The "N" Crowd

[NS2591]

I have run Kato 6 axles on an 9 3/4 curve and they went through...They didn't stay coupled to anything. On my layout the smallest curve is probably about a 13. and they make it through there with everything coupled. On an 11" curve you should be fine. You'll want to put the the long shank couplers on the engines. I also have an Atlas SD9 and that runs fine through small curves becuase its just a little bit longer than a 4 axle

[claymore1977]

Hey all,

Need to pick the brain of the experts.  I am still in the planning stages of jumping back into the hobby.  I have a fair amount of old HO gear, but no space to put use it, so I am opting to go the N scale route.  That being said, what is the minimum radius that a 6-axled loco can safelyt handle without derailing?

By first 'layout' will be a small diorama since I have not the room to get anything bigger than a portable 24" x 24" right now, AND i would like to practice on something small.  That being said, I am probably going to be limited to 11" curves.  Now I plan on getting a decent GP-40, but I was wondering about a 6 axled beastie...?

[nscaler711]

Mike you are not far from I. I live in Columbia Mo. Also I happen to model the UP. Unfortunantly I model Modern UP Equipment (i.e. SD70M's and GE whatevers, such long names for their equipment) the SD24's are beautiful models! ive seen a few in the LHS i would get one if i wasnt on a budget right now (personally I may model 1990-2007+ but looking at those locos i forget about my era!)

[mls1621]

Nscaler711,

I've come to the same conclusion.  I was trying again this morning, with all my DigiTrax books laid open, to make it go faster.

What I found is that the Lenz decoder in this locomotive won't support the speed tables.  I reset CV29 from 38, 28/128 speed steps w/o speed tables, to 54, 28/128 speed steps w/speed tables.  It saved the setting and displayed the "good" response, but when going back to verify the setting, it had reverted back to 38.

I'm going to look into a DigiTrax decoder for this locomotive, maybe then I can run it with my brass turbine.

 

[nscaler711]

Very true Cederstrand no such thing as too much power on the UP.......jus look at the Big Boys, Challengers, DD35's, DD40AX's All those turbines (sorry i forgot their true names) and five or six EMD, GE lashups that they do. 6 x 4000 hp = 24000 hp for a mile long train!

Mike, for your Lenz/Digitrax problem.......You might have to find a Digitrax Decoder that can replace the Lenz decoder in your SD24.

[Cederstrand]

Mike,

Sorry you cannot do what you wanted with the turbine and SD-24. However, the upside is that now you can justify buying another SD-24 (or more) and pull more freight. Besides, with UP there is no such thing as "too much power", is there? Good luck! Rob

[mls1621]

It's official.  My SD-24 cannot be speed matched to my turbine.

I spoke with David at DigiTrax this morning and followed his reccommendations with no positive results.  I asked if one of their decoders would help, but he assured me that the scale speed motor was the problem.

I emailed Atlas to see if another motor was avaiable, that would fit the chassis.  Amazingly, they responded the same day, but again, no positive outcome.

My beautiful SD24 will run alone on my layout, unless I buy another era correct locomotive from Atlas to double head with it.

[mls1621]

I received a response today, from a member of the Yahoo DDC group.  He mentioned that "some" Lenz decoders don't support CV6.  In my limited experience, here and at my neighbor's layout, none support it that I've seen.

He stated that, I'll need to use the speed table, CV67-CV94 to speed match this locomotive with my turbine.

 I'll report back to the assembled masses on my progress or frustration.

 

[mls1621]

I recently purchased a decoder equipped Atlas SD-24 to replace the old GP-7 consisted with my brass turbine.

The problem is the new "scale speed" motors Atlas is putting in the new motive power.  It's impossible to speed match a new Atlas locomotive with power from other manufacturers. 

The Lenz decoder doesn't seem to like being programmed on my DigiTrax system either.    Addressing the locomotive isn't a problem, but changing CV's is another story.  They seem to accept the new values, but going back to recheck finds them back at original settings.

Has anyone else attempted to speed match the new Atlas locos with others, I'd be interested in seeing your experiences.

I'm tempted to get a DigTrax decoder for my SD-24, but I don't think it would help.  I'm afraid I'm doomed to running this loco as a single. 

Really?  Believe me I am definitely going to pay attention to any answers you get on this one!!!

