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The 'DC' club

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:13 AM

"I thought this was to be a place to discuss DC topics? We cannot get away from the constant blah blah blah of the DCC fanatics even here."

Well, why don't you post about something other than DCC? So far, most of the posts here make it look like a DC AA group. Cool [8D]

"Hi, I'm George. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>

"Hi, I'm Sam. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>

"Hi, I'm Bill. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>

(And yes, that is meant in a humorous vein.)

But really, is being against DCC the only viable topic for a DC group?  Is that all there is?

I happen to count myself in both camps. I have DCC on my home layout, our club layout is DC, but will be switching soon, and I make products for DC layouts. On my home layout I have a separate DC trolley line, since automating a trolley is one thing that's very easy in DC but requires more work in DCC.

Our club layout will be dual. No-one is interested in forcing others to convert their engines, so we'll build in the ability to run both. It's not that hard.

That is one solution for those with a large investment in difficult to convert engines. No-one ever said you had to convert ALL your engines to DCC. In most cases it would be foolish to do so. But if you have a hankering to run multiuple trains with DCC, you can just convert a few engines to run in DCC. You can still run your DC engines with a flip of a switch.

But if you don't run multiple trains or don't want to run them with DCC if you do, then DON'T GET DCC! Despite the claims of a few here, I've yet to see anyone argue that everyone needs DCC. If someone did, DCC users would be the first to disagree.

The argument that leaves me scratching my head is the one that contends that there's going to be another "ulitimate" control system, so it's best to wait until it comes along. Guys, that's like holding onto a PC with DOS because the ultimate computer isn't out there yet. 

First, you can miss a whole lot of fun while you're waiting. 

Second, there is no ultimate system. Technology evolves constantly.

Finally, how will you know when it comes along? You've skipped the DCC train, how will you recognise your ultimate sysytem? Is it the next one to come along? The one after that? Or the third in line? How will you tell?

One final thought - there's more that unites us than separates us. Scenery, signaling, track work, buildings, detailing, painting, etc, etc. None of those are based on our choice of control systems. So I ask again - what are the DC specific topics?  Is being anti-DCC all there is?

Mike Tennent

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:34 AM

Mike,I beg to differer there will be a new Wow by golly whiz bang control system.You see DCC is not the ultimate control system because it still relies on power though the rails and thus has the same faults such as dirty track,block-oops power districts shorts,wiring etc..DCC has it faults as we all know unless one is using the very basic DCC.

Know this..I wish I could invent the next whiz bang control system.Big Smile [:D]

Larry

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Posted by el-capitan on Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:47 AM
 Paul3 wrote:

el-capitan,
1). I agree that price is a big factor...but what about the Digitrax DG383AR decoder?  http://www.digitrax.com/prd_mobdec_dg383ar.php  It's a 3 amp decoder (5 amp peak) that's roughly 1.5" x 2.25" in size, & has 8 FX functions.  At http://www.tonystrains.com/ it's only $50 ea., not $100 ea. 

Prices may have come down to some extent since I last looked into it. Still a big investment though. And alot of work to install decoders.

 Paul3 wrote:

2). Head-on collisions can be factored out with DCC, but it requires a lot of work to do so.  For example, using block detection, signalling, and a form of ATS to stop trains from going past a red signal are all possible with DCC today.  It is, however, much more expensive to do so.  Or, you can use your kind of block control with DCC...using the Dispatcher to turn off the blocks that the trains aren't using.  A manual kind of ATS, sort of.

I already have this with DC. Why would I switch?

 Paul3 wrote:

3). With DC, you track it down to the faulty resistor/relay/power supply/transistor/etc., and replace the part (for the most part). 

My electrical game plan is K.I.S.S. (keep it stupid simple). I have no resistors, relays, transistors or etc's. If there is a problem it is either with a loco, wiring or power supply. I have yet to run into a problem that was not diagnosed and fixed within 5 minutes and solved with "common" replacement parts (fuse, wire splice, etc.)

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:05 AM

Larry,

I think you misinterpreted what I meant, or I didn't say it clearly.

I didn't mean to say there wouldn't be another system, just that there will never be an "ultimate" system that one should wait for. That's a chimera.

