DFerg wrote:I simply have to disagree with those of you that say that ordering by internet is more convenient then going to your LHS. I live in small town/rural Eastern Ontario (Maxville area to be exact) and am fortunate to have two LHS in the area. The closest is in Cornwall, which right on the International border and about a half hour away from the Quebec border. When we go into town, about once a week, I usually go in and stock up on simple, everyday use stuff at this shop. Small LHS that don't really specialize in MRing are great for doing this stuff. This shop in particular is pretty good at keeping a fair size inventory of these useful things, that I really couldn't see my self getting on the net and buying. For my larger purchases I go to Lark Spur Line in Merrickville (about an hours drive, but worth it) which specialises in trains. Only if they don't have the item will I consider going to the net. Call me old fashion, by I firmly believe that the face to face interaction with the shop owner/cashier is a lot better than going on the net, browsing threw endless pages to find what you want. Duncan
I simply have to disagree with those of you that say that ordering by internet is more convenient then going to your LHS. I live in small town/rural Eastern Ontario (Maxville area to be exact) and am fortunate to have two LHS in the area. The closest is in Cornwall, which right on the International border and about a half hour away from the Quebec border. When we go into town, about once a week, I usually go in and stock up on simple, everyday use stuff at this shop. Small LHS that don't really specialize in MRing are great for doing this stuff. This shop in particular is pretty good at keeping a fair size inventory of these useful things, that I really couldn't see my self getting on the net and buying. For my larger purchases I go to Lark Spur Line in Merrickville (about an hours drive, but worth it) which specialises in trains. Only if they don't have the item will I consider going to the net. Call me old fashion, by I firmly believe that the face to face interaction with the shop owner/cashier is a lot better than going on the net, browsing threw endless pages to find what you want.
Duncan
Even though I live in Ottawa, and there even is a hobby shop just down the road, I don't mind a weekend drive to Merrickville. Technically, Merrickville is just outside the city limits, but it is a nice drive in the "country".
The nearest hobby shop is great for glue or paint, but if you blink, you'll miss the model railroad section. They do come out to Railfair, but their inventory is still rather limited. There is another, larger hobby shop down in Vanier, but still, I find their selection is limited. Takes almost as long to get there from here as to go to Lark Spur Line.
The internet is a great asset, as you can deal with anyone anywhere in the world. You can compare prices, and even see products you may not even know exist. But the personal contact is missing. Speaking directly to someone and explaining what you want, or want to do, is easier and faster than email and browsing web pages. A picture may be worth a thousand words, but nothing is more descriptive than holding something in your hands and examining it. It's like buying a TV by comparing it's picture to others, or listening to speakers before buying.
I don't see the LHS vs. e-tailers as an either or proposition. For now and the forseable future there is a place for both. There is no doubt that some LHSes can't survive in the current market conditions. An LHS needs a decent size customer base. For whatever reason, model railroading seems to thrive in pockets rather than being widespread. I live in a rural area but I am close to three decent sized towns, none of which has an LHS that carries MR stuff. There was a guy who tried to make a go of a very small MR shop but his selection was so small it wasn't worth the 1/2 hour one way trip to go there. He couldn't afford to keep a decent supply of stuff because his customer base was so small. A real Catch-22 situation. The LHSes that do exist in the area apparently have found there isn't sufficient demand to carry even a small selection of MR stuff. Now I have to drive an hour each way to get to my LHS which used to be 10 minutes from my old house. It used to be I could forget something and turnaround and go back for it. Not any more.
The LHS will continue to exist as long as the MR community votes with its dollars to keep them in business. The marketplace will serve our needs. For some of us in remote areas, we will have to choose between a long drive to the LHS or waiting several days for an internet order to arrive. That forces us to plan ahead and always have everyday stuff like track, ballast, paint etc. on hand.
Hi oliver
Simple the Internet traders with their ridiculously low prices and hobbyists not willing to pay the prices a real hobby shop has to charge have killed the real hobby shops.
I do not believe our hobby is safe in these traders hands they cannot and do not give what I call real service and the trouble will start when people want that again as they will.
