashed over in a thread about waving...what's next, a thread about "The lost art of work boot shoe string tying?"
Think about this...if the folks there bug you guys so much, consider this...as long as they are in the diner talking food, they are not participating in your serious train stuff threads, and not getting in your way of expressing you opinions about how really train smart you guys are...even though one of them owns a real railroad short line, one of them designs and builds real railroads, one of them switches cars, several of them haul trains, run locomotives, one is a trainmaster, one builds and repairs locomotives, one of them is a dispatcher, you get my point...
In fact, one of the former Diner participants wrote two books on rail cars, is considered by several folks, myself included, and several other forums as a rolling stock guru, he keeps track of cars system wide, and belongs to a group made up of folks who, by any definition of the word, are rail fans, not to mention he is a real railroader...you pretty much have to step over the real railroaders in the diner just to get out the door.
It seemed to me that someone along the way in this thread offered the opinion that this forum should exclude the non train smart people, because they drag down the serious discussions that go on here...Wow, talk about suppressing someone 1st amendment rights...
This is a shame really; when one considers that one of the goals of any forum should be to teach about the forums subject, not exclude those who are seeking knowledge.
Where are you going to hang the "Train smart people only!" sign?
And a funny though just occurred to me...by discussing the DDCS thread, you guys have strayed outside of your "only real train stuff" discussion rule...you guys just broke your own self imposed rule about non serious railroad stuff.
Point is, you guys are acting just as silly and childish as you state the Diner participants are...but is seems to be ok for this group to act so, at the expense of the other...so where do their 1st amendment rights end?
Is it at the point where yours pick up?
Or are their right to exist and speak less than your's because they say things you don't like?
Personally, I think they have the equal right to talk about chocolate cake all they want to, just as much as you speak about photography, couplers, or wheel bearings.
Without harrasment, with out being defamed, insulted or punished.
In fact, the same 1st Amendment rights you are touting should apply to them as much as it applies to you...if fact, even though you dont like what they discuss, you should be in the forefront in defending their right to do so, being as you are a professional photographer, and should know how important, and precious those rights are.
You know, "equal in the eyes of the law" and all that stuff....
The best recourse...if you don't like the Diner, don't read it, and don't worry about it's existence, it didn't and doesn't cost you a thing.
By the way, I went to the diner to see what the fuss was about, and until today, I have not be able to find one derogatory remark about "the serious railroad talk guys", or any one person singled out for ill respect anywhere in that thread, they don't call anyone names, consider or call any other group a clique, nor do the folks there consider themselves better or smarter than anyone else.
They don't hold out the opinion that the Diner is more important than any other part of the forum, in fact, they seem to consider the train talk as important, if not more so, that what they discuss there, and they do talk trains, even post train photos and trip pictures.
Shame other folks here don't act as civilized, well manner or polite as they act towards each other in that thread...
23 17 46 11
Funny Bergie and the other dude would say what they did. Hell I stayed away from this entire place for almost a year. Well I'm new to posting here (Trains forum) but the model RR forums are worse. I was so tired of opening a thread just to find I wasted time of my life doing so. So I will go and give myself a spankin for participating in what drove me away in the first place. Man I hoe the neighbors don't call the cops on me if they see me beating my own back side behind the wood shed.
Jeremy
solzrules wrote: ...........Global Warming (basically a religious type of discussion)Politics (any and all are not very good here, but sometimes they are unavoidable)Where is it (don't understand these at all) 'trains light' topics.
...........Global Warming (basically a religious type of discussion)
Politics (any and all are not very good here, but sometimes they are unavoidable)
Where is it (don't understand these at all)
'trains light' topics.
"Trains light-for the less than serious side train related thingies" (?)
Just a thought. ( shrugs )
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
The depot diner is one example of the threads I am referring to. This thread is another. When I first started to read this thread on page 17, I could not believe that so much had been written about so little. Other good examples:
Global Warming (basically a religious type of discussion)
If you worked for the railroad, and after a 12 hour shift you signed on to read about waving engineers and then clicked over to see what was on the warmer in the depot diner, I would certainly be amazed. After 12 hours of work the only thing I want is several cold beers, good food, and some good sleep.
