skerber wrote:I thought about switching to DCC, but as soon as I saw sound locomotives in DC--I have no desire to switch to DCC. Maybe someday way down the road--like 20 years--I will switch to whatever is the new technology at that point.
I thought about switching to DCC, but as soon as I saw sound locomotives in DC--I have no desire to switch to DCC. Maybe someday way down the road--like 20 years--I will switch to whatever is the new technology at that point.
skerber,
Switching to DCC just for sound would not be a wise reason for doing so. However (as Crandell likes to put it), if you want your locomotives to be able to "kiss" one another ANYWHERE on the same track, DCC is the way to go.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Yes, that is true. Or, how about this: on the same stretch of contiguous track (powered track between gaps), you have two locomotives, one parked, the other nudges slowly up to the rear coupler of the first, couples, and then you form a nearly perfect MU digitally by pressing a few buttons. Oh, one of the locos is a Challenger with 69" drivers, the other is a 4-8-4 variant with 80" drivers.
Try doing that in DC.
AntonioFP45 wrote: Brakie,You're saying that DCC won't be the club's "aspirin" or won't make the operating situation any better? And there are 40 guys that agree.......O.K, but will it not make overall operations easier? Add to that it's likely that some of your members have never tried the special lighting effects or sound through DCC. Is it possible that some of them may enjoy controlling their locos headlights, Mars/Gyra lights, and sounds?Like the group I belonged to, they might have a change of heart once they try it. We went "Ga-Ga!" That's what happened at my club's 20 year old layout once the switch was made. No one wants to go back...including the members that were originally anti-dcc. Membership also increased, rather quickly.Respectfully, to each his own and DC is fine, but it just makes me wonder though if your membership's resistence to the idea is more out of "don't shake the status quo" and "If it's not broken, don't try to fix it" type of mood.
Brakie,
You're saying that DCC won't be the club's "aspirin" or won't make the operating situation any better? And there are 40 guys that agree.......
O.K, but will it not make overall operations easier? Add to that it's likely that some of your members have never tried the special lighting effects or sound through DCC. Is it possible that some of them may enjoy controlling their locos headlights, Mars/Gyra lights, and sounds?
Like the group I belonged to, they might have a change of heart once they try it. We went "Ga-Ga!" That's what happened at my club's 20 year old layout once the switch was made. No one wants to go back...including the members that were originally anti-dcc. Membership also increased, rather quickly.
Respectfully, to each his own and DC is fine, but it just makes me wonder though if your membership's resistence to the idea is more out of "don't shake the status quo" and "If it's not broken, don't try to fix it" type of mood.
Antonio,First every member is well aware what DCC can do after all we are not cave men coming out of the cave for the first time..
We see NO real advantage to DCC on the club's layout as far as operation.Also we decided not to have sound due to the racket it would cause.Imagine 20-30 locomotives on the layout blowing horns,the prime mover sound etc.Not a very pleasant thought is it?
Then as a CLUB we must take in other considerations such as members with older brass steam locomotives,older brass diesels and other not so DCC friendly locomotives such as old Penn-Line,Hobbytown and Varney many still have brass wheels.
We looked at the overall cost for the members throttles,decoders,etc and then we put the REAL facts and figures base on MRSP and DISCOUNT prices before the membership and it was open for discussion and carried forward to the next months meeting for thought and more discussion.
At the third meeting the vote was taken and DCC was defeated by a 40-7 margin based on the presented facts,discussion and that it would not help operation.The 7 pro DCC'ers kept bringing the subject up till it was permanently tabled by popular vote..
As far as membership growth we have 47 members and 2 probationary members that recently joined.We have no problems getting and keeping new members because we are a DC layout..Of course in this area the closest DCC club is in Sandusky or Lima.Then there that small group in Tiffin that uses DCC but,its not a club.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
selector wrote: Yes, that is true. Or, how about this: on the same stretch of contiguous track (powered track between gaps), you have two locomotives, one parked, the other nudges slowly up to the rear coupler of the first, couples, and then you form a nearly perfect MU digitally by pressing a few buttons. Oh, one of the locos is a Challenger with 69" drivers, the other is a 4-8-4 variant with 80" drivers. Try doing that in DC.
