CurtMc wrote:What does Thomas mean about the model train hobby .............nothing!
Hmmm all these kids who like Thomas get exposed to the other end of model railroading... I know there is usually a pile of kids near the garden railroad set up and they had MU's of diesels pulling large freight and a big boy. neither of which are Thomas the tank engine. I know my son likes his Thomas the tank engine but he also likes my ho scale layout that doesn't have any Thomas stuff on it... he wanted to see all the other layouts at the show. He also enjoys going on railfan trips and watching my train videos. But hey if you want to start your kids out with 400.00 locos and 20 car drags at the age of 4 and 5 go ahead
Apprencticeship.
I spent hours as a young boy at my father's side watching him scratchbuild Reading and Maryland & Pennsylvania stations in true craftsman style. I was content to spend my entire evening in near silence absorbing it all.
My young sons are the same way with me. They're 4 and 2, but seem to rather watch me wire a singal or clean the track than watch TV (in fact, the sound of the Digitrax chirp when I fire up the Empire Builder is the only thing that seems to peel them away from Curious George or Dora the Explorer). I know I may pay the price at some point when one of them chooses to tinker with something when I'm not around (ask my dad about what of his stuff I messed up), but I'm confident that model railroading will continue with the thrid generation.
Maybe I'm just restating my last post in this thread, but I think as long as we actively recruit (and are supportive of existing model railroaders, not exclusionary and elitist), we should be in good shape for the forseeable future.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
There were 90,000 watching the USC Cal game yesterday, so model railroading is in great shape
Same logic as saying Thomas means the same thing.
Super Chief Rules wrote: I think it is unfair to say that most teenage males stop their hobby in pursuit of girls/cars/whatever, because it is possible to do all three!! ...
There's a joke in there someplace....
UNIONPACIFIC4018 wrote: CurtMc wrote:What does Thomas mean about the model train hobby .............nothing! Hmmm all these kids who like Thomas get exposed to the other end of model railroading... I know there is usually a pile of kids near the garden railroad set up and they had MU's of diesels pulling large freight and a big boy. neither of which are Thomas the tank engine. I know my son likes his Thomas the tank engine but he also likes my ho scale layout that doesn't have any Thomas stuff on it... he wanted to see all the other layouts at the show. He also enjoys going on railfan trips and watching my train videos. But hey if you want to start your kids out with 400.00 locos and 20 car drags at the age of 4 and 5 go ahead
While it in some ways pains me to acknowledge it, I'm afraid CurtMc is quite correct in his statement. It is highly unlikely that there will be any tie-in between the Thomas shows and future model railroad hobbyists. The illusion here is that anything, no matter how vaguely associated with trains, somehow leads to a future in our hobby.
What is lacking among proponents of Thomas as a hobby stimulus is an understanding of what drew kids to real trains and toy trains (i.e. Lionel/Flyer) in the days of yore and why these folks came to be the major part of the hobby as adults. As kids, in most cases the appeal of real and model trains was a fascination of having control over and the operation of huge and powerful machines, especially decades ago when trains were highly visible in everyday life. There was a time when boys dreamed, even if briefly, of being engineers...not rock stars or NASCAR drivers. Powerless children in control of an imaginary world of huge, powerful machines! It was the very premise of much of Lionel's advertising.
As adults, the association with toy/model trains brings back fond memories of carefree youth; of joyous Christmastimes; days of dreaming over holiday "wishbooks" and the fantasy of having the best Lionel layout even built ...and now, as an adult, being able to afford it, to actually have it, or a more refined and acceptible HO or N scale version (Freud would probably have a ball with this subject!).
In live action cartoons like Thomas, it is not the humans that are ultimately in control of the action, it is the machines that have taken on a life and personality of there own. The humans are simply along for the ride, taking little or no controlling part in the adventure. These stories, while admittedly highly entertaining to kids, are in no way representative of any reality or even a fantasy that might draw one back as an adult to model such a world. If considered logically, Thomas fans should be no more likely to someday become model railroaders than kids who watch Jimmy the Jet Plane on TV are likely to become aviation hobbyists. It is only the skewed view of those of us inside the hobby that tend to see all manner of fictional relationships or influences in Thomas that could create future adult interest in model trains.
