BRAKIE wrote: Antonio,I may get ream for this if its read by a club member..Anyway..There is a lot of older locomotives on the layout that whines(Tenshodo),growls,(Hobbytown and older steam locomotives including Varney,Penn-Line and of course brass steamers.We believe that is enough racket for our ears to endure but,would never ever complain to the owners of those locomotives after all they have their rights as club members and the majority of us older guys doesn't mind after all we are use to those locomotives having coming up through the hobby in those years..We have also thought of the rights of those members that wanted sound so,like all things sound was put to the vote and was defeated by a 37-10 vote.I suspect as more DC locomotives come with sound we will need to reopen the matter of sound and like always the members will have their say and vote.
Antonio,I may get ream for this if its read by a club member..Anyway..There is a lot of older locomotives on the layout that whines(Tenshodo),growls,(Hobbytown and older steam locomotives including Varney,Penn-Line and of course brass steamers.
We believe that is enough racket for our ears to endure but,would never ever complain to the owners of those locomotives after all they have their rights as club members and the majority of us older guys doesn't mind after all we are use to those locomotives having coming up through the hobby in those years..
We have also thought of the rights of those members that wanted sound so,like all things sound was put to the vote and was defeated by a 37-10 vote.I suspect as more DC locomotives come with sound we will need to reopen the matter of sound and like always the members will have their say and vote.
Guys, Midnight Railroader. come on. Why do we want to turn this into a silly flame war? We're all modelers in a discussion, not an argument. NOT ALL DCC users try to ram the technology down DC users throats. NOT ALL DC users are "anti-DCC". There are always a few "extremists" in both groups. Why let them poison the mood?
O.K, back to the discussion................
Brakie,
I see your point, however, I have to disagree with the issue regarding sound. As you stated a number of members own older units that are noisy; fair enough. However, the sound-equipped DC locomotives on the market offer "Volume Control". A typical BLI unit with the sound turned down to a very low setting is still quieter than untweaked, older Athearn BB units and import brass locomotives. ( Remember the brass U50 from the 1970s? So noisy it was nicknamed "Rock Crusher")
So even with volume control available, if a member wishes to run his new BLI steamer or E-unit, the sound must be turned off? No disrespect to your club, but "WoW!" that seems pretty stern. When this was brought up, did your club leadership "experiment" and allow members with sound units run them to see how if it negatively impacted the session? Or was it just voted "flat out" without checking it out first?
Just makes me wonder because the common rule of thumb for sound equipped locos in a club is basically: Sound equipped units at a low volume should be barely audible at approximately 15ft. linear distance. The horn or whistle should sound "faint" and distant.
With prototype locomotives, once they pass you at a grade crossing, the diesel engine or steam chuffs quickly fade into the distance. The above method allows you to simulate that in a "non-annoying" manner.
Peace
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Antonio,You are bound to get me hung yet by my fellow club members if they happen to read this." border="0" width="15" height="15" />" border="0" width="15" height="15" />
Well with the grinding,whining,growling etc we suspect the volume would to turn up to drown out the other noise and if you recall how noisy club operations was years ago you get my drift about the volume being crank up instead of down.
I fully agree had updated models the volume could easily be turn down.
I will tell you this..Sound will come up again as more DC sound equipped locos comes available and as a club we will need to work out a compromise.I already have a happy suggestion for this problem that will benefit everybody.
As to date nobody has a sound equipped loco..It was brought up by a question by a younger member discuss and voted on by the membership.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Driline wrote:the liberal DC zealots I see lurking here.
O.K, I understand Brakie.
Just made me wonder a bit. I'm assuming that the majority of your club's members (or the leadership) are in the "over 40" category. Onboard sound for HO was one of those "dreams" that so many of us (me too) had back in the 70s and 80s. Now that it's here I had assumed that many of the baby-boomer generation modelers would be "gung-ho" about onboard sound inspite of some of its limitations. Especially now that they can enjoy sounds that are either extinct or very rare such as: Fairbanks Morse, Baldwin, Alco, GG1 electrics, EMD 567 diesels as well as a variety of steamers. That is what a number of the more senior members at the club I was at were enjoying about onboard sound.
