curtw_944 wrote:It is amazing how the focus in life has turned from the family and floped to material wealth.
I have bad news for you: based on the age you give, the attitude you describe became widespread before you were born.
When you were six years old (I think), there was even a very popular movie called "Wall Street" whose promo line was, "Greed is good. Greed works."
andrechapelon wrote: Mike Wolf is the Anti-Christ. I don't know what this has to do with anything, but that assertion seems to be on track to becoming the model railroad equivalent of Godwin's Law.
Mike Wolf is the Anti-Christ. I don't know what this has to do with anything, but that assertion seems to be on track to becoming the model railroad equivalent of Godwin's Law.
Ah, but today we spell redemption "U-P."
IRONROOSTER wrote: TA462 wrote: Curt, sorry you feel that people have become materialistic. I work hard for what I have and I feel I earned the right to own everything I own. Personally I don't think that people with lots of material wealth are materialistic, I think its more them just enjoying the fruits of their labour. The Materialistic Manifesto!!! This isn't the forum for a philosophical discussion, but "people with lots of material wealth" didn't earn it, even under the loose definition of "earn" that we have today.Enjoy Paul
TA462 wrote: Curt, sorry you feel that people have become materialistic. I work hard for what I have and I feel I earned the right to own everything I own. Personally I don't think that people with lots of material wealth are materialistic, I think its more them just enjoying the fruits of their labour.
Curt, sorry you feel that people have become materialistic. I work hard for what I have and I feel I earned the right to own everything I own. Personally I don't think that people with lots of material wealth are materialistic, I think its more them just enjoying the fruits of their labour.
That's a rather outrageous statement to make without even a hint of evidence or argument. Getting rich in America today is not easy and entails real sacrifices.
You may read in the paper about the people on Wall Street who make a lot of money but what you never read about is the years upon years of crap that a high powered career requires. Just to get an entry level job requires graduating from the Ivy League which in turns requires straight As in high school plus great SATs, activities, etc.
And then once you get in the door, you have years of pain ahead of you. For the first 7-8 years you will live in the office. A normal week is getting in at 9:30am and leaving at 11pm Monday through Friday plus another 10 hours on Sunday. A bad week (and these happen maybe once every six weeks) is 9:30am to 2am Monday through Sunday with at least 1 day thrown in when you spend the entire night at the office. This is not an exaggeration. I know because I did it for 2 years. If you make it through this 7-8 year meatgrinder you'll start to see some improvement in your hours but no one works 40 hours a week on Wall Street. The best you'll ever get to is 60.
In addition to this, your bosses own you and they are not kind masters after years of living on 4-6 hours of sleep. Everything is done last minute. If your boss is leaving for the airport at 7am then you're printing the presentations at 5am and delivering them to his apartment. Make a typo and you'll get screamed at in front of your colleagues. Plans get changed; vacations get cancelled. I knew a guy who missed the birth of his child because he couldn't leave the office. This is life on Wall Street. It's bad enough that I wouldn't go back even for the 50% pay raise.
Ultimately, life is about choices. You can choose to give up years of your life for more money or you can choose to have free time and less money. But don't go around spouting nonsense about how the rich don't earn their money.
One Track Mind wrote: Guess CNJ831 missed my post on page 5 with some real numbers we all seem to be craving. Maybe I should quit being sarcastic on this forum. Proof that the hobby is dying? Seems like hobby shop closings are always mentioned as proof. I will say it again and again. Hobby shops closed before there was an internet. All kinds of shops close for all kinds of reasons and it has nothing to do with the supposed death of a hobby. So you want real numbers? I'll do it again. This time a little more in depth. Sorry for the length of the post. I'll say it again in case you missed it. 9 open & 4 closed. Now am I a blinded defensive idiot train store owner? Possibly. I know what happens in Arkansas may not reflect the nationwide trend. But if you want hard numbers from the perspective of the hobby must MUST be dying because "Look how all the train shops are closing!" well then there ya go.
Guess CNJ831 missed my post on page 5 with some real numbers we all seem to be craving. Maybe I should quit being sarcastic on this forum.
Proof that the hobby is dying? Seems like hobby shop closings are always mentioned as proof. I will say it again and again. Hobby shops closed before there was an internet. All kinds of shops close for all kinds of reasons and it has nothing to do with the supposed death of a hobby.
So you want real numbers? I'll do it again. This time a little more in depth. Sorry for the length of the post.
I'll say it again in case you missed it. 9 open & 4 closed.
Now am I a blinded defensive idiot train store owner? Possibly. I know what happens in Arkansas may not reflect the nationwide trend.
But if you want hard numbers from the perspective of the hobby must MUST be dying because "Look how all the train shops are closing!" well then there ya go.