I'm enjoying DCC now. If another system comes along, I'll evaluate it and see if it's for me or not, just like I did with DC/DCC.

Mike T.

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Posted by el-capitan on Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:11 AM
 MTennent wrote:

"I thought this was to be a place to discuss DC topics? We cannot get away from the constant blah blah blah of the DCC fanatics even here."

Well, why don't you post about something other than DCC? So far, most of the posts here make it look like a DC AA group. Cool [8D]

"Hi, I'm George. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>

"Hi, I'm Sam. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>

"Hi, I'm Bill. I run single trains and I'm DC." <polite applause>

(And yes, that is meant in a humorous vein.)

But really, is being against DCC the only viable topic for a DC group?  Is that all there is?

I happen to count myself in both camps. I have DCC on my home layout, our club layout is DC, but will be switching soon, and I make products for DC layouts. On my home layout I have a separate DC trolley line, since automating a trolley is one thing that's very easy in DC but requires more work in DCC.

Our club layout will be dual. No-one is interested in forcing others to convert their engines, so we'll build in the ability to run both. It's not that hard.

That is one solution for those with a large investment in difficult to convert engines. No-one ever said you had to convert ALL your engines to DCC. In most cases it would be foolish to do so. But if you have a hankering to run multiuple trains with DCC, you can just convert a few engines to run in DCC. You can still run your DC engines with a flip of a switch.

But if you don't run multiple trains or don't want to run them with DCC if you do, then DON'T GET DCC! Despite the claims of a few here, I've yet to see anyone argue that everyone needs DCC. If someone did, DCC users would be the first to disagree.

The argument that leaves me scratching my head is the one that contends that there's going to be another "ulitimate" control system, so it's best to wait until it comes along. Guys, that's like holding onto a PC with DOS because the ultimate computer isn't out there yet. 

First, you can miss a whole lot of fun while you're waiting. 

Second, there is no ultimate system. Technology evolves constantly.

Finally, how will you know when it comes along? You've skipped the DCC train, how will you recognise your ultimate sysytem? Is it the next one to come along? The one after that? Or the third in line? How will you tell?

One final thought - there's more that unites us than separates us. Scenery, signaling, track work, buildings, detailing, painting, etc, etc. None of those are based on our choice of control systems. So I ask again - what are the DC specific topics?  Is being anti-DCC all there is?

Mike Tennent

First of all I know this was supposed to be humor but I have DC and the ability to run 4 separate cabs on my layout.

This is exactly what I knew would happen in this thread. Just because I have a DC layout does not mean I am Anti DCC. That would be like me saying that because most of you have HO layouts you must be anti O scale. I happen to like DCC, it's just not as good as DC for what I want to do with my layout.

This thread started out pleasantly enough with a few guys talking about their DC layouts and what type of equipment they use. Then before you know it the DCCers are in here with the "what about this" and "it's not that expensive". It pushes the rest of the DC guys into a position where we are forced to explain ourselves and offer a defense as to why we havn't switched. Just because there are certain aspects of DCC we don't like does not mean we are DCC bashing, we are expresing our oppinions. Am I HO bashing if I state that the equipment is too small for my taste?

We are not looking to be converted or reasons to be converted. Nor are we bashing. Let it go. Start a new thread entiled "The DCC Club" and discuss how great DCC is.

The person that started this thread put forth the question "who has not switched to DCC and why?" We were simply answering his question.

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Posted by MidlandPacific on Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:26 AM
 Paul3 wrote:

2). Head-on collisions can be factored out with DCC, but it requires a lot of work to do so.  For example, using block detection, signalling, and a form of ATS to stop trains from going past a red signal are all possible with DCC today.  It is, however, much more expensive to do so.  Or, you can use your kind of block control with DCC...using the Dispatcher to turn off the blocks that the trains aren't using.  A manual kind of ATS, sort of.

Paul, I think you've put your finger on the aspect of DCC that's most impressive (at least, to this relatively uninformed DC user): it takes us a couple of big steps in the direction of prototype operation, without the artificialities that DC block operation can impose, or the limitations of earlier systems like ASTRAC (which maxed out, I think, at five trains) or CTC-16.  You know you have attained a reasonable simulation of reality when things like cornfield meets start happening, and the list of solutions to your problem starts to look a lot like the range of solutions real railroads adopt. 

