What happened to the lost art of engineers waving?

[zugmann]

It can also be awkward to give a wave if the window is closed. A lot easier when the windows are open.  Now why don't we always open the window?  A few reasons:

 1. A/C.  The air conditioner on most units is not the greatest.  So by opening the windows, you release the cold.  Selfish?  Yeah, sure.  But it is our work environment. 

2. Noise.  Going around a curve you get the nice screeching noise.   Or I suspect you hang near a road crossing.  I know most crews I've been with shut the windows when approaching crossings.  The reason is simple; we really do not feel like listening to the bell and horn breaking our ear drums.  Sometimes we are forced to, depending on the engine, horn location, AC, etc... but this is our work environment, and we do like to keep it a little more sensible.  Nor do we need the wind noise at all times - it can make it hard to hear the radio.

3. If there's another train coming alongside us - I close the window.  I do not need a fresh coat of coal dust or dirt on my person.

4. Some windows are a pain to open.  

5. Sometiems, I just don't feel like opening the window.  

The argument on this thread came from people who think just because a railroader doesn't return a wave - it means that railroader is unfit to be a railroader. 

 

[TimChgo9]

It is a simple subject.  So that lets those of us with simple minds participate, those with no railroad experience, those with railroad experience, those of us that are opinionated and those that aren't.  It isn't a true "railroad topic" - it is a human interest topic.  And while we have a few questionables, I think we all fall in that category....

Well, I thought I was done, but Mookie, you have motivated me to add some more, ma'am (BTW I didn't mean to infer that anyone here has a simple mind....unless I am referring to myself..)

The problem I am having with this thread is the fact that there are those who act mortally offended if they don't get a wave.  LC, and a couple of other railroaders expressed very good reasons why they don't wave, or don't wave every time... for Pete's sake these guys are working and it seems that some others here just don't get it.   Waves are a bonus in my opinion, and if I don't get one, that's fine too. My kids usually get one when they are with me, but, even if they don't I don't think they notice.  Besides that, when I am out at the tracks, I am generally spending time with my kids, and I am not there to get a wave from the engineer

The bottom line here is, there was a question, an explanation, and then; the vitriol..... which was really unnecessary...  Did I throw in my .02?  of course, but then, I get aggravated with conversations/forum threads where no one seems to be listening/reading, and not getting the point.   When that happens, all other conversation,or contributions to the discussion/thread become almost superfluous as certain participants only seem to want to focus the slight, perceived or real, and on the other side, the participants wind up on the defensive against what they perceive is an uwarranted assault on their job, which is tantamout to an assault on their character. To that end, the insults, and the flames start, and the whole thread becomes pointless.  Why engineers wave, or don't wave was pretty much settled in the first couple of posts, in my opinion.  

[Willy2]

I can understand why people on both sides of this issue are frustrated. What I don't understand is why such hatred seems to be flowing from nearly everyone in this thread. I don't think it was meant to bring about such anger. This is my final post on this topic. Keep on fighting if you want, but I'm done with this foolishness.

[Semper Vaporo]

So let's see....... In the 30 minutes it would take them to read through this thread, the non railfan could establish this:

1. Most Railroaders Appear To Be Jerks

2. Railfans are whiny cry-babys who wail eveytime the jerk in the cab doesn't wave

(I am indifferent on this subject, just making sure you all know what kind of a picture you're painting for yourself!)

 Educate yourself 4884bigboy before you spout off with opinions which have no basis.  

Lord, here I go trying to bring a bit of humor into this thread and I'm met with guys throwing dirt at my face. Why do I even bother........

I understood your humor.  Except maybe I think you got the descriptions backwards... railroaders are the whiny cry-babies and railfans are the jerks.  And then you had the utter audacity to state that ONLY "most" railroaders are one thing, but, by leaving out any adjective indicating quantity, you imply that ALL railfans are the other.  Never mind that you have any possibility of being right about it... by leaving an "out" for one group those members can take solice in that theirself is not included in the description, but the other group has to squirm and assume that the quantifier was misplaced.

I do wonder how such a simple question posed by the original missive has degraded into such vitriol.  I saw it as simple, anyway, and in no way did I see it as an insult or a whiny crybaby question.  The question was whether others had seen a decrease in friendly waves from railroaders.  It could be that the perception is wrong, maybe there has been no decrease.  Maybe the person asking the question is behaving differently than they used to and this is the cause... maybe there is no change at all and it is only a bout of nostalgia creating the impression.

