MOJAX wrote: beegle55 wrote: I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers! -beegle55This thread has been very interesting and thanks for starting it. When did you (beegle55) change your mind about DCC?
beegle55 wrote: I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers! -beegle55
I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers!
-beegle55
This thread has been very interesting and thanks for starting it. When did you (beegle55) change your mind about DCC?
(I guess I'll try to get the thread back to what its suppost to be, instead of some people calling others "childish" by being "childish"...)
Hey MOJAX, I decided to stick with DC for now because of a limited budget becoming even more limited. I am getting my drivers liscense May 14, and I have put back most of my money into a savings account for the summer. Next summer I am planning on getting a job, so DCC might be of interest then. I like DC and DCC sounds really interesting as well, so I am open to all options of the hobby. Thanks for the post.
AntonioFP45 wrote: clang wrote: Antonio FP, isn't there anything else you have to do besides police this threadYou can always go help the ebayers maybe even get a life.Paul three, I posted a smiley so that makes it okay right Hello Clang,I actually have a pretty good life. I don't police anything. Bergie does that. Were you not the flaming poster on the Atlas forum? I enjoy posting and interacting with fellow railfans and model railroaders that are good and decent folks. Whether on the web, or face to face. Hopefully you'll eventually get back into that category someday soon. Is there anything else that you do besides troll threads and disrespect fellow model railroaders with your childish, posts? BUT--- Unlike you, I do try to keep it encouraging and positive. Exchanging info and opinions should be enjoyable. BTW: Flaming others without having been provoked is the equivilent of swimming in a cesspool full of garbage. It's saddening that you jumped in head first. Why don't you shower the trashy attitude off and join in with the rest of us? Even with disagreements, the members here are a super good crew.
clang wrote: Antonio FP, isn't there anything else you have to do besides police this threadYou can always go help the ebayers maybe even get a life.Paul three, I posted a smiley so that makes it okay right
Antonio FP, isn't there anything else you have to do besides police this thread
You can always go help the ebayers maybe even get a life.
Paul three, I posted a smiley so that makes it okay right
Hello Clang,
I actually have a pretty good life. I don't police anything. Bergie does that. Were you not the flaming poster on the Atlas forum?
I enjoy posting and interacting with fellow railfans and model railroaders that are good and decent folks. Whether on the web, or face to face. Hopefully you'll eventually get back into that category someday soon. Is there anything else that you do besides troll threads and disrespect fellow model railroaders with your childish, posts?
BUT--- Unlike you, I do try to keep it encouraging and positive. Exchanging info and opinions should be enjoyable.
BTW: Flaming others without having been provoked is the equivilent of swimming in a cesspool full of garbage. It's saddening that you jumped in head first. Why don't you shower the trashy attitude off and join in with the rest of us?
Even with disagreements, the members here are a super good crew.
Calling people childish isn't flaming???? This is a general disscusion forum with a general disscusion thread on it and its for general disscusion for DC users, which means your posts are welcome, however flaming is unappriecated. Your replys seem to lead to flaming, so why start them just to create problems? Can't we just talk about the hobby from the viewpoint of DC power. Thats all I wanted this thread for, just to see who uses DC and what some of us DC users do to help our layout, and to discuss other things involved with our layouts. I don't think you 'police' this thread, but you sure invite some pretty heated replies. Calling people childish isn't encouraging nor positive! And yes I agree, this forum has some great members that shine through all of our disagreements, so maybe this post is just another reply to disagree upon...
beegle55 wrote: Can't we just talk about the hobby from the viewpoint of DC power. Thats all I wanted this thread for, just to see who uses DC and what some of us DC users do to help our layout, and to discuss other things involved with our layouts. -beegle55
Can't we just talk about the hobby from the viewpoint of DC power. Thats all I wanted this thread for, just to see who uses DC and what some of us DC users do to help our layout, and to discuss other things involved with our layouts. -beegle55
Hello, My name is Jim and I still use DC (polite applause).
And now without further adieu, here are the top ten reasons I have not switched to DCC:
There, I feel better (End of DC anonymous meeting).
Too funny....