 

 

 

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Posted by tomikawaTT on Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:46 AM

To all the DCC supporters who have chimed in so far:

In my initial post, back on page 2, I used the acronym DCC once, to identify a time frame.  Other than that, I stated my choice of control system and my reasons for the choice (no, it isn't simple 'one train at a time' DC, but it's a lot easier to operate than standard 'cab control.')

I am not 'defending' my choice of MZL.  I didn't even use the word 'money.'  I DID say I don't have any desire to try to trace circuits through a microchip, but that's because I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle.  I'm also a firm believer in the old mechanic's adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."  My MZL system, and some of the (up to) 47 year old components thereof (including a Tenshodo power pack bought new in 1960) ain't broke.

I realize that my choice is a personal one.  So is yours.  If you are happy with what you have, whether it be a rheostst and DPDT connected to a 12-volt battery or the latest and greatest offspring of Silicon Valley, wonderful.  If you AREN'T happy, feel free to switch.  DON'T feel free to try to switch ME, because I am very happy with what I have now and have no intention to change.

Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

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Posted by Dave Vollmer on Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:04 AM

DCC guys,

I started another thread so we can leave the DC guys alone.  Clearly it's almost impossible these days to open MR and not be bombarded with DCC info.  I doubt that we can add anything further to the wall of information out there already.

Folks will convert if and when they're ready, and not a moment sooner.  If Digitrax wanted to pay me is a recruiter, I'd be a little more aggressive, but I think by lecturing the DC folks we're not contributing to their enjoyment.

Good points all, and thanks for keeping it civil.  I'll depart this thread now, and I apologize for "crashing" the DC club!

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Posted by BRAKIE on Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:19 AM
 MTennent wrote:

Larry,

I think you misinterpreted what I meant, or I didn't say it clearly.

I didn't mean to say there wouldn't be another system, just that there will never be an "ultimate" system that one should wait for. That's a chimera.

I'm enjoying DCC now. If another system comes along, I'll evaluate it and see if it's for me or not, just like I did with DC/DCC.

Mike T.

Mike,Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.The "ultimate" system will be the one that no longer relies on track for its power source.Think of it! No more worries over dirty track or wheels..No block or power block wiring no concerns over reverse loops or wyes.

I fully believe that will be the next step thanks to todays/tomorrows technology.

Larry

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 15, 2007 11:28 AM

Larry,

I guess we should be jealous of the Garden Railroad guys. They do that now - radio control of battery operated engines. Maybe it's just a few generations of battery improvement away for smaller scales?

The "new" (50's era) house we just moved into has a huge back yard that is destined to have at least a simple oval in it. Smile [:)] 

The thought of track cleaning outside doesn't sound like fun, so when we do it, it'll definitely NOT be track powered!

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Posted by selector on Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:00 PM
For DCCers and DCers alike, there is a very interesting discussion on DCC over in the Atlas forum that is worth having a look to get a different analysis of DCC's problems.  Paul Cutler and another gentleman who is an electrical engineer owning a hi-tech firm are debating the historical limitations of DCC.
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Posted by Vail and Southwestern RR on Thursday, March 15, 2007 12:01 PM
 el-capitan wrote:
Then before you know it the DCCers are in here with the "what about this" and "it's not that expensive". It pushes the rest of the DC guys into a position where we are forced to explain ourselves and offer a defense as to why we havn't switched.

The person that started this thread put forth the question "who has not switched to DCC and why?" We were simply answering his question.

Right.  But if one of the reasons for not switching is based on incomplete, or even wrong information, wouldn't you like to know?  I'd say the same thing the other way round.  If someone says that DC can't do something, so they 'have to' have DCC, and it is just not true, that should be corrected, too.  If someone's reason for using DC is that they 'heard' that it costs $XXX to convert a loco to DCC, and that number is off by a factor of two, or even more, shouldn't he have up-to-date, correct, info?  In the case of people who have DC, and are happy with it, I don't think they should switch.  But new model railroaders are reading this, too.  And I think they should have as much correct info as they want to base their decision on.