Without question, a far more fruitful avenue for extending the future of the hobby is to expose kids (your own and others) to real trains (railfanning) and model trains (home layouts/train shows/holiday displays) to create fond memories they might wish to relive in some fashion later in life. But even in these situations, don't expect more than a few percent of them to return to model railroading as adults. Not every kid that played with a Lionel train on Christmas morning is a model railroader today!
CNJ831
YES. You said it correctly. It is a false business assumption to think that because thomas is popular model railroading is doing well but you hear it over and over again
Excellent writing below
CNJ831 wrote: UNIONPACIFIC4018 wrote: CurtMc wrote:What does Thomas mean about the model train hobby .............nothing! Hmmm all these kids who like Thomas get exposed to the other end of model railroading... I know there is usually a pile of kids near the garden railroad set up and they had MU's of diesels pulling large freight and a big boy. neither of which are Thomas the tank engine. I know my son likes his Thomas the tank engine but he also likes my ho scale layout that doesn't have any Thomas stuff on it... he wanted to see all the other layouts at the show. He also enjoys going on railfan trips and watching my train videos. But hey if you want to start your kids out with 400.00 locos and 20 car drags at the age of 4 and 5 go ahead While it in some ways pains me to acknowledge it, I'm afraid CurtMc is quite correct in his statement. It is highly unlikely that there will be any tie-in between the Thomas shows and future model railroad hobbyists. The illusion here is that anything, no matter how vaguely associated with trains, somehow leads to a future in our hobby. What is lacking among proponents of Thomas as a hobby stimulus is an understanding of what drew kids to real trains and toy trains (i.e. Lionel/Flyer) in the days of yore and why these folks came to be the major part of the hobby as adults. As kids, in most cases the appeal of real and model trains was a fascination of having control over and the operation of huge and powerful machines, especially decades ago when trains were highly visible in everyday life. There was a time when boys dreamed, even if briefly, of being engineers...not rock stars or NASCAR drivers. Powerless children in control of an imaginary world of huge, powerful machines! It was the very premise of much of Lionel's advertising. As adults, the association with toy/model trains brings back fond memories of carefree youth; of joyous Christmastimes; days of dreaming over holiday "wishbooks" and the fantasy of having the best Lionel layout even built ...and now, as an adult, being able to afford it, to actually have it, or a more refined and acceptible HO or N scale version (Freud would probably have a ball with this subject!). In live action cartoons like Thomas, it is not the humans that are ultimately in control of the action, it is the machines that have taken on a life and personality of there own. The humans are simply along for the ride, taking little or no controlling part in the adventure. These stories, while admittedly highly entertaining to kids, are in no way representative of any reality or even a fantasy that might draw one back as an adult to model such a world. If considered logically, Thomas fans should be no more likely to someday become model railroaders than kids who watch Jimmy the Jet Plane on TV are likely to become aviation hobbyists. It is only the skewed view of those of us inside the hobby that tend to see all manner of fictional relationships or influences in Thomas that could create future adult interest in model trains. Without question, a far more fruitful avenue for extending the future of the hobby is to expose kids (your own and others) to real trains (railfanning) and model trains (home layouts/train shows/holiday displays) to create fond memories they might wish to relive in some fashion later in life. But even in these situations, don't expect more than a few percent of them to return to model railroading as adults. Not every kid that played with a Lionel train on Christmas morning is a model railroader today! CNJ831
Uhh that's Jay Jay the Jet plane ha ha
You know it really doesn't matter because for all of you who say it is dying have an unconcious desire for it to die, you have already accepted the fact and paid for the burial plot and stone.
My son is 5 and knows his trains and I teach him everyhting I can just like my grandpa taught me and I will continue this in hopes he will one day build his dream layout. If he doesnt oh well but who knows maybe by then it will be another dead hobby due to the nay sayers here who seem to desire for it to be dead
For all those who claim the hobby is dying, you are entitled to your opinions and you make some valid points. What none of you have done, however, is offer any sort of solution to mitigate the problem. The world doesn't need people simply to point out its problems; it needs people to point out solutions. This hobby is the same way.