I even changed from 128 step speed control to 28 step, so I wouldn't have to twist the throttle knob so much.  I have an H15-44, but it's just used for switching and is never consisted. 

The SD-24 is a gorgeous locomotive, great detail, but it'll be used for power on a local or a turn.  It's a shame, it looked awesome with the turbine.

[R. T. POTEET]

I recently purchased a decoder equipped Atlas SD-24 to replace the old GP-7 consisted with my brass turbine.

The problem is the new "scale speed" motors Atlas is putting in the new motive power.  It's impossible to speed match a new Atlas locomotive with power from other manufacturers. 

The Lenz decoder doesn't seem to like being programmed on my DigiTrax system either.    Addressing the locomotive isn't a problem, but changing CV's is another story.  They seem to accept the new values, but going back to recheck finds them back at original settings.

Has anyone else attempted to speed match the new Atlas locos with others, I'd be interested in seeing your experiences.

I'm tempted to get a DigTrax decoder for my SD-24, but I don't think it would help.  I'm afraid I'm doomed to running this loco as a single. 

Really?  Believe me I am definitely going to pay attention to any answers you get on this one!!!

[mls1621]

I recently purchased a decoder equipped Atlas SD-24 to replace the old GP-7 consisted with my brass turbine.

The problem is the new "scale speed" motors Atlas is putting in the new motive power.  It's impossible to speed match a new Atlas locomotive with power from other manufacturers. 

The Lenz decoder doesn't seem to like being programmed on my DigiTrax system either.    Addressing the locomotive isn't a problem, but changing CV's is another story.  They seem to accept the new values, but going back to recheck finds them back at original settings.

Has anyone else attempted to speed match the new Atlas locos with others, I'd be interested in seeing your experiences.

I'm tempted to get a DigTrax decoder for my SD-24, but I don't think it would help.  I'm afraid I'm doomed to running this loco as a single. 

[nscaler711]

my Kato SD70M

 

[R. T. POTEET]

I have been having more bloomin' trouble in the last forty-eight hours getting my responses to post; I just lost this one!

ps: The quote: "I'm not a failure; I've just discovered ten thousand things that don't work." is from Thomas Edison, I believe.

I got an email challenging my 'ten thousand things' attribute awhile back and a few weeks ago I went to a couple of books of quotations to satisfy my own curiousity; I will admit that I could not find this quotation attributed to Mr Franklin.  I did find your reference to Mr Edison; Edison's quote is on tape and, therefore, cannot be misinterpreteed but his quote is a 'no cigar' close with enough dissimiliarity to make me suspicious that he may have been paraphrasing - unfortunately it would not be the first time that the notable Wizard of Menlo Park got caught doing that.  I need to get to a library and find a unique monograph on Benjamin Franklin and his sayings; should I not find it there then I will admit defeat and modify my profile.

My search did reveal one thing however; I have heard 'He who would sacrifice his liberty for a measure of security will shortly find himself with neither' attributed to everyone from George Washington to Eisenhower; turns out it was good ole' Ben who said that and three separate entries in these books of quotations gave identical attributes from the Pennsylvania Gazette.

NOTE1: Cedarstrand, I will get you a copy of that MR article as soon as I run it to ground.

NOTE2: nscaler711, I'll get your articles to you just as soon as I run them to ground also.

[nscaler711]

I Believe Cederstrand is correct about your Quote. sorry.

Umm yeah im still interested in that copies......still very excited......

Im thinking about doing a seasonal change in my layout.......

Christmas in July and Beach fun in December........meaning every summer I will change my layout to winter and every winter ill change it to summer.......i dont have the money right now to change from Spring or Fall. 

[Cederstrand]

If you thought you were interested in looking at this particular article I will get you a copy.

Sure, would enjoy reading it. Thanks! Pleased to report our only indoor cat does not like the computer and prefers to stare out the window at our farm critters. -Rob ps: The quote: "I'm not a failure; I've just discovered ten thousand things that don't work." is from Thomas Edison, I believe.

[R. T. POTEET]

Note: I had a response almost ready to post at 11:30 last night when one of the six-week old kitties my wife and I have running around here for the moment made a leap from my lap and landed firmly on the keyboard and my response evaporated under the 'back' key.  I love cats, I just wish I had a good book of recipes.
 
Cedarstrand, I sincerely appreciate your offer.