Nobody is contending that DCC provides better multi-train operation.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Understood Brakie,
However, I must degree with the view that sound would cause a racket.
It baffles me how various modelers have made similar claims.................
As has been basically stated so many times before: whether it's 5 locomotives or 50 locomotives...........................
If everyone keeps the sound level turned down to a low or very low volume level then sound can be an enjoyable feature that "accents" a modeling session much like a gourmet sauce does to an Italian Pasta meal.
A rule of thumb for sound volume that that seems to work well is that other than "faintly" audible whistles or horns, sound equipped units (diesel or steam) should be barely audible once they're more than 15ft. linear distance from the modeler.
Just as in real life, once prototype diesel locomotives pass you at a grade crossing, the prime mover sounds fade into the distance and the horn is a distant echo.
A club that runs sound equipped units should not have a problem at all if the membership votes to stick with the "low volume" rule. Many of us have very nice home stereo systems with powerful amplifiers, yet it's likely that, with few exceptions, we don't BLAST them at full volume.
These are just my thoughts but I notice that a lot of modelers share similar views because sound has become so popular.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Antonio,I may get ream for this if its read by a club member..Anyway..There is a lot of older locomotives on the layout that whines(Tenshodo),growls,(Hobbytown and older steam locomotives including Varney,Penn-Line and of course brass steamers.
We believe that is enough racket for our ears to endure but,would never ever complain to the owners of those locomotives after all they have their rights as club members and the majority of us older guys doesn't mind after all we are use to those locomotives having coming up through the hobby in those years..
We have also thought of the rights of those members that wanted sound so,like all things sound was put to the vote and was defeated by a 37-10 vote.I suspect as more DC locomotives come with sound we will need to reopen the matter of sound and like always the members will have their say and vote.
dave 1194 wrote:" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. " okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram...
" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. "
okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram...
Thanks for all your forceful input, though.
Midnight Railroader wrote: dave 1194 wrote:" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. " okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram... After reading all the fine posts such as this one enumerating the reasons why I simply must switch to DCC (as if the posters would ever know, given the fact they've never been in my basement), I just wanted you to know that I would use DCC, except for one important reason:I don't want to.Thanks for all your forceful input, though.
What simply amazes me is how we operated for years without DCC..My goodness we couldn't run multiple trains,couldn't work the yard..I guess all of the early operation thinkers was wrong headed because they didn't have DCC to operate with.
What a load of arrogant(ignorant?) crap some DCC users will use to wave their silly DCC flag!
Midnight Railroader wrote:After reading all the fine posts such as this one enumerating the reasons why I simply must switch to DCC (as if the posters would ever know, given the fact they've never been in my basement), I just wanted you to know that I would use DCC, except for one important reason: I don't want to.
I don't want to.
Midnight,
And that is your perogative...
Good, stick with your cheeseball DC, makes one less person buying decoders so there is more for us in the computer age to use in our gear. Plus while both your hands are busy flipping toggles, my free hand is kicking back with a cold beer.
Ok, everyone, lets keep this civil. Peeps are starting to flame/rant.... Really, this is a personal choice. I love the discussion, but lets not get brutal. Both DC and DCC have advantages...and disadvantages.
Brian
SunsetLimited wrote: Good, stick with your cheeseball DC, makes one less person buying decoders so there is more for us in the computer age to use in our gear. Plus while both your hands are busy flipping toggles, my free hand is kicking back with a cold beer.
Please, at least come over to my house and operate my layout before you call my operating system cheesball. You are welcome at any time.
From my experience people who make ignorant posts like this one have little or no experience, skills or talent and only come on here to criticize others.
Also, if you are so far into the computer age, please post a link to your website or photo site so we can view your model railroad.
I agree with ShodowNix.. flame wars get nothing accomplished (except the locking and/or deletion of a thread)
I've seen DCC used really well (specifically on club layouts at trainshows), but DC does have its advantages (I don't have to do as much work to get an older loco to run).