But as far as what has been said in this thread... I wonder if maybe some of the messages have been edited AFTER responses have been made... I seem to have missed some of the insults that have been responded to... some posts lack any sense of context for me and a response after it seems to have taken great offense when to me there were none, even quite the opposite, some of what I read was in agreement with what the apparent insulted one took offense about.

To quote the fellow in L.A. that was beaten by the police, which then caused rioting over it... he said; "Can't we all just get along?"

Obviously the answer is "No, we can't".  Geese migrate, Lemmings plunge into the sea, Snakes molt, Cicada come out every 17 years, Frogs croak, Humans seek insults, and Crickets chirp.

(Now watch somebody dissagree with me!)

ambiguas in vulgum spargere voces

[Mookie]

It is a simple subject.  So that lets those of us with simple minds participate, those with no railroad experience, those with railroad experience, those of us that are opinionated and those that aren't.  It isn't a true "railroad topic" - it is a human interest topic.  And while we have a few questionables, I think we all fall in that category....

[TimChgo9]

I don't even understand how, or why, this thread got started.

The amazing thing is the fact that it ran for eight pages.....

If you want to know what I think about it.....go back and read my posts...otherwise, I am done with this thread...

[Anonymous]

So let's see....... In the 30 minutes it would take them to read through this thread, the non railfan could establish this:

1. Most Railroaders Appear To Be Jerks

2. Railfans are whiny cry-babys who wail eveytime the jerk in the cab doesn't wave

(I am indifferent on this subject, just making sure you all know what kind of a picture you're painting for yourself!)

 Educate yourself 4884bigboy before you spout off with opinions which have no basis.  

Lord, here I go trying to bring a bit of humor into this thread and I'm met with guys throwing dirt at my face. Why do I even bother........

[choochin3]

The CSX crews around here have coined the local fans as the St. Denis Papparattzi (sp).

I don't know if they are poking fun,or are annoyed with us.

Really I don't care,I take it as a compliment.(we call ourselves the Relay Retards)

Just a bunch of guys sitting in lawn chairs in the parking lot waving at trains.

If a crew doesn't return the wave no big whoop.Though they usually do.

 

Carl T.

 

[wabash1]

Get off your high horse, sir. So, I should tell my dispatcher: "sorry, i didn't copy that speed restriction - because I had to wave at some foamer taking fifteen million photos of this crappy engine.... please repeat"

 

 

I never said you must return 100% of all waves. But the predominant attitude heere from crewmembers appears to be, "Screw you," as this post also indicates.

 

well to you yes i couldnt have said it better. 

Sorry to hear that. I don't know you, so I won't return the insult you on an anonymous forum.

It seems to me you been insulting people and bashing them from your first post on. Now i dont haft to defend my actions as i am entitled to my  opinion. everything i have posted is true, there is 1 more thing i left out. With the way the sue happy world is If you are in an accident while doing anything other than running that engine you as the engineer will be named in the law suit and will defend yourself, in otherwords  if the engineer is talking on the cell phone and hits someone then he will be sued and be aressted for manslaughter, a lawyer can and will get your cell phone records  if you was on the phone during this time they got ya. Oh i can hear you now saying they cant do that or thats bull.... well all i haft to say is talk to the guys its happening to now, also the same thing can happen in car wrecks.  why did i bring that part up is if the engineer has his attention anywhere other than running the engine the lawyers will say that he was looking for people to wave at doing other things than running his train,   Like most railroaders on here have stated we dont wave at everyone the people i wave at have earned it, but i wont give up my to please you. no mater how much they want to  cry and whine about i didnt wave. and i am not going to go broke throwing cheese to all the foamers either .  

[Midnight Railroader]

Get off your high horse, sir. So, I should tell my dispatcher: "sorry, i didn't copy that speed restriction - because I had to wave at some foamer taking fifteen million photos of this crappy engine.... please repeat"

 

 

I never said you must return 100% of all waves. But the predominant attitude heere from crewmembers appears to be, "Screw you," as this post also indicates.

 

well to you yes i couldnt have said it better. 

Sorry to hear that. I don't know you, so I won't return the insult you on an anonymous forum.

[Midnight Railroader]

if your not on railroad property there should not be any problems now should there but the same guys who say they are not on railroad property had to get where they are by crossing railroad property.  

No.

That's not true at all.