At my LHS sound units have been selling pretty well for the past three years. A number of "boomers" have been making the purchases. One gentlemen that I know purchsed six BLI GG1s!
But it does appear that sound units will eventually roll on your club's rails.
High Greens
BRAKIE wrote: Antonio,You are bound to get me hung yet by my fellow club members if they happen to read this." border="0" width="15" height="15" />" border="0" width="15" height="15" /> Well with the grinding,whining,growling etc we suspect the volume would to turn up to drown out the other noise and if you recall how noisy club operations was years ago you get my drift about the volume being crank up instead of down.I fully agree had updated models the volume could easily be turn down.I will tell you this..Sound will come up again as more DC sound equipped locos comes available and as a club we will need to work out a compromise.I already have a happy suggestion for this problem that will benefit everybody. As to date nobody has a sound equipped loco..It was brought up by a question by a younger member discuss and voted on by the membership.
Maybe someone should travel there and make a demonstration with a sound equippted engine.
Safety Valve wrote: BRAKIE wrote: Antonio,You are bound to get me hung yet by my fellow club members if they happen to read this." border="0" width="15" height="15" />" border="0" width="15" height="15" /> Well with the grinding,whining,growling etc we suspect the volume would to turn up to drown out the other noise and if you recall how noisy club operations was years ago you get my drift about the volume being crank up instead of down.I fully agree had updated models the volume could easily be turn down.I will tell you this..Sound will come up again as more DC sound equipped locos comes available and as a club we will need to work out a compromise.I already have a happy suggestion for this problem that will benefit everybody. As to date nobody has a sound equipped loco..It was brought up by a question by a younger member discuss and voted on by the membership.Maybe someone should travel there and make a demonstration with a sound equippted engine.
Actually every member is aware of sound equipped locomotives and the majority has heard them...We are not cavemen ya know nor are we a bunch of old geezers.Recall I had DCC/Sound..
Midnight Railroader wrote: Driline wrote:the liberal DC zealots I see lurking here. What about the conservative DC zealots?
Dangit you're right. How unpolitically correct of me. My apologies to all you conservative DC zealots
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote: I'm a DCCite, but I also have doubts about sound. I am concerned about how having four or five trains with sound running in a 12x14 area is going to sound. I'm thinking that in the real world, I can hear one, or sometimes two (when I'm lucky) trains at a time. And the location of the sound makes sense. In a layout that surrounds me I'm wondering if the effect will be lost. Then again, I'm in N-scale, and on a buget, so maybe this is all just sour grapes!
I'm a DCCite, but I also have doubts about sound. I am concerned about how having four or five trains with sound running in a 12x14 area is going to sound. I'm thinking that in the real world, I can hear one, or sometimes two (when I'm lucky) trains at a time. And the location of the sound makes sense. In a layout that surrounds me I'm wondering if the effect will be lost. Then again, I'm in N-scale, and on a buget, so maybe this is all just sour grapes!
You are correct there about having too much sound. My layout is an 11X7 HO shelf pike and I can only handle one maybe two sound engines at a time. I still like running non-sound units too and listening to the click clack of the wheels over the track.
I will still buy sound locomotives because there is just no substitute, but I also like being able to turn off the sound when it gets to be too much. So you'll see 4 or 5 sound units on my layout, but I'll only have one at a time usually.
el-capitan wrote: I must have missed the humorous part. Seems like a flame to me.And I didn't think my post was offensive but if it was I appologize.
I must have missed the humorous part. Seems like a flame to me.
And I didn't think my post was offensive but if it was I appologize.
I am the idiot you're talking about. Your layout offends me too. It looks nicer than mine. I like the way the track flows. Do you have any recent pics of the layout? I'd like to see it. Mine is just an around the wall shelf unit and has gotten boring rather quickly. I am in the process of adding some staging tracks though.
Old layout pic....
El Capitan wrote:Why are DCC-users so threatened by the idea that someone might not want to use DCC?
Why are DCC-users so threatened by the idea that someone might not want to use DCC?