Jim
Peace and High Greens
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Paul3 wrote: clang,You're trolling yet again.el-capitan,Atlas O locos are low amp engines for O scale, which explains why NCE's ATL-O decoders are only $40 ea. But you still haven't explained decoders like the Digtrax DG583S...these can be had for as little as $52 ea. when bought in a 10-pack (at Tony's, otherwise, they are $56 ea. for one or $53 ea. for 4). The DG583S has a 5 amp continuous rating with a 10amp peak, and they can control 8 different functions (for lights, etc.). This decoder has been on the market for 4 years. Do you have O-scale locos that can pull over 5 amps continuous, & over 10 amps peak? If so, your point stands. If not, then my point that you don't have to spend $100 per loco for DCC in O-scale is correct, and you are wrong.
clang,You're trolling yet again.
el-capitan,Atlas O locos are low amp engines for O scale, which explains why NCE's ATL-O decoders are only $40 ea. But you still haven't explained decoders like the Digtrax DG583S...these can be had for as little as $52 ea. when bought in a 10-pack (at Tony's, otherwise, they are $56 ea. for one or $53 ea. for 4). The DG583S has a 5 amp continuous rating with a 10amp peak, and they can control 8 different functions (for lights, etc.). This decoder has been on the market for 4 years. Do you have O-scale locos that can pull over 5 amps continuous, & over 10 amps peak? If so, your point stands. If not, then my point that you don't have to spend $100 per loco for DCC in O-scale is correct, and you are wrong.
I get my information on Decoders from several of my friends that have converted Oscale open frame locos to DCC. If all of them are wrong or could be getting a better deal than I appologize. But I will still take their experienced word over your inexperienced word.
Paul3 wrote: Shhh, don't tell anyone in my HO scale RR club, but I own three O-scale locos... An Intermountain GP9 (with a Atlas FP7 drive), and two Weaver RS-3's (with P&D drives). Not DCC...yet. But that's the plan.
Shhh, don't tell anyone in my HO scale RR club, but I own three O-scale locos... An Intermountain GP9 (with a Atlas FP7 drive), and two Weaver RS-3's (with P&D drives). Not DCC...yet. But that's the plan.
So you have no actual experience with owning or converting open frame motor O scale engines yet you come on here acting like an expert.
Paul3 wrote: You did say on the older DCC thread, in regards to collisions, "With the current DCC system there is no protection from this." That sounds like "unavoidable" to me. The fact is that there can be protection from collisions with DCC...it just takes more time and money to do so.
You did say on the older DCC thread, in regards to collisions, "With the current DCC system there is no protection from this." That sounds like "unavoidable" to me. The fact is that there can be protection from collisions with DCC...it just takes more time and money to do so.
I don't have any protection from head-on collisions when I drive my truck down the road but yet I manage to avoid them.
Paul3 wrote: Why did you state that there is no protection from collisions with DCC when there can be? Why did you state that block detection for your 1000 block club layout would cost $30,000 for when it can be done for $7,560 with DCC? Or when you stated that your 30-block home layout would cost $1000 for block detection when it could be done for $240 with DCC? Why did you imply that DCC could not offer Wi-Fi dispatching from your back yard, and not offer on-screen point and click throwing of track switches, and not offer on-screen occupancy? (which can all be done with DCC right now)
Why did you state that there is no protection from collisions with DCC when there can be? Why did you state that block detection for your 1000 block club layout would cost $30,000 for when it can be done for $7,560 with DCC? Or when you stated that your 30-block home layout would cost $1000 for block detection when it could be done for $240 with DCC? Why did you imply that DCC could not offer Wi-Fi dispatching from your back yard, and not offer on-screen point and click throwing of track switches, and not offer on-screen occupancy? (which can all be done with DCC right now)
ALL of this taken completely out of context.
Again since you seem to have read all my posts you will notice that a helpful DCCer explained how block control could be done with DCC. Unfortunately it would require completely rewiring the blocks on my layout. Anything is possible with enough money and time.
$240 for block detection? really? Does it detect trains that are not moving? If there is a cheaper way of doing it please share but I was simply quoting one suppliers price that has a unit that is able to detect stopped trains. I never said this was the only way.
If all this on-screen stuff can be done with DCC then why havn't I seen it at my LHS? Again if you read the entire post I want all of this in a simple plug and play system. I never said it can't be done.
Paul3 wrote: If you have no interest in arguing this, you aren't doing a very convincing job of it. Most times, when people have no interest in something, they ignore it.
If you have no interest in arguing this, you aren't doing a very convincing job of it. Most times, when people have no interest in something, they ignore it.