You don't have to defend your decision to stay with DC to me, or anyone else.  There is only one person that needs to be content with that, and that is you.  The only reason I posted anything in this thread was to point out a couple of things that a beginner might have taken as universal truth that were somewhat misleading, or at least incomplete.  If that's bashing, I'm guilty, but it looks the other way around to me.

Jeff But it's a dry heat!

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Posted by beegle55 on Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:26 PM

I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers!

 -beegle55

 

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Posted by beegle55 on Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:28 PM

Well put Jeff. I have always said that I would go DCC if I was just getting into the hobby, but the fact of the matter is that I am not, and yes, I'm happy were I'm at with DC. I don't think DCC is bad, I just think DC is what makes me happy right now, therefore the reason of my thread.

 -beegle55

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:51 PM
 Dave Vollmer wrote:

DCC guys,

I started another thread so we can leave the DC guys alone.  Clearly it's almost impossible these days to open MR and not be bombarded with DCC info.  I doubt that we can add anything further to the wall of information out there already.

Folks will convert if and when they're ready, and not a moment sooner.  If Digitrax wanted to pay me is a recruiter, I'd be a little more aggressive, but I think by lecturing the DC folks we're not contributing to their enjoyment.

Good points all, and thanks for keeping it civil.  I'll depart this thread now, and I apologize for "crashing" the DC club!

Dave thanks for starting another thread, but hopefully it seems that there are a few modelers that have posted in the perspective that there is some type of "blurry" rift between DC and DCCers.

It's just so ridiculously strange.  There should not be any at all. Especially when remembering the "MTH" debates of 2004-05.  Many of the HO/N modelers here, whether DC or DCC, Brass or Plastic, Athearn or P2K...................... were united. 

Hopefully that "we're all modelers" attitude has not changed.

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Posted by Paul3 on Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:52 PM

clang,
You're trolling again.

Brakie,
You are always going on about this "super system" that will come along and vanquish DCC.  Maybe, some day, something will replace DCC.  But will either one of us be alive to see it?  NMRA standards are not tossed aside so easily.  IIRC, you said on the old Atlas Forum that DCC would be replaced in 5 years...and that was at least 3 years ago.  So far, the only thing that's come out is MTH's DCS system, and that's not exactly taking the world by storm in HO scale.  The only other thing that's even rumored to be coming along is the so-called "3rd Generation DCC"...but note that's still NMRA DCC, and is supposed to be compatible with current DCC installations.  So far, it's not practical to beam enough energy through the air to make locos run, and battery tech hasn't leaped forward much.  Maybe mini-turbines, but can you imagine refueling your HO or N locos with something combustible?

I think we're stuck with power through the rails for the forseeable future until battery tech makes it possible to run an HO loco with a 14v, 1 amp load for at least 2 to 4 hours straight.

el-capitan,
1). Actually, you can get O-scale decoders for as little as $40 ea. at Tony's.  The NCE ATL-O decoder is made for Atlas O locos.  BTW, the DG383AR came out 3 years ago (4/04).

2). You used the "head on" collision as a reason to not switch to DCC.  I merely pointed out that "head ons" can be eliminated by various means with DCC.  I didn't say you should switch.

3). That's a good design.

Your reasons are your own for not switching to DCC.  That's ok.  But when you post those opinions based on incorrect facts and express them as the truth, that's when DCC users feel they have to correct you.  For example, your $100 per O-scale loco statements.  These were incorrect and have been that way for at least 3 years.

I think you would find very few pro-DCC users that would argue with you if you didn't post incorrect assumptions about DCC (like head ons being unavoidable, or prices being twice as much as they really are, etc.).  No one should argue with you if you say you'd rather spend the money on another loco.

selector,
Thanks.  Just so folks know, "Sharkman" over on the Atlas Forum is, at my guess, a very wealthy individual.  He apparently has the means to reproduce, in N-scale, most if not all of the Santa Fe Railroad.  His major complaint is that there is no DCC system that can handle more than 120 trains at once, nor can throw more than 2000 switches.  He's also a 25 year Electrical Engineer who feels that DCC should be compliant with electrical industry standards used, for example, by the military.  As such, his opinions are rather out of the mainstream for the hobby.  I've tried to point out that he is probably the only single person in the world concerned with the 120 loco limit, but he's rather adamant that DCC is a poor design because of it.  Sigh.

