Having used DC way back when we used car batteries, I can relate to the change to DCC.
My particular case was that a neighbor who is a fabulus scenery guy has not a clue to which toggle to flip for anything.
After changing to DCC the neighbor is now running trains.
Of course as fate would have it he developed Parkinsons so not able to participate.
I just realized there is not a spell check on this page. Maybe DCC can cure that!
Clifsfrr
I have a DCC layout, and I would never go back.
Not long ago, I had a 25 car coal train stall on the grade, at the back of the layout. I was just ready to get on my knees and crawl under the layout, to give it a shove. Then I remembered DCC. I just sent another loco around to the other side of the layout, came up behind the stalled coal train, and gave it a shove up the hill. Try that with DC.
My layout is 24 feet long, with a double track, twice around, mainline. It's great to be able to run several trains, at the same time, at different speeds, blowing the horn on each loco separately. I have four crossovers between the mains, at various places on the layout. I can start two trains going, then run a third train, using two 24 car passing sidings. Try that with DC. And no switch flipping go'in on. I'm not into switch flipping.
My passenger trains turn on the bell as they approach the station platform. Freight trains activate the bell when passing through the passenger platforms, just like the real trains. Can't do that with DC.
If you can't run two or three trains at the same time, you probably can't walk and chew gum at the same time either.
" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. "
okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram...
Tracklayer wrote: The simpler something is the better off I am...Tracklayer
The simpler something is the better off I am...
Tracklayer
This is exactly why one should *prefer* DCC to straight DC on all but the smallest of layouts.
Wiring is simpler, running trains is simpler ... on my layout for example, if someone comes to visit, I just hand them a wireless throttle with the loco cab number dialed up on it, and say, "have fun!"
Try that on a basement-sized DC layout.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
DCC is simpler than DC, once you get comfortable with it. My layout is 8 by 24, double track, with over 40 turnouts and crossovers, and is just one giant block. No toggle switches. There are only five toggle switches on my entire board. Three turn off the power on the three coach tracks, so the lights in the passenger cars go out. The other two turn off power to the engine storage tracks. Most of my yard switches are manual, except the inbound, and the runaround, and the engine tracks. All mainline switches are powered, and use small push buttons from Radioshack. Simplicity.
jfugate wrote: This is exactly why one should *prefer* DCC to straight DC on all but the smallest of layouts.Wiring is simpler, running trains is simpler ...
Wiring is simpler, running trains is simpler ...
I wouldn't even include small layouts as being more simple to wire in DC - unless you are talking a 4x8 oval. Your average small space switching puzzle layout (which are really popular here in the UK) has to have loads of blocks or isolated spurs - unless you only run one loco at a time! Having wired one of these types of layout for DC I know which I'd choose any day ...
... and as for running a small layout DCC makes things so much more straight forward. You can pull off some moves on DCC that would simply be impossible on DC.
The *only* disadvantage of DCC I can now see is the cost, and like all electronics thats coming down all the time.
that happened on one of the guys in the MRR club i belong to. He has a huge (DC) basement layout. One time when we were there, we had two trains running, with a dead block in between - well except for one time when the owner of the layout forgot to flip cabs, so I had control of the one train, and the other guy operating had control of mine... that didn't work out so well...
It was just about then that I decided that when I can afford (both financially and spacially) to have a layout, I'm going to grab DCC straight away. However, I have DC right now just so I can see the locos I have run (not to mention DCC might be a little overkill for 3' of straight track).
His reason for not switching to DCC -> a lot of old (brass) locomotives that he likes to run, and the 10 miles of wire (ok, so it might not be that much...) beneath the layout that would have to be redone for DCC. Now, he did admit that if he was going to rip out this layout and build a new one, he would probably go DCC over DC, and that he was more against re-wiring everything than adding decoders to everything...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Oh, God, here we go again!
Let's just all get along and operate what we want, okay? Hello?
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
While there is a learning curve to any DCC system, learning to operate trains with one is not as difficult as it is implied on these forums. If it was, DCC would have been dead on delivery.
