A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
you guys may think that until you realize you can pretty much recreate anything that REAL railroads do with DCC...
d
Hi. If a zombie can follow a locomotive that can run into another locomotive on the same "block" using DCC control, then he should be a happy zombie. No interlocking tower wannabee with DC block control every got two DC locos to kiss noses in the same block...unless he rewires the motors, of course.
I do see your point, especially in a yard. But the fellow acting like the interlocking tower guy doesn't get to play with trains, he just switches them. Mind you, with DCC, I can just as easily reach in and flick turnout points manually, or I can use a stationary decoder.
It is nice to see that more progress is being made in the DC world to get better realism. I don't see that as a waste of time or resources, and if it adds a late-life zing to DCers everywhere, great!
Signed
A happy zombie
i guess if i had a model railroad i'd want to recreate what actually occurs.
I think DCC rocks, but it can get you into trouble (and not just $$ trouble). I have to chuckle when the instructions say "You can operate up to X number of trains". I tried to run just two the other day (by myself) and it got ugly pretty quick! I know what the instructions meant to say, but it's tempting to operate a few at a time, and since most of us work alone, it can lead to trouble!
Personally, I have a mix of DC and DCC. Trains are DCC but everything else is DC (turnouts, etc.) I am not that electronically savy to wire all the accessories for DCC, nor do I want to. To me, I like the "personal" feeling of manually changing turnouts, etc. Also, it forces you to pay attention to what's going on.
I'd like to see that switch flipping guy run 2 switchers in the yard and also set up for the incomming freight on track 2-3?.
DCC allows the control of muliple locos, I can have 2 assingned on each knob of the DT400 for say working the yard. can align the turnouts for the incoming train and the operator can take it into the yard.
Years ago I used to enjoy sitting at a cab and flipping the block toggles. Does keep you on your toes. Once the train is out of sight from the cab the CTC is your only hope of knowing what's going on. Thought I would never get into DCC control, now I could never go back.
The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
Modeling B&O- Chessie Bob K. www.ssmrc.org
i don't know if anyone here is familiar with the Belt Railway of Chicago, but they have remote control switches to cross over on the yard leads from the main line, and also on the west end of the west receiving yards. all ya have to do is "tone up" the switch, check the route, throw it if ya have to (from the radio!), and pull! does that make ME a zombie because my engineer can get us lined up while we're still outside the yard, instead of stopping an 11,000 ton train just to check one switch on the other side of a curve?? that's what's better with dcc-it saves you time and you CAN recreate almost anything in the world of railroading.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
I've had both types of layouts and would much rather run the train than run the layout. I've kept one of my old control panels around to explain the difference to the non-train types and remind me how much extra wiring and stuff I don't need with DCC.
Tilden
Big Beast wrote: A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.
I watch trains railside and most all of the switches are controlled by the Dispatcher, someplace in Omaha. Except for some local switching, the railroads are run by sitting on the engine. We cannot do that trick in HO, but we can follow it around. How the person acts is either to his credit or detracts from his credit. I really like following the models around and enjoy diming the headlights for meets, blowing the whistle for crossings and ringing the bell around stations or areas that require that action. We really only get out what we put into something.
Home layouts and large club layouts are really different in operating procedures. If you watched a club that can run a hundred plus car train with mid and rear DPU's, you would appreciate DCC. It can actually allows manned or DPU helpers on large trains. Don't try this in DC mode.
Most prototype mainlines are controlled by a dispatcher and most mainline switches are controlled from many many miles away.
Most high quality DCC controller models can be run at 1 mph or less, which is important to me.
No matter which you choose, you can still have a lot of fun in DC or DCC.
Enjoy / Cheers
Big Beast wrote:A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. ... The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.
Let's see. There was a guy running a switcher in a yard, and a guy running a train out on the main line. I don't care who's running DC, who's running DCC or who's running wooden Brios with the good old 0-5-0. The guy running the switcher in the yard is going to be busier, like the engineer of a real yard engine, and the road engine guy will be, by comparison, not doing much more than watch mileposts go by. It's what they were doing, not how they were doing it, which makes up most of the difference.