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Posted by MidlandPacific on Thursday, March 15, 2007 2:15 PM

There's no pleasing some people.

 When I first heard of DCC with a 99-loco limit, I remember thinking it was like one of those 999-year business agreements: just a way of setting a practical maximum that nobody would ever see. 

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Posted by Adelie on Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:06 PM
I guess we should be jealous of the Garden Railroad guys. They do that now - radio control of battery operated engines.

If I were home where is has been in the 70's the last few days, I'd be jealous of the garden railroad guys.  But right now I'm working in Alaska where it is 1 below....I'm not jealous of anybody outside!

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Posted by richg1998 on Thursday, March 15, 2007 3:32 PM
 beegle55 wrote:

I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers!

 -beegle55

 

Though I am a DCC person I find all of this childish. There is room for both though I admit some DCC people can be overwhelming. No doubt if you are an insecure person, the DCC talk will bother you. Besides there is a forum under Model Railroad Forums for DCC. So those other people are just doing tit for tat.

I use Linux software and there are religous wars there also. Give it up. Imagine how much more modeling you can accomplish. If you are just a person who just likes to talk (old timer) about anything or just wants to be heard, then I guess this thread is for you. 

rich 

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Posted by AntonioFP45 on Thursday, March 15, 2007 4:43 PM
 beegle55 wrote:

I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers!

 -beegle55

 

Really? What club?  Snipers at rest?  What a wonderful, and childish way to refer to your fellow forum members and modelers; isn't it? Thumbs Down [tdn]Disapprove [V]

Yes, hopefully all is well in your world of "model railroading". 

cheers Sigh [sigh]

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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:18 PM

Antonio FP, isn't there anything else you have to do besides police this thread

You can always go help the ebayers maybe even get a life.Smile [:)]

Paul three, I posted a smiley so that makes it okay right Bow [bow]
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Posted by el-capitan on Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:22 PM
 Paul3 wrote:

Your reasons are your own for not switching to DCC.  That's ok.  But when you post those opinions based on incorrect facts and express them as the truth, that's when DCC users feel they have to correct you.  For example, your $100 per O-scale loco statements.  These were incorrect and have been that way for at least 3 years.

I think you would find very few pro-DCC users that would argue with you if you didn't post incorrect assumptions about DCC (like head ons being unavoidable, or prices being twice as much as they really are, etc.).  No one should argue with you if you say you'd rather spend the money on another loco.

You are the one that has the incorrect facts. Atlas O engines are low amp engines (<1 amp) because they run on can motors. Older locomotives such as all nation and US hobbies have open frame motors. They can pull over 2 amps. I know several guys with DCC who have experimented with many different decoders and the only ones that have proven effective cost over $80. If you want sound, lights, etc it is over $100. Just because a decoder is rated at 3 amps doesn't mean anything. 3 amps may only be good for 5 minutes of running. If you run it for longer it fries. This is based on what I have seen and no amount of your rhetoric will change that. Please make posts based on your knowledge and experience. Not assumptions. If you had any experience with 2 rail O scale you would know this.

I never said that head-ons where unavoidable with DCC, only more likely.

Every statement that I have made in this forum has been truth based on my experience and I do not speak on subjects that I am not knowledgeable in. I only wish that others could say that.

This is yet another classic example of me stating my opinion based on my past experience and a DCC person coming out of the woodwork to call me a liar. I knew this was going to happen the minute I saw this thread.

By the way, I take back the appology I made about my DCC snipers comment.

I have no interest in arguing this with you as my only reason for being here was to share ideas and experience with other modelers that have similar systems. It is unfortunate that I am unable to do this.

 

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Posted by MOJAX on Thursday, March 15, 2007 9:57 PM
 beegle55 wrote:

I see a trend has started, and DCC'ers now have their own club, so the DCC snipers should be a rest for a while. All is well in my world of DC. Cheers!

 -beegle55

This thread has been very interesting and thanks for starting it. When did you (beegle55) change your mind about DCC?