Most current DCC 'starter sets' can be installed in just a few minutes. If the installer already has a decoder equipped locomotive or even a DC loco with some systems, he/she will be operating in just a few minutes more.
It took me less than 10 minutes to attach my Digitrax Zephyr to an earlier DC version of my BRVRR. My first 'cornfield meet' was a true revelation. There is no turning back!
To date, my turnouts are operated with ground throws or electrically with standard Atlas slide switches. I have no need for 'accessory' decoders. I have added a DT400 throttle for portability and recently a LocoBuffer and Decoder Pro for decoder programming.
Complexity breeds problems, particularly if the operator does not understand the system he is working with or if his/her expertise is granted rather than earned or learned.
Problems of any type with model railroading is the reason forums like this one exist. It is the first place I turn when I have a problem I can not solve for myself.
Whichever system of operation or control is used, DCC or DC, the object of the hobby is to have fun. Pursue the object everyone!
My 2-cents worth, sorry.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
Many new releases in motive power are coming with DCC already installed, and can also be used on regular DC. So we may not have any choice in the future, you are going to have DC locos whether you want it or not.
I have probably 100 or so older DC locos, I doubt if I'll convert them to DCC. I don't actually have a layout, do any operating on HO scale modules with our local club. But I have also been accumulating some On30 rolling stock, the latest have come with DCC and some with sound.
I hope to make a portable On30 layout in the near future, and look forward to being able to use my DCC locos and hear their sounds!
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
dave 1194 wrote:" I normally run straight DC because it's what I grew up with and I am comfortable. " okay... following that logic, why do you have (or use at a library or work, or whatever) a computer and obtain access to the internet? chances are that if you grew up without DCC you grew up without the internet, so why such a luddite when it comes to enhancing your model railroad experience? worrying about throwing switches and all that nonsense for electrical "blocks" simply detracts from the fine art of yard switching. how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block?? just my two cents, and i hope this doesnt seem like a nastygram...
Nasty, no, not at all! A very valid point. I am forced at work etc. to use a computer, I don't like them, and they fail more often than they work. They certainly are not my preferred method of getting things done, but I have no choice if I want to interact with the modern world and conduct business.
My model railroad is not constrained by the modern world, I choose if I want to find a bad wire by looking, or spend hours diagnosing a DCC gremlin (is it the encoder, decoder, uploader, downloader, programming, PC, PCC, LSD, NBA or just a bad wire?). I don't have to be forced in my hobby to do anything I don't want to.
I take comfort in knowing, I mean positively knowing, that the #4 red wire to track 7 is soldered properly to the rail and when I throw the selector switch electricity will pass through to the loco. Sure, it can be a pain to route select with DC, but I do feel more connected to my layout that way and I can pretend to be an overpaid corporate sell out union dispatcher making 200K a year by throwing switches (no offence to real railroad workers, it's just my fantasy, that's all).
I am certainly not saying DCC is crap, I use it regularly and enjoy its benefits, but I don't feel comfortable with the technology. Last year a photo journalist with the Chrysler museum came by to do a photo shoot, I am now forever in print trying to get my DCC loco to communicate with transmitter. Had I used DC, the train would have been running for the photo shoot.
DCC makes wiring the layout very simple (a few feed blocks and some reversing loop tricks is all it takes), I'm not as sure about operations as a whole. What's the difference between throwing a switch on the DC panel as opposed to pushing buttons on the DCC control pad? I have to work either way, one to shunt electricity, the other to program a gizmo to communicate with a loco. I just feel more comfortable shunting electricity.
No harm, no foul. Some like technology, some like the old skool way. If you enjoy the hobby, then who really cares?
"how can you think five or six moves ahead of time when you're worried about your engine losing power in the next block??"
Easy, it's called planning your operating session. It's like playing a game to me, I enjoy it a lot. Besides, I worry about my DCC engines stopping for no apparent reason, so what's the difference?