Addressing your 'new shell' issue from your first paragraph:

In their September, 1967 issue {i}Model Railroader Magazine[/i] published an article by Jim Boyd titled Lagged Boilers are Easier.  I do hope that I remember this article correctly and I have not scrambled it up with details from other articles; it has been quite awhile since I last looked at it. If I remember correctly the author used telescoping brass tubing cut to varying lengths - filing where necessary - to build up the profile of a Burlington Class S-4 Hudson; when he had things fleshed out to the appropriate dimensions he affixed a wrapper - the 'lagged' from the title - of properly embossed brass foil/sheet to the outside and then superdetailed the whole thing. It was a commendable job.  I looked at this article with some interest when it appeared but I was a relatively new modeler and just then getting started in constructing die-cast kits from Cary/Mantua, Bowser, and Hobbytown of Boston - they were still there at that time - so I never took any action beyond reading the article but it has continued to draw on my imagination as I have encountered it while browsing through my back issues..

Of late I have been giving some thought to the scratchbuilding of N Scale steam locomotives and, naturally, this article keeps coming to mind.  For other reasons I will within the next couple of years be acquiring a lathe and mill/drill and I think I know how to power a scratchbuilt mechanism. The manufacturers never seem to bring out what I would like to see produced; at least they don't ever seem to fall within shooting distance of my budget when they do.  I have often wondered if Mr Boyds procedures could not be made to work with styrene but doing it in brass would give it the appropriate heft for tractive effort without having to design some sort of white metal or pewter weight casting.  Of course there are not an appreciable number of lost-wax castings available for scratchbuilding so . . . . . . . . . .

My magazines for this era are stored away in boxes and stacked haphazardly in the front bedroom; I am in the process of doing some cleaning up and I suppose I will encounter this particular issue in the next little while.  I promised nscaler711 a copy of an article on the old Wabash's Columbia, Missouri branch as well as drawings of EMD's SW1200 so I will need to extract those at the same time.  If you thought you were interested in looking at this particular article I will get you a copy. Will email or pm you on this issue.

There is one other thing; MR ran an article in the early-'70s when I was stationed in Germany about someone who built his locomotives out of wood.

[TrainsRMe1]

    That looks great, I just love a great "N" scale layout that has UP in it's theme

[Cederstrand]

I like the smattering of rocks at the base of the cliffs...nice realistic touch. Cool engine! There are a few older UP deisels I have kept and one is my Gas Turbine which has sentimental value. Sold the old U50 and many other decent runners to pay for the new steamers. No regrets, just wish I could have afforded to keep ALL of them.

Think I found the ideal boiler base for the little steam loco project: a 300 WIN MAG casing. Not sure how easy it will be to cut and file yet, but the size is ideal.  Rob

[mls1621]

Thanks for the kind words, Rob.

Here's one of it at the other end of the layout, just before entering a tunnel.

And here it is coming out the other end.

 

[Cederstrand]

OK, I would like to make a new shell to place on an old running steam loco chassis. Is there a material I can use (carve) for this purpose? I may make use of some parts of older shells laying around for this project. Looking to create a Mother Hubbard-like loco and perhaps a tiny logging loco as well. Have always wanted to try this but can definately use some advice from anyone who has had experience in this area. Thanks!

UPDATE: I am now certain that the "spinning drivers" are indeed caused by dried out (almost non-exsistent) traction tires. All other wheel sets spin freely and the part of the drivers that sit on the rails are metal. Will add "new traction tires" to the growing list of things I need to get. Thanks for the suggestions.

rtpoteet: It may be a while, but if I get a bag of new traction tires, I'll be happy to send a pair your way.

Mike: That photo of your UP turbine and string infront of the rocks has me drooling on the keyboard. Nice work!

Thanks again to all.  -Rob

[R. T. POTEET]

Has anyone heard whether Overland Models is still planning on doing anything in N Scale under their Tower 55 brand name?  When they first inaugurated this line a couple of years back their initial advertising indicated that they were 'eventually' going to do some N Scale offerings but I don't recall hearing anything else since then.

Also, it was announced last summer that Athearn was planning a FP45/F45 offering due this summer.  Any further word on that?

[nscaler711]

Love those Pics Admiral_Ritt

Disc Brakes NO WAY!!! thats just too cool.........i wonder what the calipers look like?

and could i paint them and they be seen? 