But it will be to late the real hobby shops will be gone.
regards John
John Busby wrote: Hi oliverSimple the Internet traders with their ridiculously low prices and hobbyists not willing to pay the prices a real hobby shop has to charge have killed the real hobby shops.I do not believe our hobby is safe in these traders hands they cannot and do not give what I call real service and the trouble will start when people want that again as they will.But it will be to late the real hobby shops will be gone.regards John
There is nothing ridiculous about low prices. The e-tailers are in competition with the LHS. They can't offer the service and convenience the LHS can but it can better them in price. That is how they entice customers. Nothing ridiculous about that. As a customer, it's not for me to be concerned about who wins or loses in this competition. I want the best value for my money. I weigh both price and service when making that determination. Some e-tailers do give good service. Tony's Train Exchange is absolutely outstanding in that regard. I've had good experiences with Trainworld as well. Through my error, not theirs, I ordered two dozen of the wrong uncouplers. They took them back, no questions asked.
John Busby wrote: Simple the Internet traders with their ridiculously low prices and hobbyists not willing to pay the prices a real hobby shop has to charge have killed the real hobby shops.
Yes, this is how our free market economy works.
And I like it that way.
dirtyd79 wrote:I think hobby shops are disappearing largely at their own hand. Before the internet I had to put up with goofballs who only want to be open every odd tuesday in june or some goofy hours and only cater to what the owner likes or were hidden all the way out in the middle of nowhere. Thanks to the internet we can now buy anything we want at almost any time of day from the comfort of our own home. Sure the flat earth society will cry but oh well let them live in their prehistoric world. The rest of us will be running our trains.
I totally agree dirty! This is a capitalistic/free market society, which is very Darwinian. If you can't adpat to changing times. too bad for you. The vast majority of "hobby shops" I have visited in my life consisted of some cranky old man who doesn't seem to want to help people out and has a crappy inventory, or it's run by some young kid who doesn't know a damn thing about trains. There are a precious few stores that have a good stock (or willing to order in a timely manner) and knowledgeable staff. I live near one, thank god! They will survive the internet "black death". The rest, like I said, brought it on themselves.
I want to challenge the assumption that the Internet stores are big. My guess, is that with a couple of exceptions, the operations are smaller than an average LHS. The thing about the Internet is you can appear to be big, without in fact being so.
I had a vitamin business that went head to head with the big boys--in fact my customers thought I was as big as any. In a time when $6 Billion was the total market share, we were only grossing $2 million. But our web presence was huge.
My guess there are maybe one or two Internet hobby shops bigger than that--most being Mom and Pop 3-4 person operations.
Chip
Building the Rock Ridge Railroad with the slowest construction crew west of the Pecos.
I consider myself fortunate to have an outstanding LHS, the Train Station in Columbus. They are friendly, well stocked, reasonbly priced and always willing to help. They have been in business at their current location for almost 30 years. They began in downtown but apparently the rent drove them to their current location in north Columbus. The fact that they are an A+ LHS doesn't change the fact they still have to compete for my dollar. I take advantage of internet bargains when I can but still buy a lot of myself from them. I know I can get the basic supplies there anytime I need it and they will gladly order something from Walthers when I need something oddball.
I've seen all kinds of LHSes and understand the horror stories some have posted about their own LHS. Some businesses just don't seem to understand that a customer is under no obligation to do business with them and think they don't have serve the customers needs to stay in business. Most with that attitude don't.
When cars and gas were cheap, the economy robust, and towns (people) were more scattered than they are now (or clumped), it was "normal" and acceptable to drive for one's purposes. Now, most of us spend 80+% of our waking time at home or at work. It is costly to drive places. In the city it is expensive due to clutch and brake wear and tear, not to mention the accleration and its use of gas. If you drive rurally, the extra cost of gas takes over the reduced costs of braking and clutching. Generally, it costs to live, and our way of living has placed emphasis on other things. The internet and cable costs are now taking up some of what used to be discretionary income. Most of us wouldn't think about cutting off our cable and internet. So, we tend to use them more. That has leant more creativity in their use, particularly the internet....where more people spend time, you get more "development" and evolution. Driving down to the LHS when a better bargain can be found with five minutes of on-line shopping makes the costs of weekend golfing less realistic.
Edit - P.S. "Oliver Sudden", that's clever...
CAZEPHYR wrote:The moving plan for Allied came from friends who know them and I viewed the advertisement of the building for lease. Brian or Allen do own the building and no real reason has been given to the public for the move. Sorry I don't know. It might actually be they need more space since they do the Station 56 products also. Unless plans have changed, they are moving a block or so from their present location.
The moving plan for Allied came from friends who know them and I viewed the advertisement of the building for lease. Brian or Allen do own the building and no real reason has been given to the public for the move. Sorry I don't know. It might actually be they need more space since they do the Station 56 products also.
Unless plans have changed, they are moving a block or so from their present location.