The Dixie D Short Line "Lux Lucet In Tenebris Nihil Igitur Mors Est Ad Nos 2001"
jfugate wrote: Tracklayer wrote: The simpler something is the better off I am...Tracklayer This is exactly why one should *prefer* DCC to straight DC on all but the smallest of layouts.Wiring is simpler, running trains is simpler ... on my layout for example, if someone comes to visit, I just hand them a wireless throttle with the loco cab number dialed up on it, and say, "have fun!"Try that on a basement-sized DC layout.
Hi Joe. As a matter of fact my layout is small, so it's really not an issue for me. Maybe one day when I have a larger layout I might have more of an interest in it. Until then I'll stick with DC.
simon1966 wrote:Does anyone else think this was an obvoious attempt to stir up the hornets nest and get a bunch of people buzzing? I am sure that our Beast friend is having a good laugh at some folks expense on this one.
Simon,
I had the very same thought when I first responded to this thread. Seems more obvious now that it's on the 3rd page and no response from BB.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
NeO6874 wrote:<> <>His reason for not switching to DCC -> a lot of old (brass) locomotives that he likes to run, and the 10 miles of wire (ok, so it might not be that much...) beneath the layout that would have to be redone for DCC. Now, he did admit that if he was going to rip out this layout and build a new one, he would probably go DCC over DC, and that he was more against re-wiring everything than adding decoders to everything...
<>His reason for not switching to DCC -> a lot of old (brass) locomotives that he likes to run, and the 10 miles of wire (ok, so it might not be that much...) beneath the layout that would have to be redone for DCC. Now, he did admit that if he was going to rip out this layout and build a new one, he would probably go DCC over DC, and that he was more against re-wiring everything than adding decoders to everything...
That myth about needing special industrial-grade wiring for DCC is pretty much baloney. Like most modellers, when I switched to DCC I just removed the two wires going from one DC power pack to my control panel and re-attached the two wires to my DCC unit. Each block was already set up with a center-off DPDT switch, so I just replaced one DC cab with a DCC one. That way each block could be either DC or DCC. That's it, except for hooking up one block with an extra DPDT switch so it could be used as a programming track.
Plus, almost all new engines at the LHS are made for "plug and play" or "drop-in" decoders, about as easy as it gets to convert to DCC - pull out the dummy plug, plug in a decoder!!
wjstix wrote: NeO6874 wrote:<> <>His reason for not switching to DCC -> a lot of old (brass) locomotives that he likes to run, and the 10 miles of wire (ok, so it might not be that much...) beneath the layout that would have to be redone for DCC. Now, he did admit that if he was going to rip out this layout and build a new one, he would probably go DCC over DC, and that he was more against re-wiring everything than adding decoders to everything... That myth about needing special industrial-grade wiring for DCC is pretty much baloney. Like most modellers, when I switched to DCC I just removed the two wires going from one DC power pack to my control panel and re-attached the two wires to my DCC unit. Each block was already set up with a center-off DPDT switch, so I just replaced one DC cab with a DCC one. That way each block could be either DC or DCC. That's it, except for hooking up one block with an extra DPDT switch so it could be used as a programming track. Plus, almost all new engines at the LHS are made for "plug and play" or "drop-in" decoders, about as easy as it gets to convert to DCC - pull out the dummy plug, plug in a decoder!!
I understand that, and I bet he does too. Now, I'm no expert in DC (or DCC) wiring, but from the looks of the wiring he had exposed, he also had turnout throws directly wired to the power bus. Provided I was understanding him correctly, he would hav had re-run some (or all) of his power lines because of the way in which it was originally wired (10ish years ago if I remember right).
Anyway, it really doesn't matter in his case. While I agree that DCC would probably be beneficial in that layout, but since he's had it working on DC so well (and has had the time to perfect the control) I don't blame him for mot wanting to swap over to DCC.
I don't really see the point of arguing DC vs. DCC for old/established layouts. I eman the owners of those layouts have probably had the time to perfect everything and get it working "just so". However, I would argue the benefit of DCC over DC on a newly built/under construction layout (except for like an oval with no sidings... then DCC is overkill)
The thing that frustrates me about DCC is that it takes away all the fun I used to have tracing hundreds of feet of wiring to find a short. I sure miss that. And I miss having to run back and forth to a bank of toggle switches to make sure the power in the next block is on before my train gets there.