I'm going to be using DC for the forseeable future - I can't afford a DCC system... yet. However, as soon as they arrive, I'm putting decoders into my fleet of locomotives. Partially because some of the members of the club I belong to have DCC layouts, and also so that I can prove to the other guys of the club (who are proposing - AFAIK - to wire our under construction layout as DC only) that DCC isn't really that hard to wire up. If it works the way I hope it will, the club layout will be DCC (using a Digitrax, or other system that can run DC on 00) and the club will provide one (1) simple decoder (eg the NCE D13SR) to each member who doesn't have any DCC-equipped locos so they can run on our layout. Or we'll just wire for both control schemes... Either way, I'm using my locos (and decoders) as the guinea pigs for the dual-mode running capability (Tom/tstage beat me to asking about them here).
Now, I don't hate DC (or DCC) - but I do like the advantages that DCC has over DC, especially with regard to being able to pick any loco and "assign" it as a helper to a struggling freight, or when weaving a locomotive through the servicing facility, without having to worry about whether or not I can cross this turnout here because that loco over there was just in the block I would be entering...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
SunsetLimited wrote: Midnight Railroader wrote: dave 1194 wrote:" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. " okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram... After reading all the fine posts such as this one enumerating the reasons why I simply must switch to DCC (as if the posters would ever know, given the fact they've never been in my basement), I just wanted you to know that I would use DCC, except for one important reason:I don't want to.Thanks for all your forceful input, though. Good, stick with your cheeseball DC, makes one less person buying decoders so there is more for us in the computer age to use in our gear. Plus while both your hands are busy flipping toggles, my free hand is kicking back with a cold beer.
Why are DCC-users so threatened by the idea that someone might not want to use DCC?
Midnight Railroader wrote:Why are DCC-users so threatened by the idea that someone might not want to use DCC?
I'm not threatened, nor do I want to push DCC down someone's throat. I personally like it because it makes MRRing more enjoyable for me.
Whichever system one chooses - DC or DCC - that's their choice and I can respect that. The problem lies when one starts criticizing another's choice or preference. It seems that we've sorta crossed that line.
Discussion and free dialogue are healthy and sometimes edifying. As others have said, let's keep this discussion civil and please stop making it such a personal one.
el-capitan wrote: SunsetLimited wrote: Good, stick with your cheeseball DC, makes one less person buying decoders so there is more for us in the computer age to use in our gear. Plus while both your hands are busy flipping toggles, my free hand is kicking back with a cold beer.Please, at least come over to my house and operate my layout before you call my operating system cheesball. You are welcome at any time. From my experience people who make ignorant posts like this one have little or no experience, skills or talent and only come on here to criticize others. Also, if you are so far into the computer age, please post a link to your website or photo site so we can view your model railroad.
Lighten up there a little El Capitan. It was a funny comment and I for one appreciate his humor. Unlike the liberal DC zealots I see lurking here.
Have a cheeseball on me
I must have missed the humorous part. Seems like a flame to me.
And I didn't think my post was offensive but if it was I appologize.
I'm a DCCite, but I also have doubts about sound. I am concerned about how having four or five trains with sound running in a 12x14 area is going to sound. I'm thinking that in the real world, I can hear one, or sometimes two (when I'm lucky) trains at a time. And the location of the sound makes sense. In a layout that surrounds me I'm wondering if the effect will be lost. Then again, I'm in N-scale, and on a buget, so maybe this is all just sour grapes!
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Cap, i never called your layout itself cheesy at all, i was calling DC cheesy and thats my opinion, just like the opinion of the original poster was that he wasn't impressed with DCC, thats his opinion.I also never said anyone had to use DC, i actually said the opposite, i could careless what you use. People who want to stay with DC thats fine, no problems with that, i used it for a very long time also, i just saw that i would never fully get the potential out of my layout with DC and switched. In my opinion there are only two real good excuses to not switch and they are a lack of money to upgrade and the other is the decoder install issues and that can be over come by doing a dual dc and dcc layout.