One Track - No, I didn't miss anything. However, as you yourself acknowledge, numbers addressing a local situation can't be assumed to be representative of a national statistic or trend. If you could provide figures for shop closings and openings from a national hobby retailer's magazine, now that would be something else.
Personally, I can give an equally dismal "local" figure for model railroad hobby shop survival. Twenty years ago I had 8 within an hour's drive, one of which was probably the nation's largest mail-order house as well. I now have only 1 shop (the last one to have opened) and, while a very good one, traffic is nothing like what it once was. But that's probably not representative of the true national figures either.
Incidentally, are you aware that back in the 1950's there were well in excess of 100 established hobby shops in both New York City and Chicago!
CNJ831
selector wrote: IRONROOSTER wrote: TA462 wrote: Curt, sorry you feel that people have become materialistic. I work hard for what I have and I feel I earned the right to own everything I own. Personally I don't think that people with lots of material wealth are materialistic, I think its more them just enjoying the fruits of their labour. The Materialistic Manifesto!!! This isn't the forum for a philosophical discussion, but "people with lots of material wealth" didn't earn it, even under the loose definition of "earn" that we have today.Enjoy Paul (sigh)...I'll go get some popcorn...
(sigh)...I'll go get some popcorn...
curtw_944 wrote: I guess some of you missed my point that I was trying to make and thats ok. There are those of us who work hard for what we have and we value what we have every day. Then there are those who spend money to get things that make "us" Happy, Rather then focus on the family and they do work hard But they dont understand the value of a dolar or the things they have. Now if your spending your hard earned buck for you and the family then good for you!! You better your family. But those who dont care about family and those who have money but have hardly worked a day in their life for what they have, they dont understand or Have Values... And That is the point I was trying to make. Know body seems to know the Value of their things any more. Just my observations. I am going to step out on this one and get some popcorn as well..... Curt
I guess some of you missed my point that I was trying to make and thats ok. There are those of us who work hard for what we have and we value what we have every day. Then there are those who spend money to get things that make "us" Happy, Rather then focus on the family and they do work hard But they dont understand the value of a dolar or the things they have. Now if your spending your hard earned buck for you and the family then good for you!! You better your family. But those who dont care about family and those who have money but have hardly worked a day in their life for what they have, they dont understand or Have Values... And That is the point I was trying to make. Know body seems to know the Value of their things any more. Just my observations.
I am going to step out on this one and get some popcorn as well.....
Curt
Boy, I ought to know better by now to leave this alone...
Nobody knows the value of their things anymore? That's a tough argument to make without knowing people personally. I will agree that it seems many people today don't, but I don't think the generalization you make can be substantiated. Furthermore, most of the model railroaders I know tend to have strong family ties. The person you describe as work-first probably doesn't have time for trains. You can't always know what motivates someone, and not everyone with money got it by being a bad person. I financed a lot of my model train equipment with my combat pay from a tour in Baghdad. Trust me, I know the value of that stuff! Don't worry, I also upgraded my wife's engagement ring, so the world is in balance.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
TA462 wrote:Curt, sorry you feel that people have become materialistic. I work hard for what I have and I feel I earned the right to own everything I own. Personally I don't think that people with lots of material wealth are materialistic, I think its more them just enjoying the fruits of their labour.
This is getting a bit far into the weeds, but... technically, materialism pertains to any acquisition that is intended for one's personal benefit or pleasure, and which one does not need to survive. So, everyone of us who has indulged their pleasure in the hobby, even to the tune of one red cent, is materialistic. We could argue along the continuum about who is more materialistic (and holier) than the next person.
It seems that when I was young, I was required to amuse myself with analog versions of whatever, including music on phonograph records. That also included books. Now, it seems that the youth of today in the industrialized/western world, as a group, not all of them, find the virtual and self-absorbed universes behind their headphones and game paddles to be a strong force to follow. They even text message when the analog voice will no longer do. My point, finally, is that in order to do these things, which are really unnecessary, they must pay for at least one rather costly implement...but something that costs only as much as...well, a good steam locomotive!
Anyway, materialism is not the purview of only the young. The penchanct for acquisitiveness extends well into our past, and perhaps most recently and acutely in the minds of the Boomers. That, regrettably, would include me. My Dad, who grew up in the 30's and 40's won't spend a cent. I ask him why he has no hobbies or toys, and his frank and quick answer is that he grew up during the Depression. No money for fun stuff...period.