I have issues with people who do not have the same experience as me in Oscale telling me I am wrong. Call it a flaw.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
AntonioFP45 wrote: Beegle, You're certianly not helping. I thought we moved on, but I'll go ahead and reply here. If you read carefully, the "childish" remark refers to the poster's behavior itself, which indeed is very childish. That's not rocket science. I don't invite any flaming posts at all. YOU invited disagreement and discord when you make comments referring to "DCC Snipers". Yet you imply that I'm a flamer?? You're upset with me because I responded to your unprovoked statement. Come on, Beegle! Are you serious? When I screw up, I'm the first to apologize. When I'm attacked, I will respond. If you read back over this thread my posts have been quite civil except when you made the "Flaming" post about DCC snipers and of course, Clang's flaming torpedo post. The two of you are fellow modelers.....Yet, you chose to get nasty, bottom line. ( Go figure )If you take my "suggestions" about being civil as "childish" then so be it. I'm a DC modeler that's switching over, so that's why this thread was interesting to me. Before accusing someone of an infraction or offense, please think about it and make sure you didn't do the same first. I hope this caps the head and we can cruise forward.Peace and High Greens
Beegle,
You're certianly not helping. I thought we moved on, but I'll go ahead and reply here.
If you read carefully, the "childish" remark refers to the poster's behavior itself, which indeed is very childish. That's not rocket science.
I don't invite any flaming posts at all. YOU invited disagreement and discord when you make comments referring to "DCC Snipers". Yet you imply that I'm a flamer?? You're upset with me because I responded to your unprovoked statement. Come on, Beegle! Are you serious? When I screw up, I'm the first to apologize. When I'm attacked, I will respond. If you read back over this thread my posts have been quite civil except when you made the "Flaming" post about DCC snipers and of course, Clang's flaming torpedo post. The two of you are fellow modelers.....Yet, you chose to get nasty, bottom line. ( Go figure )
If you take my "suggestions" about being civil as "childish" then so be it. I'm a DC modeler that's switching over, so that's why this thread was interesting to me.
Before accusing someone of an infraction or offense, please think about it and make sure you didn't do the same first.
I hope this caps the head and we can cruise forward.
1) So what if we are being childish?? Do have to call the actions "childish," (which makes you look like the child in the first place with all the name calling.
2) You completely misunderstood the "DCC Sniper" gig. That was, I guess you could say, an inside joke started on the very first page of this thread way back when. If you had read from the beginning and had fully understood what I meant by "DCC Sniper's," this entire mix-up would have never happened. I'm not blaming you, just be sure you know what you are talking about from the beginning. I don't in fact blame you for the mistake, because I too skip to various parts of multi-page threads without reading ever single post word for word.
3)I didn't imply that you were a flamer. I don't think anyone has truely flamed on this thread yet, and hopefully they won't.
4) The DCC sniper post wasn't flaming, I and a few others at least thought of it as light humor associated with the beginning of this thread.
5)Why bring Clang into this? I understand that some flaming (Me and you might have different definitions of flaming) might occurred between you and him, but not on this forum, or this thread, so why are you even mentioning all of that?
6)Hmmm, nasty, bottom line?? Lack of a better term, maybe? And go figure, What the... never mind...
7)In conclusion, I didn't accuse you of anything, I just implied that your statements might be offensive to some. Do you seriously think I've been flaming on here?? That is the least thing on my mind right now...... Anyway, lets put all of this behind us and let the thread return to its usual broadcast???
I fully agree, Beegle. I'm sorry I misunderstood your post and intent.
Yes, let's go forward.
Take care
Alright Antonio, sounds good to me.
Soo Line fan wrote: Hello, My name is Jim and I still use DC (polite applause). And now without further adieu, here are the top ten reasons I have not switched to DCC:I have 40 engines to change over. Motor isolation is not the issue, as the open frames have been replaced with NWSL and PPW can motors. I have a double track main. One train circles the layout and I switch with the other. It is not a club; I operate alone. 1-2 trains are plenty to run. Sound is annoying to me. I happen to like peace and quiet. My layout is pretty much finished, in regards to track and wiring. The supposed "complicated wiring" (whatever that is) has been completed.I want to see if another system comes out within the next 5 yrs. In the meantime the prices will drop. The cost of decoders and a good system is going to be substantial. My Scottrade account needs money more than the layout.The only time I touch a block is to do a cross over move or come out of the yard and engine terminal.I am not a jump on the bandwagon person or a sheep. Its my hobby, I will participate the way I choose, not the way others want me to.I am having a great time right now with my current system, that's the main reason for a hobby, is it not?There, I feel better (End of DC anonymous meeting). Too funny....Jim
Hey Jim, you have a good list of reasons why you are in the DC club. I agree with number 6 alot :P, it seems like every time I make an investment into a piece of new technology, something else comes out that I want more... I guess that will always happen though. Anywho, I think it will be interesting in what develops over the next few years.
