Family and I went to a train show in Ft. Worth today, brother and his family went with us also. My brother bought a transformer for one of our two lionel train sets and I bought one for myself. He is thinking of putting a lionel train that runs on a small shelf throughout the house and his wife is all for it. She had a train as a little girl during Christmas and my brother has renewed his interest in the hobby.
I bought my little boy the Lionel Thomas train set it was a steal! It was actually cheaper than the other wooden thomas stuff around the show. He is so happy and excited and is doing really well putting the trains on the track and running them.
So for all of you doubters out there who say the hobby is dying go to a train show and see all the kids buying thomas and moving up to the other stuff.
UNIONPACIFIC4018 wrote:So for all of you doubters out there who say the hobby is dying go to a train show and see all the kids buying thomas and moving up to the other stuff.
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
gg1-joe had a thread during the week about opening up a Lionel shop of his own. It came up that Lionel will be marketing through Target stores this season. While this may hurt some LHS sales, I'm hoping that it will draw more kids in and eventually be very good for the hobby. After all, those kids aren't going to want another train set for the holidays next year, but many may want a locomotive or one of Lionel's many operating accessories. That's where the LHS can make some new customers.
As I said in the other thread, I'm also hoping that parents are starting to look for ways to get the kids away from the TV, computer and game console. Model Railroading and other "real" hobbies might be an attractive alternative for kids who have burned out on Nintendo while still in grade school. As a recovered Flight Simaholic, I'm much happier to be addicted to trains instead.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasley wrote:gg1-joe had a thread during the week about opening up a Lionel shop of his own. It came up that Lionel will be marketing through Target stores this season. While this may hurt some LHS sales, I'm hoping that it will draw more kids in and eventually be very good for the hobby. After all, those kids aren't going to want another train set for the holidays next year, but many may want a locomotive or one of Lionel's many operating accessories. That's where the LHS can make some new customers. As I said in the other thread, I'm also hoping that parents are starting to look for ways to get the kids away from the TV, computer and game console. Model Railroading and other "real" hobbies might be an attractive alternative for kids who have burned out on Nintendo while still in grade school. As a recovered Flight Simaholic, I'm much happier to be addicted to trains instead.
Before beating the drums I suggest taking a closer look at the hobby in general..As far as Thomas "Shining Time Station" was canceled due to lack of interest on our PBS station.Of course reruns and a 6:30am air time may have helped kill the show.
As far as elbow room in hobby shops how was it during the year on Saturdays? Remember we are entering cold weather and ALL hobbies see a upswing in activity..Of course the influx of customers one has to divide the buyers from the lookers as well including the "first timers" that are "Thinking about a hobby"..
Also how many was looking for non train items such as model paint,glue etc?
Sorry,but,my past part time jobs in hobby shops tells me there is a influx of customers during the cold months and around Christmas.Just because a customer buys a train set is no assurance they are budding modelers or the set will be used much beyond Christmas.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
grayfox1119 wrote:BTW, I take it you will be at the Great Train Show next weekend? Lisa is going to be ther with her family, I will be there on Saturday morning unless we get a foot of snow ( hardly likely).
That show (at the Shriners' Center in Wilmington, MA, for the uninitiated) is one of my favorites. Not sure which day I'll go yet - I usually have to negotiate the time frame. I try to go around lunchtime and buy one of their sausage subs - good quality, good price and the Shriners put the money to a good cause. At times it's elbow-to-elbow in there, and most people seem to be leaving with at least something in a plastic bag. If nothing else, they're at least leaving with smiles on their faces.
Anyone else going?
I agree! We have more models and accessories available than ever before in the history of Model Railroading. The new product lines in the last five years have been amazing. Sound and DCC has attracted many to the hobby and will continue to do so.
The only down side I can think of is how do I purchase all of the new models.
How can this be bad??
Eriediamond wrote:Now, on the other hand, I believe what does hurt this hobby or keeps some from pursueing it is the HO and N scale sets sold through chain stores Such as Toys R Us and others. ( I'm not bashing toy stores) These sets are, for the most part, puchased by the parents, aunts and uncles, with good intentions, for gifts under the tree for youngsters. Anyone care to take a guess as to how many kids end up with broken trains the day after??
