Chalk me up as one with an extensive roster, largely (but not exclusively) brass, most of which was new long before the advent of DCC. I also use a rather unusual variant of DC power distribution known as MZL, aided and abetted by automatic train stop, on a layout that, when somewhat more complete, will have a LOT of hidden staging.
The biggest advantage, to me, is that I'm not at the mercy of a microchip! Direct electrical connections, discrete resistors and clearly visible switch connections are much more to my liking.
The system I use has the advantage of being able to handle single-operator display running as well as multi-operator CTC operation where the major turnouts are controlled from a central panel, the dispatcher assigns track by powering it from a specific controller and the train crews are free to run their trains and throw minor turnouts without consulting "headquarters" or flipping power toggles. The only thing lacking is sound - which, with several locos running in an acoustically "bad" room, is something I can live without.
Yes, I know that a pure DC loco can be jiggered to make noise. I can just see the onlooker reaction to Whoomf - chuff - chuff - chuff emenating from the subterranian depths when there isn't a single moving steam loco anywhere on the visible trackage of the layout... Thanks, but no thanks!
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September 1964)
tomikawaTT wrote: The only thing lacking is sound - which, with several locos running in an acoustically "bad" room, is something I can live without.Yes, I know that a pure DC loco can be jiggered to make noise. I can just see the onlooker reaction to Whoomf - chuff - chuff - chuff emenating from the subterranian depths when there isn't a single moving steam loco anywhere on the visible trackage of the layout... Thanks, but no thanks!Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September 1964)
The only thing lacking is sound - which, with several locos running in an acoustically "bad" room, is something I can live without.
I can agree with that. Half the enjoyment of MR to me is the silence.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
I'd like to say my new layout is DC, but I can't. I even had a great walk-around throttle (homebuilt, and I even bought parts to make a second one). Unfortunately, I took one look at my layout and the number of blocks/isolation tracks and associated wires and switches I would need, and I ran screaming from the room ... right to my LHS where a nice NCE PowerCab was on sale. Of course, I have dumped quite a bit of cash installing decoders in engines that were fine on DC beforehand. I feel like I copped-out on the DC guys, but I will say I'm enjoying my DCC system. I should also point out that I'm pretty much a geek, so the whole programming thing is second nature to me. I think DC is cool, but I was having trouble thinking far enough ahead to get it right on my layout as I built it, and DCC is a little more forgiving on the planning stage.
Hope I didn't fuel the fire - didn't mean to.
Jim
jim22 wrote: I'd like to say my new layout is DC, but I can't. I even had a great walk-around throttle (homebuilt, and I even bought parts to make a second one). Unfortunately, I took one look at my layout and the number of blocks/isolation tracks and associated wires and switches I would need, and I ran screaming from the room ... right to my LHS where a nice NCE PowerCab was on sale. Of course, I have dumped quite a bit of cash installing decoders in engines that were fine on DC beforehand. I feel like I copped-out on the DC guys, but I will say I'm enjoying my DCC system. I should also point out that I'm pretty much a geek, so the whole programming thing is second nature to me. I think DC is cool, but I was having trouble thinking far enough ahead to get it right on my layout as I built it, and DCC is a little more forgiving on the planning stage.Hope I didn't fuel the fire - didn't mean to.Jim
Jim--not with me, you didn't fuel the fire. What you said is what a lot of us should think--that what works best for you is the answer for you. So--have fun training, my friend, that's what it's all about.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Soo Line fan wrote: Well this is different, a thread dedicated to DC. What are you guys using for power packs? I have an old MRC Tech 2 2500 and 2400. For walk around I use a MRC 55 cab control. Jim
Well this is different, a thread dedicated to DC.
What are you guys using for power packs? I have an old MRC Tech 2 2500 and 2400. For walk around I use a MRC 55 cab control.
Jim--
I have an MRC Control Master 20 with the walk-around throttle and the 25ft. extension. Works very well for me, has plenty of power (plus a "Nudge" switch to get some of them started smoothly. Nice little unit. I've had it about five years and no problem whatsoever.
twhite wrote: Jim--not with me, you didn't fuel the fire. What you said is what a lot of us should think--that what works best for you is the answer for you. So--have fun training, my friend, that's what it's all about.Tom
Ding! Grand Prize Winner!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Well said, Tom. Let's keep things civil... it is all about the trains, so personally I don't care what system the guy next to me uses... for all I care, he can use a lil' shovel to load his live steam brassie full of coal!!! Remember, your layouts are YOUR layouts... Glad to hear that some peeps like DC and some like DCC. Both are great and personal taste is what it is about! CHOOO CHOOOO...
