I consider myself fortunate to have an outstanding LHS, the Train Station in Columbus. They are friendly, well stocked, reasonbly priced and always willing to help. They have been in business at their current location for almost 30 years. They began in downtown but apparently the rent drove them to their current location in north Columbus. The fact that they are an A+ LHS doesn't change the fact they still have to compete for my dollar. I take advantage of internet bargains when I can but still buy a lot of myself from them. I know I can get the basic supplies there anytime I need it and they will gladly order something from Walthers when I need something oddball.
I've seen all kinds of LHSes and understand the horror stories some have posted about their own LHS. Some businesses just don't seem to understand that a customer is under no obligation to do business with them and think they don't have serve the customers needs to stay in business. Most with that attitude don't.
I want to challenge the assumption that the Internet stores are big. My guess, is that with a couple of exceptions, the operations are smaller than an average LHS. The thing about the Internet is you can appear to be big, without in fact being so.
I had a vitamin business that went head to head with the big boys--in fact my customers thought I was as big as any. In a time when $6 Billion was the total market share, we were only grossing $2 million. But our web presence was huge.
My guess there are maybe one or two Internet hobby shops bigger than that--most being Mom and Pop 3-4 person operations.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
dirtyd79 wrote:I think hobby shops are disappearing largely at their own hand. Before the internet I had to put up with goofballs who only want to be open every odd tuesday in june or some goofy hours and only cater to what the owner likes or were hidden all the way out in the middle of nowhere. Thanks to the internet we can now buy anything we want at almost any time of day from the comfort of our own home. Sure the flat earth society will cry but oh well let them live in their prehistoric world. The rest of us will be running our trains.
I totally agree dirty! This is a capitalistic/free market society, which is very Darwinian. If you can't adpat to changing times. too bad for you. The vast majority of "hobby shops" I have visited in my life consisted of some cranky old man who doesn't seem to want to help people out and has a crappy inventory, or it's run by some young kid who doesn't know a damn thing about trains. There are a precious few stores that have a good stock (or willing to order in a timely manner) and knowledgeable staff. I live near one, thank god! They will survive the internet "black death". The rest, like I said, brought it on themselves.
John Busby wrote: Simple the Internet traders with their ridiculously low prices and hobbyists not willing to pay the prices a real hobby shop has to charge have killed the real hobby shops.
Yes, this is how our free market economy works.
And I like it that way.
John Busby wrote: Hi oliverSimple the Internet traders with their ridiculously low prices and hobbyists not willing to pay the prices a real hobby shop has to charge have killed the real hobby shops.I do not believe our hobby is safe in these traders hands they cannot and do not give what I call real service and the trouble will start when people want that again as they will.But it will be to late the real hobby shops will be gone.regards John
Hi oliver
Simple the Internet traders with their ridiculously low prices and hobbyists not willing to pay the prices a real hobby shop has to charge have killed the real hobby shops.
I do not believe our hobby is safe in these traders hands they cannot and do not give what I call real service and the trouble will start when people want that again as they will.
But it will be to late the real hobby shops will be gone.
regards John
There is nothing ridiculous about low prices. The e-tailers are in competition with the LHS. They can't offer the service and convenience the LHS can but it can better them in price. That is how they entice customers. Nothing ridiculous about that. As a customer, it's not for me to be concerned about who wins or loses in this competition. I want the best value for my money. I weigh both price and service when making that determination. Some e-tailers do give good service. Tony's Train Exchange is absolutely outstanding in that regard. I've had good experiences with Trainworld as well. Through my error, not theirs, I ordered two dozen of the wrong uncouplers. They took them back, no questions asked.
I don't see the LHS vs. e-tailers as an either or proposition. For now and the forseable future there is a place for both. There is no doubt that some LHSes can't survive in the current market conditions. An LHS needs a decent size customer base. For whatever reason, model railroading seems to thrive in pockets rather than being widespread. I live in a rural area but I am close to three decent sized towns, none of which has an LHS that carries MR stuff. There was a guy who tried to make a go of a very small MR shop but his selection was so small it wasn't worth the 1/2 hour one way trip to go there. He couldn't afford to keep a decent supply of stuff because his customer base was so small. A real Catch-22 situation. The LHSes that do exist in the area apparently have found there isn't sufficient demand to carry even a small selection of MR stuff. Now I have to drive an hour each way to get to my LHS which used to be 10 minutes from my old house. It used to be I could forget something and turnaround and go back for it. Not any more.
The LHS will continue to exist as long as the MR community votes with its dollars to keep them in business. The marketplace will serve our needs. For some of us in remote areas, we will have to choose between a long drive to the LHS or waiting several days for an internet order to arrive. That forces us to plan ahead and always have everyday stuff like track, ballast, paint etc. on hand.