I went to Allied today and asked Don, the N scale guy about the move. He paused, took a deep breath and basically told me, "Well, no one's sure, we own the building across the street, so we'll either move there or to a bigger location elsewhere...it's all up in the air right now."
It's all vague. The storefront across the street is only half the size of their current store, so that would assume downsizing, but if they moved to a "bigger location" then that obviously means they're expanding...
The current store is an icon...even non-model railroaders know about it.
After reading this list I have to consider myself lucky in a way. I can't justify the internet as a reliable source of RRing needs just yet, partly because of the high shipping costs and similar to self prices (not including shipping) that turn me off. Nothing is more fun than dedicating 30 minutes or so in my LHS's, yea plural! Although its a drive to my LHS, either a 50 min north drive to my favorite hobby store, which I like because low prices on stuff, but it has its downfalls because of the lack of rolling stock selection. Its a good selection, but man, its all top shelf stuff that I am not at the point of being able to afford yet. Then the other way south, I look at a good 55 min drive to Charleston and Nitro, one hobby shop has OK stock and prices, and the other has a great selection of kits, which I am falling in love with, and a good selection of everything else, but it comes with a bit higher price. I have a LHS as well in town, but it has just opened and caters mainly to RC hobbies, which I have contributed to as well for the summer time. But the owner is friends and a coworker with my dad and wants to get train stuff in, but the full time job situation is rocky and he hasn't decided what to do yet. All of this is just my essay!
-beegle55
Wow! I wondered if anyone would even NOTICE my first post in here, or if there were actually other STILL ALIVE PEOPLE interested in model railroading as a hobby, anymore. I came back to see FORTY-TWO replies to my rant about how I couldn't find a decent hobby shop in San Bernadino. Such wildly different answers from all over the place, too. I'm happy to hear that in many places, things are still going strong for small time retailers.
When I signed back up for a Model Railroader Magazine subscription, after a long while without one, I also wondered if the news was bad, in terms of the magazine's circulation. I remember learning back in the early sixties, that it was some mindboggling number like FIVE MILLION or whatever. Blew me away, to think there were THAT many of us, stricken with what often feels like a DISEASE that will not allow us to live our lives purely in one-to-one scale. I fear that big number has shrunk a lot, in the last little while...reflected by how so many hobby shops have disappeared.
Anyway, one of the replies here, indicated I was NOT the first one to start in on this subject...I'll admit I only read a FEW of the "threads" in here, to get a quickie feel of what sort of thing gets talked about. I would also like to post my stories of how I got hooked into this hobby...another subject that may have been beaten to death in here already. BUT NOT BY ME, so you'll either have to bear with me on that, or not clik on the new thread I'll soon start.
Thanks for the welcome wave from several of you...hope all is well with you all.
--Roger (not really Oliver Sudden, of course)
Oliver Sudden wrote: Wow! I wondered if anyone would even NOTICE my first post in here, or if there were actually other STILL ALIVE PEOPLE interested in model railroading as a hobby, anymore. I came back to see FORTY-TWO replies to my rant about how I couldn't find a decent hobby shop in San Bernadino. Such wildly different answers from all over the place, too. I'm happy to hear that in many places, things are still going strong for small time retailers. When I signed back up for a Model Railroader Magazine subscription, after a long while without one, I also wondered if the news was bad, in terms of the magazine's circulation. I remember learning back in the early sixties, that it was some mindboggling number like FIVE MILLION or whatever. Blew me away, to think there were THAT many of us, stricken with what often feels like a DISEASE that will not allow us to live our lives purely in one-to-one scale. I fear that big number has shrunk a lot, in the last little while...reflected by how so many hobby shops have disappeared. Anyway, one of the replies here, indicated I was NOT the first one to start in on this subject...I'll admit I only read a FEW of the "threads" in here, to get a quickie feel of what sort of thing gets talked about. I would also like to post my stories of how I got hooked into this hobby...another subject that may have been beaten to death in here already. BUT NOT BY ME, so you'll either have to bear with me on that, or not clik on the new thread I'll soon start. Thanks for the welcome wave from several of you...hope all is well with you all. --Roger (not really Oliver Sudden, of course)
Roger, feel free to post on any MR topic you feel like within the forums guidelines. That's the purpose of an open forum like this. If people aren't interested, they are free to skip over it. If they disagree, they are free to respond. That's the way it is in America, at least until John McCain becomes president.
When I was in LA this past Christmas to visit my brother-in-law's family, he told me about Allied in Culver City. I found it to be very well stocked and reasonable prices, especially when you consider it's basically an LA store. I rewarded them by purchasing an Atlas GP38-2 in UP colors. Allied, GREAT JOB!