To those then who say the hobby is dying, I say, "Well, what are you going to do about it?"
I'm a WGH Ambassador, as are many of you. I've been taking layouts to shows for 4 years and exposing my workmates and my children to model railroad magazines and my layout websites. I've been trying to bring people in. What are you all going to do? Are you the spectator that stands by the side of the road staring at a car wreck or do you roll up your sleeves and start helping? There are those among you who are not willing to accept the death of this hobby we love. I don't even think it's dying, but that's irrelevant; I'm just trying to help it grow.
Now, with that said, let's go run some trains!
selector wrote: Super Chief Rules wrote: I think it is unfair to say that most teenage males stop their hobby in pursuit of girls/cars/whatever, because it is possible to do all three!! ... There's a joke in there someplace....
To all you folks who are saying "my kids like trains so the hobby isn't dying," or "I'm a teenager and I like trains so the hobby isn't dying" or "I know several kids who like model railroading, so the hobby isn't dying" or something similar - get a clue! This topic isn't about one or two people, but about the community of model railroaders as a whole! What once was a group of well over a quarter million people (depending on whose data you believe) is now, by many accounts, significantly smaller. If it continues to shrink, at some point it will become impossible for manufacturers to make a living. A few hundred model railroaders won't make a viable consumer base. You'll scratchbuild everything. That's what people mean when they talk about the hobby dying.
The debate is really over whether the hobby is dying, or simply contracting. The answer to that won't be known for years, yet. Stay tuned and watch.
For me, I don't really care. It's MY hobby, and always will be. What I can't buy (and sometimes what I can buy) I'll build for myself. If there is no one else in the country model railroading, I still will. There's only one reason someone is a life-long model railroader - it's in their blood (whatever that really means). Except for my marriage, model trains are the most important part of my personal life, and they generally have been since I was about 14. Why? Well, nostalgia, the satisfaction of making small machines work well, creating a world the way I want it to be, and on and on. But at the core, my answer to "Why?" is simply "I don't know." It just is. That's why I say it's in my blood.
For those who are out there "pushing" the hobby, have a good time. I won't "talk it up," appoint myself as a WGH "ambassador," or any of that stuff. While I'm sure you bring some people into the hobby for at least a short period of time, and maybe one or two folks with a latent interestthat you've kindled into a life-long passion (good for you!), that sort of salesmanship isn't me, and I don't think it really helps the hobby numbers much over the long run. I have photos of my layout on my screensaver at work, and a Model Railroader wall calendar in my cubicle. When folks ask me about my trains (and they do surprisingly frequently) I'll talk about them to the extent of the questioner's interest.
Annually starting next year (I hope), when I've completed some scenery and have something of interest to show to those with just a passing interest in what the "train nuts" do, I'll hold an open house one weekend in November. That's what I'll do for the health of the hobby. Beyond that, it will grow or shrink of its own accord, and I'll let it do that. As important as it is to me, it's my hobby. While I get great pleasure out of engaging in it, in the final analysis I owe it nothing.
(Sorry - lots of blathering on, there!)