CNJ831 wrote: However...while the three negative points have been documented as very real, the three supposed positives are indicative of either speculation or refer to aspects actually rather unrelated to the question of the hobby's general health. There is absolutely no information available as to what impact the Internet has had on model railroading, pro or con. In particular, it should be noted that even this MR forum apparently draws less than 10% of the supposed probable total number of hobbyists. Likewise, when the question arises, most posters say they still get MR or other hardcopy publications monthly. So what is the positive aspect or indication of growth? Of course products have improved over the years. Would anybody be happy if only the same items from 1986 were available today? Were the products sold in 1956 the same quality as available in 1986? What we see here is simply called progress. Actually, it is also an indicator of manufacturers tending toward a more limited, higher quality, higher priced market...certainly not an expansion into the areas dominated by average modelers. Yes, the materials to construct outstanding layouts today are available. But is there anything to suggest that more great layouts, or layouts period, are actually being built? I doubt it. On this forum (and most others, for that matter) one sees 10-20 track-on-plywood "layouts" pictured for every even semi-detailed/finished one. That's no better a ratio then what I've seen for decades.
However...while the three negative points have been documented as very real, the three supposed positives are indicative of either speculation or refer to aspects actually rather unrelated to the question of the hobby's general health.
There is absolutely no information available as to what impact the Internet has had on model railroading, pro or con. In particular, it should be noted that even this MR forum apparently draws less than 10% of the supposed probable total number of hobbyists. Likewise, when the question arises, most posters say they still get MR or other hardcopy publications monthly. So what is the positive aspect or indication of growth?
Of course products have improved over the years. Would anybody be happy if only the same items from 1986 were available today? Were the products sold in 1956 the same quality as available in 1986? What we see here is simply called progress. Actually, it is also an indicator of manufacturers tending toward a more limited, higher quality, higher priced market...certainly not an expansion into the areas dominated by average modelers.
Yes, the materials to construct outstanding layouts today are available. But is there anything to suggest that more great layouts, or layouts period, are actually being built? I doubt it. On this forum (and most others, for that matter) one sees 10-20 track-on-plywood "layouts" pictured for every even semi-detailed/finished one. That's no better a ratio then what I've seen for decades.
This is certainly a legitimate interpretation of the supposed positive signs and one which I'm somewhat inclined to agree with. My point was that even if you take these trends as positives, they are still consistent with a outlook for the hobby that is troubling.
Not only that, but the automobile biz must be dying out, too. There are a lot fewer gas stations than there used to be. Come to think of it, there are a lot fewer airlines and railroads than there used to be, too.
Andre
Train/Hobby shops closed in Arkansas in the last 15 years:
1. the shop in Clarksville. Reason: owner retired, poor health, age factor2. the shop in Arkadelphia. Reason: was a Lionel dealer part-time...was actually a furniture store or something3. a shop in Little Rock. Reason: he's a friend and customer of mine before and after he had his shop. I won't state any reason here as it would sort of be speculative.4. a shop in North Little Rock. Reason: 76 year old owner retired.
OK are we keeping score here? That's 4 stores closed, put that in "The Hobby Is Doomed" category.
Train/Hobby shops opened in Arkansas in the last 15 years:
1. the shop in Jacksonville. Technically this is an older shop that did not carry much in the way of trains, but has a new owner and has greatly expanded the train department. It counts in my eyes...certainly more competition for me.2. the newer shop in Fayetteville: going great guns from what I hear. Store recently doubled in size.3. a new shop in Van Buren: carries a lot of stuff, including trains.4. a newer Hobbytown USA in Fort Smith: started out with a better train department than a lot of HUSAs have.5. The store in Conway started up and then moved to Mountain Home: still in business6. The store that was started in Pine Bluff has moved to a newly renovated train station in Bald Knob. 7. The store I've heard about in Harrison: don't know much about it yet, may only be a Lionel dealer. Not sure.8. The store in Eureka Springs: rather eclectic, I've heard, as that fits the character of the town, but I know they are a Marklin dealer among other lines.9. My shop.
So that's 9....NINE!...new shops that have opened - and remain open - in our state in the internet era.
9 open, 4 closed.
selector wrote: curtw_944 wrote: This comes up every couple of months. The Hobby maybe shrinking But I dont feel it is dying. There will always be hobbies no mater what the time or century is. If you really want to know what is Killing the hobby and all hobbies for that mater look at your selves and the genral populas. Alot has to do with the way kids have been raised. Kids from the baby boomer generation or kids 30 and younger are spoiled. They have never had to work Hard for anything. Parents from the world wars didnt want to raise there kids the way they were raised. They provided what they could when they could and brought up there kids the best they could. Now that being said the kids from the spoiled generation are bringing their kids up in an instant gratification culture! If we cant have it done and now then why bother!?!?! They dont know how to work hard for what they have, most everything has been handed to them when they screamed for it. I am 25 Just turned the quater century mark last sat. the 18th. I for one am Discusted with the way the US has become. There is no loyality in employees or employers. Case and Point Employees want to make all the money in the world and want it now! If they have to work to hard for the raise they quit when the going get tough because they may break a nail. On the flip side an Employer who feels that you dont do enough for the company will terminate you even if you are working 12-16 hours a day and dont take any breaks. this is because you dont bring enough $$$ in or produce enough product so they can Pad their pockets. The cost of living has become so outragious that no one has a disspossiable income any more. An that could be why their is a down turn in the hobby these days as well. Any way I am going to get off my box now. Every time this question comes up it irks me. So in closeing I have a question to pose for ALL OF YOU, Why do we always look at the negitive in life, What Happened to the Possitive? Lets stop complaining about the death and enjoy what we have. Curt Not that I am disagreeing with your premise and conclusions, Curt, but I wonder how many generations of later life adults have lamented that the generation of young adults that follows them is spoiled and doomed to learn many hard lessons. The obvious answer is... one more than the number of generations of young people who shake their heads at the apparent folly and blinkered conservatism of their elders. However, it is strange, to me, to see someone as young as you take the position of we fuddy-duddies! Again, not that I disagree with you or anything...