I just don't think that the website as a whole can be taken very seriously when there is such a proponderance of 'trains light' topics. As someone who actually does do some research on railroads for the idea of investing in them, I rarely find a thread that is informative here.
Again, what I find interesting is the response to the criticism. You could just write the critics off as oddballs who don't get it. After reading the diner responses, I really think some people were crying at their computers. How sad.
solzrules wrote: Semper Vaporo wrote: Bergie wrote: Semper Vaporo wrote: I don't object to anyone posting in the diner. But, as a relative newcomer to "this" forum, the first impression I got was that it was just plain wierd; 'with a capital wie', as Cat [from Red Dwarf] would say.You just hit my greatest fear right on the head. That fear is that a newcomer will stroll through our forum, see a bunch of off-topic, fictitious discussions about breakfast, and write our entire forum off as a joke / uninformative / childish, etc.Again, I perfectly understand the personal aspect of the things that go on in all of our coffee shop threads throughout our forum, but the first impression that they give to a newcomer - be it a railroad novice or a railroad industry professional - truly scares me. Please remember that this forum is tied to our magazine. For 67 years we've been THE magazine of railroading. With that in mind, when someone visits our Web site, we want our site to relay that image. Off topic discussions about what's for dinner don't exactly shed a positive light on the credibility that the magazine has tried to establish with the railroading industry for the past 67 years. I hope you understand that I want to protect the image of our magazine to all visitors to our site. Again, when a person finds our site and is completely new to the forum, they might look at the diner as childish and write off our site and our magazine at the same time. I don't want that to happen.That's the reasoning for my call for all parties, both diner and non-diner participants, to come closer to the middle. For diner members, continue on with your personal discussions that allow all of us to become friends, but lighten up on the off-topic (if not off the wall) discussions about what's for breakfast. In the same vein, I'd ask all non-diner participants to stop caring if others choose to use the diner as a way to get to know one another. Again, if both sides come closer to the middle, we'll all be better off.Thank you for your understanding.BergieI must clarify that I didn't think of the whole forum as being weird... just that one thread. And it was not necessarily a totally bad view of that thread... and it was not a reflection of the people that populate that thread... They have messages in other places and they seem like normal people (Oh dear, did I just insult them all!)I just knew immediately that I didn't know what was going on there, and that it must be some sort of "insiders" or "old hats" portion of the forum. I didn't know anybody on this forum and I still don't KNOW them.I have wondered if maybe the title of the thread could be a bit more descriptive... I now figure the C.S. means "Coffee Shop" but I don't know (or care, [sorry]) what the D.D. means... but then, even if I knew what they meant, it still does not tell me what to expect... it might take a book to describe the thread such that one could understand it, (and folk would argue about what is in the book, and few, if any, would read it anyway... how many people remember the "rules" associated with making any postings here?... how many actually read them?) So a more descriptive title is probably unattainable.I have been lurking on that thread for a day or so, just to try to get a feel on it again... sorry, I still find it a bit... hmmmmm.... well, I have been searching my theosaurus for an appropriate term, and I cannot find one that fits without coming across in some manner that someone might find insulting.... Oooo Oooo Oooo, I know... "I'M WIERD and the thread is just not for me!"There! REFUTE THAT ONE! (PLEASE?) I think both of you make excellent points.When I first started here, I was intimidated by the fact that I am not in the industry (just a fan, so to speak) and so I would not know enough to post intelligently. After a few attempts at fitting in, I discovered that being myself made this forum far more enjoyable. Some people, I am sure, view me as a rabble rouser, maybe even a troll, and that's fine. I don't feel bad about it because I am speaking my mind and not trying to cause any trouble. I enjoy READING the threads that delve into actual industry related topics. These threads I will post in very seldom, because I am actually learning about something from people who know. Threads like this, sad to say, are few and far between. When these threads are started, they fall quickly by the wayside. As much as some people rag on certain forum members like FM and others, at least they offer the opportunity to discuss this industry in terms other than food or paint jobs. It's not to say that these are bad, it's just that I don't feel I have anything to learn from a forum that talks about hypothetical dinners and how the weather is. I certainly would not look to the forum as a source of intelligent discussion on railroading when these types of discussions prevail. For a magazine that tries to portray itself as an industry periodical, I do find it a bit of a stretch at times.I find the mass outrage over this almost has humerous as the parody. Like I said - making fun of an infant. It's as if you are picking on the runt of the litter and how dare you be so mean? I think it is telling how people who claim to be so accepting cannot accept the idea that some don't give much credence to the diner thread. I am sure the scars from this affair wil run deep for another 100 pages of the D.D. and C.S.
