Yikes, was I ever made to feel like some kind of DINOSAUR, recently...I was going to meet some "kids" I went to grade school with, and haven't seen in 46 years, in San Bernadino, California. It is the geographical CENTER of the L.A. "basin" where most of the people from way back then, still live. I hadn't been to that town in several decades, and recalled it was a big RAILROAD type town, with the Southern Pacific, Santa Fe, and Union Pacific, all running through town, some on the way to the famed Tehachapi Loop. Which also meant a plethora of hobby shops.
Armed with the internet as a search tool, I found ONE hobby shop still surviving, so called to ask if they had model railroad stock on hand. Told YES, I went early to the mini-reunion, hoping to luck out and find some ancient old boxes on the shelves...maybe even an old VARNEY tank car, originally labelled $1.49 and marked up now to $23.95
The store is in a small shopping center. Maybe 3000 square feet, so quite expansive inside. I walked down aisles of radio controlled airplanes, models of automobiles, little cars that moved by radio control, even dolls and dollhouses. Finally I turned a corner and saw that there were about twenty-two items for sale, that had anything to do with scale modelling. The kind of thing I wouldn't bother to grab for, even if it had a FREE sign on it.
I got this big wave of FEAR over me. My hobby seems to be disappearing! The retail stores I used to hang out in, and drool over all the great stuff on display, have all gone out of business. Okay, so I know the REAL challenge of this hobby is to "SCRATCHBUILD" everything you possibly can, but I am NOT going to ever even TRY to patch together a working GP-9, using nothing but toothpicks and rubber bands. McGyver I am NOT.
Is our hobby "safe" in the hands of the big internet retailers?
THe LHS is in a bad way thanks to the internet and other factors. There is a NEW shop in town that is TRYING to get into the good graces of the railroades BUT they are in trouble. WHY? simple prices. The Hobby Lobby carries WS products that you can get for 40% off with a cupon. The hobby shop is full list or MAYBE 5%. They try to run sales BUT nobody has a clue when they are. The selection is OK for a new shop.
Fast forward to Yesterday. I needed a #2.5 wye for the layout. Did not even slow down I just went direct to the computer had it shipped overnight and had it today. Price is not a worry if you need it now.
The fate of the LHS is in the hands of the local modeler. The LHS in Columbia S.C. has about anything including Cal-Scale BUT that is 56 miles away. Their stock is great for anything but the track I use Walthers 83 they have plentry of good kits from Laser Art and others with ALWAYS a 10-15% discount. The shop has been around for about 20 years and will be around longer because the ownere makes a little profit on a lot of items instead of a lot of profit on a little amouunt of items. I will gladly support an LHS like that since they are trying to help me.
Believe me you will get a LOT MORE input on this topic!!
I'm feeling lucky...
I still have at least two hobby shops, that are still "hobby shops" that stock a lot of model railroading supplies. One has NOTHING but railroading!
On the flip side of this statement, the shop that was in town (twenty two years ago, when I came to town) is LONG GONE! The nearest is now 85 mile to the S.E. with the other, 200 miles to the S. Both have knowledgeable owners and staff, and I make it a point to frequent them when ever possible!
Hi, Ollie!
You probably didn't look in the suburbs and outskirts of LA proper. I hear there are some good ones. Also in San Diego, I think...
Hobby shops are facing stiff competition from the Internet, but the best ones are still going strong. My LHS (Doc's Caboose in KC) is thriving, partly because he has merged the Internet with his brick-and-mortar store. He take orders via email, and will ship them wherever. He's also a fine modeler in his own right, which makes him more finely attuned to the needs of the modern model railroader. In addition, he is slowly building his own line of products; he has a city lighting automation system that is truly awesome. I just wish I could use it...
Anyway, that's how it is - only the strong survive....
---
Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
===================================
"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
I personally have gotten to the point that I don't really care anymore. My favorite train shops around Houston have marked their prices up to almost twice of what I can pay for items on ebay and other web sources in order to make up for their loses. When I need track, ballast, trees and so forth I go to Hobby Lobby now. I scratch build a lot of my own buildings and other items like target signals, so I really don't require a train shop anymore except for an occasional set of decals if I want them right now!. Otherwise I can get those off the web also.
Sorry, but train shop have simply become obsolete...
Tracklayer
I don't trust general hobby shops to carry anything of value for serious model railroaders. It's like if you were a serious audiophile and went to the home entertainment department of Target or Wal-Mart, you'd nodoubt be disappointed.