curtw_944 wrote: This comes up every couple of months. The Hobby maybe shrinking But I dont feel it is dying. There will always be hobbies no mater what the time or century is. If you really want to know what is Killing the hobby and all hobbies for that mater look at your selves and the genral populas. Alot has to do with the way kids have been raised. Kids from the baby boomer generation or kids 30 and younger are spoiled. They have never had to work Hard for anything. Parents from the world wars didnt want to raise there kids the way they were raised. They provided what they could when they could and brought up there kids the best they could. Now that being said the kids from the spoiled generation are bringing their kids up in an instant gratification culture! If we cant have it done and now then why bother!?!?! They dont know how to work hard for what they have, most everything has been handed to them when they screamed for it. I am 25 Just turned the quater century mark last sat. the 18th. I for one am Discusted with the way the US has become. There is no loyality in employees or employers. Case and Point Employees want to make all the money in the world and want it now! If they have to work to hard for the raise they quit when the going get tough because they may break a nail. On the flip side an Employer who feels that you dont do enough for the company will terminate you even if you are working 12-16 hours a day and dont take any breaks. this is because you dont bring enough $$$ in or produce enough product so they can Pad their pockets. The cost of living has become so outragious that no one has a disspossiable income any more. An that could be why their is a down turn in the hobby these days as well. Any way I am going to get off my box now. Every time this question comes up it irks me. So in closeing I have a question to pose for ALL OF YOU, Why do we always look at the negitive in life, What Happened to the Possitive? Lets stop complaining about the death and enjoy what we have. Curt
This comes up every couple of months. The Hobby maybe shrinking But I dont feel it is dying. There will always be hobbies no mater what the time or century is.
If you really want to know what is Killing the hobby and all hobbies for that mater look at your selves and the genral populas. Alot has to do with the way kids have been raised. Kids from the baby boomer generation or kids 30 and younger are spoiled. They have never had to work Hard for anything. Parents from the world wars didnt want to raise there kids the way they were raised. They provided what they could when they could and brought up there kids the best they could. Now that being said the kids from the spoiled generation are bringing their kids up in an instant gratification culture! If we cant have it done and now then why bother!?!?! They dont know how to work hard for what they have, most everything has been handed to them when they screamed for it.
I am 25 Just turned the quater century mark last sat. the 18th. I for one am Discusted with the way the US has become. There is no loyality in employees or employers. Case and Point Employees want to make all the money in the world and want it now! If they have to work to hard for the raise they quit when the going get tough because they may break a nail. On the flip side an Employer who feels that you dont do enough for the company will terminate you even if you are working 12-16 hours a day and dont take any breaks. this is because you dont bring enough $$$ in or produce enough product so they can Pad their pockets.
The cost of living has become so outragious that no one has a disspossiable income any more. An that could be why their is a down turn in the hobby these days as well. Any way I am going to get off my box now. Every time this question comes up it irks me.
So in closeing I have a question to pose for ALL OF YOU, Why do we always look at the negitive in life, What Happened to the Possitive? Lets stop complaining about the death and enjoy what we have.
Not that I am disagreeing with your premise and conclusions, Curt, but I wonder how many generations of later life adults have lamented that the generation of young adults that follows them is spoiled and doomed to learn many hard lessons. The obvious answer is... one more than the number of generations of young people who shake their heads at the apparent folly and blinkered conservatism of their elders.
However, it is strange, to me, to see someone as young as you take the position of we fuddy-duddies! Again, not that I disagree with you or anything...