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Brunton wrote: To all you folks who are saying "my kids like trains so the hobby isn't dying," or "I'm a teenager and I like trains so the hobby isn't dying" or "I know several kids who like model railroading, so the hobby isn't dying" or something similar - get a clue! This topic isn't about one or two people, but about the community of model railroaders as a whole! What once was a group of well over a quarter million people (depending on whose data you believe) is now, by many accounts, significantly smaller. If it continues to shrink, at some point it will become impossible for manufacturers to make a living. A few hundred model railroaders won't make a viable consumer base. You'll scratchbuild everything. That's what people mean when they talk about the hobby dying. The debate is really over whether the hobby is dying, or simply contracting. The answer to that won't be known for years, yet. Stay tuned and watch. For me, I don't really care. It's MY hobby, and always will be. What I can't buy (and sometimes what I can buy) I'll build for myself. If there is no one else in the country model railroading, I still will. There's only one reason someone is a life-long model railroader - it's in their blood (whatever that really means). Except for my marriage, model trains are the most important part of my personal life, and they generally have been since I was about 14. Why? Well, nostalgia, the satisfaction of making small machines work well, creating a world the way I want it to be, and on and on. But at the core, my answer to "Why?" is simply "I don't know." It just is. That's why I say it's in my blood. For those who are out there "pushing" the hobby, have a good time. I won't "talk it up," appoint myself as a WGH "ambassador," or any of that stuff. While I'm sure you bring some people into the hobby for at least a short period of time, and maybe one or two folks with a latent interestthat you've kindled into a life-long passion (good for you!), that sort of salesmanship isn't me, and I don't think it really helps the hobby numbers much over the long run. I have photos of my layout on my screensaver at work, and a Model Railroader wall calendar in my cubicle. When folks ask me about my trains (and they do surprisingly frequently) I'll talk about them to the extent of the questioner's interest. Annually starting next year (I hope), when I've completed some scenery and have something of interest to show to those with just a passing interest in what the "train nuts" do, I'll hold an open house one weekend in November. That's what I'll do for the health of the hobby. Beyond that, it will grow or shrink of its own accord, and I'll let it do that. As important as it is to me, it's my hobby. While I get great pleasure out of engaging in it, in the final analysis I owe it nothing. (Sorry - lots of blathering on, there!)
I guess you mean me among others... I didn't appoint myself WHG ambassador. That's a program run by the hobby industry through MR. You can't (and I don't) push the hobby, but you can get it out there where people will start talking about it.
My argument is that it's a lot more effective to try to do something about it than to sit and complain. But then, it's a lot easier just to complain, isn't it? Maybe it's my military training, but I'm not the sidelines type.
As for the industry, it seems that for every manufacturer that folds, there's another one coming out. Granted, they're small in scope and limited in specialty, but there's a lot of little mom-and-pop basement manufacturers popping up all the time. I would not expect to find that in a shrinking hobby.
Here's me doing my part:
It "means" kids see trains on TV.
If they see it on TV, they may ask for Thomas toys.
Playing with toy trains can lead to building model trains.
And Thomas appears at various railroad museums.
Kids go to these events, where they also see real trains.
Thomas' popularity can help this hobby grow. Open your eyes.
Although I was an avid model railroader as a teenager, I packed up the hobby along with the trains when I went away to college in the mid 1960's, and my own "modern era" has only been going for a couple of years. I think the hobby looks reasonably healthy, but demographics are not on our side. Many of the modellers are approaching retirement, which is going to be tough in more ways than one.
On the other hand, the whole Thomas phenomenon seems very healthy. I was at the Wilmington, MA, show over the weekend, and a number of Thomas vendors were there. One of the "serious" layout displays had an HO-scale Thomas running along with a coal drag. The kids were fascinated by all of the trains, not just Thomas. (Of course, old kids like me liked the all, too.) My hope is that parents will look beyond the limitations of Thomas and buy their kids "real" model trains when they see that sparkle in their eyes.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I'm in a modular club that sets up at the major attractions in our area whenever we can, things like fairs and festivals. We enjoy running the trains and it gets even better when the kids come along...
The look of fascination on their faces is worth the expense and work. In the photo below, one of our members holds a kid up so that he can get a better look...
This year we're expanding the layout modules even more plus I'm putting together an 'art' and memorabilia display that'll be off to one side, i.e. framed artwork, a display of different scales, maybe a few antiques. We're also getting Norfolk Southerns Operation Lifesaver instructor to put up a display in our area.
We're doing everything we can think of to grow the hobby in this area.
JaRRell
Brunton wrote:...What once was a group of well over a quarter million people (depending on whose data you believe) is now, by many accounts, significantly smaller....
...
What once was a group of well over a quarter million people (depending on whose data you believe) is now, by many accounts, significantly smaller.
Brunton wrote:...You'll scratchbuild everything. That's what people mean when they talk about the hobby dying...