There are some excellent hobby shops in Southern California, most of them sell nothing but trains:
Original Whistle Stop, Pasadena (LA County)
Allied Model Trains, Culver City (LA County)
The Train Shack, Burbank (LA County)
Milepost 38, Anaheim Hills (OC)
Arnie's Trains, Westminster (OC)
Those are the most well-stocked stores, and there's about a dozen more with less merchandise but still way more trains than a Hobbytown would care to have. They're all listed in the back pages of MR.
train shop locator
http://find.mapmuse.com/interest/mtrain
hope it helps
Every LHS is different because they have different customer bases. Apparently in San Bernadino, model railroading isn't that big. My LHS sells model railroading products exclusively so obviously they have a customer base that will support that. They have been in business over 25 years at their current location.
As to whether LHSes in general will be able to survive in the long term, that is still up in the air. Customers will vote with their dollars if they want to keep them alive. They can't match the e-tailers in price but they can offer two things the e-tailers can't or don't, convenience and service. My guess is the good ones will survive while the ones who just plop their merchandise on a shelf with prices at or near MSRP and expect customers to flock to their stores will end up going the way of the dinosaur. It's a new marketplace and to survive, the LHS as we have known it will have to adapt.
Hobby shops are where most folks got started in the hobby. I recently saw a father and young son at the LHS just starting out. How many times has this scene been played out over the years? Sure, prices are better on the net, but there is an intangible value of a LHS. They are very important to the future of our hobby.
Perhaps if my LHS was a crummy one I would feel differently but I still have a great one to shop at.
Jim
Like others have said, it's Internet competition and changing demand.
I live on the overpopulated East Coast (as opposed to the western one), and there are many hobby shops in the area, including several that are exclusively for model railroaders. The two train shops that I frequent offer competitive discounts of 15 to 25% (Peach Creek and M.B. Klein). Both will do special orders and preorders at discounted prices. Peach Creek is three miles from my house. Klein 25 mi. away, but it is a high volume retailer with a large Internet sales department, along with its traditional bricks and mortar operation.
Another local shop (HobbyWorks) is a trational "all hobbies" shop. Most of their inventory consists of RC planes and cars, military models, and fantasy gaming items--because that's where the demand is--but they do carry some G, O, HO, and N scale items. They sell at list, except for a one-day fall sale and an annual spring progressive markdown sale (starts at 10% first week and gets to 60% off at the end) during which they clear out old merchandise. That is about the only time I consistently shop there. Some years they have a lot of train stuff on sale and I've bought a couple hundred dollars worth at 30% off, or more; some years not.
Nowadays, most of my purchases are either direct from the Walthers sales flyers--especially items offered at 20% off or more with free shipping if I total $100+--or from Internet only discounter HobbiesUSA. But except for items in the specific road name that I model, I don't preorder, because I can often pick stuff up for an even greater discount a few months after the release.
Milwaukee is about two lose a couple of long standing hobby shops. Retirement plays a factor in both closings.
One factor working against the LHS compared to say the early 1960s when I started visiting them is the sheer quantity of stuff you need to stock to be called anywhere near a complete or one stop shop. Some of the smaller shops cannot possibly show the inventory even if they are making a profit at what they do. Even if a shop concentrates on one gauge and scale it is tough to do. Compare a 1965 Walthers catalog to the HO, N, and large scale catalogs of today and you'll see what I mean. And with the ready to run emphasis today the packaging of stuff gets bulkier and bulker.
Dave Nelson
Simple economics.
Stores tend to be there were the customers are. If there's not enough business, the store will close. Like said above, the amount of product has exploded compared to even 20 years ago. In order to attract customers, he has to have a lot of it in stock. We are so accustomed to having a HUGE product selection wherever we go shopping. A successful LHS has to have a big customer base and be able to move a lot of product.
3 factors are very important to get customers in ANY store: * good product selection* low prices* convenience If you walk in a LHS and almost anything you want has to be ordered, and at list price, you walk away. Shopping from your computer where you have all the info and shops at your fingertips sure beats driving an hour to a LHS just to find that they don't have what you want.
Many people lament the passing of LHS, but the simple fact is that times change and a lot of businesses fail. Were there might have been a good customer base once, 25 years later it has disappeared. Older LHS owners are also retiring and there's not always somebody to take over., so the store closes for good. Also, not all LHS have had the werewithal to embrace new kinds of selling (internet) or management techniques.