And who can forget the fun of accidentally running past your block so now someone else has control of your train? Boy, what a treat that always was.
Yeah, now I just waste time watching my trains run smoothly around the layout, Usually two or three at a time. It's so dull doing that from the same hand-held throttle. I hate it... really I do.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
What a silly thread!
The OP watched two operators, one with DCC and one with DC, and decided from that to write off DCC. Seems to me that folks who are pre-disposed to not want DCC are going to find it to be "sour grapes" regardless. I actually tried DCC on other layouts before I swicthed from DC. But hey, why do research?
Honestly, I remember a club from another state (which shall remain nameless) who had DCC and did a rotten job promoting it. Bad trackage, bad trains, bad wiring... The DCC system did what it's supposed to do when there's a short; it shut down to protect the electronics. So the layout was down half the time. And operators yelled "Digitrax is down again!" No, it should be "Our crappy wiring and/or oversized metal wheelsets and/or poorly laid track caused another short!" I use Digitrax and have never had it "go down." It does do the 1-second shut down if I do a dumb thing like drop a screwdriver across the rails, but I lay my track well.
DCC may be a little unforgiving of bad track, bad wiring, and out-of-gauge-oversized-flange wheels, but then, proper tracklaying, wiring, and rolling stock maintenance fixes all of that. It also makes operating much more enjoyable no matter what system you use.
As for operating, you just can't beat controlling just your train instead of a whole section of track.
I recommened those on the fence about DCC consider, next time they're at a club or show with a well-operating DCC layout, to ask to give it a shot. Try it; see if you like it. If not, drive on!
This November, my layout will be at the NC State Fairgrounds in Raleigh for the Neuse River Valley Moel RR Show. If you're there, you're welcome to try out Digitrax DCC on my layout.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
People said the same thing about Thomas Edison and his new-fangled light bulb -- "Who needs it? We've been using candles and kerosene lanterns for years and years, and don't need no 'lectric light!"
cacole wrote: We've been using candles and kerosene lanterns for years and years, and don't need no 'lectric light!"
We've been using candles and kerosene lanterns for years and years, and don't need no 'lectric light!"
DC for layout power has been king for many, many years. But, DCC isn't the first control system to have come out for model railroads. Anybody remember 'Astrac'? The Astrac system sent radio signals through the rails to special recievers in the locomotives which could each be controlled independantly of each other, even in the same block. Sound familiar? The problem was that each reciever had to be specially tuned (which was a PITA!). The new system (DCC) took what was already there and improved it and made it much simpler to use.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Some people hate to admit it, but they are afraid of anything new. Others are totally intimidated by electronics or anything they even "think" is electronic. So, they quite naturally will shy away from DCC. If they are happy with that....so be it, have fun, it is OK, it is your life and you have a perfect right to do as you please with this hobby.
What I prefer to do is help those who "want" to learn DCC or basic electronics, by not talking "down" to them...that is a real turn-off to many people, so we must always remember that communication via the PC is very impersonal......choice of words and how we present our opinions is critical if we wish not to "turn someone off".
Have a great day everyone...it's Friday!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote:Well this morning I recommended DCC over DC due to the size of the layout and multiple train operation solo of course..I could not phantom the solo operation he wanted in DC.At best it would be a 2-3 man operation...DCC shines in this application.
Larry for President!!!
NeO6874 wrote: His reason for not switching to DCC -> a lot of old (brass) locomotives that he likes to run, and the 10 miles of wire (ok, so it might not be that much...) beneath the layout that would have to be redone for DCC. Now, he did admit that if he was going to rip out this layout and build a new one, he would probably go DCC over DC, and that he was more against re-wiring everything than adding decoders to everything...
Well, the old brass engines probably would be difficult to convert to DCC, and might not run well enough to be worth it. I'll take that one as a valid excuse. From my experience, running a DC engine on DCC as Engine Zero works very poorly.