[Anonymous]

This Is probably overkill but here's some Pics of the Pacific Surfliner trip I took today from LA TO San Diego.

Side of Engine Cab/front,  Engineer doing his walkabout near by.

Trucks close-up....want to give them a big back of the shoulder slap, if it had one.

Santa Fe Station San Diego.  Out of FOCUS.

Engine-Car Couple Close up.  There doens't appear to be any way for Engine Crew to go into the Cars while in motion

Car_Axle_Disk---boy those Flanges have gotten small over the years, and DISK brakes? Iguess I am too used to looking at 50' vintage equipment.   Hey HO, folks you are prototypical on those modern flanges right?

Repairs, cement/steel mix (durability? 50 yrs)

CHEAP RE-TIED repairs   guess that's and old repair mode.

NEAR SOLANO Beach, CA,  It was a tuesday, slow day at the beach.

                      MY PROJECT the saga----N-scale moguling

Theme-- SF East Bay Delta -Sacramento-Sierra Foothills,  Transverse Calif. for short.

Period:  1950-54.

Rail Users.  UPAC, WPAC, ATSF.  &   BC & CS RR  (Berkley,Concord & Central Sierra RR, FrLnc)

Unique Features: River Harbor slip & Freighter. AirField w/ small Air Line. 3rivers snaking thru.

Status: under construction, Bonds Sold, investors demanding results.

[NS2591]

I'm also tempted to try one of the Kato AC4400 or SD70MAC with the new MRC sound decoders as described in the July MR Product reviews. 

Those will also fit the Dash 9s, the older SD40-2s, and anything else that a Digitrax DN163K1B will fit. 

Is there room for the speaker in those units?

I would assume so. I own a Dash 9, 2 SD40-2s, an AC4400, SD70M, and a SD70MAC and they all have the same frame. I don't know if they are all the same length but the share a pretty common frame and I'm not sure where the speaker is going in the AC44 or the SD70MAC but I'm sure its going in the back in the little slot, and like I said they all have that. If MRC Decoders where better I might try one, but all of my MRC Decoder experiences have been bad ones. 

[R. T. POTEET]

Well I for one won't buy anything with Rapido couplers. If enough N scalers do the same, Rapido is bye bye. So, N scalers, just say NO to rapiDOE.

That is exactly what I said; you have the Rapido coupler because the economics of the early '60s mandated their use.  The economics of the mid-'00s still mandate their use. When Kadee came out with their first N Scale knuckle coupler in the late '60s early-'70s the manufacturers didn't beat all over themselves converting their products to rid themselves of Rapido couplers.  Most of them have continued to put their products on the store shelves with Rapidos and that, I contend, is likely to persist into the indefinite future.

I body mount my Kadees- at least I will have my complete freight car fleet converted by the time my current inactivity comes to an end in about two years and I begin building my new/next layout. I discard the trucks and put Kadee trucks (w/o couplers) under all my freight and passenger cars. I will accept the Kadee cars with truck mounted couplers and I will put these under unit-train cars where there is no coupling/uncoupling; I don't want other manufacturer's cars such as Atlas to be provided with anything but Rapidos - I know Atlas has begun using these stupid Accumates - because all that happens here is the price goes up a few bucks.

Economics will rule the roost here; if you can get modelers to boycott Rapido couplers then you will most likely drive them from the market.  I will not, however, participate in such a boycott because, with the exception of any Kadee cars which I may purchase, a set of Kadees must be purchased with every car and that automatically adds to each car's cost.  I don't want to pay for Accumates because I'm not going to use them. 

[Anonymous]

Well I for one won't buy anything with Rapido couplers. If enough N scalers do the same, Rapido is bye bye. So, N scalers, just say NO to rapiDOE.

[R. T. POTEET]

One thing I'd like to see changed with N scale.

That is the coupler situation. There seems to be three. Knuckle, Rapido and Kato. Although Kato is compatible with knuckle, the Kato couplers that I have seen don't open up so they dont really couple right. Once coupled, they are ok. However they should be standard kadee or microtrains, knuckle style couplers. Bachman and a few others are the only ones still providing with Rapido. If Bachman would change, Rapido would go the way of the dodo bird. Which would be good in my opinion.

pilot, as appetizing as your proposal sounds it just ain't gonna happen and I can gee-go-guarantee you that the Rapido ain't gonna go the way of the dodo bird.