Well I am a fuddie duddie, lol. I really dislike the screaming hoards of kids at the appartment complex that dont have any respect for anything. I will be the first to admit I was spoilled when I was a kid but not to the extent of some of the kids I knew in school. I have had summer jobs since I was 12 and a real job when I turned 16. I was in school full time and in marching band as well worked around 30 hours a week. Needless to say I was a very tired student. As well when I graduated HS I went to college M-F from about 6:45 am to noon. Then got out and worked 7 days a week 6-7 hours a day. I did that for 20 months at which point I went to work in catering and became a custom to working from 5am-5pm on a regular basis. Now keep in mind I was also driveing an hour to and from work home and school. So my 12 hour days were closer to 15 depending on trafic. I now work for a sign company and have a 8-5:30 shift doing sales M-F. Have I mentioned the last real vacation I have had was in 1998.
Also unlike most 25 year olds I dont drink smoke or party. If it gets past 11pm I am very cranky the next morning when I have to get up. Any way I feel very fortunite for what I have in life and get very cranky when my boss tells me that the only way I will be happy in life is when I bring home a 6 figure income. She came from corperate america making that dosent have kids and blows money like it is water. She bought this location at the begining of the year and is freaking out because she cant forcast her months and Our sales arnt where she want them to be. She keeps telling me to get my sales up because she will soon be makeing her 6 figure income soon, and I have to get to makeing at least 60,000 to start being happy in life.
Sorry to rant it is just very depressing to me that there is no loyality in this world any more, and it bogles the mind as to how materialistc people have become. It is amazing how the focus in life has turned from the family and floped to material wealth.
Off my soap box now,
On the other hand, I've known people growing up who tried their hand at model railroading but gave up because the train sets available then were junk and quit running. I had 3 friends with small layouts populated mostly by Tyco and old Bachmann (this is the early 1980's now). They were so unreliable they quit being fun. I was fortunate in that my father, being a long-time model railroader, made sure I bought higher-quality stuff (what little of quality was available then within the budget of my allowance, chore, and birthday money).
I wonder if the higher quality of stuff, which CNJ rightly attributes to progress, has had an effect of the number of dabblers who choose to stay in the hobby. Not sure how we could quantify that either. Few people these days have the patience for something that runs badly out of the box (I know, that's a seperate thread subject!), so the fact that much of the stuff (Atlas, P2K, Kato) available now runs so well, plus the integral-roadbed track (which I don't use, but I know is popular) would seem to make it more likely that someone trying out the hobby might be inclined to stay in it. Just a thought. I don't have any numbers to back that speculation up!
whitman500 wrote: A number of you have pointed out that the data on this question is conflicting. On the negative side: - Magazine subscriptions are in decline - Toy trains have disappeared from most major toy retailers - Local hobby shops are closing - The average age of a hobbyist is rising On the other hand, - The Internet is expanding both in terms of information sources and retailers - The range and quality of products has grown significantly - The ability to construct a realistic layout is at an all-time peak What this data suggests to me is a hobby that is going through a transition from a mass-market hobby where kids and amateurs were significant players to a speciality hobby where hardcore hobbyists, particularly retirees, are becoming the core of the market. This hypothesis is consistent with all of the facts mentioned above since what we are seeing in the hobby today is that mass market products and distribution channels are in decline while the part of the hobby that is booming is the high-end—the expensive, speciality products that appeal to the serious hobbyist.
A number of you have pointed out that the data on this question is conflicting. On the negative side:
- Magazine subscriptions are in decline
- Toy trains have disappeared from most major toy retailers
- Local hobby shops are closing
- The average age of a hobbyist is rising
On the other hand,
- The Internet is expanding both in terms of information sources and retailers
- The range and quality of products has grown significantly
- The ability to construct a realistic layout is at an all-time peak
What this data suggests to me is a hobby that is going through a transition from a mass-market hobby where kids and amateurs were significant players to a speciality hobby where hardcore hobbyists, particularly retirees, are becoming the core of the market. This hypothesis is consistent with all of the facts mentioned above since what we are seeing in the hobby today is that mass market products and distribution channels are in decline while the part of the hobby that is booming is the high-end—the expensive, speciality products that appeal to the serious hobbyist.
On the other hand, I will definitely agree with the statement that the manufacturers are moving toward a limited production, high-end, collector's mentality with their products. Such a situation is exactly what is to be expected in a field where general interest is declining and one must direct their efforts toward meeting the needs of the high end of the market to stay in the black. The concept of $400-$900, non-brass, HO is totally unique to the past half dozen years in the hobby's entire post-war history! Brass followed the eact same course over the years and that market is all but depleted today.
So, once again, if anyone can show documented indicators of hobby growth or even its stability, please offer it up.
When I left beautiful downtown Freedom, ME on a cross country road trip on Wednesday last, this was one of the top ten threads. It still is. Why? Is the topic that interesting? Especially when we all know:
1. The model railroad industry is pricing itself into oblivion by charging outrageous prices to MR hobbyists (we won't mention that the entire MR industry is smaller than Microsoft's petty cash fund) and prices are pretty much in line with what they were back when I was young adjusted for inflation (economic inflation, not my inflation - the Fed can't fight that. Not even Jenny Craig and Ipecac have been able to make headway on that one ).