-Dan
Builder of Bowser steam! Railimages Site
Dave,said:I guess you mean me among others... I didn't appoint myself WHG ambassador. That's a program run by the hobby industry through MR. You can't (and I don't) push the hobby, but you can get it out there where people will start talking about it.
========================================================
And take a closer look who started the WGH push.. Those who stand to lose the most Kalmbach,Carstens and the manufacturers..
That alone says a ton about the decline of the hobby over the past few years and BTW that is proof that the hobby has a slow growth rate..How slow? Slow enough that a "recruitment" program was started under the WGH banner..
As far as kids my son could care less about model trains,my daughter collects Chessie the cat memorabilia only because she likes cats,my oldest Grandson is a fair to meddling modeler my youngest Grandson doesn't care anything about trains.My Grand daughter doesn't understand why grown men play with toy trains as a hobby when there are other hobbies' for adult men.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIE wrote: And take a closer look who started the WGH push.. Those who stand to lose the most Kalmbach,Carstens and the manufacturers.. That alone says a ton about the decline of the hobby over the past few years and BTW that is proof that the hobby has a slow growth rate..How slow? Slow enough that a "recruitment" program was started under the WGH banner.. As far as kids my son could care less about model trains,my daughter collects Chessie the cat memorabilia only because she likes cats,my oldest Grandson is a fair to meddling modeler my youngest Grandson doesn't care anything about trains.My Grand daughter doesn't understand why grown men play with toy trains as a hobby when there are other hobbies' for adult men.
Fair enough. The hobby may be shrinking in terms of shear numbers, but then I'm not sure how you would actually quantify that with real data. And I know that the WGH push is by the manufacturers and publishers. Why not? After all, something has got to be done to compete with video games and the like, which bombard kids with commercials and ads. Boy, if this hobby had that effective an ad campaign, I doubt we'd be having this conversation.
I've only been a model railroader for 25 or so years, but my father's been in it since the early 1950s. Looking at what he had available back then and what was possible in terms of scenery and operations, versus now, there's no comparison. Quality, quantity, and availability have all increased immeasurably. There may be fewer of us now, but I think as a hobby, we can do so much more. I know, they were all craftsmen back then, right? What about Varney and Snap-Track? Maybe not. Even HO in the early 1980s was flooded with junk like Tyco and AHM that was only vaguely prototypical and barely ran. Nowadays there's BLI, PCM, P2K, Atlas, etc...
Well, we could slug at each other all day but get nowhere, because what we lack is hard data. There is no reliable way to measure how many model railroaders there are, because there's no national registry. Hobby sales are also a dubious source, since I imagine they're far more responsive to ripples in the overall economy which might mask long-term trends linked to hobby health. Train show attendance, too, is a tough call. Depends on what else is going on that weekend! The death of the LHS is comparable to the rise in on-line shopping and eBay. So...
If someone has hard numbers that can be verified (not just "I thought I read once that..."), let's hear it! In the meantime, you will be very hard-pressed to convince me I'm wrong for trying to promote the hobby.
If we were a secret society that did not advertise our function and our pursuits, we would have to recruit...period. That is not the case with our hobby, thanks to the marketing done by so many manufacturers. However, the marketing only works when the covers of the various magazines catch the eyes of the would-be's, and certainly seems to be constrained otherwise to the pretty (cheap) Christmas train sets that can only be seen in hobby shops at other times. I wonder how many would-be's have been turned off....or, turned on by their Christmas experience. Who's to tell?
This debate is useful if it serves no other purpose than to help us to accept that we are its greatest...and worst...ambassadors collectively. As another poster recently stated, if we rue our conclusions that the demise of our hobby is imminent, then we need some charismatic leaders to carry the flag for us if we do not wish to do that ourselves. As my Dad says, talk's cheap.
Perhaps this debate should turn to support of the NMRA and what that body could do for the hobby if it had greater support and more core strength from a wider range of members with talent and energy.
Dave,I would like to see the hard data..Again I don't think the hobby is dying a fast death..I DO BELIEVE it has a slow growth rate.
As far as video games hundreds of thousands stood in line for a CHANCE to get a Playstation 3 according to the news and most of those walked away empty handed because their wasn't enough produce because of production problems.