beegle55 wrote: MOJAX wrote: beegle55 wrote: I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers! -beegle55This thread has been very interesting and thanks for starting it. When did you (beegle55) change your mind about DCC? (I guess I'll try to get the thread back to what its suppost to be, instead of some people calling others "childish" by being "childish"...)Hey MOJAX, I decided to stick with DC for now because of a limited budget becoming even more limited. I am getting my drivers liscense May 14, and I have put back most of my money into a savings account for the summer. Next summer I am planning on getting a job, so DCC might be of interest then. I like DC and DCC sounds really interesting as well, so I am open to all options of the hobby. Thanks for the post. -beegle55
I'll bet you can't wait until May 14'th! Drive carefully as there are a lot of idiots on the roads.
Michael Click Here to view my photos at RailPictures.Net!
My Photos at RRPictures.Net: Click Here
beegle55,C'mon, man. You don't think anybody has been flaming on this thread? Back on Page 1, you wrote: "In addition, I don't think their has been an off topic post yet, except for YOURS MODELMAKER!!!!!!!! I didn't start this post for flaming, so shut up and mind your own buisness, thanks. And yes, WE REALLY DO ENJOY OUR DINOSAURS!!! SO THANKS FOR THE CONCERN BUDDY!!!!" Telling people to "shut up" is usually considered "flaming" on most forums (not to mention the eight exclamation points and the entire sentences in all caps...with multiple exclamation points yet).
Not for nothing, but you can't be taken seriously as the victim of a flame war when you were spotted with a can of gasoline and a match earlier in the very same thread.
el-capitan,I'll continue to take the manufacturer's specs of DCC products over the word someone who has very little use for DCC and isn't shy in saying so. No offense, you understand. But I have to assume that when a company offers a 5 amp product, it's good for 5 amps. And unless you can come up with an example of a greater than 5 amp continuous load O-scale engine, then I will continue to point out that one can get O-scale decoders for about half of what you originally claimed.
I have never claimed to be an expert on DCC installations in O-scale. I will lay claim to certain level of knowledge about DCC. And I know that as long as your decoder amp rating is greater than the stall current of your loco, you won't "blow" the decoder (no matter the scale, no matter what you do to it after installation). If you have an O-scale loco that pulls less than a 5 amp continous load (and less than a 10 amp peak load), than the DG583S is all you need for a decoder. I don't have to be an O-scale expert to know that.
Huh?
Actually, it wouldn't require that much wiring for your layout. Since you already have a centralized block control panel (your dispatcher's panel), all you'd do is run wire from your toggles to the BDL168 inputs, then run the BDL168 outputs to the blocks using the existing wires. The specifics would change depending on how you wired your layout in the first place (the common return, for example), but it sounds like a simple installation.
Um, of course it does. Why wouldn't it? Heck, the old Twin-T coils that MR helped bring into the hobby back in the, what? 1950's? 1960's? Those old things could detect a train standing still. The BDL168's sense a current draw across the block like the Twin-T's do. So any motor, running or not, will detect. Also, by adding a resistor or a light source to any rolling stock will also cause it to detect. Jay-Bee even makes resister wheelsets in HO scale for just that purpose, although one could make them yourself if you wish.
What kind of detection system can't sense stopped trains? Unless they don't have resistors or engines...but then without engines it's not really a train (by rule).
How many LHS's sell software? My club uses Railroad&Co. http://www.freiwald.com/ But there's also a free program called JMRI. http://jmri.sourceforge.net/apps/PanelPro/PanelPro.html
You are not wrong about O-scale and I never said you were. However, you are wrong about certain things with DCC.
Paul A. Cutler III************Weather Or No Go New Haven************
Yea I can hardly wait until my b-day!
Paul, I might have used some stong words, but we are putting all of the bad on this thread behind us, so please don't get it started again!!!!!! We are trying to get back on some sort of topic related to DC use. Thanks for your reply and the heads up on your critiquing of others, but lets try to keep those kind of posts on the down low, thanks!
beegle55 wrote: Hey Jim, you have a good list of reasons why you are in the DC club. I agree with number 6 alot :P, it seems like every time I make an investment into a piece of new technology, something else comes out that I want more... I guess that will always happen though. Anywho, I think it will be interesting in what develops over the next few years. -beegle55
While I will agree that I would like something more robust to come along, I don't think that will happen anytime soon, not 5 yrs anyway. MR technology moves pretty slow compared to other fields because of the limited market. If everyonw who owns a cell phone would get into model railroading perhaps the MR technology would move as fast as cell phone technology.