DFerg wrote:I simply have to disagree with those of you that say that ordering by internet is more convenient then going to your LHS. I live in small town/rural Eastern Ontario (Maxville area to be exact) and am fortunate to have two LHS in the area. The closest is in Cornwall, which right on the International border and about a half hour away from the Quebec border. When we go into town, about once a week, I usually go in and stock up on simple, everyday use stuff at this shop. Small LHS that don't really specialize in MRing are great for doing this stuff. This shop in particular is pretty good at keeping a fair size inventory of these useful things, that I really couldn't see my self getting on the net and buying. For my larger purchases I go to Lark Spur Line in Merrickville (about an hours drive, but worth it) which specialises in trains. Only if they don't have the item will I consider going to the net. Call me old fashion, by I firmly believe that the face to face interaction with the shop owner/cashier is a lot better than going on the net, browsing threw endless pages to find what you want. Duncan
I simply have to disagree with those of you that say that ordering by internet is more convenient then going to your LHS. I live in small town/rural Eastern Ontario (Maxville area to be exact) and am fortunate to have two LHS in the area. The closest is in Cornwall, which right on the International border and about a half hour away from the Quebec border. When we go into town, about once a week, I usually go in and stock up on simple, everyday use stuff at this shop. Small LHS that don't really specialize in MRing are great for doing this stuff. This shop in particular is pretty good at keeping a fair size inventory of these useful things, that I really couldn't see my self getting on the net and buying. For my larger purchases I go to Lark Spur Line in Merrickville (about an hours drive, but worth it) which specialises in trains. Only if they don't have the item will I consider going to the net. Call me old fashion, by I firmly believe that the face to face interaction with the shop owner/cashier is a lot better than going on the net, browsing threw endless pages to find what you want.
Duncan
Even though I live in Ottawa, and there even is a hobby shop just down the road, I don't mind a weekend drive to Merrickville. Technically, Merrickville is just outside the city limits, but it is a nice drive in the "country".
The nearest hobby shop is great for glue or paint, but if you blink, you'll miss the model railroad section. They do come out to Railfair, but their inventory is still rather limited. There is another, larger hobby shop down in Vanier, but still, I find their selection is limited. Takes almost as long to get there from here as to go to Lark Spur Line.
The internet is a great asset, as you can deal with anyone anywhere in the world. You can compare prices, and even see products you may not even know exist. But the personal contact is missing. Speaking directly to someone and explaining what you want, or want to do, is easier and faster than email and browsing web pages. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but nothing is more descriptive than holding something in your hands and examining it. It's like buying a TV by comparing it's picture to others, or listening to speakers before buying.
MAbruce wrote:Humm. New guy coming in on a Friday to stoke what is usually hot button issue (LHS vs Internet). Is it me, or is there something very familiar about this?
This has a very familiar tune....All of a sudden I think some-ones winding up a vox pop for maybe their own particular reasons...........
The LHS here in Georgia are down to a bare minimum. The only one worth a darn is 50 miles away from Athens, GA where I live. Trainmaster in Duluth, GA is fairly good sized.
Much of the problem seems to be, even with Trianmaster, that "kits" are going "out of style." Instant gratification generation is the problem. I think when all the OF's die off it's going to be "if it doesn't plug together forget it."
I'm 74 and definitely part of the OF generation! I can remember building stuff that all you got were some trucks, couplers and a bunch of sticks. I keep looking for the side dumping all metal ore car I put together 35 years ago but to no avail.
I think it's TV, remote controls, shoot'em up with the badge shows and Twinkies that are killing the hobby. I mean, when you get in this hobby, you have to squat to get under the track table and nobody is willing to do that anymore. Besides they might miss another rerun of CSI Miami!
Metro Red Line wrote: CAZEPHYR wrote: I resided in the greater Los Angeles area for over thirty years and the extremely large population supports the train shops very well, but several have went out of business there also recently. The LHS do much better with a large population, but there are signs that the Los Angeles market is not doing so well recently. Allied is moving their store and has advertised their store building for lease. Both Longs and Trainquest were not able to continue last year and folded. And at least two new hobby (train) shops have opened up in the past five years. Where did you hear Allied was moving? Where will theyt be moving to? They own their building don't they? I mean it was custom-built to resemble Union Station!
CAZEPHYR wrote: I resided in the greater Los Angeles area for over thirty years and the extremely large population supports the train shops very well, but several have went out of business there also recently. The LHS do much better with a large population, but there are signs that the Los Angeles market is not doing so well recently. Allied is moving their store and has advertised their store building for lease. Both Longs and Trainquest were not able to continue last year and folded.