SunsetLimited wrote: el-capitan wrote: SunsetLimited wrote: Good, stick with your cheeseball DC, makes one less person buying decoders so there is more for us in the computer age to use in our gear. Plus while both your hands are busy flipping toggles, my free hand is kicking back with a cold beer.Please, at least come over to my house and operate my layout before you call my operating system cheesball. You are welcome at any time. From my experience people who make ignorant posts like this one have little or no experience, skills or talent and only come on here to criticize others. Also, if you are so far into the computer age, please post a link to your website or photo site so we can view your model railroad.Cap, i never called your layout itself cheesy at all, i was calling DC cheesy and thats my opinion, just like the opinion of the original poster was that he wasn't impressed with DCC, thats his opinion.I also never said anyone had to use DC, i actually said the opposite, i could careless what you use. People who want to stay with DC thats fine, no problems with that, i used it for a very long time also, i just saw that i would never fully get the potential out of my layout with DC and switched. In my opinion there are only two real good excuses to not switch and they are a lack of money to upgrade and the other is the decoder install issues and that can be over come by doing a dual dc and dcc layout.
If I were to make a wild generalization like "Stick with your cheesball PRR railroad, it leaves more ATSF stuff for me to buy" I would expect some PRR fans to be upset with this comment. Even if I wasn't talking about their layout specifically.
There are crappy DCC layouts and crappy DC layouts. There are good ones as well. Your post seemed to imply that all DC layouts are cheeseball. Which would be like saying all PRR layouts are cheeseball. It's sometimes true, but usually not. Im happy that you like DCC and that it works good for your situation. It does not work as good for my situation so I have not switched yet (I have a longer list that I will not get into now). Maybe in the future I will.
Regardless of what I like better, I just state what I prefer. When you call somebody elses equipment, railroad, benchwork, scenery, etc.. cheeseball, you have to expect some backlash.
SunsetLimited wrote: In my opinion there are only two real good excuses to not switch and they are a lack of money to upgrade and the other is the decoder install issues and that can be over come by doing a dual dc and dcc layout.
In my opinion there are only two real good excuses to not switch and they are a lack of money to upgrade and the other is the decoder install issues and that can be over come by doing a dual dc and dcc layout.
Since those are the only 2 reasons you can think of to not use DCC, I assume that by "cheesy" DC systems, you really mean the owners are "cheap" or "lazy". IMHO, "cheesy" is a poorly defined adjective with pretty negative connotations. If you don't care which system the others use, then why describe their choice negatively (twice)?
FWIW, my reasons for not using DCC for the present include decoder install issues in tiny 19th century engines in HO and HOn3, but also include that
1) my layout assumes solo operations
2) in the event that there is another operator, the layout design has very limited sharing of trackage in close time proximity. Each operator is normally working his particular area and section of the layout without intefering with the other.
3) I have a thorough understanding of DC (and DCC) wiring, and can easily make my DC system fit my operational needs.
Given the above environment, DCC's strengths will seldom be realized in my situation. At present, I simply have better things to do with my hobby time and money than to convert to a system that offers little advantage over what I already have.
If I rebuild to incorporate a Free-mo module or two, then I will have to change to DCC (or at least dual mode).
yours in informed choice
Fred W
\Now lets see..DC'ers can't drink beer while operating..
Geesh! DC'ers been doing that for years..Where do you think the idea came from?
BTW..Your unlearned childish comments is not winning you any points in fact they show your ignorance on how DC can work.
Can we move on...?!?
fwright wrote: SunsetLimited wrote: In my opinion there are only two real good excuses to not switch and they are a lack of money to upgrade and the other is the decoder install issues and that can be over come by doing a dual dc and dcc layout.Since those are the only 2 reasons you can think of to not use DCC, I assume that by "cheesy" DC systems, you really mean the owners are "cheap" or "lazy". IMHO, "cheesy" is a poorly defined adjective with pretty negative connotations. If you don't care which system the others use, then why describe their choice negatively (twice)?