If you've got 1 engine, then it doesn't matter operationally whether you're running DC or DCC. You can have 1 block, and you don't have to worry about other engines coming into it. As soon as you're sharing the space, though, then DCC starts to show its advantages. Also, a large club layout can have a lot of blocks, which allows for more independent train control under DC, but those of us with smaller home layouts don't have the luxury, realistically, of being able to block a layout like a large club.
And for those who say DCC is the greatest thing since sliced bread? Well, honestly, what do you see in sliced bread, anyway? Scratch-built bread is better in my book, even if I do have to cut it myself.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Big Beast wrote: A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie. Isn't it fortunate then that you don't have to buy DCC, run DCC, or evern look at it.Bob
Isn't it fortunate then that you don't have to buy DCC, run DCC, or evern look at it.
Bob
I went to the Chrysler Museum of Art and was very impressed by what I saw. I went to the arts and crafts store and bought some paint and canvas. So why don't my paintings look like what I saw in the museum? I used the same materials, so I should have the same results, right?
The same argument goes for DCC vs DC and this is in every scale. Either system run by a pro will look easy; both will be a handful if you don't have a clue. I use both ways on my garden RR as well as battery RC, either system gets a train down the line. DCC has advantages for multiple runs, DC is technologically simpler. I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable.
Apples to oranges, both taste good.
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
If you like flipping toggle switches better than running the engine then DC is the way to go!
But I would much rather run the engine and not have to worry if I had the track power on the track I was planning on using.
The real railroaders do not worry if there is track power on or not so I don't what to have to either.
And I can take any new visitor to my layout and in 5 minutes have them instructed how to run an engine and are able to take a train out on the line. No having to remember what toggle controls what track. That is worth more to me than anything, a new visitor to my layout having a ball!
BOB H - Clarion, PA
I went to my first show 2 years ago. Everyone was telling me the Digitrax system was the ONLY way to go. (just like the Mac people telling me Microsoft would go bust back in high school) There was a Digitrax "expert" there with a small layout. He had everything hooked through the Digitrax system. Trains, turnouts, signals. All run through a computer. I watched this guy off and on for 4 hours. He couldn't get ANYTHING to work. I didn't see the loco even move an inch, and he was supposed to be an expert with this stuff.
With that said, I will still be buying a DCC system just to run my trains. I probably WON'T be buying a Digitrax system. I just want to run a few trains, not become a programmer. It does not appear to be as simple as the companies make it out to be.
cmrproducts wrote: And I can take any new visitor to my layout and in 5 minutes have them instructed how to run an engine and are able to take a train out on the line. No having to remember what toggle controls what track.
Same on my DC layout. They simply need to ask the dispatcher for clearance, which is the same thing that they would have to do if it were DCC. The only toggles that the engineers on my layout throw is the one on the throttle to reverse direction.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Besides the obvious DCC advantage of having independent control of each loco, so I am running the locos instead of having to "control the trackwork", let's not forget with DCC you can individually tune *each* loco's performance.
For each loco I can set the starting voltage, mid throttle voltage and top throttle voltage. I can also add in a kick start voltage spike to get the loco moving from a standing start more dependably, I can add some momentum appropriate for that specific locomotive, with a different setting for acceleration and deceleration. I can tune the speed for forward and reverse in case the loco happens to run faster one direction than the other.
You can't easily do most of the above on straight DC. What you can do to tune a given loco in straight DC will involve fiddling with the mechanism, and it's difficult to get precise results.
For example, with DCC I can tune a yard goat to have a really nice slow end with just a touch of momentum. I can tune a road engine to have a more consistent speed throughout, and give it more momentum to simulate pulling a heavy train. And if I have two locos I want to consist together, I can make their behavior simular to they run together reasonably well, where that would be impossible on straight DC.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:DC for yard operations is fine - until you want to operate two locos on the same block at the same time doing different jobs. IMPOSSIBLE! You can do this with DCC with no problem.
Depends on the size of the yard. I have seen some double ended yards in DC that have a switcher assembling/breaking down Westbounds and another assembling/breaking down eastbounds with little or no "toggle flipping."