I resided in the greater Los Angeles area for over thirty years and the extremely large population supports the train shops very well, but several have went out of business there also recently. The LHS do much better with a large population, but there are signs that the Los Angeles market is not doing so well recently. Allied is moving their store and has advertised their store building for lease. Both Longs and Trainquest were not able to continue last year and folded.
And at least two new hobby (train) shops have opened up in the past five years.
Where did you hear Allied was moving? Where will theyt be moving to? They own their building don't they? I mean it was custom-built to resemble Union Station!
The moving plan for Allied came from friends who know them and I viewed the advertisement of the building for lease. Brian or Allen do own the building and no real reason has been given to the public for the move. Sorry I don't know. It might actually be they need more space since they do the Station 56 products also.
Unless plans have changed, they are moving a block or so from their present location.
jpkazarian wrote: In Texas and Oklahoma, we have a chain store called Hobby Lobby that sells all kinds of hobby activity goods, including model trains. Don't know how many other states it operates in, though.--Jason Paul Kazarianhttp://leftbrainedgeeks.com/rf.htm
In Texas and Oklahoma, we have a chain store called Hobby Lobby that sells all kinds of hobby activity goods, including model trains. Don't know how many other states it operates in, though.
--Jason Paul Kazarianhttp://leftbrainedgeeks.com/rf.htm
Hobby Lobbys are everywhere. I really don't think of them as model railroad stores. The ones in my area are more geared to artsy, craftsy stuff and Pottery Barn type merchandise. They all have one aisle for model trains. Other than the Woodland Scenics scenery materials, which you can get anywhere, there isn't much for the serious modeler. The trainsets are the low end toys. The only reason I go there is the wide selection they have a cheap acrylic craft paints which I use for brush painting structures and other scenic elements.
Wow, guys---SCARY!!
I live in the Sacramento area in Northern California, and maybe I've lucked out or God is good, or something, but I've got two hobby shops within about a fourteen-mile radius, one in Sacramento and the other in Roseville, and they're nothing BUT trains! Just about all scales, just about everything you'd need (or their Special Orders are fast and accurate) and they're both TERRIFIC. There's no WAY I'd ever order on internet (except maybe for hard to get brass), there's no way I need to.
Now I know these two shops supply most of Northern California (and probably even further) and every time I go in to either of them, there are guys like myself browsing, and guys who know what they're doing advising them and it's kind of like a really friendly club--I've never seen a Newbie come in and get ignored in either place--
So we're okay here--what's going on everywhere else?
Anyhow, if any of you are ever in the area, it's BRUCES TRAINS on Marconi Ave in Sacramento, and RAILROAD HOBBIES on Atlantic St. in downtown Roseville.
Bring a lunch, you'll NEED IT!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
--Jason Paul Kazarian http://leftbrainedgeeks.com/rf.htm
There are still some good shops out there. I think as long as people run a store in the old ways as well as using the Internet where it suits them they will be fine.
I recall the old 5 and 10 stores from long ago, those were fun. Some good locations even had a small food counter (Breakfast or Lunch) should you get hungry from all of that shopping.
I dont know how long we will have Hobby Shops where I am but I would think that we had a very good run and would be so lucky to see both stores still in business 10 years from now. Some stores on the east coast are closed for good. Others like Tommy Gilbert's of Gettysburg and Kleins of Baltimore are still going strong.
Update on LHS question. New LHS in Aiken, here is an exxample:
Midwest Products Cork Roadbed in a CASE LOT: Shop sells for $1.91 ea or $47.75 per case. After last nights meeting which he did come to I got that case for $31.49. His comment was that he needs to get with the program to survive.
At the meeting he was told that there are not enough model railroaders in the area to support just a Train Shop. He is working on building up his R/C and static models in his store. He is now strarting to carry the high end trendy toys, Big stuffed animals and the complete Thomas line. He is also carrying the mini metals and other HO and N scale cars that is a good cross over business for him.
This is probabaly the only way a newshop can survive. His prices on BLI is full list along with P2K. We have an independent that is 50% brick a morter (his garage) and the balance is internet and DCC Installs. He is doing very well and ALWAYS offers form 30 to 40% to club members.
There used to be around ten LHSs in the San Francisco Bay Area but there are now only a few left. The two that are in SF are general hobby shops whose model railroad supplies are skimpy or are geared to old Lionel collectors - and are priced at MSRP. The others in the Bay Area, with the exception of one, are mostly toy stores or cater to garden-variety "train set quality" supplies. The exception is The Train Shop in Santa Clara. This shop is a dedicated model railroad hobby shop with a good stock of supplies in all scales, a knowledgeable staff, and priced at 10% to 20% below MSRP. This is the one I go to when I need supplies.