Brian
I am a dinosaur, and I have no desire to evolve... in my hobby. At work we have DCS systems, computer systems, you name it. I understand it. Everything we make must be right or it costs us money, and everything we use to make it costs big bucks, so we don't want to waste it. It is not a hobby.
This is a hobby. It is not a religion, or politics ! Why does every disagreement have to turn into a point of honor or some such ? Lighten up.
When I had a layout, in fact the last two layouts, I ran DC, and had 3 MRC 2400s. When I build another one it will have the same things. I like playing with little HO steam trains, and making them run good, and making them look good. How I control them really just doesn't move me, as long as I can control them. I will probably go to DCC when the price drops to the point that it is worth it, to me. It ain't there yet. It ain't even close. Every time I think how I paid about $175 net for my last computer system, and see what it can do versus DCC, and how easy it is to do it, the whole pricing thing with DCC just ticks me off.
I had a bit of brass some years ago. I sold all of it but two (still have my first ever loco and an N&W streamlined K2), to finance newer purchases like BLI Class As, PCM Y6bs, BLI Class Js, P2K Class Ys, and P2K Berkshires, track, switches, etc. So far, I am not a bit dissatisfied. I got brass because that was the only way to get the prototypical steam locomotives I wanted. Times changed. My newer engines may not last as long as brass, but I think they are still going to last longer than I will. I have had to replace a gear. I realize I like working on them too, so that's okay. As long as NWSL is around I think I can manage.
All the above refers to me. As long as you like toy trains too, I am all for you. I do not feel an overpowering urge to educate you, or change you. I do not understand why anyone would prefer diesels over steamers, just exactly like a lot of you can't see why I like that old junk.
If I say 2 plus 2 equals 5, I am wrong. Feel free to tell me so. But, if I say I don't like green, don't tell me I'm wrong, and for God's sake don't try to change my mind, because I am right; I don't like green ! And just because you like green, don't take as a personal challenge. I am glad you like green. Someday, I may have to have some green paint for something, too. If I like eBay, and you don't, or vice versa; good. We both face less competition in our chosen marketplace. Don't tell me how to bid, and I won't tell you. Anyone who can't figure things out doesn't deserve to compete.
Have fun.
I'm in the DC club, mainly because my layout isn't finished and I can only really run one train on it at a time.
But it's a matter of when, and not if, I will leave this club...Once my major trackwork is done, it's time to concentrate on getting a controller and installing decoders. DCC is one of the reasons why I'm in this hobby again. There's no tunring back, baby!
At least DCC locos are "backwards compatible" :) and can run on DC layouts.
What puzzles me is that if there is this flood of folks abandoning DC for DCC, then why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere? Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
I'm with others here - my new layout is about 9'x17' and will run two trains at once as a maximum in continuous running or only one if I'm doing more than just railfanning. I'll be the only operator 99% of the time. My old MRC Throttlepacks and some Atlas selectors have been and will remain all I really need (though a walkaround capability would be really nice).
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
twhite wrote: Antonio--Why didn't you come on EARLIER, LOL? Your posts always tend to set us back to what we were talking about originally, myself included (especially in this one!). Thanks.Tom
Antonio--
Why didn't you come on EARLIER, LOL?
Your posts always tend to set us back to what we were talking about originally, myself included (especially in this one!).
Thanks.
Just wanted to read along a bit as things did go south for a couple of minutes there.
You may remember that a year or so ago I was accused by a forum member, named Bruce, of trying to act like a moderator whenever I would kindly suggest "calm" on a thread undergoing a flame war. As a result I became a blowtorch target and I even started hurling rocks back until finally my common sense kicked in again.
My attitude is that this forum is a club that is open to anyone. Club members should help and look out for each other, even during disagreements. I wouldn't want to see an imitation of the big melt-down that occured on the Atlas forum back in 2005.
What has been really neat about this forum is that lately a number of threads that have had "heaters" spark up were immedietly cooled down by fellow forum members.
That's great!
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
mononguy63 wrote: What puzzles me is that if there is this flood of folks abandoning DC for DCC, then why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere? Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
Jim, I think that perhaps you have made an assumption that is not correct. First of all, I am not sure that there is a "flood" of folks abandoning DC for DCC. DCC has been around in one form or another for well over a decade. As a technology it has reached a critical mass and is most likely here to stay. It appears that many starting new layouts are choosing the DCC route, but I am not sure that we have seen a huge shift over in the well established layouts. The cost, the potential technical challenges and the difficulty, or even impossibility of converting cherished older models are very real and valid reasons for not making the change. Further more I would suggest that a DC layout that has expanded to include walk-around-memory-throttles has likely reached a point of development where it works well for the owner and does an excellent job for what they need. This further imbalances the cost/benefit calculation for conversion. (remarkably little perceived benefit for a huge potential cost) There has certainly been no shortage of regular used DC throttle packs on EBay and at train-shows, but then it is a lot simpler and cheaper to convert a smallish layout.