 

 

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Posted by navygunner on Friday, March 16, 2007 2:31 AM

 I switch back and forth between a pair of MRC tech IV 280's and a Digitrax Zephyr on my N Scale layout.  What does that make me?

 I see the benefits of 4 individual throttles without assigning an address to each one in DC.  I flip switches to match polarity and power supplies to meet the needs of my trains.  I speed, brake and momentum match locomotives in a MU with DCC.  Each system has it's advantages and disadvantages. 

 I operate each control system on the same layout without any changes (other than which system is supplying power).  The MRC's are hooked up to a bunch of DPDT switches to 4 teminal boards that distribute power to the blocks, the Zephyr is hooked up through a DPDT switch to all of the blocks.  I am capable of and use both interchangably, and do so based on my mood.

 I've been running an M3 Yellowstone with a coreless motor and a Sound equipped DCC Challenger this evening on DC.  Tommorrow it may be a bunch of DCC'd SD70mac's and SD70M's or maybe The GS4 and USRA 2-10-2 on DC/DCC, Maybe the GP38's?  How about the DCC Trainmasters or H16-44's,  Maybe the CZ pulled by a DC set of PA/B/A's?  Maybe the DC N&W 608 and 611 will meet in Podunk, KY?

 Really, the only issue is when you come into the hobby.  If it's not time and cost effective to convert or go to DCC... That's cool.  If you have the time and money to go DCC that's cool too.  If you are just starting out and go either way, that's cool too!  It's a personal choice based on your unique needs.

 It's not mine or anyone elses place to tell anyone else what they should use.  Pick what you  feel comfortable with and go for it!

 I still run my 'legacy locomotives" on DC or DCC, I run my coreless motored locos on DC, I run my dropin/plugin decodered locos on DCC or DC.  Sometimes I get a wild hair and push the cars around the tracks with a finger!Pirate [oX)]

Bob

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Ohio
  • 1,615 posts
Posted by Virginian on Friday, March 16, 2007 4:23 AM
Even if decoders drop to $10 an engine for a full featured unit, that is $10 additional, per locomotive or other equipment, I do not need or plan to spend, so can we please stop with the "decoders are only $20, or $50, or whatever" remarks !  My ex-wife's standard of living cannot stand the hit.
What could have happened.... did.
  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: Good ol' USA
  • 9,642 posts
Posted by AntonioFP45 on Friday, March 16, 2007 5:02 AM
 clang wrote:

Antonio FP, isn't there anything else you have to do besides police this thread

You can always go help the ebayers maybe even get a life.Smile [:)]

Paul three, I posted a smiley so that makes it okay right Bow [bow]

Hello Clang,

I actually have a pretty good life.  I don't police anything. Bergie does that. Were you not the flaming poster on the Atlas forum? 

I enjoy posting and interacting with fellow railfans and model railroaders that are good and decent folks. Whether on the web, or face to face.    Hopefully you'll eventually get back into that category someday soon. Is there anything else that you do besides troll threads and disrespect fellow model railroaders with your childish, posts? 

BUT---  Unlike you, I do try to keep it encouraging and positive.  Exchanging info and opinions should be enjoyable.  

BTW: Flaming others without having been provoked is the equivilent of swimming in a cesspool full of garbage. Thumbs Down [tdn] It's saddening that you jumped in head first.  Why don't you shower the trashy attitude off and join in with the rest of us? 

Even with disagreements, the members here are a super good crew.  

 

"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"

 


  • Member since
    July 2003
  • From: Indy
  • 997 posts
Posted by mononguy63 on Friday, March 16, 2007 6:30 AM
 navygunner wrote:

 Sometimes I get a wild hair and push the cars around the tracks with a finger!Pirate [oX)]

Bob

Bob, just think of that as the ultimate in "digital" control!

That also sounds strikingly similar to several of my turnout controls...

"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley

I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious.  -Stephen Wright

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: SINGAPORE
  • 246 posts
Posted by ATSFCLIFF on Friday, March 16, 2007 7:51 AM

I have been modelling in N scale for over 25 years using the DC cab control. DC has served my needs then and now. Yes, I agree that there are advantages and disadvantages of both systems, and many times I pondered whether to convert to DCC. New technology is always enticing.

