I've been in sales for 9 years now and a one of thing has become quite apparent: If you're going to stay in business today you'd better be offering something the other guy isn't. Be it low, low prices, extraordinary service, or products that simply aren't readily available.
I can think of at least 6 good hobby shops in my immediate area going back many years. (What happened to Harry's Depot???) Of them, there is only one left! And you'd better not have any loose clothing when you go in there either, lest you're knocking things over left and right. There's so much stock you barely have anyplace to walk! That's the only reason he's still there, that and he's pretty knowledgeable. It's not his prices...
There are only two things I'd like to say in regards to this matter: Trainworld/Trainland.
Since way before the advent of the Internet, this establishment has been discounting products both mail order and in store. A Brick & Mortar LHS, with a knowledgeable, pleasant & helpful sales staff, and quite possibly the best prices to be found. (In my experience even when they are beat, "on the net" it's usually only by pennies.)
My point is why has this LHS been able to do it when most all others (in my area, anyway.) were charging list price? Is it any surprise that they have gone under?
With all the great resources at your fingertips today, this forum being an excellent example, why do you need to go into a store and get the opinion of one or two people? And more importantly, who in their right mind is going to pay MSRP in this day and age??? Sure, working some of the suppliers websites can be a PITA, but you have to look at it in the context that you're saving the $$$ so you're going to have to work for it a little. Plus, It's not like stereo speakers or darts that you have to sample in person before you buy.
Before I started my present gig, I ordered from Standard Hobby Supply. Great prices, fantastic selection, and its on your doorstep in a few days, who could ask for more? Now I'm lucky, I'm only a 45-minute drive from Trainland. (Plus I'm out that way at least once a week for my business anyway.) So where else would I shop?
As far as the local coffee & camaraderie goes, yea that'll be missed. But the last time I went to TL for one of their clearance sales, (which, I might add saves you yet another 10% off their already absurdly low prices!) I got a free lunch- they had giant boxes of White Castle cheeseburgers for everyone!!!
The company I was working for prior to my current situation was charging way too much, plain and simple. Their business began to suffer as a result. They wanted to maintain their bottom line, so their answer was to raise the prices! Yea, that'll be good for business... As someone else already stated, you can make a little profit on a lot of product and prosper, or you can make a lot of profit on a little product and watch your business shrivel and die. It's their choice...
In summation, while the Internet has increased the competition for retailers in general, it's also increased their potential customer base at the same time. If retailers want to survive, they're going to have to take advantage of it. I think its called free enterprise...
P.S. Sorry I'm late if this was supposed to be a weekend only rant.
Safety Valve wrote: When that door opens I hear "HI!"When it shuts I smell coffee or some other convience such as sodas or water availible.It might be 4 hours before I leave, but what a time of "Filling up" on various subjects or going over plans with other regular customers. Sometimes just lending an ear when some one rants about such a problem.You cannot add a price to a good hobby shop visit.
When that door opens I hear "HI!"
When it shuts I smell coffee or some other convience such as sodas or water availible.
It might be 4 hours before I leave, but what a time of "Filling up" on various subjects or going over plans with other regular customers. Sometimes just lending an ear when some one rants about such a problem.
You cannot add a price to a good hobby shop visit.
Ahh yes I remember those old fashion hobby shops that is fast becoming a rare find..I to enjoyed the hours long talks with the owner and other modelers..I recall one shop-Jim's Train shop-now long gone (closed in 1986 due to a divorce)-where we would have coffee,fresh donuts,a old Warm Morning coal stove we sat around while discussing the newest model,our latest projects,share pictures, ect..It was a Saturday tradition to go to Jimmy's and chat with friends.I really miss those days.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Dick i hope you see this which 2 hobby shops are closing in milwaukee? Please let me know
F-unit
Having whined about finding so little at a hobby shop in San Bernadino, I have to give credit to the great one in Pasadena, that I got over to see a year ago: The "original" Whistle Stop. There is that musty smell of old cardboard boxes that are deteriorating, and is not an unpleasant odor. It also means you just MAY find a real treasure, if you search all the shelves, and are willing to climb up the wall to get at something. I spied a box that said ULRICH...my heart skipped a beat. Could it BE??? I found a little stepladder and clambored up to carefully reach it. On the side, it read: General Service Gondola, Southern Pacific. Showed the original price of $8.95, which was a freaking FORTUNE back in 1959, when I first noticed this kit existed. I remember reading an article in Model Railroader that claimed this was the hardest kit in the universe to actually try to put together and have it STAY that way. (I'm assuming the drop bottom feature, is what made it the number one source of suicides among model railroaders.)