Semper Vaporo wrote: Bergie wrote: Semper Vaporo wrote: I don't object to anyone posting in the diner. But, as a relative newcomer to "this" forum, the first impression I got was that it was just plain wierd; 'with a capital wie', as Cat [from Red Dwarf] would say.You just hit my greatest fear right on the head. That fear is that a newcomer will stroll through our forum, see a bunch of off-topic, fictitious discussions about breakfast, and write our entire forum off as a joke / uninformative / childish, etc.Again, I perfectly understand the personal aspect of the things that go on in all of our coffee shop threads throughout our forum, but the first impression that they give to a newcomer - be it a railroad novice or a railroad industry professional - truly scares me. Please remember that this forum is tied to our magazine. For 67 years we've been THE magazine of railroading. With that in mind, when someone visits our Web site, we want our site to relay that image. Off topic discussions about what's for dinner don't exactly shed a positive light on the credibility that the magazine has tried to establish with the railroading industry for the past 67 years. I hope you understand that I want to protect the image of our magazine to all visitors to our site. Again, when a person finds our site and is completely new to the forum, they might look at the diner as childish and write off our site and our magazine at the same time. I don't want that to happen.That's the reasoning for my call for all parties, both diner and non-diner participants, to come closer to the middle. For diner members, continue on with your personal discussions that allow all of us to become friends, but lighten up on the off-topic (if not off the wall) discussions about what's for breakfast. In the same vein, I'd ask all non-diner participants to stop caring if others choose to use the diner as a way to get to know one another. Again, if both sides come closer to the middle, we'll all be better off.Thank you for your understanding.BergieI must clarify that I didn't think of the whole forum as being weird... just that one thread. And it was not necessarily a totally bad view of that thread... and it was not a reflection of the people that populate that thread... They have messages in other places and they seem like normal people (Oh dear, did I just insult them all!)I just knew immediately that I didn't know what was going on there, and that it must be some sort of "insiders" or "old hats" portion of the forum. I didn't know anybody on this forum and I still don't KNOW them.I have wondered if maybe the title of the thread could be a bit more descriptive... I now figure the C.S. means "Coffee Shop" but I don't know (or care, [sorry]) what the D.D. means... but then, even if I knew what they meant, it still does not tell me what to expect... it might take a book to describe the thread such that one could understand it, (and folk would argue about what is in the book, and few, if any, would read it anyway... how many people remember the "rules" associated with making any postings here?... how many actually read them?) So a more descriptive title is probably unattainable.I have been lurking on that thread for a day or so, just to try to get a feel on it again... sorry, I still find it a bit... hmmmmm.... well, I have been searching my theosaurus for an appropriate term, and I cannot find one that fits without coming across in some manner that someone might find insulting.... Oooo Oooo Oooo, I know... "I'M WIERD and the thread is just not for me!"There! REFUTE THAT ONE! (PLEASE?)