[wabash1]

Get off your high horse, sir. So, I should tell my dispatcher: "sorry, i didn't copy that speed restriction - because I had to wave at some foamer taking fifteen million photos of this crappy engine.... please repeat"

 

 

I never said you must return 100% of all waves. But the predominant attitude heere from crewmembers appears to be, "Screw you," as this post also indicates.

 

well to you yes i couldnt have said it better. 

[wabash1]

other wise be greatfull i am not calling in on you.

Since I'm not on railroad property, you'd be wasting your cops' time by doing so.

if you think of taking a picture better not i hate defending my actions caught on camera,

If you didn't do things that need to be "defended," you wouldn't have to worry about this.

Your attitude is part of the reason railroads enjoy the absymal rep they do among the public. Good work.

if your not on railroad property there should not be any problems now should there but the same guys who say they are not on railroad property had to get where they are by crossing railroad property.  and as far as defending myself i get out of it always  but you take a pic of me with out saftey glasses on  smoking is another one things like this is what gets a trainmasters attention,  but i really dont care what you think. or the other 15 guys i turned in and had run off . they was on company property i told them they was trespassing  one guy said what ever and a few exsplatives, i drove on to the yard office they called the police and they was removed 20 min later i went by them on the engine laughing at them standing on public street. they was not happy.  

[Midnight Railroader]

So let's see....... In the 30 minutes it would take them to read through this thread, the non railfan could establish this:

1. Most Railroaders Appear To Be Jerks

2. Railfans are whiny cry-babys who wail eveytime the jerk in the cab doesn't wave

(I am indifferent on this subject, just making sure you all know what kind of a picture you're painting for yourself!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

[csxengineer98]

To have a wave not returned is akin to extending your hand for a handshake and having that hand ignored.  The perception is its more of a negative reflection on the crewman's character than anything, especially when they just look at you.  Rude, perhaps.  But its not the end of the world, and certainly nothing to get upset over.  Just makes them look like miserable people who hate their jobs.  Indeed, its true that years ago crews seemed more friendly.

 Well there are quite a few people I would not shake hands with, no matter what the occasion, professional or otherwise.  

 I will wave at families and little children.   I will wave at folks I know.   I will not wave at some dufus with 10,000 railroad pins on his hat, 256 patches on his vest and six cameras around his neck.   The same type has green teeth and looks like he ain't showered in six months, with snots hanging out his nose.  

   

 

 

 

you left out standing next to a white luma with a light bar on the roof and a box of half eaten dougnuts on the hood and powedered suger all over the 6 cameras that they are wareing around there neck...lol...

csx engineer 

[Mookie]

Most railroaders will wave.  I waved at the two railfans I saw this morning.  Now whether they were able to see me through the tinted windows is beyond me... but if they didn't I hope they don't think I'm some rude obnoxious crew member who can't walk and chew gum.  

  And therein lies a lot of the problem.  I sit right below the cab on the engineers side (legally back) and I couldn't tell you if there was a person in that seat waving or not unless the window is open.  The windows and the glare off same make it impossible to see if someone waved or not.  I did have one engineer actually open his window to wave at us - and he waved like we were old friends.  I hope he reads this and knows he made quite an impression!

Mookie

[RRKen]

So let's see....... In the 30 minutes it would take them to read through this thread, the non railfan could establish this:

1. Most Railroaders Appear To Be Jerks

2. Railfans are whiny cry-babys who wail eveytime the jerk in the cab doesn't wave

(I am indifferent on this subject, just making sure you all know what kind of a picture you're painting for yourself!)

 Educate yourself 4884bigboy before you spout off with opinions which have no basis.  

[Anonymous]

A question for you engineers on here....on a typical run, how many railfans do you encounter as you run your train?......how many "regular" people do you encounter?.....how many waves do you get per run?

 As to the question of being too busy, there was an engineer on the CN that would actually take off his orange vest and hang it out the window to ruin any pics or video that are taken of the train, and it was even worse when the WC units were being phased out. He even taped one to the handrails.

Paul

there is no way to sit here and tell you how many "railfans and regular" people you come accross on a trip.. simply becouse there are to many factors that come into play..weather..time of day.. time of year.. ext ext ext..  that affect when and where people are in relation to a train when a train comes through...

as far as the WC unit.. how do you know he did it? was it yellow tape around the handrails where the steps where at..it could have been someone from the shop that is saying that unit is unsafe to go up that way and taped off the handrails to keep a crewman from going up it or into a cab that isnt safe to be in for what ever reason....cant pin point that on him without seeing him doing it...

csx engineer 

 

It was a vest that was taped to the handrails....the engineer is very well known about his dislike of railfans.....havent seen him on the Neenah Sub lately tho

Little does he know that eventually it will become a "trophy prize" among local railfans to get pictures of the unit being ran by the vest wielding engineer, and his trick will have back-fired!