Dave Vollmer wrote: If someone has hard numbers that can be verified (not just "I thought I read once that..."), let's hear it! In the meantime, you will be very hard-pressed to convince me I'm wrong for trying to promote the hobby.
Dave - Go and look up the thread on the State of the Hobby that began on 06-05-2005 and my input to it. I spent better than a year or two gathering the information. There you will find all the "hard" data and indicators that can be verified concerning the hobby's current state relative to the past and why a decline is the only logical conclusion that can be reached. I will not bother posting these items again because whenever they are put up here all the oh-no-it-can't-be-so folks either start getting insulting or simply refuse to acknowledge the reality of the data! For 5 years now I've asked for any verifiable countering facts to the ones I've posted and never have seen a single one. It's always, "In my opinion...", "Well, I heard somewhere...", "This can't be so because I don't want it to be..." While this approach may be ok for challenging one point, it can't counter a group of indicators that all point to the same conclusion. Very few folks in this hobby seem to have even the slightest idea where we are at, how the manufactures operate or why and what limited runs are really a sign of. This is why you get so many foolish "opinion" posts whenever this subject comes up.
As to the question of what can be done about the situation, the answer is essentially nothing. Times change and so do peoples interests. Model railroading became a big deal around 50 years ago through a conjunction of special (particularly cultural) circumstances. Those who were kids at the time have brought forward their interest in trains to become the hobby's dominant component today. The circumstances that produced them can never come again in our society.
Dave Vollmer wrote:I guess you mean me among others... I didn't appoint myself WHG ambassador. That's a program run by the hobby industry through MR. You can't (and I don't) push the hobby, but you can get it out there where people will start talking about it. My argument is that it's a lot more effective to try to do something about it than to sit and complain. But then, it's a lot easier just to complain, isn't it? Maybe it's my military training, but I'm not the sidelines type. As for the industry, it seems that for every manufacturer that folds, there's another one coming out. Granted, they're small in scope and limited in specialty, but there's a lot of little mom-and-pop basement manufacturers popping up all the time. I would not expect to find that in a shrinking hobby. Here's me doing my part:
I guess you missed my point, Dave. I don't think anything needs to be done about "it." A contracting model railroad hobby isn't some great social calamity that needs to be rectified. I'm not sitting on the sidelines - since you're apparently always on the "field," so to speak, maybe you don't know that there aren't any sidelines. There's just how each individual chooses to pursue their hobby. If your way is to expose as many people as possible to it, that's good for you. Just please don't insinuate that I'm some kind of slacker because I don't choose to do that. OK?
If you'll be kind enough, point out to me where I'm complaining. Seems to me I was just sharing my perspective on the whole "hobby is dying" thing, and my basic attitude towards the hobby. No complaining in the whole post, even about folks who seem to think anyone who ever set up a table for their trains should get out and shove model railroading down the throats of the "unenlightened" (okay, a bit over-dramatic, but it makes my point. And don't take offense - that's NOT my intent).
You said "You can't (and I don't) push the hobby..." to me, then to Brakie you said "And I know that the WGH push is by the manufacturers and publishers." Seems to me that, if you are an officially approved and annoited "WGH Ambassador," then you're part of the push. And that's okay too. But don't look down on me for not getting out there and pushing along with you, okay?
Dave Vollmer wrote:You mean you never camped outside your LHS for days waiting for the monthy Micro-Trains release? For shame!!!
Noooo.But,I drove 105 miles one time to a hobby shop in order to trade some HO for N Scale way back in 79.That was the closest hobby shop that would horse trade.