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
TA462 wrote: jeffrey-wimberly wrote:Get the kids away from video games and watch the hobby market boom. I wonder if the technology that is available now was available back when I was a kid if I would have become a hermit like todays kids and not leave the house. We had a Colecovision when I was a kid but the graphics weren't great. It was OK for rainy days.
jeffrey-wimberly wrote:Get the kids away from video games and watch the hobby market boom.
I wonder if the technology that is available now was available back when I was a kid if I would have become a hermit like todays kids and not leave the house. We had a Colecovision when I was a kid but the graphics weren't great. It was OK for rainy days.
TA462 wrote: jeffrey-wimberly wrote:Get the kids away from video games and watch the hobby market boom. Thats going to be hard Jeffrey but your right, the hobby market would boom for sure. I remember as a kid wanting either trains or model car and truck kits for Christmas and birthdays. Today kids want the newest video game out. The thing is its hard to match the satisfaction kids get from video games. I have a Playstation 2 and a bunch of car and sports games. You can't beat playing Gran Tourismo 4 or Nascar 2006 for heart pounding entertainment. Doing 200 MPH at Talledega with a bunch of cars around you or driving a Dodge Viper sideways in the corners in GT4 is hard to beat. I wonder if the technology that is available now was available back when I was a kid if I would have become a hermit like todays kids and not leave the house. We had a Colecovision when I was a kid but the graphics weren't great. It was OK for rainy days.
Thats going to be hard Jeffrey but your right, the hobby market would boom for sure. I remember as a kid wanting either trains or model car and truck kits for Christmas and birthdays. Today kids want the newest video game out. The thing is its hard to match the satisfaction kids get from video games. I have a Playstation 2 and a bunch of car and sports games. You can't beat playing Gran Tourismo 4 or Nascar 2006 for heart pounding entertainment. Doing 200 MPH at Talledega with a bunch of cars around you or driving a Dodge Viper sideways in the corners in GT4 is hard to beat. I wonder if the technology that is available now was available back when I was a kid if I would have become a hermit like todays kids and not leave the house. We had a Colecovision when I was a kid but the graphics weren't great. It was OK for rainy days.
Dave,I fully agree..I don't know of any railroading that would come close to NASCAR racing at full speed with guys like Gordon,J.Johnson,Stewart,the Busch brothers Kasey Kahne and the other top drivers nipping at your heels streaking for the finish line or the heart breaking wreck that totals your car.Yeah,how to get kids and adults away from that action? Todays video games have so much to offer even TrainSim and Trainz is hard to beat.
DCC,Sound perfect models,super nice layouts RTR cars and engines,prebuilt structures are still hard press to draw in new modelers...You gotta have that interest in trains and if you don't have that then this hobby won't interest you.
Sorry guys but,in todays world our hobby doesn't have much to offer in the way of action.
MisterBeasley wrote: grayfox1119 wrote:BTW, I take it you will be at the Great Train Show next weekend? Lisa is going to be ther with her family, I will be there on Saturday morning unless we get a foot of snow ( hardly likely). That show (at the Shriners' Center in Wilmington, MA, for the uninitiated) is one of my favorites. Not sure which day I'll go yet - I usually have to negotiate the time frame. I try to go around lunchtime and buy one of their sausage subs - good quality, good price and the Shriners put the money to a good cause. At times it's elbow-to-elbow in there, and most people seem to be leaving with at least something in a plastic bag. If nothing else, they're at least leaving with smiles on their faces. Anyone else going?
MisterBeasley,I am a Shriner thank you for your kind words.
Dave W.
Omaha,Nebr.
TA462 wrote:Brakie, maybe a few high speed train collisions might get the kids interested. Just don't use any of my stuff, lol.
BRAKIE wrote: Before beating the drums I suggest taking a closer look at the hobby in general..As far as Thomas "Shining Time Station" was canceled due to lack of interest on our PBS station.Of course reruns and a 6:30am air time may have helped kill the show. As far as elbow room in hobby shops how was it during the year on Saturdays? Remember we are entering cold weather and ALL hobbies see a upswing in activity..Of course the influx of customers one has to divide the buyers from the lookers as well including the "first timers" that are "Thinking about a hobby".. Also how many was looking for non train items such as model paint,glue etc? Sorry,but,my past part time jobs in hobby shops tells me there is a influx of customers during the cold months and around Christmas.Just because a customer buys a train set is no assurance they are budding modelers or the set will be used much beyond Christmas.