I mostly shop on the internet, especially for big ticket items and hard to get speciality supplies. Besides the convenience and discount pricing, most items I want aren't available at most LHSs. The arts and crafts stores in the area, besides being more convenient than the LHSs, also carry a lot of useful scratch building supplies such as stripwood, styrene, brass, artists paints, and much more than most of our LHSs - and at a discount.
As far as information and advice are concerned, I usually know more about a product or technique than the staff at the LHSs and anything I don't know (which is a lot) I get from forums such as this one and others or from other personal sites ran by modelers who love what they're doing and genuinely are interested in helping others with their modeling.
I remember in the 60s and 70s when the LHS and printed media were the only sources of information on products and modeling techniques. If it wasn't for the internet it would be next to impossible for me to model what I want let alone afford the hobby.
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
The number of hobby shops has been declining for over 20 years here in Nothern Virginia. There are the usual variety of reasons, but in truth small retail businesses have been declining for years. Retail has changed quite a bit - big box stores either discount or frequent sales, Internet discount stores, and large shows on a regular basis which usually undersell msrp. The small retail shop is disappearing.
None of the remaining hobby stores around here carry S scale anymore. So, I do about half of my shopping at train shows and the other half is mail order from the manufacturer/importer. Most of my purchases are at a discount.
Enjoy
Paul
Simple economics.
Stores tend to be there were the customers are. If there's not enough business, the store will close. Like said above, the amount of product has exploded compared to even 20 years ago. In order to attract customers, he has to have a lot of it in stock. We are so accustomed to having a HUGE product selection wherever we go shopping. A successful LHS has to have a big customer base and be able to move a lot of product.
3 factors are very important to get customers in ANY store: * good product selection* low prices* convenience If you walk in a LHS and almost anything you want has to be ordered, and at list price, you walk away. Shopping from your computer where you have all the info and shops at your fingertips sure beats driving an hour to a LHS just to find that they don't have what you want.
Many people lament the passing of LHS, but the simple fact is that times change and a lot of businesses fail. Were there might have been a good customer base once, 25 years later it has disappeared. Older LHS owners are also retiring and there's not always somebody to take over., so the store closes for good. Also, not all LHS have had the werewithal to embrace new kinds of selling (internet) or management techniques.
Frank
Milwaukee is about two lose a couple of long standing hobby shops. Retirement plays a factor in both closings.
One factor working against the LHS compared to say the early 1960s when I started visiting them is the sheer quantity of stuff you need to stock to be called anywhere near a complete or one stop shop. Some of the smaller shops cannot possibly show the inventory even if they are making a profit at what they do. Even if a shop concentrates on one gauge and scale it is tough to do. Compare a 1965 Walthers catalog to the HO, N, and large scale catalogs of today and you'll see what I mean. And with the ready to run emphasis today the packaging of stuff gets bulkier and bulker.
Dave Nelson
Like others have said, it's Internet competition and changing demand.
I live on the overpopulated East Coast (as opposed to the western one), and there are many hobby shops in the area, including several that are exclusively for model railroaders. The two train shops that I frequent offer competitive discounts of 15 to 25% (Peach Creek and M.B. Klein). Both will do special orders and preorders at discounted prices. Peach Creek is three miles from my house. Klein 25 mi. away, but it is a high volume retailer with a large Internet sales department, along with its traditional bricks and mortar operation.
Another local shop (HobbyWorks) is a trational "all hobbies" shop. Most of their inventory consists of RC planes and cars, military models, and fantasy gaming items--because that's where the demand is--but they do carry some G, O, HO, and N scale items. They sell at list, except for a one-day fall sale and an annual spring progressive markdown sale (starts at 10% first week and gets to 60% off at the end) during which they clear out old merchandise. That is about the only time I consistently shop there. Some years they have a lot of train stuff on sale and I've bought a couple hundred dollars worth at 30% off, or more; some years not.
Nowadays, most of my purchases are either direct from the Walthers sales flyers--especially items offered at 20% off or more with free shipping if I total $100+--or from Internet only discounter HobbiesUSA. But except for items in the specific road name that I model, I don't preorder, because I can often pick stuff up for an even greater discount a few months after the release.
Hobby shops are where most folks got started in the hobby. I recently saw a father and young son at the LHS just starting out. How many times has this scene been played out over the years? Sure, prices are better on the net, but there is an intangible value of a LHS. They are very important to the future of our hobby.
Perhaps if my LHS was a crummy one I would feel differently but I still have a great one to shop at.
Jim