Brunton wrote: Dave Vollmer wrote:I guess you mean me among others... I didn't appoint myself WHG ambassador. That's a program run by the hobby industry through MR. You can't (and I don't) push the hobby, but you can get it out there where people will start talking about it. My argument is that it's a lot more effective to try to do something about it than to sit and complain. But then, it's a lot easier just to complain, isn't it? Maybe it's my military training, but I'm not the sidelines type. As for the industry, it seems that for every manufacturer that folds, there's another one coming out. Granted, they're small in scope and limited in specialty, but there's a lot of little mom-and-pop basement manufacturers popping up all the time. I would not expect to find that in a shrinking hobby. Here's me doing my part:Wow! Your post reads as both defensive AND somewhat holier-than-thou, Dave (maybe it wasn't meant that way, but it reads that way). I didn't intend to engender either of those reactions. Let's stop and take a deep breath. No need to be defensive - I wasn't talking about anyone specifically. Since you bring it up, however, are you an "official" WGH Ambassador? If ther is such a thing (and if you are one of them), what did you have to do to earn that distinction? I guess you missed my point, Dave. I don't think anything needs to be done about "it." A contracting model railroad hobby isn't some great social calamity that needs to be rectified. I'm not sitting on the sidelines - since you're apparently always on the "field," so to speak, maybe you don't know that there aren't any sidelines. There's just how each individual chooses to pursue their hobby. If your way is to expose as many people as possible to it, that's good for you. Just please don't insinuate that I'm some kind of slacker because I don't choose to do that. OK? If you'll be kind enough, point out to me where I'm complaining. Seems to me I was just sharing my perspective on the whole "hobby is dying" thing, and my basic attitude towards the hobby. No complaining in the whole post, even about folks who seem to think anyone who ever set up a table for their trains should get out and shove model railroading down the throats of the "unenlightened" (okay, a bit over-dramatic, but it makes my point. And don't take offense - that's NOT my intent). You said "You can't (and I don't) push the hobby..." to me, then to Brakie you said "And I know that the WGH push is by the manufacturers and publishers." Seems to me that, if you are an officially approved and annoited "WGH Ambassador," then you're part of the push. And that's okay too. But don't look down on me for not getting out there and pushing along with you, okay?
Yep, I'm official. You apply through MR. It's not like it's a qualifying test or anything.
Yes, my post was defensive, but wasn't meant to be holier-than-thou. Sorry you read it that way. I just don't understand (neither will I ever) the idea that it's bad to think positive about the hobby. There are so many nay-sayers.
CNJ asked for hard facts and numbers, which is understandable. Hard to refute the truth.
Problem is, at least as a model train shop owner...I can make the numbers say whatever I want them to say. I'd make an excellent politician.
I think the main deal in not providing numbers is that most of the companies would not want that data available for their competitors to see.
Certainly I would have a hard time posting some of my numbers that apply to my shop. It would not be in my best interest to post figures whether they are good or bad. Might appear to some as advertising anyway.
Just my two cents for why there aren't the hard numbers...that, and some of the numbers would be hard to come by accurately anyway, I would think.
Dave,I think a lot of us old timers has seen the slow growth of the hobby over the past few years and the reasons are many.However,a lot of us old gray and white beards can recall going to the depot to watch trains,being invited for a "tour" of a local interlocking tower,some recall spending 2-3 hours talking to a switch tender or crossing guard...Then there was the Lionel setups in department store windows.Then model railroad clubs was a FRIENDLY place to go visit regardless of your age and some clubs would have a special open house for Boy Scouts and other such groups..Both the NMRA and train clubs was very active around Christmas and would have open houses,modeling clinics etc..Now today its hard to interact with railroaders and some clubs operate like a secrete society and treat the public with disdain and distrust especially youth.I think we can agree that type of treatment is not helping the hobby growth at all.
I have been to train shows and would be looking at the layouts on display and would ask a question and I would receive a mumbled reply or the guy would just turn and walk away..
Yeah,the reasons are many why we see a slow growth in the hobby.Sadly I don't think the WGH band aid will help because of the targeted audiences.Speaking of that..I haven't even heard of a WGH meeting in a 6 county area.Why? I am sure there are at least one ambassador in this 4 county area or even 6 county area after all there are several small cities and towns in the surrounding area with populations in the thousands..
Of course it may not be needed in this area because we have 8 different types of train clubs.Of course 2 of these clubs are active in the public eye.
One Track Mind wrote:I think the main deal in not providing numbers is that most of the companies would not want that data available for their competitors to see. Certainly I would have a hard time posting some of my numbers that apply to my shop. It would not be in my best interest to post figures whether they are good or bad.