My HANDS were shaking, to have this in my hot little paws. I wouldn't have cared if they said its now TWO HUNDRED DOLLARS, I would have bought it. I felt like I had an artifact from King Tut's own layout (the Cairo and Western Ry.)--and held it tight against me, in case some "Raider" had it in mind to wrest it from me.
Wisely, I decided to OPEN it, at the sales counter. It contained only some spare parts from what looked like several model kits, not a single one being left over from anything Ulrich ever made. What a heartbreaker.
I thought I'd sort of made up for it, by finding a kit of an old style gasoline service station right below it, called "McLeod's Super Service" for a rather rude price. As that is my real last name, how could I say no, especially as I was made to assume it was the only one of its kind this side of Saturn?
(Haven't had time to put it together yet, typically, but meantime I see its easily obtained for less money, from Walthers' site.)
Sigh.
Yes! Especially on Saturday mornings when the store is packed with trainheads. And nothing beats pressing your nose against a glass case filled with diesel and steam locomotives. It really boils down to different strokes for different folks.
In Fresno, CA we have no real LHS (or) Model Railroad-based hobby shop. There are three stores that have a facade as one. Bill Randolph closed his store here in 2003 and there is Tom's Trains which is OK. nothing really in stock and it's a mess, a store in Clovis that sells O-27 and railroadiana mixed up with some merchandise and some merchant opened a "hobby shop" in a mail box store. I just came back from buying some styrene sheets at Hobbytown USA which BTW here in Fresno has a great selection of new releases, Genesis, Intermountain, etc. But it's mostly planes and cars.
jfugate wrote: For those who fear the loss of the "touchy-feely" aspect of actually looking at the merchandise yourself, I would counter that you probably don't get to handle the merchandise you buy all *that much* before you buy it. And the web's move to rich media will begin to counter that issue in time.
For those who fear the loss of the "touchy-feely" aspect of actually looking at the merchandise yourself, I would counter that you probably don't get to handle the merchandise you buy all *that much* before you buy it. And the web's move to rich media will begin to counter that issue in time.
This is a very astute observation. We really don't know much more about the merchandise we buy in brick and mortar stores than what we buy online. If there is a problem, we aren't going to find out about it until we put our purchase on the layout and run it. This is going to be the case regardless of where we buy something. Rarely when we look at something do we see the problems. It is only when it fails to perform on our layouts that we see what the problem is. A case in point is two Athearn RS-3s I recently purchased. They were identical in every aspect except the road number. I was having trouble with one of them derailing at precisely the same location on a turnout. When I put its sister on the track, it had no problems in the same location. After I got out the NMRA gauge, I determine that the front wheels were too wide and the turnout points too narrow and the combination was causing derailments. I happened to buy these two engines online but had I bought them at my LHS, I wouldn't have been aware of the problem until I got them home. I really don't see much advantage to being able to see merchandise in person before I buy it. Problems are not going to be readily apparent. The advanatage of buying at an LHS is that it is more convenient to return problem merchandise, but we are no more likely to avoid these problems than if we shop online.
Medina1128 wrote:When I was in LA this past Christmas to visit my brother-in-law's family, he told me about Allied in Culver City. I found it to be very well stocked and reasonable prices, especially when you consider it's basically an LA store.
When I was in LA this past Christmas to visit my brother-in-law's family, he told me about Allied in Culver City. I found it to be very well stocked and reasonable prices, especially when you consider it's basically an LA store.