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
It is all where ya live at and what the HS caters too. (If there is one there?) I am just lucky that I am in the Midwest close to some good shops. Ft.Wayne has 3 good shops with a couple of shops not more than 2 more hours away. I guess you just have to have a good demographics in it. Kevin
Lionel collector, stuck in an N scaler's modelling space.
Buying on internet is a pain in the butt. I look at the time it takes to scroll through and process everything, add shipping costs, the waiting game, wondering if it will arrive safely, etc.... I say "What am I wasting my time for" and I'm off to the LHS. With LHS, it's just plunk your dough down, run home with it, and play. I only buy on the net if I can't find it locally or if the savings are substancial.
The LHS near me has a large inventory and discounts his stuff to a point where the internet just isn't worth the hassle. He also makes the buying experience more pleasureable by playing train theme music and serving coffee. It's a great escape from the daily grind or cure to boredom. Something to look forward to.
Well another thing to take in consideration is a lot of the older hobby shops owner has retired or died and their kids didn't want no part of the hobby shop business due to their chosen careers.
LHS is also dying by their own hands..I can not speak anybody else but,I will not pay -say-$99.00 for a locomotive when I can buy for $64.99 plus shipping..After all that $27.00 is just as good in my pocket as it is the LHS..Or to make my order worth the shipping I can buy other items with that $27.00..Time was I was most happy to get a 10% discount..However after joining the computer age that 10% discount doesn't even raise my eye brows.
As I mention before for in order for Mom & Pop to survive they must step in the age of discount and computer.
Its their call..Die by old fashion full prices and cuse the internet or join the modern times.
I say this to all hobby shop owners that still refuses to discount.
Do not go gentle into that good night..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
3railguy wrote: Buying on internet is a pain in the butt. I look at the time it takes to scroll through and process everything, add shipping costs, the waiting game, wondering if it will arrive safely, etc.... I say "What am I wasting my time for" and I'm off to the LHS. With LHS, it's just plunk your dough down, run home with it, and play. I only buy on the net if I can't find it locally or if the savings are substancial.The LHS near me has a large inventory and discounts his stuff to a point where the internet just isn't worth the hassle. He also makes the buying experience more pleasureable by playing train theme music and serving coffee. It's a great escape from the daily grind or cure to boredom. Something to look forward to.
A well designed website will allow you to find what you are looking for with a keyword search even if you don't know the item number. Some e-tailers have very user friendly websites and others do not. That is not unique to model railroading. I really do very little internet buying. Most of my discount buying has been through Trainworld. Even though they have a website, the last I checked, they do not take orders via the internet so I don't really think of them as an e-tailer. I have gotten some great buys recently from factorydirecttrains.com. My LHS doesn't stock BLI and PCM locos so they aren't really taking business from my LHS. I've done some online buying from Micromark recently but again, most of that is for items my LHS doesn't stock. I do order from Walthers website but it is shipped to my LHS so they get their cut. Unless it is an item Walthers is discounting, I'm paying full MSRP when I buy that way.
SpaceMouse wrote: I want to challenge the assumption that the Internet stores are big. My guess, is that with a couple of exceptions, the operations are smaller than an average LHS. The thing about the Internet is you can appear to be big, without in fact being so.I had a vitamin business that went head to head with the big boys--in fact my customers thought I was as big as any. In a time when $6 Billion was the total market share, we were only grossing $2 million. But our web presence was huge. My guess there are maybe one or two Internet hobby shops bigger than that--most being Mom and Pop 3-4 person operations.
Chip,That are several big on line hobby shops.Let's start with:
M.B.Klein..That is a fairly good size shop from what I read and been told by those that have been there.
http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/
Let's see then we have another good size shop in Trainland/Trainworld.
http://www.trainworld.com/map.htm
Then we have First Hobby
http://www.firsthobby.com/store1/About.asp?SN=2007021812152349
Then we have First Place Hobbies.
How about Caboose Hobbies in Denver?
Toy Train Heaven?
The list is endless.
Well if you think shopping on line is a pain in the fanny then you have shopped at the wrong places.All of the shops I buy from keeps a updated web site as far as what is in stock and what is out of stock.I can order today and have the items in 3-4 days and save $$$ in the process.