More difficult but not impossible.
Big Beast wrote:A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.
Ya know, BB, I used to think the same thing about cruise control. I didn't want it or have anything to do with it because I thought it would make me lazy behind the wheel. Well...I actually found the opposite to be true.
Cruise control on the highway helps make me more alert and more relaxed because I don't have to constantly look down at the speedometer to see how fast I'm going. Since my foot isn't on the gas the whole time, I can actually stretch my leg out so that I'm more comfortable. (That's nice, since I'm 6'-4") And, I can glance around and enjoy the sights more and feel more refreshed at the end of a journey.
From the outside, cruise control wasn't appealing...until I got behind the wheel and tried it myself. BB, before you dismiss something completely, give it a try first before you come to any steadfast conclusions. You might find that the "zombie" running on the main was able to concentrate on other things come up that he wouldn't have if he were turning blocks on and off.
But, it's entirely your choice...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
To each their own... I'm not really a DCC person either, though I own one DCC steam loco that I like to run once in a while, but seriously doubt I'll ever be into it anymore than that. The simpler something is the better off I am...
Tracklayer
Tracklayer wrote: To each their own... I'm not really a DCC person either, though I own one DCC steam loco that I like to run once in a while, but seriously doubt I'll ever be into it anymore than that. The simpler something is the better off I am...Tracklayer
If your layout gets very big, that means you will be wanting DCC. The DC is simpler thing is a fallacy, in my opinion.
Jeff But it's a dry heat!
Big Beast wrote:A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie. <>
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Well as someone pointed out, it sounds like the real point is you'd rather have a layout where you ran a yard, rather than ran a road train. In DC or DCC, the guy running a mainline train isn't going to be as busy as a yard guy.
As far as the yard guy looking like a tower operator, he may have looked that way, but he wasn't acting like one. Real tower operators control turnouts, not power blocks. A yard in DCC would operate much more like the real one - you could run several engines doing different switching tasks at once, have a mainline train come thru the yard (or arrive or depart) all without having to worry about going a few inches too far into the next block and losing control of your engine (which usually ends up with the engineer picking up his engine and moving it back to the correct block...something that rarely happens in the prototype.)
Tracklayer wrote:The simpler something is the better off I am...Tracklayer
Tracklayer,
True. But I've seen DC layouts that appeared to me more complex that using DCC. One could just as equally argue that DCC isn't that complex either.
Again, it's entirely your choice...
tangerine-jack wrote: I went to the Chrysler Museum of Art and was very impressed by what I saw. I went to the arts and crafts store and bought some paint and canvas. So why don't my paintings look like what I saw in the museum? I used the same materials, so I should have the same results, right?The same argument goes for DCC vs DC and this is in every scale. Either system run by a pro will look easy; both will be a handful if you don't have a clue. I use both ways on my garden RR as well as battery RC, either system gets a train down the line. DCC has advantages for multiple runs, DC is technologically simpler. I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. Apples to oranges, both taste good.
The bold line in true, to a point. The technology of DC is simpler. The implementation (except in a very simple case) with DCC is simpler (in my opinion).
When I was a kid we ran DC and it was enjoyable then again thats all they had, but as for the recent yrs when we (dad and I got back into it) we went DCC right away. Now we upgraded to a better systems more and mor elocomotives are becoming Decoderized. When I started the new layout I wanted something more hand son then use the buttons on the throttle to control everything so I planned on using tortises with DPDT switches to control them. DCC is nice in some area but when it comes to throwing a switch lets just say i have a childish attitude and want to do it. The sound of a switch flipping makes me feel well alive and not like a zombie as stated. You can always combine the new with the old in some areas but be careful so you dont short anything out.
Vail and Southwestern RR wrote:For throwing switches I don't think there is a one-size-fits-all answer. On the same layout anything from totally manual, to toggles, to DCC controlled might be appropriate.
I don't think that there is a "one size fits all" anything in model railroading. Locations, railroad, scenery construction, track gauge, scale, operation, siwtch operation, layout size etc. are all variables that we choose. None of them are "one size fits all" and the same goes for systems for controlling trains.