Took a few days away from forum land...
Yes, to my way of thinking (read: opinion) hidden staging tracks are a bad design. I have two left hands, both of which are all thumbs, so I opt to minimize the risk of something bad happening where I can't see it, so I don't put things where I can't see them. I have a "hidden" staging yard in that it is below the scenicked portion of the layout, but the yard ladders and 75% of the track are easily seen from the aisle through gaps I cut in the fascia. I can get away with this since I work in N scale, which is a lot more forgiving of space constraints than HO or O.
Once that yard is fully operational, I plan to stage particular trains on particular tracks, with particular lash-ups powering them. In the event that something gets shuffled, I have a pack of sticky notes that I can apply to the track assigments... significantly cheaper than 9 million toggle switches, 4 power packs, and several miles of wire...
Operational bottlenecks that are intended to spice up operations are not necessarily bad, unless they are created as an unintended consequence to a design element that wasn't thought out very well. Either way, I can't see how DCC can't address any operational situation. At the HO club I operate with, We have several such choke points, one being a fairly complex wye at the main yard. Sometimes we have to wait in the aisle for the track to clear, which can take 10 minutes or more.
When the yardmaster is ready to receive the train, the road crew pulls it in to an A/D track. At that point, the ET Hostler dials up the locomotive address and takes the power back to the shop for fueling etc, and the Yardmaster takes the train apart using the switchers. This dismemberment takes place on the same length of track, with two different operators working each end of the train. At no point does a toggle switch get thrown, or power get turned off to the track. I think I can say with confidence that this procedure cannot be done in DC without gaps cut somewhere, two (or more) power supplies, and a bunch of toggles getting handled to make a fairly complex wiring set up work.
My yard at home consists of 1 staging track, 3 A/D tracks, 6 classification tracks, an engine terminal with a 5 stall roundhouse, turntable, several shop and servicing tracks etc. etc. etc.
At any given moment there is a train coming in with 2-3 units, a train getting ready to go out with 2-3 units, two yard switchers, and about 20 locomotives between the roundhouse, shops and ready track. While this is going on, there are two trains out on the main line, and a mill switcher drilling the paper mill. There is constant power to every inch of rail, yet the only locomotives that move are the ones I tell to move.
There's a black wire on the right rail, a white one on the left, and the only insulator is on the wye track that leads to the yard. I currently run that on a micro switch to reverse polarity, but once I spend about $20, I can install an automatic reverser, making it hands free.
There isn't a DC set up in the world that can run my layout that simply. When I think of the control panels I've seen just to run a roundhouse in DC, I know I've made the right choice for me...
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
marknewton wrote: El Capitan wrote: Why are DCC-users so threatened by the idea that someone might not want to use DCC? If you're going to reduce this thread to sweeping generalisations - probably for the same reasons DC users are threatened by DCC.
El Capitan wrote: Why are DCC-users so threatened by the idea that someone might not want to use DCC?
Those of us who happily use DC don't care either way who else does or doesn't; but DCCers seem to care a whole lot that we acknowledge the Greatness That Is DCC.
I don't know why this is.
Just a thought....
What really is the point on this discussion? granted, i've seen some good arguments from both sides, but is this really important? this type of subject is a personal decision. Each person is different (no Duh!) and we all have different opinions. lets just respect eachother's opinions and leave it at that.
I honestly think we should end this topic and move on to something more productive, like...
What era do you model? and Why?
I'll start:
I model the late fifties-late sixties, mainly because i like the equippment in that broad era, plus there is a good mix of first generation & second generation diesels. as a plus, this is the most popular era, so it is easy to find equippment for it
your turn....
"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot Visit my blog! http://becomingawarriorpoet.blogspot.com
marknewton wrote: El Capitan wrote: Why are DCC-users so threatened by the idea that someone might not want to use DCC? If you're going to reduce this thread to sweeping generalisations - probably for the same reasons DC users are threatened by DCC.What I reckon really happens is that the majority of both DC and DCC users get along quite happily ignorant of what the other group is doing, and not caring about it either. The only time I've ever encountered impassioned DC vs. DCC arguments are online. A few who get involved are genuinely zealots, the rest I think are merely stirring the pot. As far as I'm concerned, people should use whatever system suits them, for whatever reason. What does bother though is when zealots from either camp tell lies to support their position.Cheers,Mark.