??? I don't know what you meant by that.
But I did have a good experience at Allied yesterday, they had a certain N scale item* on sale for $5 (that normally sells/lists for $7.95). Even the cheapest online price for this item is $6. So I kept buying multiple packages of this item every time I was there. But when I went there yesterday they didn't have it on the shelves (but did behind the counter). I asked Don, the N scale specialist if they were still on sale for $5 and he said to me, "If you buy all four remaining packs, it'll be $5 each." I said, "Alright!" And I got 'em (I was planning to buy about that many anyway). So I got an even better deal on this product than I could get online!
* If I name this item, I fear they will no longer sell it for $5... :)
Other LHSes in my area have other incentives to keep people coming...One store (The Roundhouse in North Hollywood) has a monthly raffle on the last Saturday of the month at 3 p.m. where the prizes are store credit. You get one raffle ticket for every $5 you spend in purchases that month. And just about all the time, the guy at the counter will say, "Ooops, I ripped out one too many tickets...oh well, you can keep it" :)
That store is PACKED on the last Saturday of the month!
Oliver Sudden wrote:Wow! I wondered if anyone would even NOTICE my first post in here, or if there were actually other STILL ALIVE PEOPLE interested in model railroading as a hobby, anymore. I came back to see FORTY-TWO replies to my rant about how I couldn't find a decent hobby shop in San Bernadino. --Roger (not really Oliver Sudden, of course)
Wow! I wondered if anyone would even NOTICE my first post in here, or if there were actually other STILL ALIVE PEOPLE interested in model railroading as a hobby, anymore. I came back to see FORTY-TWO replies to my rant about how I couldn't find a decent hobby shop in San Bernadino.
--Roger (not really Oliver Sudden, of course)
Roger - There's a swap meet in Riverside this coming Saturday. If you want more info, email me through the email link.
Like it or not, the internet is the wave of the future for many niche interest areas and shopping. The overhead to build and maintain a web site is far less than a brick and mortar outfit, so it's not surprising to see LHS business moving online.
Imagine watching a video of that sound loco doing it's thing, with the camera up close and showing you the item from all angles. Now envision a 3D virtual reality image of the item that you can rotate with your mouse, so you can view it from all angles -- you can zoom in, zoom out.
Online car advertisers are already starting to offer this, and with a bit of planning, it's now possible for anyone with a digital camera to make such VR images themselves using simple multiple image stitching software.
One thing for sure, the times they are a changing. I maintain in many cases the new way is not necessarily any better or worse, just different.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
BRAKIE wrote:Well if you think shopping on line is a pain in the fanny then you have shopped at the wrong places.All of the shops I buy from keeps a updated web site as far as what is in stock and what is out of stock.I can order today and have the items in 3-4 days and save $$$ in the process.
Well, I recently got a LL berk off the Walthers site for $85 verses $140 at the LHS. That's the kind of exception I was getting at. But, saving five or ten bucks on the internet verses picking through real merchandise just doesn't make the net worth it. Especially with delicate N scale cars and engines. Of course the LHS it isn't convenient for everyone. I'm fortunate to have a well stocked LHS that discounts 20 minutes from me. The title of this thread is "what happened to the hobby shop?" My reply is it's still here for some of us and why.
Really, we should buy trains in whatever manner suits us and not worry about the buisiness models. Buisiness models change and we change with them or follow what works best for us. I think the real problem is we get set in our ways and when the world around us changes, we have difficulty dealing with it.
I will agree that many LHS's are dying by their own hands. There are several in the local market where I refuse to do business. One is in a terrble area of town where I feel like I need a security detail for my car. Another charges full MSRP or more and owner's wife continues to takle more of hte store for her beads and other crafts. Another LHS fails to actually order items requested. I have probably $2,000.00 worth of items that I did not purchase due to the failure of the LHS to acually follow though with the orders. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars with this shop over the past twenty years and this problem has only recently occured. I could have spend the money with on-line retailers but I did not and used it in other areas of my life. This was a loss for the store and the industry.