What changed my mind is the cost. I have a very large collection of engines and it will cost me a bomb to convert! That's not all, many of the older ones are not even compatible (unless you do some surgery to the frame) so, you can only insert decorders on the newer engines?? Not a good very proposition!

I have been using a pair of GML walkaround throttles for many years, they are good and reliable and will continue to use them for many more years. For newbies and retirees like me cost is an important factor when deciding on coverting to DCC.

Cheers, 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Tacoma, WA
  • 847 posts
Posted by ShadowNix on Friday, March 16, 2007 10:31 AM

Hey all,

First, I want to say THANKS to all the people trying to keep it positive.  I am so impressed by those of you that have cab control, walk-arounds, etc. in non-dcc... I don't have a CLUE how to do this, but it sounds daunting and ambitious, so kudo's to you all. 

Second, I would say that a lot of people who do DCC (like me) do it because that is all (or most of) they know.  I grew up doing DC, took a 20+ year hiatus and then went back DCC, since that was the new cutting edge (to me...) and it seemed natural.  It also seemed "easier" with regards to track wiring, insulated vs. electro-frog, etc.  Little did I realize what fun installing decoders can be.... that all said, yes, I love DCC, but I understand why some do DC.   In fact, I will probably be making a DC test track (albeit short) in my staging yard.

Finally, to those trolling... come on, guys.  We are all in the same hobby having FUN.  I am enjoying some parts of this discussion, especially learning all the cool things you guys have done in DC (I wish my dad had done/taught me some of these!!!) 

Happy rails.

Brian

"That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger!"
  • Member since
    May 2002
  • From: Massachusetts
  • 2,899 posts
Posted by Paul3 on Friday, March 16, 2007 11:11 AM

clang,
You're trolling yet again.

el-capitan,
Atlas O locos are low amp engines for O scale, which explains why NCE's ATL-O decoders are only $40 ea.  But you still haven't explained decoders like the Digtrax DG583S...these can be had for as little as $52 ea. when bought in a 10-pack (at Tony's, otherwise, they are $56 ea. for one or $53 ea. for 4).  The DG583S has a 5 amp continuous rating with a 10amp peak, and they can control 8 different functions (for lights, etc.).  This decoder has been on the market for 4 years.  Do you have O-scale locos that can pull over 5 amps continuous, & over 10 amps peak?  If so, your point stands.  If not, then my point that you don't have to spend $100 per loco for DCC in O-scale is correct, and you are wrong.

Shhh, don't tell anyone in my HO scale RR club, but I own three O-scale locos...  An Intermountain GP9 (with a Atlas FP7 drive), and two Weaver RS-3's (with P&D drives).  Not DCC...yet.  But that's the plan.

You did say on the older DCC thread, in regards to collisions, "With the current DCC system there is no protection from this."  That sounds like "unavoidable" to me.  The fact is that there can be protection from collisions with DCC...it just takes more time and money to do so.

If you do not speak on subjects that you are not knowledgeable in, why did you state that it would cost you $1500 to decoder 15 O-scale engines when one could do so for only $786.25? (that's 15 DG583S decoders from Tony's)  Why did you state that there is no protection from collisions with DCC when there can be?  Why did you state that block detection for your 1000 block club layout would cost $30,000 for when it can be done for $7,560 with DCC?  Or when you stated that your 30-block home layout would cost $1000 for block detection when it could be done for $240 with DCC?  Why did you imply that DCC could not offer Wi-Fi dispatching from your back yard, and not offer on-screen point and click throwing of track switches, and not offer on-screen occupancy?  (which can all be done with DCC right now) 

BTW, I'm hardly "coming out of the woodwork".  I've been here a long time, even before there was a forum back in the mid 1990's (it used to be a guestbook). 

Oh, and so far, nobody has called you a "liar", I just said you were incorrect.  Being incorrect is not the same as being a liar.

If you have no interest in arguing this, you aren't doing a very convincing job of it.  Most times, when people have no interest in something, they ignore it.  Smile [:)]

Paul A. Cutler III
************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
************

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