Bergie wrote: Semper Vaporo wrote: I don't object to anyone posting in the diner. But, as a relative newcomer to "this" forum, the first impression I got was that it was just plain wierd; 'with a capital wie', as Cat [from Red Dwarf] would say.You just hit my greatest fear right on the head. That fear is that a newcomer will stroll through our forum, see a bunch of off-topic, fictitious discussions about breakfast, and write our entire forum off as a joke / uninformative / childish, etc.Again, I perfectly understand the personal aspect of the things that go on in all of our coffee shop threads throughout our forum, but the first impression that they give to a newcomer - be it a railroad novice or a railroad industry professional - truly scares me. Please remember that this forum is tied to our magazine. For 67 years we've been THE magazine of railroading. With that in mind, when someone visits our Web site, we want our site to relay that image. Off topic discussions about what's for dinner don't exactly shed a positive light on the credibility that the magazine has tried to establish with the railroading industry for the past 67 years. I hope you understand that I want to protect the image of our magazine to all visitors to our site. Again, when a person finds our site and is completely new to the forum, they might look at the diner as childish and write off our site and our magazine at the same time. I don't want that to happen.That's the reasoning for my call for all parties, both diner and non-diner participants, to come closer to the middle. For diner members, continue on with your personal discussions that allow all of us to become friends, but lighten up on the off-topic (if not off the wall) discussions about what's for breakfast. In the same vein, I'd ask all non-diner participants to stop caring if others choose to use the diner as a way to get to know one another. Again, if both sides come closer to the middle, we'll all be better off.Thank you for your understanding.Bergie
Semper Vaporo wrote: I don't object to anyone posting in the diner. But, as a relative newcomer to "this" forum, the first impression I got was that it was just plain wierd; 'with a capital wie', as Cat [from Red Dwarf] would say.
I don't object to anyone posting in the diner. But, as a relative newcomer to "this" forum, the first impression I got was that it was just plain wierd; 'with a capital wie', as Cat [from Red Dwarf] would say.
You just hit my greatest fear right on the head. That fear is that a newcomer will stroll through our forum, see a bunch of off-topic, fictitious discussions about breakfast, and write our entire forum off as a joke / uninformative / childish, etc.
Again, I perfectly understand the personal aspect of the things that go on in all of our coffee shop threads throughout our forum, but the first impression that they give to a newcomer - be it a railroad novice or a railroad industry professional - truly scares me.
Please remember that this forum is tied to our magazine. For 67 years we've been THE magazine of railroading. With that in mind, when someone visits our Web site, we want our site to relay that image. Off topic discussions about what's for dinner don't exactly shed a positive light on the credibility that the magazine has tried to establish with the railroading industry for the past 67 years. I hope you understand that I want to protect the image of our magazine to all visitors to our site. Again, when a person finds our site and is completely new to the forum, they might look at the diner as childish and write off our site and our magazine at the same time. I don't want that to happen.
That's the reasoning for my call for all parties, both diner and non-diner participants, to come closer to the middle. For diner members, continue on with your personal discussions that allow all of us to become friends, but lighten up on the off-topic (if not off the wall) discussions about what's for breakfast. In the same vein, I'd ask all non-diner participants to stop caring if others choose to use the diner as a way to get to know one another. Again, if both sides come closer to the middle, we'll all be better off.
Thank you for your understanding.
Bergie
I must clarify that I didn't think of the whole forum as being weird... just that one thread. And it was not necessarily a totally bad view of that thread... and it was not a reflection of the people that populate that thread... They have messages in other places and they seem like normal people (Oh dear, did I just insult them all!)
I just knew immediately that I didn't know what was going on there, and that it must be some sort of "insiders" or "old hats" portion of the forum. I didn't know anybody on this forum and I still don't KNOW them.
I have wondered if maybe the title of the thread could be a bit more descriptive... I now figure the C.S. means "Coffee Shop" but I don't know (or care, [sorry]) what the D.D. means... but then, even if I knew what they meant, it still does not tell me what to expect... it might take a book to describe the thread such that one could understand it, (and folk would argue about what is in the book, and few, if any, would read it anyway... how many people remember the "rules" associated with making any postings here?... how many actually read them?) So a more descriptive title is probably unattainable.
I have been lurking on that thread for a day or so, just to try to get a feel on it again... sorry, I still find it a bit... hmmmmm.... well, I have been searching my theosaurus for an appropriate term, and I cannot find one that fits without coming across in some manner that someone might find insulting....