As long as the dinosaur club is in session, I thought I'd show some fossil bones. My control Panel. It really doesn't look as bad as the picture seems. Upper black labels are for blocks, yellow label switches are switches. 3 lighting switches also on panel, there are a couple more on top.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
You are so right El Capitain, not only does the technology move slowly the uptake and acceptance of new technology is very slow. Consider the control technology that shall not be mentioned by name, what are we, 10, 15 years since it was introduced? Finally reaching critical mass where it is on a level footing and now out-pacing DC. Look at all the incredibly valid reasons that are listed here for DC users not to switch. Imagine the resistance to a new technology if there was significant cost and or difficulty in upgrading all the decoder equipped locos? Someone further up the thread suggested that they would wait until prices came down. I suspect we are close to the bottom of the barrel for pricing. There has been a substantial drop so that entry level system can be had for under $100 and good starter sets under $150. Decoder prices have dropped also. How low can they go and allow relatively low volume manufacturers to still make a viable business. We are not in the high volume consumer market here so we are never going to get pricing like pocket calculators.
Just out of curiosity, what has been happening to the price of DC throttle packs in the last 5 years? I would assume that sales volume of these has dropped significantly and I would expect the MRC's of this world to start to ramp up the prices of the higher end throttle as they appeal to a smaller more specialized market segment. Is that what is happening?
The other problem for any radical change in new technology will be getting credibility. I would imagine that we may be faced with more than one competing new technology. Will this be like a VHS v Beta-max where one wins out and the other falls by the wayside? Will modellers shy away from adopting these new things in case they are left with a dead end technology? It has happened before in this hobby. Look at all the attempts at command control that have not thrived.
My personal expectation is that we will see and evolution over the coming years based on the now well established unnamed technology. We will see dramatic improvement in the user interfaces employed by the throttles as manufacturers tackle the issue of large banks of functions. More and more functions and gimmicks will be added again requiring huge improvements in the control systems. I think within the next decade that these are the changes we will see, not a radical change in the actual control system through the rails.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I've been kind of lying low on this thread for a while, mainly because I have a feeling that my original reply to Modelmaker is the one that started the whole series of blasts on this thread. I was told by another contributor that my reaction to the term "Dinosaurs", when I mentioned being happy with the Jurassic Era was out of whack when I was the one who had brought up the subject originally (hey, really, guys, there WERE little Mammals back during that era. Really! It wasn't all Brontosauri and precursors to T-Rex'es).
But enough of Paleontology.
Actually, in re-reading Modelmaker's thread, I begin to see the humor in it, and I DO owe you an apology for mis-reading it. I must have been in 'Defensive Mode' because nobody has ever accused me of not having a sense of humor.
So, people, let's let the DC/DCC battle rest for a while and all listen to each other, okay? I KNOW my reasons for not converting, they're financial. STRICTLY financial! And let me reiterate, an $11 dollar decoder for one of my Swiss Watch brass locos is going to be like purchasing an Ipod instead of a home entertainment system. That's my belief and also what I've been told at my LHS by DCC experts who know both my layout and loco roster. But that shouldn't deter anyone who is thinking about DCC from going ahead. It's just not for me, at the present time.
Argument presented, argument settled.
Now let's get back on topic, okay? As I said, I apologize to all of those that I offended, we wouldn't all be in this hobby if we didn't first of all love TRAINS, no matter HOW we operate them.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Paul3 wrote: el-capitan,I'll continue to take the manufacturer's specs of DCC products over the word someone who has very little use for DCC and isn't shy in saying so. No offense, you understand. But I have to assume that when a company offers a 5 amp product, it's good for 5 amps. And unless you can come up with an example of a greater than 5 amp continuous load O-scale engine, then I will continue to point out that one can get O-scale decoders for about half of what you originally claimed.
I don't remember the specifics but I know the guys in my club were having problems with decoders not living up to what they said they would. You are right, if the manufacturer says 5 amps it should work in my locos. Let's put an end to this argument as we are not getting anywhere.
Paul3 wrote: Again since you seem to have read all my posts you will notice that a helpful DCCer explained how block control could be done with DCC. Unfortunately it would require completely rewiring the blocks on my layout. Anything is possible with enough money and time.Actually, it wouldn't require that much wiring for your layout. Since you already have a centralized block control panel (your dispatcher's panel), all you'd do is run wire from your toggles to the BDL168 inputs, then run the BDL168 outputs to the blocks using the existing wires. The specifics would change depending on how you wired your layout in the first place (the common return, for example), but it sounds like a simple installation.