I try to avoid generalizations. I never made this comment that you are quoting. Somebody else did.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
I don't think DCC is for everyone. Installing decoders in older locomotives takes some courage, and a bit of technical skill. Not everyone has that.
That said, I'll also say that wiring a DC system for multiple cabs requires the exact same qualities, so that's not intended as a slam at all.
For me it came down to trying DCC on a club layout, and liking the flexibility it offers. Once the virtually idiot-proof MRC system came out, I felt comfortable making the leap.
Midnight Railroader wrote:The thing is, I have observed many times on this board that many DCC users are adamant that everyone must switch to the DCC system to operate their layout.
The thing is, I have observed many times on this board that many DCC users are adamant that everyone must switch to the DCC system to operate their layout.
(Remember, I said I didn't want to use DCC--that's ALL I said--and my layout was called 'Cheeseball.')
Here we are approaching page 8 of the thread. The originator who stirred the pot has not contributed one dot of additional verbiage. He must have a huge grin on his face by now!
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
marknewton wrote:I personally can't fathom why anyone would persist with a control system that I regard as archaic, user-unfriendly and unrealistic, but I don't care if people do make that choice.
marknewton wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: The thing is, I have observed many times on this board that many DCC users are adamant that everyone must switch to the DCC system to operate their layout.If I were to ask you to quote or cite some of these adamant DCC'ers, I wonder how many you could come up with? I ask because I don't recall seeing many posts of this nature, if any at all. I rather suspect this is no more than a strawman argument... (Remember, I said I didn't want to use DCC--that's ALL I said--and my layout was called 'Cheeseball.')No, it wasn't - the comment made was "Good, stick with your cheeseball DC", which is a very general reference to a widely-used system, rather than one specific to your layout. I believe you chose this interpretation because you're one of those pot-stirrers I referred to earlier. Nothing wrong with that, but you can't expect to have a sook when people respond in kind. Those of us who happily use DC don't care either way who else does or doesn't; but DCCers seem to care a whole lot that we acknowledge the Greatness That Is DCC. You reckon? I'm a DCC user, and I don't care whether you're even aware of it's existence, let alone acknowledge it. Most of my modelling mates share that attitude. So where's the evidence to support your assertion? Apart from a few deliberately inflammatory remarks posted in this thread, I don't think people care either way.I'll admit, I personally can't fathom why anyone would persist with a control system that I regard as archaic, user-unfriendly and unrealistic, but I don't care if people do make that choice. Each to their own...Cheers,Mark.
Midnight Railroader wrote: The thing is, I have observed many times on this board that many DCC users are adamant that everyone must switch to the DCC system to operate their layout.
just my
Driline wrote: I am the idiot you're talking about. Your layout offends me too. It looks nicer than mine. I like the way the track flows. Do you have any recent pics of the layout? I'd like to see it. Mine is just an around the wall shelf unit and has gotten boring rather quickly. I am in the process of adding some staging tracks though.
My most recent pics are on a photo page that you can get to by clicking on the www button at the bottom of this post. There are a few pics on the title page and then more on the "layout pics" sub folder.
I was going to try to get some more recent ones up this weekend but it depends on my schedule. The Red Wings managed to get past round one of the playoffs this year.
Midnight Railroader wrote: marknewton wrote:I personally can't fathom why anyone would persist with a control system that I regard as archaic, user-unfriendly and unrealistic, but I don't care if people do make that choice. You managed to undermine your entire argument by including this line, and make my point in the process. (Not that you would ever admit it, of course.)
SunsetLimited wrote:Are alot of you guys that are still using DC, using the Quantium Engineer from Altas and Broadway for your sound locos (assuming you have some) or are you just using the powerpack for the horn and bell? That can be a good alternative for clubs that don't want to switch from DC so the people with sound can still control the sound functions. I had one for awhile before i switched and i loved it. Its not walk around but still cool. Sorry a tad off topic, just curious.