Frank
The number of hobby shops has been declining for over 20 years here in Nothern Virginia. There are the usual variety of reasons, but in truth small retail businesses have been declining for years. Retail has changed quite a bit - big box stores either discount or frequent sales, Internet discount stores, and large shows on a regular basis which usually undersell msrp. The small retail shop is disappearing.
None of the remaining hobby stores around here carry S scale anymore. So, I do about half of my shopping at train shows and the other half is mail order from the manufacturer/importer. Most of my purchases are at a discount.
Enjoy
Paul
Jerry SP FOREVER http://photobucket.com/albums/f317/GAPPLEG/
There used to be around ten LHSs in the San Francisco Bay Area but there are now only a few left. The two that are in SF are general hobby shops whose model railroad supplies are skimpy or are geared to old Lionel collectors - and are priced at MSRP. The others in the Bay Area, with the exception of one, are mostly toy stores or cater to garden-variety "train set quality" supplies. The exception is The Train Shop in Santa Clara. This shop is a dedicated model railroad hobby shop with a good stock of supplies in all scales, a knowledgeable staff, and priced at 10% to 20% below MSRP. This is the one I go to when I need supplies.
I mostly shop on the internet, especially for big ticket items and hard to get speciality supplies. Besides the convenience and discount pricing, most items I want aren't available at most LHSs. The arts and crafts stores in the area, besides being more convenient than the LHSs, also carry a lot of useful scratch building supplies such as stripwood, styrene, brass, artists paints, and much more than most of our LHSs - and at a discount.
As far as information and advice are concerned, I usually know more about a product or technique than the staff at the LHSs and anything I don't know (which is a lot) I get from forums such as this one and others or from other personal sites ran by modelers who love what they're doing and genuinely are interested in helping others with their modeling.
I remember in the 60s and 70s when the LHS and printed media were the only sources of information on products and modeling techniques. If it wasn't for the internet it would be next to impossible for me to model what I want let alone afford the hobby.
Update on LHS question. New LHS in Aiken, here is an exxample:
Midwest Products Cork Roadbed in a CASE LOT: Shop sells for $1.91 ea or $47.75 per case. After last nights meeting which he did come to I got that case for $31.49. His comment was that he needs to get with the program to survive.
At the meeting he was told that there are not enough model railroaders in the area to support just a Train Shop. He is working on building up his R/C and static models in his store. He is now strarting to carry the high end trendy toys, Big stuffed animals and the complete Thomas line. He is also carrying the mini metals and other HO and N scale cars that is a good cross over business for him.
This is probabaly the only way a newshop can survive. His prices on BLI is full list along with P2K. We have an independent that is 50% brick a morter (his garage) and the balance is internet and DCC Installs. He is doing very well and ALWAYS offers form 30 to 40% to club members.
There are still some good shops out there. I think as long as people run a store in the old ways as well as using the Internet where it suits them they will be fine.
I recall the old 5 and 10 stores from long ago, those were fun. Some good locations even had a small food counter (Breakfast or Lunch) should you get hungry from all of that shopping.
I dont know how long we will have Hobby Shops where I am but I would think that we had a very good run and would be so lucky to see both stores still in business 10 years from now. Some stores on the east coast are closed for good. Others like Tommy Gilbert's of Gettysburg and Kleins of Baltimore are still going strong.
In Texas and Oklahoma, we have a chain store called Hobby Lobby that sells all kinds of hobby activity goods, including model trains. Don't know how many other states it operates in, though.
--Jason Paul Kazarian http://leftbrainedgeeks.com/rf.htm
CAZEPHYR wrote: I resided in the greater Los Angeles area for over thirty years and the extremely large population supports the train shops very well, but several have went out of business there also recently. The LHS do much better with a large population, but there are signs that the Los Angeles market is not doing so well recently. Allied is moving their store and has advertised their store building for lease. Both Longs and Trainquest were not able to continue last year and folded.
I resided in the greater Los Angeles area for over thirty years and the extremely large population supports the train shops very well, but several have went out of business there also recently. The LHS do much better with a large population, but there are signs that the Los Angeles market is not doing so well recently. Allied is moving their store and has advertised their store building for lease. Both Longs and Trainquest were not able to continue last year and folded.
And at least two new hobby (train) shops have opened up in the past five years.
Where did you hear Allied was moving? Where will theyt be moving to? They own their building don't they? I mean it was custom-built to resemble Union Station!
Wow, guys---SCARY!!