I have stated this many times on this forum and other when the discussions of the LHS comes to the surface. In order to survive the LHS needs to provide pleasent quality service at competitive prices. It is not possible to survive in this business today without a signifigant online component. Instead of whining about competition, the LHS needs to step up and complete. Without competition we would still have the unreliable cars of the 1970's. Competitions is good for the market and for the nation. Ideally we would look back in a few years a see a diffferent market place where there are fewer but higher quality shops where customer service, inventory, and other factors drive the hobbyist back to the store with pokcets full of cash eager to buy from the local LHS whether that is on-line or around the corner.
3railguy wrote: Buying on internet is a pain in the butt. I look at the time it takes to scroll through and process everything, add shipping costs, the waiting game, wondering if it will arrive safely, etc.... I say "What am I wasting my time for" and I'm off to the LHS. With LHS, it's just plunk your dough down, run home with it, and play. I only buy on the net if I can't find it locally or if the savings are substancial.The LHS near me has a large inventory and discounts his stuff to a point where the internet just isn't worth the hassle. He also makes the buying experience more pleasureable by playing train theme music and serving coffee. It's a great escape from the daily grind or cure to boredom. Something to look forward to.
Buying on internet is a pain in the butt. I look at the time it takes to scroll through and process everything, add shipping costs, the waiting game, wondering if it will arrive safely, etc.... I say "What am I wasting my time for" and I'm off to the LHS. With LHS, it's just plunk your dough down, run home with it, and play. I only buy on the net if I can't find it locally or if the savings are substancial.
The LHS near me has a large inventory and discounts his stuff to a point where the internet just isn't worth the hassle. He also makes the buying experience more pleasureable by playing train theme music and serving coffee. It's a great escape from the daily grind or cure to boredom. Something to look forward to.
Well if you think shopping on line is a pain in the fanny then you have shopped at the wrong places.All of the shops I buy from keeps a updated web site as far as what is in stock and what is out of stock.I can order today and have the items in 3-4 days and save $$$ in the process.
As far as the free coffee very few shops go that route these days..The last free coffee hobby shop closed last year when the owner retired.However there was a down side..It was a 2 hour drive just to get there and there was no guarantee he will have what you need in stock.Also his attitude wasn't always the best but,a smile and a good morning/afternoon followed by your name was his usual greeting as you walked in the the door.Sadly that era has ended.The other shops are like this: May I help you?,pay me and leave like you are more of a burden then a paying customer and for that service they want full price? I think not.
No,I lost my taste for hobby shops and their rude ways and their mindless excuses why something isn't in stock.
SpaceMouse wrote: I want to challenge the assumption that the Internet stores are big. My guess, is that with a couple of exceptions, the operations are smaller than an average LHS. The thing about the Internet is you can appear to be big, without in fact being so.I had a vitamin business that went head to head with the big boys--in fact my customers thought I was as big as any. In a time when $6 Billion was the total market share, we were only grossing $2 million. But our web presence was huge. My guess there are maybe one or two Internet hobby shops bigger than that--most being Mom and Pop 3-4 person operations.
I want to challenge the assumption that the Internet stores are big. My guess, is that with a couple of exceptions, the operations are smaller than an average LHS. The thing about the Internet is you can appear to be big, without in fact being so.
I had a vitamin business that went head to head with the big boys--in fact my customers thought I was as big as any. In a time when $6 Billion was the total market share, we were only grossing $2 million. But our web presence was huge.
My guess there are maybe one or two Internet hobby shops bigger than that--most being Mom and Pop 3-4 person operations.
Chip,That are several big on line hobby shops.Let's start with:
M.B.Klein..That is a fairly good size shop from what I read and been told by those that have been there.
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/
Let's see then we have another good size shop in Trainland/Trainworld.
http://www.trainworld.com/map.htm
Then we have First Hobby
http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/About.asp?SN=2007021812152349
Then we have First Place Hobbies.