Right now my layout's blocks stretch from signal to signal (assuming that I have signals which have not been installed yet, but for sake of argument). In order to have proper protection yet still have maximum operation with DCC I would want to isolate a 24" section of track at the signal which would be tied into that signal's relay. The rest of the 30ft blocks would operate constantly. If the signal is red in both directions, that short section of track would go dead. I'm sure there would be other ways of doing it but this seems to me like the most operator friendly as the dispatcher would only need to worry about what signals to throw and not routing track power. I would basically be doubling the amount of mainline blocks.
Paul3 wrote: $240 for block detection? really? Does it detect trains that are not moving? If there is a cheaper way of doing it please share but I was simply quoting one suppliers price that has a unit that is able to detect stopped trains. I never said this was the only way.Um, of course it does. Why wouldn't it? Heck, the old Twin-T coils that MR helped bring into the hobby back in the, what? 1950's? 1960's? Those old things could detect a train standing still. The BDL168's sense a current draw across the block like the Twin-T's do. So any motor, running or not, will detect. Also, by adding a resistor or a light source to any rolling stock will also cause it to detect. Jay-Bee even makes resister wheelsets in HO scale for just that purpose, although one could make them yourself if you wish.What kind of detection system can't sense stopped trains? Unless they don't have resistors or engines...but then without engines it's not really a train (by rule).
Again, I was simply stating what it would cost me given one company's price. I am in no way an expert in block detection because I have never had a need for it with block control. I was simply using that company's price as a rough estimate of what it would cost me.
Paul3 wrote: If all this on-screen stuff can be done with DCC then why havn't I seen it at my LHS? Again if you read the entire post I want all of this in a simple plug and play system. I never said it can't be done.How many LHS's sell software? My club uses Railroad&Co. http://www.freiwald.com/ But there's also a free program called JMRI. http://jmri.sourceforge.net/apps/PanelPro/PanelPro.html
I had a chance to take a look at these websites and if I am reading it correctly I would need the following: A program from whatever manufacturer that shows my layout on screen, a computer interface system (from a different manufacturer) that connects my computer to the switches, blocks, etc. Decoders and boosters from yet a different manufacturer to run the trains. And all these different systems from different manufacturers are supposed to communicate with each other. This really seems like something way above my head. Remember, that thread was titled "ultimate operating system" and I simply said that I wanted something that is plug and play that a simple person like me can use. This seems like something that I would need to hire an IT guy just to wire in a switch. I new that this stuff was out there, just not in the package that I could use.
simon1966 wrote: Just out of curiosity, what has been happening to the price of DC throttle packs in the last 5 years? I would assume that sales volume of these has dropped significantly and I would expect the MRC's of this world to start to ramp up the prices of the higher end throttle as they appeal to a smaller more specialized market segment. Is that what is happening?
Simon,
You got me thinking about MRC so I went to their site and it lists most of the power packs as "This item is out of stock. Please order this item from your favorite hobby dealer."
Now I have to wonder what they are up to?
For Oscale walkaround throttles the price has stayed consistent over the past 5 years however the number of manufacturers has dropped. The only ones that I know of are MRC and GML. There are more manufacturers but those 2 are the only ones that carry walkarounds with enough juice for O scale. I would bet that I higher percentage of Oscale guys have gone to DCC than the smaller scales because of the size of the locos making it easier to install decoders.
simon1966 wrote: The other problem for any radical change in new technology will be getting credibility. I would imagine that we may be faced with more than one competing new technology. Will this be like a VHS v Beta-max where one wins out and the other falls by the wayside? Will modellers shy away from adopting these new things in case they are left with a dead end technology? It has happened before in this hobby. Look at all the attempts at command control that have not thrived.
I don't think the beta vs VHS analogy carries as much weight in the model train world simply because many MRers don't need infinite compatibility with everyone else. Just look at how many scales there are. I know there are also alot of guys that enjoy bringing their equipment to a buddy's house. I am not one of them and I am pretty sure that I am not alone. If some guy rang my doorbell tommorrow and offered me the dream system for my layout but I would be the only one who had it, I would take it in a heartbeat.
simon1966 wrote: My personal expectation is that we will see and evolution over the coming years based on the now well established unnamed technology. We will see dramatic improvement in the user interfaces employed by the throttles as manufacturers tackle the issue of large banks of functions. More and more functions and gimmicks will be added again requiring huge improvements in the control systems. I think within the next decade that these are the changes we will see, not a radical change in the actual control system through the rails.