I've never liked sound. I hear enough huffing and puffing at work all day long. Working on the railroad is my quiet time. I was thinking about getting one loco equipped with this though, just for the kids. But it's pretty low on the list of priorities right now.
el-capitan wrote: SunsetLimited wrote:Are alot of you guys that are still using DC, using the Quantium Engineer from Altas and Broadway for your sound locos (assuming you have some) or are you just using the powerpack for the horn and bell? That can be a good alternative for clubs that don't want to switch from DC so the people with sound can still control the sound functions. I had one for awhile before i switched and i loved it. Its not walk around but still cool. Sorry a tad off topic, just curious.I've never liked sound. I hear enough huffing and puffing at work all day long. Working on the railroad is my quiet time. I was thinking about getting one loco equipped with this though, just for the kids. But it's pretty low on the list of priorities right now.
One of the guys at the club installed sound in a Bachmann Thomas the Train, not sure if your kids are to old for Thomas but he sounded pretty cool with it.
SunsetLimited wrote: el-capitan wrote: SunsetLimited wrote:Are alot of you guys that are still using DC, using the Quantium Engineer from Altas and Broadway for your sound locos (assuming you have some) or are you just using the powerpack for the horn and bell? That can be a good alternative for clubs that don't want to switch from DC so the people with sound can still control the sound functions. I had one for awhile before i switched and i loved it. Its not walk around but still cool. Sorry a tad off topic, just curious.I've never liked sound. I hear enough huffing and puffing at work all day long. Working on the railroad is my quiet time. I was thinking about getting one loco equipped with this though, just for the kids. But it's pretty low on the list of priorities right now.One of the guys at the club installed sound in a Bachmann Thomas the Train, not sure if your kids are to old for Thomas but he sounded pretty cool with it.
No, my son is 6 and is too old for Thomas at this point. He actually may be too old for his Lionel layout I built for him 2 years ago . He wants to get into proto operation and is bored by trains going in circles. He actually wants to sell all of his die-cast thomas on ebay (I can't believe how much this stuff sells for)to buy an Atlas-O SD-35 or Weaver U boat to run on my layout. So that would be what I put sound in, if he ends up getting it.
My daughter is only 4 and shows little interest in Thomas but does like the trains. I try to limit her time in the basement due to her "throwing phase".
Also, I would have to buy a Lionel Thomas and convert it to 2-rail. Not something I'm to keen on.
CSX Robert wrote:Since when is 6 to old for Thomas? I'm a 35 year old N-scaler and I have Thomas, James, Percy, and Henry. Actually, they do belong to my 7 and 11 year old sons, but I like to run them to, and if they ever "outgrow" them, I 'll keep them for myself.
I cringe just having my son's Chessy System caboose on my layout because it doesn't fit. I can't imagine what my thoughts would be watching a train with a face going around my pike.
...and going...and going...and going...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Driline wrote: el-capitan wrote: I must have missed the humorous part. Seems like a flame to me.And I didn't think my post was offensive but if it was I appologize.I am the idiot you're talking about. Your layout offends me too. It looks nicer than mine. I like the way the track flows. Do you have any recent pics of the layout? I'd like to see it. Mine is just an around the wall shelf unit and has gotten boring rather quickly. I am in the process of adding some staging tracks though.Old layout pic....
Driline,
I like your layout! I'm downloading the photo and will use it as one of my references.
Your situation is similar to mine. We're "squeezed for space" so we have to take advantage of a track plan that works. I have even less space then you do, judging by the photo's appearance. With detailed scenery and several industrial customers, I certainly would not be bored with your layout design at all. It's good that you're adding to it.
Since I like both, switching operations and watching trains roll, I would have a double-track mainline on an around-the-wall layout like this. To me, with DCC/Sound, I would enjoy all the benefits in a small space.
Don't get bored.....smile and "enjoy-whatcha-got" You have a lot more than what many modelers already have.
tstage wrote: ...and going...and going...and going...
seriously, this thread is getting really old.