I think it is rather sad that this thread even exists. The notion that you all can feel belittled and looked down upon because you use a tried and tested control system that works very well for you is unsettling to me. I really don't like to see someones pride-and-joy described as a dinosaur simply because it was hand made to the highest level 2 or 3 decades ago and has older technology electrics and can't be easily converted to DCC. Almost all of us that use DCC cut our teeth on a DC layout. I have nothing but the fondest memories of my childhood layouts and my first efforts upon return as an adult. At no point did I have a layout that was anything much more than a couple of interconnected loops with 2 power-packs. I had a blast with this setup. It was not complex, I was not significantly invested in DC or older models. So I planned for and now run my new layout on DCC.
It takes all sorts of folks to make up a community. The hobby needs the techies and the computer nuts. It also needs the rivet counters, the super detailers, the scratch builders and the kids. It also needs the devotees of DC, block control and CTC boards. I don't think we do ourselves any good at all when we reduce ourselves to name calling and goading those with differing views and opinions into pointless arguments. So hopefully you won't get any DCC fanatics ramming their view of control down your throats.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
I'm between layouts at the moment. I do plan to build a layout as soon as I get out of my apartment and into a house, and so far, I plan to stick with DC for several reasons:
*I am pretty much a loner so I don't anticipate a need to run multiple trains at once.
*The cost factor. I find it more fun to spend money on things that are fun to look at as opposed to tiny circuit boards that don't appear to do anything at all!
*General fear and distrust of technology. How long will it be before the current DCC systems are completely obsolete and replaced by some some new gee-whiz thingie? I'm already sick of it with digital cameras. My old camera was state-of-the-art 4 years ago. Now it is considered obsolete even though it still works fine. I'm not real excited to spend another few hundred bucks (or more) to replace it with something that itself will be obsolete in 4 years.
DCC is certainly cool and definately the way to go for large layouts with multple operators, but for a small home layout like I'm planning, I don't think I need it. Maybe at some point in the future when technology stabilizes enough to make the investment worthwhile, I'd consider it.
Simmon I agree with your assessment of the flood of DC to DCC users based on the local tri-county scene and surrounding clubs.Neither of the hobby shops carry DCC but,will order anything you need.According to the shop owners there is no market demand.There is a small group in Tiffin that uses DCC and I believe the Sandusky(Oh) club uses DCC.Other then that its all DC and those that uses sound uses the Atlas Quantum Engineer Controller..We have one at the modular club..However,sound was banned at the other HO club..That was by popular vote.
Now as we can see BLI has introduce a line of DC locomotives with sound.That speaks volumes in its self about DC still being the predominant power source-I know several modelers that is very happy about this line of sound equipped locomotives.I might be interested in a sound equipped SW1500 even if I have have to use a QEC instead of using my stored Empire Builder II.
On my a building industrial switching layout I will use my MRC CM20 since it has walk around control capability from the unit its self..The throttle has a 15 foot cord that will cover my industrial layout from end to end seeing its only going to be 10 foot by 18".
As far as DCC I agree with millrace..I also look for a new whiz bang gee whiz by golly state of the art control system. Why? Simply put and IMHO technology will demand it.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Simplicity and cost effenciency are why I use DC. I might not be involved with the DC club in years down the road, but it will always have a special place in my heart. I'm glad we have got back to the roots of the thread with discussing things halfway back on topic, but its ok to have off topic moments every now and then.
-beegle55
Most interesting??
For me it is cost,I have DCC but it cost to much to convert.So I'am staying with DC for now.I've been in and out of model rail roading for the best part of 50 years,I have HO and N scale both.
To try and convert all my locomotives to DCC is out my reach!DC or as often referd to as analog is easy for me.I'am useing an MRC 7000 sound and power unit I've had for years.and allso have an astro craft wire less I use(I converted it to re-chargable battries).When the price comes way down then maybe.??I have one loco with sound but I'am useing an old sound-trax unite ,the one with the cam on the driver,it sounds good but was lucky on the buy.It was real hard to apply the cam to the driver with melting the driver.
Example DCC an reverse loop cost from $30.00 and up!In DC a dpdt switch and some wire and a few blocks. cost about $3.00 to $5.00I'am not knooking DCC but the cost is real high.
Maybe some day???
JIM
I have MRC Railpower 1500's (3) that hold all the needs of my 23' by 5' layout.
rrebell wrote:Also remember that dc can be operated like dcc with a crest radio control system, they have radio controls that plug right into the dcc plug like a decoder, real easy to have a few engines with that feature and swich back and forth with a few swiches.