Dirty track is a pain and I also would like to weather the top of the rails on some of my lesser used sidings. While it would be possible to use batteries since I am in Oscale, the idea of recharging them all the time is not pleasant either. What would be cool is to have a recharging track, like next to a water tower or coal chute. You pull your engine up to the spot, set a timer and it recharges the batteries without taking them out. Has this ever been done before, like in G scale? It would lend itself to better prototypical operation. There also could be a "hybrid" battery system where the motor runs off the battery but the battery is being constantly recharged from track power. There would be no shimmies or shakes when going over a small section of dirty track.
The Beta v VHS analogy is a particularly good point to bring up. The NMRA has issued a set of standards and recommended practices that address compatability among different manufacturers. The fact that the manufacturers have bought into this set of standards and practices is a testament to our resolve as consumers to demand this compatability.
These standards apply to electrical and mechanical function. How many times have us N Scale folks called someone to task for non RP25 wheels? We got MTL to waffle on LP wheels in N Scale to the point where they were shipping their models with both! We pointed out that the sides on some InterMountain locomotives were backwards; they replaced the shells. Atlas has fixed issuesd with their models too. You got a problem with a manufacturer? Stop buying from them. In most cases (when I wasn't totally screwed up in my thinking), the manufacturers came around to our train of thought.
The DCC standards are very important to the future of our hobby! This standard crosses all of the scales. That MTH and Lionel have opted to go with different standards only limits the consumer to one particular product to expierience the full capability ot the models features. A lot of us in the smaller scales have already noted our displeasure with this. In the smaller scales, all of the major manufacturers have gone to a standard that allows all of the product to perform to the cutomers basic needs for DC and DCC control.
We are the ones spending the money that keeps the lights on at the manufacturers of our hobby supplies. If they want to keep groceries on the table and the lights on at the office, they must come up with ways of keeping us happy. We are customers in a discretionary market, we are at the top of the food chain. If someone gives us a piece of junk and says that it's the best thing to come down the pike, we have the ability to throw the internet BS flag. What are they going to do?
If you want DC or DCS or anything else, to be the dominant technology in the MRR world, you have to vote with your hobby dollar. Otherwise you are standing next to the DC. DCS, DCC or other Folk folk and peeing into the wind. At 46 years old; I have not commited to any technology. I like living in both worlds, with dry pants!. Afterall, they figured this crap out with the internet, didn't they!
Bob
el-capitan wrote: simon1966 wrote: The other problem for any radical change in new technology will be getting credibility. I would imagine that we may be faced with more than one competing new technology. Will this be like a VHS v Beta-max where one wins out and the other falls by the wayside? Will modellers shy away from adopting these new things in case they are left with a dead end technology? It has happened before in this hobby. Look at all the attempts at command control that have not thrived.I don't think the beta vs VHS analogy carries as much weight in the model train world simply because many MRers don't need infinite compatibility with everyone else. Just look at how many scales there are. I know there are also alot of guys that enjoy bringing their equipment to a buddy's house. I am not one of them and I am pretty sure that I am not alone. If some guy rang my doorbell tommorrow and offered me the dream system for my layout but I would be the only one who had it, I would take it in a heartbeat.
My point here was more to do with the notion of what happens when a competing technology fails. The owner of such technology gets left out in the cold and eventually has to replace it or stay stagnant. Any new technology in MRR is going to have a control component, a transmission component and something in the locomotive to actually make it work. If a technology fails and the parts to make the loco work are no-longer available (Betamax tapes) then you either have to be content with the roster you have or move on to another technology if you want to run new locomotives.
simon1966 wrote: el-capitan wrote: simon1966 wrote: The other problem for any radical change in new technology will be getting credibility. I would imagine that we may be faced with more than one competing new technology. Will this be like a VHS v Beta-max where one wins out and the other falls by the wayside? Will modellers shy away from adopting these new things in case they are left with a dead end technology? It has happened before in this hobby. Look at all the attempts at command control that have not thrived.I don't think the beta vs VHS analogy carries as much weight in the model train world simply because many MRers don't need infinite compatibility with everyone else. Just look at how many scales there are. I know there are also alot of guys that enjoy bringing their equipment to a buddy's house. I am not one of them and I am pretty sure that I am not alone. If some guy rang my doorbell tommorrow and offered me the dream system for my layout but I would be the only one who had it, I would take it in a heartbeat.My point here was more to do with the notion of what happens when a competing technology fails. The owner of such technology gets left out in the cold and eventually has to replace it or stay stagnant. Any new technology in MRR is going to have a control component, a transmission component and something in the locomotive to actually make it work. If a technology fails and the parts to make the loco work are no-longer available (Betamax tapes) then you either have to be content with the roster you have or move on to another technology if you want to run new locomotives.
good point. I guess that is why DC will be around forever because toggle switches and can motors will never go out of style.