Oooo Oooo Oooo, I know... "I'M WIERD and the thread is just not for me!"
There! REFUTE THAT ONE! (PLEASE?)
I think both of you make excellent points.
When I first started here, I was intimidated by the fact that I am not in the industry (just a fan, so to speak) and so I would not know enough to post intelligently. After a few attempts at fitting in, I discovered that being myself made this forum far more enjoyable. Some people, I am sure, view me as a rabble rouser, maybe even a troll, and that's fine. I don't feel bad about it because I am speaking my mind and not trying to cause any trouble. I enjoy READING the threads that delve into actual industry related topics. These threads I will post in very seldom, because I am actually learning about something from people who know. Threads like this, sad to say, are few and far between. When these threads are started, they fall quickly by the wayside. As much as some people rag on certain forum members like FM and others, at least they offer the opportunity to discuss this industry in terms other than food or paint jobs. It's not to say that these are bad, it's just that I don't feel I have anything to learn from a forum that talks about hypothetical dinners and how the weather is. I certainly would not look to the forum as a source of intelligent discussion on railroading when these types of discussions prevail. For a magazine that tries to portray itself as an industry periodical, I do find it a bit of a stretch at times.
I find the mass outrage over this almost has humerous as the parody. Like I said - making fun of an infant. It's as if you are picking on the runt of the litter and how dare you be so mean? I think it is telling how people who claim to be so accepting cannot accept the idea that some don't give much credence to the diner thread. I am sure the scars from this affair wil run deep for another 100 pages of the D.D. and C.S.
I don't understand what is so bad about ONE Depot Diner. It's just one topic out of thousands. I just can't understand why so many people think that one topic is destroying the whole forum. You said, "I don't feel I have anything to learn from a forum that talks about hypothetical dinners and how the weather is." I'm sorry to say this, but the entire forum does not talk about those things. It is only in one topic that those subjects are discussed. Plus, I have learned a whole lot from this forum, so the Diner didn't destroy the forums, at least for me.
Willy
The original premise of the diner was fine, and I participated, willingly. Now, it's preoccupied with meals instead of railroads, and populated by menus, people going "yum-yum", crazy dogs marking their territory, and cats who go into the garden rather than staying in there.
If I wish to chat with my Forum friends (who are most assuredly not asinine!), I know how to do it. If my feelings have made enemies of some former friends, that's their problem--people who know me know that I don't turn on people without a very valid reason.
And now, I have bigger fish to fry. Good night.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
solzrules wrote:I think it is telling how people who claim to be so accepting cannot accept the idea that some don't give much credence to the diner thread.
I think it is telling how people who claim to be so accepting cannot accept the idea that some don't give much credence to the diner thread.
"Hypocrisy is the act of condemning another person, where the stated basis for the criticism is the breach of a rule which also applies to the critic."
blhanel wrote: Poppa_Zit wrote: blhanel wrote: I might add that, intended or not, labeling a thread as "asinine" implies that the participants are as well.Whoops. Don't add that at all. Labeling a thread as asinine (No. 1 definition: silly) does not imply anything about the participants -- that's you reading into something that's not there.A person could just as easily have said the participants are asinine. No one did, and it sounds like you are trying to put words in someone's mouth to escalate this, Brian. Let's not do that.I can certainly agree that the thread is a bit silly, or wierd with a capital "wie", but "asinine" is a bit too strong for me.See above. I wasn't trying to escalate anything- I was just trying to explain the reaction you're getting.But enough of that. Charlie, you kinda sorta know me- we were involved in the same project at work once; now if I could just clear away the CRS and cobwebs and remember which one...
Poppa_Zit wrote: blhanel wrote: I might add that, intended or not, labeling a thread as "asinine" implies that the participants are as well.Whoops. Don't add that at all. Labeling a thread as asinine (No. 1 definition: silly) does not imply anything about the participants -- that's you reading into something that's not there.A person could just as easily have said the participants are asinine. No one did, and it sounds like you are trying to put words in someone's mouth to escalate this, Brian. Let's not do that.I can certainly agree that the thread is a bit silly, or wierd with a capital "wie", but "asinine" is a bit too strong for me.See above.
blhanel wrote: I might add that, intended or not, labeling a thread as "asinine" implies that the participants are as well.