HO Scalers went through a twenty year knock down drag out brawl over couplers.  Everybody who made HO Scale locomotives and/or rolling stock patented their own unique coupler which they put on their equipment; if you were using XYZ cars you had XYZ couplers which would not mate with PDQ couplers so you would be inclined to continue to buy XYZ cars for compatibility. In some (rare) circumstances manufacturers would not market their couplers independently and if you needed a replacement you sent the car back to the manufacturer where the coupler was replaced.  This kept you from purchasing cars from, say, ABC and putting DEF couplers on them.  In 1946(?) Kadee upset the apple cart when they patented their first knuckle coupler and began to produce it with coupler boxes designed to allow conversion; this put the handwriting on the wall.  Kadee, however, would not license their coupler for outside manufacture and so the NMRA set out to design a uniform coupler acceptable to all parties.  In the mid-'50s this manifested itself as the X2F and which became standard on HO Scale rolling stock. Only Kadee, when they came out with their HO Scale line of rolling stock, did not conform to the X2F standard and equipped their product with their couplers.

N Scale manufacturers were determined to avoid this pitfall particularly Rapido, then the largest manufacturer of N Scale equipment.  Lone Star's OOO Scale loop-hook coupler was never really a contender.  Rapido threw their patents open to all comers for manufacture with the marketing idea that compatibility among N Scale - as opposed to OOO Scale - manufacturers would insure Rapido's continued dominance of the N Scale market. It worked . . . . . . . . . . for awhile anyway. Only Kadee swam against the current and, as they would subsequently do with their HO Scale line, marketed their N Scale products - you know Kadee as Micro-Trains but 'old habits die hard' and I continue to this day to call Micro Trains Kadees - exclusively with their knuckle couplers. If you wanted to continue to use Rapido couplers then you had to go to the expense of purchasing truck/coupler combinations so equipped.

Rapido couplers are still the standard of the N Scale market and are manufactured in the millions yearly by beaucoup manufacturers and Kadee/Micro-Trains still have enough patents in effect to insure that their knuckle coupler will remain proprietary property for a few more years. Rapido it is and I'm afraid, Rapido it is going to stay.

Kadee/Micro-Trains may be just a little on the expensive side but if you want to get beyond Rapido then Kadee/Micro-Trains is the way to go.

[R. T. POTEET]

Being a knowledgable N crowd, thought I would post this question here. Perhaps one of you can answer this:

OK, I have a little N-scale 4-4-0 steam loco (Bachmann) that has been
stored for years with very little run time. Ran fine years ago. Now, on the track, it spins in
reverse (going virtually nowhere) and barely makes much progress in
forward. Piled weight on top it just to see and still makes little
difference. It's not the test track, as other locos have no trouble.
Does this sound like a traction tire issue or??? Thanks for any help
with this. -Rob

Yep, it do sound like a traction tire issue.  Your reference to an increased weight not doing anything is a sure giveaway.

Traction tires are made out of either neoprene or vinyl and during this long period of storage yours dried up and shrunk and it ain't no longer tractioning.  It may not even be there and you are running metal on metal.  Anyway it sounds like the guy whose carburator wasn't carburatoring, whose sparkplugs weren't sparking, and whose pistons weren't working.

You might be able to get some kind of lubricant which will cause the neoprene or vinyl to swell back up and resume functioning in the manner for which it was designed.  Barring that you are going to have to acquire a new traction tire.  Your local can get them through Walthers'; they are found on page 106 of the 2007 N Scale catalog.

If you do opt to get a package of these I need one to fit a Rapido Pacific; I'll email you my address and you can send it to me and I'll send you a buck for it. 

[nscaler711]

I had a 2-6-2 Prarie that did the same thing until the driving rods popped off Bachmann "Quality" control problems i guess

[Anonymous]

Hey Guys I am sorta Back. I will check in when I can at work. Still havent done any building on my track, It is back in planing stages. I currently got my sundays back so I hope to be getting going in the next week or so. Have to clean up the train table and get a bar stool. I see things have taken off here and am happy to see it. Hi To All my old friends And Hi to all the new. I will try to get up the plan for your thoughts. Talk to you all soon.

Curt