How about Caboose Hobbies in Denver?
Toy Train Heaven?
The list is endless.
A well designed website will allow you to find what you are looking for with a keyword search even if you don't know the item number. Some e-tailers have very user friendly websites and others do not. That is not unique to model railroading. I really do very little internet buying. Most of my discount buying has been through Trainworld. Even though they have a website, the last I checked, they do not take orders via the internet so I don't really think of them as an e-tailer. I have gotten some great buys recently from factorydirecttrains.com. My LHS doesn't stock BLI and PCM locos so they aren't really taking business from my LHS. I've done some online buying from Micromark recently but again, most of that is for items my LHS doesn't stock. I do order from Walthers website but it is shipped to my LHS so they get their cut. Unless it is an item Walthers is discounting, I'm paying full MSRP when I buy that way.
Well another thing to take in consideration is a lot of the older hobby shops owner has retired or died and their kids didn't want no part of the hobby shop business due to their chosen careers.
LHS is also dying by their own hands..I can not speak anybody else but,I will not pay -say-$99.00 for a locomotive when I can buy for $64.99 plus shipping..After all that $27.00 is just as good in my pocket as it is the LHS..Or to make my order worth the shipping I can buy other items with that $27.00..Time was I was most happy to get a 10% discount..However after joining the computer age that 10% discount doesn't even raise my eye brows.
As I mention before for in order for Mom & Pop to survive they must step in the age of discount and computer.
Its their call..Die by old fashion full prices and cuse the internet or join the modern times.
I say this to all hobby shop owners that still refuses to discount.
Do not go gentle into that good night..
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
It is all where ya live at and what the HS caters too. (If there is one there?) I am just lucky that I am in the Midwest close to some good shops. Ft.Wayne has 3 good shops with a couple of shops not more than 2 more hours away. I guess you just have to have a good demographics in it. Kevin
When I was in LA this past Christmas to visit my brother-in-law's family, he told me about Allied in Culver City. I found it to be very well stocked and reasonable prices, especially when you consider it's basically an LA store. I rewarded them by purchasing an Atlas GP38-2 in UP colors. Allied, GREAT JOB!
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Oliver Sudden wrote: Wow! I wondered if anyone would even NOTICE my first post in here, or if there were actually other STILL ALIVE PEOPLE interested in model railroading as a hobby, anymore. I came back to see FORTY-TWO replies to my rant about how I couldn't find a decent hobby shop in San Bernadino. Such wildly different answers from all over the place, too. I'm happy to hear that in many places, things are still going strong for small time retailers. When I signed back up for a Model Railroader Magazine subscription, after a long while without one, I also wondered if the news was bad, in terms of the magazine's circulation. I remember learning back in the early sixties, that it was some mindboggling number like FIVE MILLION or whatever. Blew me away, to think there were THAT many of us, stricken with what often feels like a DISEASE that will not allow us to live our lives purely in one-to-one scale. I fear that big number has shrunk a lot, in the last little while...reflected by how so many hobby shops have disappeared. Anyway, one of the replies here, indicated I was NOT the first one to start in on this subject...I'll admit I only read a FEW of the "threads" in here, to get a quickie feel of what sort of thing gets talked about. I would also like to post my stories of how I got hooked into this hobby...another subject that may have been beaten to death in here already. BUT NOT BY ME, so you'll either have to bear with me on that, or not clik on the new thread I'll soon start. Thanks for the welcome wave from several of you...hope all is well with you all. --Roger (not really Oliver Sudden, of course)
Wow! I wondered if anyone would even NOTICE my first post in here, or if there were actually other STILL ALIVE PEOPLE interested in model railroading as a hobby, anymore. I came back to see FORTY-TWO replies to my rant about how I couldn't find a decent hobby shop in San Bernadino. Such wildly different answers from all over the place, too. I'm happy to hear that in many places, things are still going strong for small time retailers.