Certainly I would have a hard time posting some of my numbers that apply to my shop. It would not be in my best interest to post figures whether they are good or bad.
You are correct. All the MRR manufactures and most hobby shops are private companies that do not have any obligation to publicly disclose their financial information - And like any private company they (wisely) won’t.
To me, the only way to end this debate is to obtain sales volume data as well as the (audited) financial balance sheets of each MRR company going back a few years. Sales volumes alone won’t settle the issue because there can be factors outside of a shrinking marketplace that would explain any declines. Of course there is realistically zero chance of getting this information.
So at present the debate continues to rage over incomplete data which can be spun to make a compelling case either way. I used to take sides on this debate, but now know better. Besides, it’s just a hobby. If it goes under, as sad as it will be I’ll simply find something else.
My here:
The ebb and flow of the hobby becoming more popular or not being as popular can be affected by many things and on many levels. I can only give you my personal experience here, no fancy statistical studies or numbers, but just what I have seen in my 30 + years of being in the model railroading hobby. One example of growth: I purchased the 1973 Walther’s Catalog way back in 1973 when it was brand the spanking new edition; it was about a ½ thick. I looked in that catalog every chance I got and dreamed all day long of having a HO scale layout. I had just gotten into the hobby at 12 years old, but was always influenced by my grandfather, who at the time had just dismantled and given away his HO scale Rock Island railroad layout to a Boy Scout troop in Pineville, LA. He modeled HO for about a dozen years or more in the late 50’s and through the 60’s. I remember him taking me to various and sundry layouts all over Pineville and Alex, LA and HO and O gauge seemed to prevail as the most modeled. He seemed to know everyone within a 50 mile radius that had an operating layout. These guys were “old timers” and usually had worked for a railroad or still did. I remember going to this one O gauge layout and I was given the privilege of being able to walk over the top of the layout on preset foot prints and go to the back of an area with a huge modeled logging camp. Another one of the layouts was set under a local arena and was locked within a glassed in room for public display, we got to sit and operate this one too. I wish he was alive today, I would like to ask him some more questions about all the model railroaders from the 1970’s who lived in that area. I just got my Walthers 2007 HO gauge catalog; it must be at least 2 inches thick.
Conclusion, it pays to know a few people in the area you live who model railroads. And Walther’s HO scale catalog has grown at least 1 ½ inches in thickness in the past 34 years, that might account for some growth in the hobby, eh!
As far as I am concerned the hobby is at just the right size at any given time in the past, now, and in the future. It is always moving and in flux, just like anything.
Cheers,
Ryan
Ryan BoudreauxThe Piedmont Division Modeling The Southern Railway, Norfolk & Western & Norfolk Southern in HO during the merger eraCajun Chef Ryan
Mark,
I'm going to share this publicly because I think it's important. First off, I want to say that I have great respect for you and feel as if you're a very positive force in these forums. I usually look forward to reading your postings and seeing pictures of your work. I was caught off guard when you admonished those who believe as I do to "get a clue." Hopefully you can understand why I got defensive.
It was wrong for me to suggest you (and others) aren't doing enough to promote the hobby. I'm sorry about that. I'm a big enough man to know that that was an unfair characterization.
I do, however, still respectfully disagree with the point in your posting that this is not about individuals, but the hobby as a whole. My view is that this hobby is made up of individuals. We don't speak with one voice. The NMRA (I was once a member) does an admirable job of trying, but in the end individual action is still necessary. Some battles have been won or lost based on the actions of individual soldiers. As long as real trains assume lesser and lesser importance in American life, the prototype won't be inspiration enough to keep the hobby population from dropping below the critical threshold at which it remains profitable for the manufacturers. We need to help it along.
This debate will no doubt rage on for years and years, and we are all rightfully passionate about our viewpoints. I hope we (myself included) can keep the debate cordial. I think it would be great for MR to do some no-kidding no-spin reporting on the subject, but I can't see them wanting to risk circulation and manufacturer support if the news turns out grim.