Brakie is both very observant and correct here. To which I'll add that you can not judge the state of the hobby by visiting one successful train show or just your local hobby shop. The situation varies widely from area to area. Yesterday I attended a long established show (35 years), the largest in the region, and found it very meager relative to what was put on by the same group at the same location a decade ago - 1/2 the number of dealers and 1/2 the attendance. Likewise, visiting my LHS last week, the manager bemoaned the fact that October had been the quietest he ever saw and even now, in mid November, the customer count is way below normal. So you can't reliably judge the overall situation from a very limited sampling.
I will, however, once again point out, as some others here already have, that there are numerous indicators that do not point toward a thriving current situation in the hobby. Hobbies across the board are down in participation and the average age of those in the hobbies is rapidly increasing, signifying a lack of interest in such pursuits by those under the age of 40. This is a result of societal changes that Thomas, nor Lionel, not anything else is going to alter.
CNJ831
Of course there is going to be more interest in indoor hobbies during the cold months. I have been in this hobby for over 30 years and I do most of my work October to March. My LHS doesn't see me in the other 6 months. The fact that it is a seasonal upswing doesn't indicate there is an underlying weakness in the hobby. Many businesses are seasonal in nature and make most of their profit during a small window. As long as they do well in those few months, they can stay in business.
I'm sure many of the first time buyers are not going to stay with it but others will. As long as there are new modelers coming into the hobby, it will stay strong and there is every indication that is the case.
I don't think the hobby is in trouble so much as the retailers are in trouble. And that's certainly not particular to MRR.
Example: My wife does scrapbooking, which is about as hot and current a hobby as you can get. And yet every craft/scrapbook retailer near us has gone under over the past few years. Why? Because of the mail-order and internet retailers who advertise in the glossy hobby magazines... sound familiar? Not to mention that E-Bay continues to be a force in driving costs down at all sales channels. If you can go buy one of her trimmer-things at the local craft store for $20 + 6-8% sales tax, or at the mail order place for $15 + $4 shipping and no tax, or at the Internet retailer for $13 + $3 shipping and no tax, or on E-Bay for $7.50 and $5 shipping and no tax, where ya' gonna go? I'll wager it's probably one of the latter three depending on your particular sensitivities and preferences.
If the hobby itself is dying, why do we have more breadth of product than ever, with more innovation, more technology and variety? Would all the manufacturers continue to invest in tooling, marketing and such if they weren't moving product to justify it? Heck no! And (at risk of starting a holy war) IMO it's all at better quality and prices (corrected for inflation please!) than at any time in my 30 years of hobbying-memory.
To me the best indicator of the health of the hobby is the number of times a desired item must be back ordered. It is a rare occurence when I do most of my non-railroading online shopping but happens frequently when I try to order model railroading items. I have had this happen with locos as well as structures. It happens when I try to order from an e-tailer, a phone in retailer like Trainworld, and even when I try to order direct from Walthers. Supply it seems can't keep up with demand. If the business wasn't healthy, we would be seeing inventories building up. We are seeing just the opposite. Model railroading is alive and well.
jecorbett wrote: To me the best indicator of the health of the hobby is the number of times a desired item must be back ordered. It is a rare occurence when I do most of my non-railroading online shopping but happens frequently when I try to order model railroading items. I have had this happen with locos as well as structures. It happens when I try to order from an e-tailer, a phone in retailer like Trainworld, and even when I try to order direct from Walthers. Supply it seems can't keep up with demand. If the business wasn't healthy, we would be seeing inventories building up. We are seeing just the opposite. Model railroading is alive and well.
I'm afraid all this speaks to is how limited the runs of given items are today...not to any excessive demand. The typical runs of most items are in the few thousands today, at best, as compared to the tens of thousand in the days of yore. Selection is wider only because production is far more limited. Likewise, you are also seeing the advent of hords of wouldbe/fly-by-night eBay "stores" buying up a dozen or two of a paticular item at a time for re-sale...items that formerly would have been available for purchase through regular channels.