2. Nobody builds anything anymore and everybody wants immediate gratification ('course we won't mention Joe Collias's diatribe in MR around 1959 or so that plastic "squeeze bottle" kits were killing the hobby because they didn't require any craftsmanship). Yeah, and my Ryobi power screwdriver/drill doesn't require me to risk carpal tunnel syndrome either.
3. Kids aren't interested in trains anymore. OTOH, both my granddaughters love Thomas and grandpa's 3 rail O gauge stuff, but that ain't model railroading, it's toy trains. Of course, one is 5 and the other's 2 and you have to start somewhere. My grandson is only 14 months old and has to ripen a bit before being exposed.
4. Mike Wolf is the Anti-Christ. I don't know what this has to do with anything, but that assertion seems to be on track to becoming the model railroad equivalent of Godwin's Law.
5. Sooner or later we're all going to die. Under normal circumstances, this would mean that the terrorists have won or at least that Mike Wolf is ahead on points.
Dave Vollmer wrote:Yep, I'm official. You apply through MR. It's not like it's a qualifying test or anything. Yes, my post was defensive, but wasn't meant to be holier-than-thou. Sorry you read it that way. I just don't understand (neither will I ever) the idea that it's bad to think positive about the hobby. There are so many nay-sayers.
Yes, my post was defensive, but wasn't meant to be holier-than-thou. Sorry you read it that way. I just don't understand (neither will I ever) the idea that it's bad to think positive about the hobby. There are so many nay-sayers.
I certainly didn't intend to imply that it's bad to think positive about the hobby. I think very positively about it (when I think about it in such terms - not often), but for all the great times I've had with my model railroading and the many, many fun hours of research I've spent learning about the prototype I follow, I just don't feel any sort of obligation to the hobby. It's simply the activity upon which I most enjoy spending my time. But that's just me.
I just read your later reply to my last post, Dave. In the post where I said "get a clue," I wasn't talking to folks like you who have adopted something of a mission to share the hobby - I was saying to those who claimed the hobby isn't dying because they knew of one or two cases of new blood joining in that the topic is really about the community of modelers as a whole dying out or not. I could have said it better, and probably I wasn't clear earlier - I apologize for that (probably still wasn't clear, was I?).
I agree that this is a hobby of individuals - That's part of what makes it so great! Model trains is the most individual thing I do. In other aspects of life I have to take into account the expectations of others (not a bad thing most of the time). In my world of model trains, I only have to take into account my own expectations, and those are as unique for each of us as our DNA.
But I think the community of model railroaders is really where this debate lies. But then, I've been wrong before. No surprise if I'm wrong now.
Thanks for the very kind words, by the way.
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
BRAKIE wrote:Dave,I would like to see the hard data..Again I don't think the hobby is dying a fast death..I DO BELIEVE it has a slow growth rate. As far as video games hundreds of thousands stood in line for a CHANCE to get a Playstation 3 according to the news and most of those walked away empty handed because their wasn't enough produce because of production problems.
Dave,I would like to see the hard data..Again I don't think the hobby is dying a fast death..I DO BELIEVE it has a slow growth rate.
As far as video games hundreds of thousands stood in line for a CHANCE to get a Playstation 3 according to the news and most of those walked away empty handed because their wasn't enough produce because of production problems.
again and again, hobby shops are closing.
In the last 15 years there have been 11 new train/hobby shops opened in Arkansas and 2 have closed. One shop closed because he was 76 years old and thought it might be time to retire.
Yep, the hobby is dying. There's the proof. There's the numbers. The hobby is doomed.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
The challenge that is facing the hobby is that this situation presents the manufacturers with a very difficult business decision. The optimum near-term strategy (and near-term could be the next 10-15 years) is to cater to the serious hobbyists and continue to invest resources into expensive products and targeted marketing while deemphasizing the mass market where competition from other products (e.g., video games) is intense and the short-term return on investment is poor. The problem is that this strategy may not be sustainable over the long-term. If most serious hobbyists began as amateurs and the manufacturers ignore the kids / mass market, then a crisis could ensue sometime down the road as the Baby Boom generation passes away. Where will the new serious hobbyists come from if no one is devoting resources to the mass market?
Am I certain that I am drawing the right conclusions? No, but there are enough warning signs to be concerned. I'm only 30 and I worry about where this hobby might be in 15 years if my hypothesis proves to be correct.