But, the wiring thing really doesn't fly. You can take a DCC system and plug it right into the wires for one cab of a DC system, and then just set all the blocks to that cab. Done. Yes, things would be better if you pulled out the mass of linguine that supports DC block wiring. (Even more important if you're using Angel Hair, because the thin wires are causing unacceptable voltage drop.) But the point is that you can put DCC on to a DC system very easily.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
First, I want to point out that the original post in this thread is retarded and doesn't seem to be based on anything.
wm3798 wrote: The thing that frustrates me about DCC is that it takes away all the fun I used to have tracing hundreds of feet of wiring to find a short. I sure miss that. And I miss having to run back and forth to a bank of toggle switches to make sure the power in the next block is on before my train gets there.And who can forget the fun of accidentally running past your block so now someone else has control of your train? Boy, what a treat that always was.Yeah, now I just waste time watching my trains run smoothly around the layout, Usually two or three at a time. It's so dull doing that from the same hand-held throttle. I hate it... really I do.Lee
You know what frustrates me about DC. I hate that when I start an ops session I don't have to crawl under the layout to find out what engine is on track 3 of my hidden staging yard, with DC all I do is route power to track 3 and turn on a throttle, it takes all the fun out of it. I also hate the fact that with DC if someone misses a red signal his train just stops at the block boundary instead of getting in a head-on collision, thus destroying 2 brass locomotives and costing me thousands. Destruction is way more interesting. I hate the fact that I can easily diagnose and fix any electrical problem on my layout and get replacement parts from home depot or radio shack. I would much rather send electronic components in for warranty work. I hate the fact that I don't have to clean my track on an hourly basis. I hate that when I buy a brass steam loco I can just put it on the track and run it. It would be way more prototypical to open it up first and install a bunch of electronic components in it. Then, three weeks later put it on the track.
Please just take my post as sarcasm. I realize why you guys enjoy DCC but alot of these posts really seem condescending, as if those of us who CHOOSE to use DC are not understanding something. We get it. We understand. We like DC. It's not a step down. We just like it better.
And as far as the "toggle flipping" term that has been thrown around here, hasn't toggle flipping been replaced with "button pushing" for DCC? I would really be intrigued to compare the total amount of "flipped toggles" to "buttons pushed" in a typical operating session.
Now that I think of it, I use rotary selector switches. I guess I don't need to "flip toggles" on my DC layout.
Check out the Deming Sub by clicking on the pics:
Big Beast wrote: A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.
A few days ago I watched a guy run a DCC train on a club layout. I watched him walk around following the train. I then looked over at the other guy working the yard with DC hearing the clicking from the switches turning blocks on and off flipping switches. I turned back to look at the guy with the DCC. As I watched I realised it wasnt for me. The guy working the yard looked like some tower dispatcher directing the yard while the guy with the (remote control ) looked like a zombie.
LOL. This guys obviously from the DC thread and tried to start a flame war. He got you guys hook, line and sinker. Well I didn't fall for it
And the comment from "Redneck"....well obviously he is one.
MisterBeasley wrote:...But, the wiring thing really doesn't fly. You can take a DCC system and plug it right into the wires for one cab of a DC system, and then just set all the blocks to that cab. Done. Yes, things would be better if you pulled out the mass of linguine that supports DC block wiring. (Even more important if you're using Angel Hair, because the thin wires are causing unacceptable voltage drop.) But the point is that you can put DCC on to a DC system very easily.
I think you hit the nail on the head there Mr. B. The wiring I saw was (wild guess) 20AWG (sub)mains with 22AWG feeders. Although this was just the wiring within a block. I don't know if he had 18/16 (or heavier) AWG mains from the power source(s).
I hope that for our club we decide with DCC, or at least wire it in such a way as to run either/or. I hate to think what might happen if we wire it for DC, and then decide to go to DCC and find that all the wiring is sub-par for DCC... I think DCC would be really sweet to see in a yard/engine terminal/passenger terminal (and I mean a big one, like NYC's Grand Central), with locos all over the place going every which way, coming in from their most recent run, getting ready for their upcoming run, switching cars as the express passes through, etc...