I might add that, intended or not, labeling a thread as "asinine" implies that the participants are as well.
Whoops. Don't add that at all. Labeling a thread as asinine (No. 1 definition: silly) does not imply anything about the participants -- that's you reading into something that's not there.
A person could just as easily have said the participants are asinine. No one did, and it sounds like you are trying to put words in someone's mouth to escalate this, Brian. Let's not do that.
I can certainly agree that the thread is a bit silly, or wierd with a capital "wie", but "asinine" is a bit too strong for me.
See above.
I wasn't trying to escalate anything- I was just trying to explain the reaction you're getting.
But enough of that. Charlie, you kinda sorta know me- we were involved in the same project at work once; now if I could just clear away the CRS and cobwebs and remember which one...
Brian: I understand the CRS and stuff... yes, I kinda sorta know you, and I started to write that in my missive, but I didn't want to drag my sentence out too long as I tend to just keep typing words after words after words and don't know when to put in a period so the sentence comes to a logocal end and nobody dies of suffocation reading my run-on sentences.
I fear that if we do meet again someday you and I won't be the persons we think we are remembering!
The diner places here are not for everyone.
I agree with Bergie. Th ey can create a poor wrong impression to newbees who join the group. When i first joined I started checking out the different places here. I saw the C.C. had many thousand views & thought it would be the best place to start. But no one was talking about railroading or RRs which is why I joined in the 1st place. I stayed away a few weeks & came back again.
I dont want to start trouble but have the people in the diner thought about starting their own forum? Then no one could tell tghem what to do and everybody would be happy. They would still be welcome here to talk about RRs and do the smalltalk and friendship conversations on theirown terms.
Dan
Brian (IA) http://blhanel.rrpicturearchives.net.
Bergie -
I think you're being a bit too dramatic about this. One topic where people discuss pretend breakfasts should not make a newcomer write the whole forum off as being uninformative or childish. If it does, that person has a very small sense of humor and takes life too seriously. There are so many railroad related topics that I can't imagine one off-topic thread making someone decide that the forum is a joke. I don't see any reason that the first impressions should scare you.
If a newcomer enters the forums and takes a look in the Diner and doesn't want to participate in a fake dinner or breakfast, then fine. They don't have to. They can ignore the Diner for the rest of their days in the forums and focus 100% on railroad related discussion. I know that many of our regular forum participants do just that and the Diner doesn't seem to bother them.
In addition, I think that the Trains Magazine website relays the image of "THE magazine of railroading" just fine. There is so much to explore and learn on the website that one topic in one of the many forums should not be any problem.
I rarely talk about food in the Diner anyway. I go in more for chatting with my friends, so if you feel that you absolutely must force us to get rid of the food discussions, then I'll respect your decision. However, I really don't think that continuing the Depot Diner the way it is right now is going to hurt the website or the magazine in any way, shape, or form at all.
CNW 6000 wrote: PZ I can accept that, personally. We can agree to disagree, right? We can agree on one thing I think: We all like trains from one aspect or another and we all bring something unique to the roundtable of discussion that this forum is. I've never worked for a RR, probably won't, and don't know the 'insider/technical' stuff that many on here do. I use humor/the Diner as a way to chat with those that know more than I do. The only thing I'll ask anyone who may know that stuff is that I (and others) don't know the stresses directly involved with your line of work. When we ask some questions it isn't to irritate you or tick you off. We just want info. Surely you knew when you went to work for the RR/whatever that there were people who admired (some more than others) what you did and want only to gain a little knowledge in talking with you.
PZ I can accept that, personally. We can agree to disagree, right? We can agree on one thing I think: We all like trains from one aspect or another and we all bring something unique to the roundtable of discussion that this forum is.