Brunton wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote:I guess you mean me among others... I didn't appoint myself WHG ambassador. That's a program run by the hobby industry through MR. You can't (and I don't) push the hobby, but you can get it out there where people will start talking about it. My argument is that it's a lot more effective to try to do something about it than to sit and complain. But then, it's a lot easier just to complain, isn't it? Maybe it's my military training, but I'm not the sidelines type. As for the industry, it seems that for every manufacturer that folds, there's another one coming out. Granted, they're small in scope and limited in specialty, but there's a lot of little mom-and-pop basement manufacturers popping up all the time. I would not expect to find that in a shrinking hobby. Here's me doing my part:Wow! Your post reads as both defensive AND somewhat holier-than-thou, Dave (maybe it wasn't meant that way, but it reads that way). I didn't intend to engender either of those reactions. Let's stop and take a deep breath. No need to be defensive - I wasn't talking about anyone specifically. Since you bring it up, however, are you an "official" WGH Ambassador? If ther is such a thing (and if you are one of them), what did you have to do to earn that distinction? I guess you missed my point, Dave. I don't think anything needs to be done about "it." A contracting model railroad hobby isn't some great social calamity that needs to be rectified. I'm not sitting on the sidelines - since you're apparently always on the "field," so to speak, maybe you don't know that there aren't any sidelines. There's just how each individual chooses to pursue their hobby. If your way is to expose as many people as possible to it, that's good for you. Just please don't insinuate that I'm some kind of slacker because I don't choose to do that. OK? If you'll be kind enough, point out to me where I'm complaining. Seems to me I was just sharing my perspective on the whole "hobby is dying" thing, and my basic attitude towards the hobby. No complaining in the whole post, even about folks who seem to think anyone who ever set up a table for their trains should get out and shove model railroading down the throats of the "unenlightened" (okay, a bit over-dramatic, but it makes my point. And don't take offense - that's NOT my intent). You said "You can't (and I don't) push the hobby..." to me, then to Brakie you said "And I know that the WGH push is by the manufacturers and publishers." Seems to me that, if you are an officially approved and annoited "WGH Ambassador," then you're part of the push. And that's okay too. But don't look down on me for not getting out there and pushing along with you, okay?
Dave Vollmer wrote:I guess you mean me among others... I didn't appoint myself WHG ambassador. That's a program run by the hobby industry through MR. You can't (and I don't) push the hobby, but you can get it out there where people will start talking about it. My argument is that it's a lot more effective to try to do something about it than to sit and complain. But then, it's a lot easier just to complain, isn't it? Maybe it's my military training, but I'm not the sidelines type. As for the industry, it seems that for every manufacturer that folds, there's another one coming out. Granted, they're small in scope and limited in specialty, but there's a lot of little mom-and-pop basement manufacturers popping up all the time. I would not expect to find that in a shrinking hobby. Here's me doing my part:
My argument is that it's a lot more effective to try to do something about it than to sit and complain. But then, it's a lot easier just to complain, isn't it? Maybe it's my military training, but I'm not the sidelines type.
As for the industry, it seems that for every manufacturer that folds, there's another one coming out. Granted, they're small in scope and limited in specialty, but there's a lot of little mom-and-pop basement manufacturers popping up all the time. I would not expect to find that in a shrinking hobby.
Here's me doing my part:
I guess you missed my point, Dave. I don't think anything needs to be done about "it." A contracting model railroad hobby isn't some great social calamity that needs to be rectified. I'm not sitting on the sidelines - since you're apparently always on the "field," so to speak, maybe you don't know that there aren't any sidelines. There's just how each individual chooses to pursue their hobby. If your way is to expose as many people as possible to it, that's good for you. Just please don't insinuate that I'm some kind of slacker because I don't choose to do that. OK?
If you'll be kind enough, point out to me where I'm complaining. Seems to me I was just sharing my perspective on the whole "hobby is dying" thing, and my basic attitude towards the hobby. No complaining in the whole post, even about folks who seem to think anyone who ever set up a table for their trains should get out and shove model railroading down the throats of the "unenlightened" (okay, a bit over-dramatic, but it makes my point. And don't take offense - that's NOT my intent).
You said "You can't (and I don't) push the hobby..." to me, then to Brakie you said "And I know that the WGH push is by the manufacturers and publishers." Seems to me that, if you are an officially approved and annoited "WGH Ambassador," then you're part of the push. And that's okay too. But don't look down on me for not getting out there and pushing along with you, okay?
Mark,
I'm going to share this publicly because I think it's important. First off, I want to say that I have great respect for you and feel as if you're a very positive force in these forums. I usually look forward to reading your postings and seeing pictures of your work. I was caught off guard when you admonished those who believe as I do to "get a clue." Hopefully you can understand why I got defensive.
It was wrong for me to suggest you (and others) aren't doing enough to promote the hobby. I'm sorry about that. I'm a big enough man to know that that was an unfair characterization.