Please tell me more about this "crest radio control system???
Sounds like an interesting alternative, details please...
I have seen this system use..Its very nice system..
The advance system:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR90&P=WR
and the basic system:
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXSR91&P=WR
When I decide that I'm ready to expand my layout and make the leap to a bigger system, I think I'll convert to DCC. The advantages for large layouts seem pretty clear: more trains, more operators, and relatively less wiring. I put twenty-three blocks in my small starter layout, which is basically a pair of urban junctions, operated with dual-cab control. It was easy to wire it, but it was very time-consuming, and the circuit logic for a bigger layout with multiple cabs would get pretty unwieldy, I think. And I'm willing to wait awhile to see other great stuff what the electronics revolution can provide.
Incidentally, per the comments on brass engines shedding parts, I have noticed that some of them do - some of the NJ Custom brass stuff seems to have detail parts that were held on with some kind of adhesive, rather than soldered, and I've noticed they will shed a bit, things like injectors and piping - as a Grande fan, Tom, you might have noticed this with their L-76 class 2-6-6-2s.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
mononguy63 wrote:why can't I find a nice cheap gently used DC handheld control anywhere?
mononguy63 wrote: Seems like they'd want to be selling that stuff off to finance another decoder.
The club that I belong to had the quest throttles before they switched to DCC. The throttles were pretty reliable and had a decent range as this was a large club. The only thing I didn't like about them was the push-button controls. Running a mainline train wasn't bad but switching with these wasn't pleasant because you were constantly punching buttons to speed up and slow down. I really need to have a knob. I went with GML enterprises and their walkaround throttle with memory is great. Their website is
http://www.thegmlenterprises.com/
They also have really inexpensive electronic components for wiring blocks and such. And fast clocks although I have no experience with these.
I'm going to have a small, around-the-wall layout. It will include a removable "lift out" section so continuous running is possible. My MRC Tech pack is an excellent performer. Except for two P2K E units, my HO diesel fleet is DC.
I was concerned about costs and was going to stick with DC. Then after talking to a friend and performing a little research I've found that a DCC setup with a Zephyr, plus 5 digitrax 123 decoders is still cheaper than one brass HO locomotive from Overland Models. So, that's why I scratch my head sometimes when I keep reading about "high cost".
Yes, there is a cost.....but I don't agree that it's so high up in the atmosphere as some modelers seem to express. For people on tight budgets (like me) it is still doable. Whether buying a few items at a time or my mother's favorite route: Layaway.
But anyway, there's nothing wrong with wanting to stick with DC. It is tried and true.
For me, with a small layout, I'm going DCC because....
1. Even as a lone operator sometimes, I want to be able to operate two or 3 locomotives. I want the freedom to be able to run on any track, anytime, without flipping block toggles.
2. Simplified wiring.
3. Speed matching. Even with tweaking, some Atlas, Athearn, and P2K units will play "tug-o-war" when coupled with each other.
3. I really like the incredible lighting effects offered (Mars, Gyra, Strobe, Ditch, Rule 17) and the ability to turn them on and off at will (like the prototypes). Same for passenger car interior lights.
4. The flexibility you have with sound, including the upload features. I want to be able to pick and choose which horn sounds my diesels have. I'm a nitpicker about this.
Again, I'm not being a DCC nazi. Just posting the reasons for my change of heart a couple of years back.
Snipe! Snipe!
I'm a DCC user! You guys just {condescending words about DC and failure to evolve, changing times, too much wiring, etc.}... and that's where babies come from!
Just kidding!
Frankly, DCC does not fit everyone's need. I held out for many years but swicthed to DCC about one year ago. I'm very happy with it, but I would have been happy with DC too. DCC does have drawbacks (such as cost, decoder installs on older locos, etc.) and its advantages.
Go ahead and run DC if that's what fits your need. Don't be ashamed of it either. It's a very robust and simple way to run trains, and it's hard to argue with something that has worked for over half a century (or more!).
It's what makes you happy. Don't led the "experts" bully you into a system you don't want. And that's from a DCC user!
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
oleirish wrote: Example DCC an reverse loop cost from $30.00 and up!In DC a dpdt switch and some wire and a few blocks. cost about $3.00 to $5.00I'am not knooking DCC but the cost is real high.
Not trying to be a DCC sniper. But while this statement is accurate on the surface, it is possible to control a DCC reverse loop with a switch rather than an automatic reverser. While I have no objection at all to people selecting and/or staying with DC (it really isn't my business) I do think that anyone making this choice should have accurate information and not hype/anti-hype from either side.