I've never worked for a RR, probably won't, and don't know the 'insider/technical' stuff that many on here do. I use humor/the Diner as a way to chat with those that know more than I do. The only thing I'll ask anyone who may know that stuff is that I (and others) don't know the stresses directly involved with your line of work. When we ask some questions it isn't to irritate you or tick you off. We just want info. Surely you knew when you went to work for the RR/whatever that there were people who admired (some more than others) what you did and want only to gain a little knowledge in talking with you.
I might add that, intended or not, labeling a thread as "asinine" implies that the participants are as well. I can certainly agree that the thread is a bit silly, or wierd with a capital "wie", but "asinine" is a bit too strong for me.
[Everyone doesn't like Rocky Road, some prefer Vanilla.]
...and some of us enjoy both. May I have coffee with that?
Rob
Mookie, if you carefully read what I wrote I never got personal with any individual in your diner or coffee shop or whatever. I never went to the diner and made fun of anyone. I have made no personal attacks on anyone there.
In response to my observation that the diner crowd is a clique, Ed's response is he believes that there may be a clique "here". Fine, but those in a clique are usually the last to realize that it exists.
Sorry, but I find the "diner breakfast" concept a bit silly and humorous, that's all --and apparently I'm not alone.
But that should not offend anyone.
Why are so many people so concerned about what I and some others think?
The diner/coffee shop gab-a-rama is not for me, and so I stay out and leave y'all alone.
Regarding people's likes and dislikes... that's why Baskin-Robbins sells 33 flavors. Everyone doesn't like Rocky Road, some prefer Vanilla. That's why Bergie subdivided the forums from a bunch of nooks into so many crannies. "Something for everyone" was the thought.
And while that may be an overly simplistic analogy, it is quite apt.
PZ - I am not unlike anyone else. I don't like to have my postings picked apart any more than anyone else. I try not to make fun of other people's postings unless they are so blatantly out of reason. I am not going to get into rock throwing over this, but I just don't care for postings that make fun of and snicker at the diner, one of the few places I can go and really "visit" with others.
I can't follow the postings on the stock market vs railroads, any eastern railroad beside NS or CSX, railroad monopolies, shortline review, etc, any more than I can tell you what is inside a diesel engine or how they really work or what size I need for my brand new whatever engine.
I ask questions and the usual 3 or 4 people give me answers. Otherwise I am pretty well ignored on this forum. I don't work/never have worked on any railroad. It is a hobby I took up too late in life to really get my arms around the whole thing. So I struggle with any information I can get.
I try to welcome strangers and regulars alike into the diner. And I can't have an opposing viewpoint, when I really don't have a train viewpoint in the first place. Other than the fact that I just flat out enjoy trains.
Mookie
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
"It's a clique, they are fiercely and mindlessly loyal to each other, they are well-organized, and they don't take kindly to strangers with opposing viewpoints."
I wrote this yesterday, and based on some of the above responses, I rest my case.
I expected somebody would show up to defend the defamed diner denizens. I guess in "diner world" there's no First Amendment or freedom of expression for outsiders. But I expressed those thoughts here, not in a coffee shop, but still they rushed to the defense.
As I said, Mookie, that's exactly why I don't go there. It ain't for me, but if you read my earlier post you'd see that I clarified that statement by saying "the diner isn't for everyone... to each their own, and those threads are endless and harmless..."
And Ed, your stooping so low as to make fun of my screen name doesn't become you. You chide us for acting like adolescents, then you do that? Ouch, man, that really hurts.
I would expect that type of thing from some of the dim bulbs that troll here, but not you, Ed. Hey, if you don't like what I write, just ignore my posts. I haven't ever made fun of you.
By the way -- I gather from your writing that you are a railroader. I also saw a piece you authored in Trains -- you did a commendable job. As a published author, you automatically become one of the guardians of the First Amendment, which doesn't doesn't toggle on and off based on the situation.
Bergie, you just run these forums the way you see fit. There are plenty of us who'll take your back.
Now I have to sign off for awhile. I don't want to burn the gooseberry pie in the oven.
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