I never said i couldn't think of other ones people have used, i said to me there were only 2 good ones. Why don't you re-read what i said, a lack of money is so not even the same thing as being cheap im not even sure how you got that out of that comment, cheap people usually refers to someone that has some money, i don't care the amount, but is very tight with it, a lack of money is usually due to some other outstanding financial obligations that makes justifying DCC tough. I also never said or implied that not wanting to install tons of decoders makes one lazy, it means some people hate to solder or deal with electronics, trust me, i know, i hate soldering.
As far as cheesy goes, you can interpret its meaning however you wish, im still going to use it when describing my opinion of operations with DC. Again, i really could careless what system YOU use to make your trains run, when i use the words i do about DC is from my own experience with it, feel free to describe it however you wish also.
tstage wrote: Can we move on...?!?
No, we need to wait until somebody's head pops up.
el-capitan wrote: tstage wrote: Can we move on...?!? No, we need to wait until somebody's head pops up.
Actually, if you look at the picture, BOTH heads are popped up because nobody is the winner in this discussion...
My apologies to the forum for feeding the troll. Inflammatory, ill-defined adjectives used repeatedly - I should have been smarter.
It really is too bad that we can't all be in the same room, around the same table, and have this conversation. I think that we would probably be somewhat more restrained in our hubris and barbed comments....and that goes for both sides of this issue. Seems like a few of us are flying off the proverbial handle and jumping to conclusions. Still, I like the tone so far, and I must say that I am happy no one has gone to sharply into the personal attacks...it is so easily done on this forum.
To address the question of DCC and sound, I have said numerous times in other threads that the decision to include a mute function (F8) was at the very least clever. I let my QSI decoders drift into a self-imposed quietude by disuse if I don't bother to use F8 with them. The QSI's pout, for want of a better word, and I believe the Tsunami's do as well. If you power the layout and do not engage that decoder before power-down, the decoder goes to a corner and sulks, quietly, until you call it by name/number in a subsequent session. I happen to like that feature because it means only three or four engines are making sounds at any one time. When an entire layout is abuzz, it is a real cacophony, and I don't think very pleasant.
Also, I would advise all would-be sound users to consider reducing the master volume on their systems, somewhere by near 50%. As stated a few posts earlier, no locomotive should be heard above others closer, and the further away they are, the less obtrusive the must be, otherwise all you have is a racket. So, sound is a double-edged sword; great if you got 'em, but not great when they're all sounding off.
And, not to sound disingenuous, I tip my hat at all you DC guys who stick to it. You know what works, you have built it yourself, and you get pleasure out of what you have. What else can this hobby or its membership encourage every modeler to do? Besides, the new BLI DC line is coming with sound on board, so much of this topic will be mute....er, moot.
There is room for everone, luddite, dilettante, master, designer, artiste, operator, craftsman, learner, historian, zealot,..aach, what's in a name, anyway!
selector wrote: To address the question of DCC and sound, I have said numerous times in other threads that the decision to include a mute function (F8) was at the very least clever. I let my QSI decoders drift into a self-imposed quietude by disuse if I don't bother to use F8 with them. The QSI's pout, for want of a better word, and I believe the Tsunami's do as well. If you power the layout and do not engage that decoder before power-down, the decoder goes to a corner and sulks, quietly, until you call it by name/number in a subsequent session. I happen to like that feature because it means only three or four engines are making sounds at any one time. When an entire layout is abuzz, it is a real cacophony, and I don't think very pleasant.Also, I would advise all would-be sound users to consider reducing the master volume on their systems, somewhere by near 50%. As stated a few posts earlier, no locomotive should be heard above others closer, and the further away they are, the less obtrusive the must be, otherwise all you have is a racket. So, sound is a double-edged sword; great if you got 'em, but not great when they're all sounding off.
I agree, things would sound alot better if everyone lowered the volumes on their gear a bit. I think it also depends on the layout size and such, we have a really large club layout so having a few sound locos on the tracks isn't that bad since everyone is usually spaced pretty far apart. We do also have a large exahust fan near the layout that gets kinda loud and really dampens the noise so a little higher volume is needed when the fan is on, overall i find the experience enjoyable though.