IRONROOSTER wrote:The future of the hobby may will be in bringing in new modelers in their 50's and 60's who have the time, space, and money. Their children are launched, careers are winding down or they're already retired. That's the group from which to recruit new members.In my case, even though I have been in the hobby for 35 years, I had a long period of relative dormancy while the kids were growing up. Once I hit my 50's, my hobby activity picked up along with available funds and space.EnjoyPaul
Paul, I not only agree, but don't even think that's the "future" so much as the past, present AND future.
Heck, go out and get a copy of Model Railroader from the decade of your choice - preferably a couple different decades. Read it, and examine the age of the owner/builder of the feature layouts. Read the letters and look for clues as to the age of the correspondents, things like "after my kids moved out" or "when I worked in ____"... I think this hobby has long been the domain of empty-nesters, retirees or at least folks far enough along in life to have some good disposable income. I guarantee that you won't find any issue of Model Railroader from any decade suggesting that the hobby is driven by the youth. There's the occasional dedicated teenager or 20-something around, sure, and we applaud them highly. Rick of Rix products built an impressive layout by the time he was 30-ish, but that's the exception.
Did the magazine used to have a column called "student fare" that they dropped? Absolutely, it fits right in with the pattern of 'returning to the hobby later on in life' that I've seen in my own family and circle of friends for multiple generations. The pattern of how young people "get into" the hobby there also looks a lot to me like "back to the future"... I had a Tyco box-set as a kid on a 4x8 sheet with green sawdust paper. I left off messing with it about the time I noticed girls, and totally dumped it once I could drive. I didn't reapproach the hobby until my 30's...
My father had Lionels as a kid, dropped them in high school, and came back to the hobby only when I started into my childhood trains. My uncle inherited Dad's trains, and followed the same path, but never got back into it.
Every single model railroader I know has similar sequence of events. They might be in their 30's-70's (and I'm sure beyond, but that's just my group), but they all had trains as kids, dropped them about the time their hormones kicked in, and returned to it after establishing homes, careers and families. And you know what... My kids have a 'toy' train set, my neighbors kids have toy train sets. I can't think of any family I know with kids who doesn't at minimum have an O- or G-scale setup they break out at Christmas.
And sure "kids these days just want video games."... Frankly, my kids just want computers and the Internet, and considering how critical use of those is to success in today's world, I'm all about that... (Plus when they're a little older, they'll be able to get into JMRI source code and make it do everything I want!). Guess what? They still LOVE trains.
So what? It's just history repeating itself... When I was a kid it was "kids these days just want that fancy new Pong game." When my father was young, he remembers my grandfather railing that TV and BB Guns were destroying the youth... At some point, my great grandfather probably predicted the demise of mankind due to 78 RPM records... I take the whole "kids these days..." line with a HUGE grain of salt. Hell, cavemen probably complained that kids these days were spoiled and ruined by their new flint-chip-embedded clubs instead of using a good old fashioned log to club food to death...
I look forward to repeating this soapbox rant 30 or 40 years from now too.
kchronister! That is excellent! Nearly exactly what I was planning to post!
And I might add, for those that are worried, some train shops are NOT dying. Some trends are reversing. I don't have time to go into all of it tonight, but there are some promising, positive things going on and some speculative ideas that point toward hobby shops surviving and on-line shopping, and most definately eBay shopping, on the decrease. You read it here first.
Yep, no matter how many times it gets posted, I will be waiting to answer that model railroading is not dying, and neither are hobby shops. The opinions expressed on this forum are slightly skewed, remember.
We're always wondering what the kids are doing and most of us know that computers, the internet (myspace.com for one) and video games seem to have a lock on a good proportion of them. Then tonight on tv there's a short segment on the new Playstation 3 console coming out. Why... it's only $600 and God knows what each game for it sells for.. and the line of people waiting to buy one went out the door, down the street and around the block and some had been in the line for over a week. A WEEK!... sleeping in tents on the sidewalk.
I'm not sure I'd camp out in front of Walther's for a day waiting for the newest Proto 2000 to go on sale. Well, it would depend on just how realistic the sound was, level of detail, how smooth she ran... yada yada yada..
Jarrell