I do, however, still respectfully disagree with the point in your posting that this is not about individuals, but the hobby as a whole. My view is that this hobby is made up of individuals. We don't speak with one voice. The NMRA (I was once a member) does an admirable job of trying, but in the end individual action is still necessary. Some battles have been won or lost based on the actions of individual soldiers. As long as real trains assume lesser and lesser importance in American life, the prototype won't be inspiration enough to keep the hobby population from dropping below the critical threshold at which it remains profitable for the manufacturers. We need to help it along.
This debate will no doubt rage on for years and years, and we are all rightfully passionate about our viewpoints. I hope we (myself included) can keep the debate cordial. I think it would be great for MR to do some no-kidding no-spin reporting on the subject, but I can't see them wanting to risk circulation and manufacturer support if the news turns out grim.
My here:
The ebb and flow of the hobby becoming more popular or not being as popular can be affected by many things and on many levels. I can only give you my personal experience here, no fancy statistical studies or numbers, but just what I have seen in my 30 + years of being in the model railroading hobby. One example of growth: I purchased the 1973 Walther’s Catalog way back in 1973 when it was brand the spanking new edition; it was about a ½ thick. I looked in that catalog every chance I got and dreamed all day long of having a HO scale layout. I had just gotten into the hobby at 12 years old, but was always influenced by my grandfather, who at the time had just dismantled and given away his HO scale Rock Island railroad layout to a Boy Scout troop in Pineville, LA. He modeled HO for about a dozen years or more in the late 50’s and through the 60’s. I remember him taking me to various and sundry layouts all over Pineville and Alex, LA and HO and O gauge seemed to prevail as the most modeled. He seemed to know everyone within a 50 mile radius that had an operating layout. These guys were “old timers” and usually had worked for a railroad or still did. I remember going to this one O gauge layout and I was given the privilege of being able to walk over the top of the layout on preset foot prints and go to the back of an area with a huge modeled logging camp. Another one of the layouts was set under a local arena and was locked within a glassed in room for public display, we got to sit and operate this one too. I wish he was alive today, I would like to ask him some more questions about all the model railroaders from the 1970’s who lived in that area. I just got my Walthers 2007 HO gauge catalog; it must be at least 2 inches thick.
Conclusion, it pays to know a few people in the area you live who model railroads. And Walther’s HO scale catalog has grown at least 1 ½ inches in thickness in the past 34 years, that might account for some growth in the hobby, eh!
As far as I am concerned the hobby is at just the right size at any given time in the past, now, and in the future. It is always moving and in flux, just like anything.
Cheers,
Ryan
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
One Track Mind wrote:I think the main deal in not providing numbers is that most of the companies would not want that data available for their competitors to see. Certainly I would have a hard time posting some of my numbers that apply to my shop. It would not be in my best interest to post figures whether they are good or bad.
Certainly I would have a hard time posting some of my numbers that apply to my shop. It would not be in my best interest to post figures whether they are good or bad.
You are correct. All the MRR manufactures and most hobby shops are private companies that do not have any obligation to publicly disclose their financial information - And like any private company they (wisely) won’t.
To me, the only way to end this debate is to obtain sales volume data as well as the (audited) financial balance sheets of each MRR company going back a few years. Sales volumes alone won’t settle the issue because there can be factors outside of a shrinking marketplace that would explain any declines. Of course there is realistically zero chance of getting this information.
So at present the debate continues to rage over incomplete data which can be spun to make a compelling case either way. I used to take sides on this debate, but now know better. Besides, it’s just a hobby. If it goes under, as sad as it will be I’ll simply find something else.
Dave,I think a lot of us old timers has seen the slow growth of the hobby over the past few years and the reasons are many.However,a lot of us old gray and white beards can recall going to the depot to watch trains,being invited for a "tour" of a local interlocking tower,some recall spending 2-3 hours talking to a switch tender or crossing guard...Then there was the Lionel setups in department store windows.Then model railroad clubs was a FRIENDLY place to go visit regardless of your age and some clubs would have a special open house for Boy Scouts and other such groups..Both the NMRA and train clubs was very active around Christmas and would have open houses,modeling clinics etc..Now today its hard to interact with railroaders and some clubs operate like a secrete society and treat the public with disdain and distrust especially youth.I think we can agree that type of treatment is not helping the hobby growth at all.
I have been to train shows and would be looking at the layouts on display and would ask a question and I would receive a mumbled reply or the guy would just turn and walk away..
Yeah,the reasons are many why we see a slow growth in the hobby.Sadly I don't think the WGH band aid will help because of the targeted audiences.Speaking of that..I haven't even heard of a WGH meeting in a 6 county area.Why? I am sure there are at least one ambassador in this 4 county area or even 6 county area after all there are several small cities and towns in the surrounding area with populations in the thousands..
Of course it may not be needed in this area because we have 8 different types of train clubs.Of course 2 of these clubs are active in the public eye.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"