[Anonymous]

So let's see....... In the 30 minutes it would take them to read through this thread, the non railfan could establish this:

1. Most Railroaders Appear To Be Jerks

2. Railfans are whiny cry-babys who wail eveytime the jerk in the cab doesn't wave

(I am indifferent on this subject, just making sure you all know what kind of a picture you're painting for yourself!)

[Soo 6604]

A question for you engineers on here....on a typical run, how many railfans do you encounter as you run your train?......how many "regular" people do you encounter?.....how many waves do you get per run?

 As to the question of being too busy, there was an engineer on the CN that would actually take off his orange vest and hang it out the window to ruin any pics or video that are taken of the train, and it was even worse when the WC units were being phased out. He even taped one to the handrails.

Paul

there is no way to sit here and tell you how many "railfans and regular" people you come accross on a trip.. simply becouse there are to many factors that come into play..weather..time of day.. time of year.. ext ext ext..  that affect when and where people are in relation to a train when a train comes through...

as far as the WC unit.. how do you know he did it? was it yellow tape around the handrails where the steps where at..it could have been someone from the shop that is saying that unit is unsafe to go up that way and taped off the handrails to keep a crewman from going up it or into a cab that isnt safe to be in for what ever reason....cant pin point that on him without seeing him doing it...

csx engineer 

 

It was a vest that was taped to the handrails....the engineer is very well known about his dislike of railfans.....havent seen him on the Neenah Sub lately tho

[Semper Vaporo]

WELL... I got some results from some semi-scientific experiments I have been conducting for the last few months.

Whenever I drive to visit my daughter, I have to drive a 15 mile section of 2-lane road.  I have been leaning forward and holding my right hand up, with fingers spread and the biggest grin on my face I can muster.  I then waggle my hand slowly left and right to see if I can get any motorists coming the other way to wave back at me.

STUPID and SILLY to be SURE... but "I DOOD IT ANYWAY"!

I realize that with two cars approaching each other, one (mine) at about 55-mph and the other (the motorist coming AT me) at any speed they think they can get away with in the 55-mph zone, there is little time for the other motorist to react to the goon facing them waving like an idiot.

BUT!

On average, I get one wave back out of about 15 cars.  I count it a great success if I can get close to 10-percent positive reaction.

Now the interesting thing is that the waves are not equally distributed amongst all the types of vehicles coming the other way.

I get waves most often from large OLD semi-trailer trucks.  Drivers of newer looking trucks do not wave back.  Drivers of one piece trucks and vans do not wave back.

The second most common wave-backer is a farmer (young or old) in an old beat-up pickup truck.  The more beatup the truck, the more likely the driver will wave back.  A woman in the passenger seat will also wave if the driver waves.  Nobody in a NEW pickup will wave.

The next most likely driver to wave back will be in a newer compact car and will, invariably, be a VERY pretty, younger, member of the fair sex.  And she will also SMILE sweetly and her eyes will "sparkle".  They will even interrupt their cell-phone conversation to wave back!

All other classes of motorist I see will NOT wave back.  Men in business suits, older women, families in sedans, stationwagons or SUV's... none will wave.

I don't know if that is because that type of person is not "looking" at the weirdos coming there way in the other lane or if there is some other cause.

---

Now, as to waving at trains.  I used to wave at every train; I'd just hold my arm up and give a bit of a "boyscout" salute of sorts.  About 2 years ago I noticed that EVERY time I waved, the train came to an emergency stop, right in front of me!  I cannot tell if it was "my" wave that caused the engineer to pull the plug, or if maybe I woke him up and he saw a red light in front of him, or some car dynamited.  Then never walked the train to look at anything.  I'd just hear the brakes being pumped up for a couple of minutes and they would leave.  Sometimes I would hear on my scanner that they had stopped and were going to proceed.  No other explanation.

But it got me thinking...

How does the engineer know whether I am being "friendly" or am trying to warn him of something going on?  How do you tell, when all you see is an arm sticking out the window of a car with the fingers spread and shaking violently about?