As far as the free coffee very few shops go that route these days..The last free coffee hobby shop closed last year when the owner retired.However there was a down side..It was a 2 hour drive just to get there and there was no guarantee he will have what you need in stock.Also his attitude wasn't always the best but,a smile and a good morning/afternoon followed by your name was his usual greeting as you walked in the the door.Sadly that era has ended.The other shops are like this: May I help you?,pay me and leave like you are more of a burden then a paying customer and for that service they want full price? I think not.
No,I lost my taste for hobby shops and their rude ways and their mindless excuses why something isn't in stock.
I will agree that many LHS's are dying by their own hands. There are several in the local market where I refuse to do business. One is in a terrble area of town where I feel like I need a security detail for my car. Another charges full MSRP or more and owner's wife continues to takle more of hte store for her beads and other crafts. Another LHS fails to actually order items requested. I have probably $2,000.00 worth of items that I did not purchase due to the failure of the LHS to acually follow though with the orders. I have spent tens of thousands of dollars with this shop over the past twenty years and this problem has only recently occured. I could have spend the money with on-line retailers but I did not and used it in other areas of my life. This was a loss for the store and the industry.
I have stated this many times on this forum and other when the discussions of the LHS comes to the surface. In order to survive the LHS needs to provide pleasent quality service at competitive prices. It is not possible to survive in this business today without a signifigant online component. Instead of whining about competition, the LHS needs to step up and complete. Without competition we would still have the unreliable cars of the 1970's. Competitions is good for the market and for the nation. Ideally we would look back in a few years a see a diffferent market place where there are fewer but higher quality shops where customer service, inventory, and other factors drive the hobbyist back to the store with pokcets full of cash eager to buy from the local LHS whether that is on-line or around the corner.
BRAKIE wrote:Well if you think shopping on line is a pain in the fanny then you have shopped at the wrong places.All of the shops I buy from keeps a updated web site as far as what is in stock and what is out of stock.I can order today and have the items in 3-4 days and save $$$ in the process.
Well, I recently got a LL berk off the Walthers site for $85 verses $140 at the LHS. That's the kind of exception I was getting at. But, saving five or ten bucks on the internet verses picking through real merchandise just doesn't make the net worth it. Especially with delicate N scale cars and engines. Of course the LHS it isn't convenient for everyone. I'm fortunate to have a well stocked LHS that discounts 20 minutes from me. The title of this thread is "what happened to the hobby shop?" My reply is it's still here for some of us and why.
Really, we should buy trains in whatever manner suits us and not worry about the buisiness models. Buisiness models change and we change with them or follow what works best for us. I think the real problem is we get set in our ways and when the world around us changes, we have difficulty dealing with it.
Like it or not, the internet is the wave of the future for many niche interest areas and shopping. The overhead to build and maintain a web site is far less than a brick and mortar outfit, so it's not surprising to see LHS business moving online.
For those who fear the loss of the "touchy-feely" aspect of actually looking at the merchandise yourself, I would counter that you probably don't get to handle the merchandise you buy all *that much* before you buy it. And the web's move to rich media will begin to counter that issue in time.
Imagine watching a video of that sound loco doing it's thing, with the camera up close and showing you the item from all angles. Now envision a 3D virtual reality image of the item that you can rotate with your mouse, so you can view it from all angles -- you can zoom in, zoom out.
Online car advertisers are already starting to offer this, and with a bit of planning, it's now possible for anyone with a digital camera to make such VR images themselves using simple multiple image stitching software.
One thing for sure, the times they are a changing. I maintain in many cases the new way is not necessarily any better or worse, just different.
Joe Fugate Modeling the 1980s SP Siskiyou Line in southern Oregon
When that door opens I hear "HI!"
When it shuts I smell coffee or some other convience such as sodas or water availible.
It might be 4 hours before I leave, but what a time of "Filling up" on various subjects or going over plans with other regular customers. Sometimes just lending an ear when some one rants about such a problem.
You cannot add a price to a good hobby shop visit.
Oliver Sudden wrote:Wow! I wondered if anyone would even NOTICE my first post in here, or if there were actually other STILL ALIVE PEOPLE interested in model railroading as a hobby, anymore. I came back to see FORTY-TWO replies to my rant about how I couldn't find a decent hobby shop in San Bernadino. --Roger (not really Oliver Sudden, of course)
Wow! I wondered if anyone would even NOTICE my first post in here, or if there were actually other STILL ALIVE PEOPLE interested in model railroading as a hobby, anymore. I came back to see FORTY-TWO replies to my rant about how I couldn't find a decent hobby shop in San Bernadino.
Roger - There's a swap meet in Riverside this coming Saturday. If you want more info, email me through the email link.