When I signed back up for a Model Railroader Magazine subscription, after a long while without one, I also wondered if the news was bad, in terms of the magazine's circulation. I remember learning back in the early sixties, that it was some mindboggling number like FIVE MILLION or whatever. Blew me away, to think there were THAT many of us, stricken with what often feels like a DISEASE that will not allow us to live our lives purely in one-to-one scale. I fear that big number has shrunk a lot, in the last little while...reflected by how so many hobby shops have disappeared.
Anyway, one of the replies here, indicated I was NOT the first one to start in on this subject...I'll admit I only read a FEW of the "threads" in here, to get a quickie feel of what sort of thing gets talked about. I would also like to post my stories of how I got hooked into this hobby...another subject that may have been beaten to death in here already. BUT NOT BY ME, so you'll either have to bear with me on that, or not clik on the new thread I'll soon start.
Thanks for the welcome wave from several of you...hope all is well with you all.
Roger, feel free to post on any MR topic you feel like within the forums guidelines. That's the purpose of an open forum like this. If people aren't interested, they are free to skip over it. If they disagree, they are free to respond. That's the way it is in America, at least until John McCain becomes president.
After reading this list I have to consider myself lucky in a way. I can't justify the internet as a reliable source of RRing needs just yet, partly because of the high shipping costs and similar to self prices (not including shipping) that turn me off. Nothing is more fun than dedicating 30 minutes or so in my LHS's, yea plural! Although its a drive to my LHS, either a 50 min north drive to my favorite hobby store, which I like because low prices on stuff, but it has its downfalls because of the lack of rolling stock selection. Its a good selection, but man, its all top shelf stuff that I am not at the point of being able to afford yet. Then the other way south, I look at a good 55 min drive to Charleston and Nitro, one hobby shop has OK stock and prices, and the other has a great selection of kits, which I am falling in love with, and a good selection of everything else, but it comes with a bit higher price. I have a LHS as well in town, but it has just opened and caters mainly to RC hobbies, which I have contributed to as well for the summer time. But the owner is friends and a coworker with my dad and wants to get train stuff in, but the full time job situation is rocky and he hasn't decided what to do yet. All of this is just my essay!
-beegle55
CAZEPHYR wrote:The moving plan for Allied came from friends who know them and I viewed the advertisement of the building for lease. Brian or Allen do own the building and no real reason has been given to the public for the move. Sorry I don't know. It might actually be they need more space since they do the Station 56 products also. Unless plans have changed, they are moving a block or so from their present location.
The moving plan for Allied came from friends who know them and I viewed the advertisement of the building for lease. Brian or Allen do own the building and no real reason has been given to the public for the move. Sorry I don't know. It might actually be they need more space since they do the Station 56 products also.
Unless plans have changed, they are moving a block or so from their present location.
I went to Allied today and asked Don, the N scale guy about the move. He paused, took a deep breath and basically told me, "Well, no one's sure, we own the building across the street, so we'll either move there or to a bigger location elsewhere...it's all up in the air right now."
It's all vague. The storefront across the street is only half the size of their current store, so that would assume downsizing, but if they moved to a "bigger location" then that obviously means they're expanding...
The current store is an icon...even non-model railroaders know about it.
When cars and gas were cheap, the economy robust, and towns (people) were more scattered than they are now (or clumped), it was "normal" and acceptable to drive for one's purposes. Now, most of us spend 80+% of our waking time at home or at work. It is costly to drive places. In the city it is expensive due to clutch and brake wear and tear, not to mention the accleration and its use of gas. If you drive rurally, the extra cost of gas takes over the reduced costs of braking and clutching. Generally, it costs to live, and our way of living has placed emphasis on other things. The internet and cable costs are now taking up some of what used to be discretionary income. Most of us wouldn't think about cutting off our cable and internet. So, we tend to use them more. That has leant more creativity in their use, particularly the internet....where more people spend time, you get more "development" and evolution. Driving down to the LHS when a better bargain can be found with five minutes of on-line shopping makes the costs of weekend golfing less realistic.
Edit - P.S. "Oliver Sudden", that's clever...