I decided to stop waving at the engineers from now on.  Not to be "unfriendly" but to limit my impact on their busy job.  I will smile and nod (slightly) and if they wave, I'll smile bigger and attempt to get my nurons in gear to move my arm before they get out of sight, but I am going to let them do the initiation of a wave.

 

[MrKLUKE]

.

[JT22CW]

[Anonymous]

Mom....He's waving at me again!

Am not!

Are too!

Am not!

Are too.....I'm Tellin'..................

Mooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm........................

 

[Andrew Falconer]

The crew members might be too busy and tired to wave.

Andrew

[RRKen]

To have a wave not returned is akin to extending your hand for a handshake and having that hand ignored.  The perception is its more of a negative reflection on the crewman's character than anything, especially when they just look at you.  Rude, perhaps.  But its not the end of the world, and certainly nothing to get upset over.  Just makes them look like miserable people who hate their jobs.  Indeed, its true that years ago crews seemed more friendly.

 Well there are quite a few people I would not shake hands with, no matter what the occasion, professional or otherwise.  

 I will wave at families and little children.   I will wave at folks I know.   I will not wave at some dufus with 10,000 railroad pins on his hat, 256 patches on his vest and six cameras around his neck.   The same type has green teeth and looks like he ain't showered in six months, with snots hanging out his nose.  

 

And I could care less your perception, whether it is myself, or my brethren.   It does not count in my world.  At the end of the day, I have to look myself in the mirror and account for my behavior, and what I am.   To do anything less would be dishonest.  

 Next, as anyone who knows me can tell, I do not hate my job.   Quite the contrary.   I do not like those who just because of their assumed alliance with my profession, expects me to treat them as long lost relatives, or know more than I do about my industry.     There are many railfans who I know, who know a hell of a lot more about railroading, both past and present than I could ever dream of.  I hold a great deal of respect for them.    I also know there are a lot of others who are within the industry, also 'fans' and I hold respect towards them as well.   There are some in the railfan media who I respect and enjoy their work.     J. David Ingles on the other hand, could offer his hand to me, and I would flat out ignore it as if he did not exist (see if he appreciates the same treatment he gave many of us through the years and to this day).    

 The crews I work with today, especially the old heads, behave the same way I do.   We do not owe the railfan community anything just because of their affiliation.  

 

I will say it again to be perfectly clear, I have a lot of other things going on in the cab to be concerned with waving at every tom, dick, and harry that lines the tracks.    We get a lot of folks who drive into the terminal, and will ask questions as well as folks on Operation Lifesaver trains.   I take a great deal of time to answer them and listen.   

 

I will offer one other prime example.   A few years ago, I ran a train up the branch with some supposedly unusual units.  These units were not air conditioned and we left the doors open to catch what little draft we could on that hot day.   But, the comments from some on a local board were less than charitable.    "How come they left the doors open? They ruined my shot."   Those are the kind who never consider how much hotter that steel box is inside than it is outside.   All they care about is that their photos were ruined.   

 

And you blame us for being curmudgeons? 

[rambo1]

I always find the crews wave back alot .rambo1..........

[loathar]

LC and CSX engineer hit on a good point ... if you want the engineers to wave at you all the time , go railfanning with hot women !!

LOL! Yeah! Like THAT will happen. Waving at choo choo's. I hear that's what all the hot booty likes to do these days.

WOW! Seven pages over waving. I guess people will argue over anything. I wonder if the engineers stay focused on their job when they pass that bar where everyone moons them?

[CopCarSS]

As an aside to this thread, what's up with the title? I'm not exactly sure how waving qualifies as an art form. Are train crews being given points for technical execution in addition to style points? I could see the title being the lost "practice", the lost "communication", even the lost "courtesy" (at least to some thread participants)...but the lost art?

[Anonymous]

when there near a crossing most are looking

 out for "idiots" , note I use the term generaly, and cannot wave. what would you have them do?  wave or do thier job

 

Not that I really care if they wave or not, but how does waving for 1 second disrupt the job they're doing?  Are you suggesting engineers/conductors can't walk and chew gum at the same time? 

If waving is considered a disruption of their job duties, I suppose they probably shouldn't take a hit off of a cigarette or a sip from a cup or bottle of soda.  

didnt you read point #6 of one of my perviouse postings? that sums it all up...

csx engineer 

 

No.  The person I responded to posted on the first page.  I wasn't about to sift through the next five pages of posts to see if someone had a relative or similar thought as mine.