I live in the Sacramento area in Northern California, and maybe I've lucked out or God is good, or something, but I've got two hobby shops within about a fourteen-mile radius, one in Sacramento and the other in Roseville, and they're nothing BUT trains! Just about all scales, just about everything you'd need (or their Special Orders are fast and accurate) and they're both TERRIFIC. There's no WAY I'd ever order on internet (except maybe for hard to get brass), there's no way I need to.
Now I know these two shops supply most of Northern California (and probably even further) and every time I go in to either of them, there are guys like myself browsing, and guys who know what they're doing advising them and it's kind of like a really friendly club--I've never seen a Newbie come in and get ignored in either place--
So we're okay here--what's going on everywhere else?
Anyhow, if any of you are ever in the area, it's BRUCES TRAINS on Marconi Ave in Sacramento, and RAILROAD HOBBIES on Atlantic St. in downtown Roseville.
Bring a lunch, you'll NEED IT!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
jpkazarian wrote: In Texas and Oklahoma, we have a chain store called Hobby Lobby that sells all kinds of hobby activity goods, including model trains. Don't know how many other states it operates in, though.--Jason Paul Kazarianhttp://leftbrainedgeeks.com/rf.htm
--Jason Paul Kazarianhttp://leftbrainedgeeks.com/rf.htm
Hobby Lobbys are everywhere. I really don't think of them as model railroad stores. The ones in my area are more geared to artsy, craftsy stuff and Pottery Barn type merchandise. They all have one aisle for model trains. Other than the Woodland Scenics scenery materials, which you can get anywhere, there isn't much for the serious modeler. The trainsets are the low end toys. The only reason I go there is the wide selection they have a cheap acrylic craft paints which I use for brush painting structures and other scenic elements.
I simply have to disagree with those of you that say that ordering by internet is more convenient then going to your LHS. I live in small town/rural Eastern Ontario (Maxville area to be exact) and am fortunate to have two LHS in the area. The closest is in Cornwall, which right on the International border and about a half hour away from the Quebec border. When we go into town, about once a week, I usually go in and stock up on simple, everyday use stuff at this shop. Small LHS that don't really specialize in MRing are great for doing this stuff. This shop in particular is pretty good at keeping a fair size inventory of these useful things, that I really couldn't see my self getting on the net and buying. For my larger purchases I go to Lark Spur Line in Merrickville (about an hours drive, but worth it) which specialises in trains. Only if they don't have the item will I consider going to the net. Call me old fashion, by I firmly believe that the face to face interaction with the shop owner/cashier is a lot better than going on the net, browsing threw endless pages to find what you want.
Duncan
Metro Red Line wrote: CAZEPHYR wrote: I resided in the greater Los Angeles area for over thirty years and the extremely large population supports the train shops very well, but several have went out of business there also recently. The LHS do much better with a large population, but there are signs that the Los Angeles market is not doing so well recently. Allied is moving their store and has advertised their store building for lease. Both Longs and Trainquest were not able to continue last year and folded. And at least two new hobby (train) shops have opened up in the past five years. Where did you hear Allied was moving? Where will theyt be moving to? They own their building don't they? I mean it was custom-built to resemble Union Station!
The moving plan for Allied came from friends who know them and I viewed the advertisement of the building for lease. Brian or Allen do own the building and no real reason has been given to the public for the move. Sorry I don't know. It might actually be they need more space since they do the Station 56 products also.
Unless plans have changed, they are moving a block or so from their present location.
The LHS here in Georgia are down to a bare minimum. The only one worth a darn is 50 miles away from Athens, GA where I live. Trainmaster in Duluth, GA is fairly good sized.
Much of the problem seems to be, even with Trianmaster, that "kits" are going "out of style." Instant gratification generation is the problem. I think when all the OF's die off it's going to be "if it doesn't plug together forget it."
I'm 74 and definitely part of the OF generation! I can remember building stuff that all you got were some trucks, couplers and a bunch of sticks. I keep looking for the side dumping all metal ore car I put together 35 years ago but to no avail.
I think it's TV, remote controls, shoot'em up with the badge shows and Twinkies that are killing the hobby. I mean, when you get in this hobby, you have to squat to get under the track table and nobody is willing to do that anymore. Besides they might miss another rerun of CSI Miami!
MAbruce wrote:Humm. New guy coming in on a Friday to stoke what is usually hot button issue (LHS vs Internet). Is it me, or is there something very familiar about this?
This has a very familiar tune....All of a sudden I think some-ones winding up a vox pop for maybe their own particular reasons...........