Exactly, DC control has no compatibility problems, or at least it didn't until some bright spark came up with non-DC compatible decoders (older Soundtraxx for example). Although the trend today seems to be very much towards dual control decoders for sound and non sound. I think that the fact that BLI introduced their non-decoder versions of models and now the Blue Line DC sound systems speaks volumes about the large number of DC users.
I can't see the can motor going anywhere either. They are cheap to make and they are more than up to the task. What will change is how the power is delivered to the motor and how that power is controlled. DC and DCC locos are identical from the wires to the motor brushes through the drive train. In simple terms, the only difference is that the DC guy is holding the rheostat in his hand and attenuating and increasing the voltage to the track, which is directly connected to the motor leads via the wheels and pickups, whereas the DCC guy is remote controlling the rheostat in the loco that is attenuating and increasing the voltage to the motor leads directly.
There are still plenty of DC products that are new and top of the line on the market. I also agree with the compatibility point because DC is like a universal language of model railroading. And yes, those tough little can motors will always have a spot in model railroading.
Well Athearn join the DC/Sound on their newest Genesis F7s-these are modernized F7s with tons of details changes..This also applies to the latest SD45-2 release.
DC Functions:
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote: I have seen this system use..Its very nice system..The advance system:http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR90&P=WR and the basic system:http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR91&P=WR
I have seen this system use..Its very nice system..
The advance system:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR90&P=WR
and the basic system:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR91&P=WR
navygunner wrote:The Beta v VHS analogy is a particularly good point to bring up. The NMRA has issued a set of standards and recommended practices that address compatability among different manufacturers. The fact that the manufacturers have bought into this set of standards and practices is a testament to our resolve as consumers to demand this compatability. These standards apply to electrical and mechanical function. How many times have us N Scale folks called someone to task for non RP25 wheels? We got MTL to waffle on LP wheels in N Scale to the point where they were shipping their models with both! We pointed out that the sides on some InterMountain locomotives were backwards; they replaced the shells. Atlas has fixed issuesd with their models too. You got a problem with a manufacturer? Stop buying from them. In most cases (when I wasn't totally screwed up in my thinking), the manufacturers came around to our train of thought.The DCC standards are very important to the future of our hobby! This standard crosses all of the scales. That MTH and Lionel have opted to go with different standards only limits the consumer to one particular product to expierience the full capability ot the models features. A lot of us in the smaller scales have already noted our displeasure with this. In the smaller scales, all of the major manufacturers have gone to a standard that allows all of the product to perform to the cutomers basic needs for DC and DCC control. We are the ones spending the money that keeps the lights on at the manufacturers of our hobby supplies. If they want to keep groceries on the table and the lights on at the office, they must come up with ways of keeping us happy. We are customers in a discretionary market, we are at the top of the food chain. If someone gives us a piece of junk and says that it's the best thing to come down the pike, we have the ability to throw the internet BS flag. What are they going to do? If you want DC or DCS or anything else, to be the dominant technology in the MRR world, you have to vote with your hobby dollar. Otherwise you are standing next to the DC. DCS, DCC or other Folk folk and peeing into the wind. At 46 years old; I have not commited to any technology. I like living in both worlds, with dry pants!. Afterall, they figured this crap out with the internet, didn't they!Bob
So Bob.....whats you're money on in the next video War? Blue Ray HD VS. HD-DVD? So far Blue Ray is twice the cost of HD-DVD. Sounds eerily reminiscant of the Beta Vs. VHS wars. We know who won that one....The less expensive model
rrebell wrote: BRAKIE wrote: I have seen this system use..Its very nice system..The advance system:http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR90&P=WR and the basic system:http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR91&P=WR There is a third one from crest that has a plug in decoder just like dcc only it is radio controled so the only thing it gets though the track is power, no signal!!!!!
OK, this has caught my attention. Do you have to wire a decoder in each loco? A system like this makes a lot more sense than DCC.
After the Beta and Laser disc purchases, I decided that keeping up with technology was not for me. I waited to buy a DVD player when they were selling at $45.00. I don't rent or buy too much media so scaling back on that investment has saved me a ton of cash! As for the next generation, It will also likely be the format with the most manufacturers undercutting the competition.