Agamemnon wrote:Nevermind. Nothing I can say at this point can mock this thread anymore than it already mocks itself.
I gave up cowboy action shooting which I dearly loved because of a bunch of know it all, stuck up, upper middle class snobs that competed with each other over everything they did!... It got to the point it wasn't any fun anymore.
As for model railroading. Snobs and know it alls can't touch me here because if they get too mouthy or stupid I just log off and go do my own thing for a while. I don't need others to enjoy railroading.
I think what will eventually kill model railroading won't be high prices or unfriendly people, but rather simply a lack of interest, and will be pushed aside for more modern plug and go things - like video games...
After I'm dead, I don't give a damn what they do.
Tracklayer
jim22 wrote:I'll admit to not reading the whole list of posts, but one thing I'm finding a bit intimidating (not that it's driving me out yet) is the huge gap between the die-hard rivet-counters and the toy train set drivers. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to step up to the "if it's not a $1000 DCC layout with a fleet of $500 sound engines running on 60 inch curves with #12 turnouts its not a model railroad" mentality. I just spent almost an hour a turnout adding point feeders and filing track ends and points because anything else is "not good enough". I may never get the layout running at this rate. I think maybe the Bachman EZ-Command drivers are just afraid to admit it here. Like I said, it hasn't driven me out yet, though. In fact I just bought an NCE PowerCab a couple days ago, and installed my first decoder. Tonight I opted to work on the track for the new layout. My onliest DCC engine is running on the trainboard I slapped together 15 years ago from some left-over 2x4's and a sheet of 1/2" OSB. It's not flat, it's not scenickd [sic], and it uses brass snap-switches, but it runs trains! When I get the inspiration, I rip out some stuff and hack in some new stuff. Maybe that should be considered model railroading too! BTW, I even have some TYCO trains :-oAnyway, I think I'll stay in the hobby for a while and see what develops. The last real modeler I got advice from told me to paint my track before I laid it. I'm opting to ignore him. If I paint it at all, I'll do it after I decide I'm sure I like the configuration and it runs well. I have yet to do a lick of scenery.Hope this didn't come accross as too negative. I didn't mean it that way.Jim
Jim, you sound like you're doing what you think other people want you to do, and not what you want. That's not fun, and it sure isn't a hobby. You shouldn't go DCC because you think you nmeed to impress Tony Koester. If you go DCC it should be because that's how you want to operate your trains. If you can do what you want in DC, who cares what Model Railroader magazine is pushing?
Good enough is what you say it is, not some editorial toward the back of a magazine. Granted, we all tend to be impressed by the big expensive layouts, but you shouldn't be in this to impress anyone but yourself. The "big guys" you read about in MR have typically been in the hobby for years and years and devote insane amounts of time to the hobby; more than many of us can. As you spend more and more time in the hobby, just like any other skill, your work will improve dramatically. It just plain doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, unless they're the ones buying your trains for you!
BTW, good idea on the track. Don't paint it until after you have it laid. Otherwise you'll have to strip the paint off the sides of the rails at each joint so the paint won't insulate the rails from the joiners.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I have to disagree with Mr. Vollmer on this. To me it sounds like he is challenging all the preconcieved dogma that is preached about what works and what doesn't and how things should be done and charting his own course.
Im kind of doing the same thing. I look at all the new "advancements" that have taken place in recent years and am left with a sense of."Am I even in the same hobby", I agree that I try to avoid Brass track, because I do not have to clean it as often as I do nickle silver. However I do have brass track in yard and in side tracks that don't see locomotives traveling over it very often. But going through all that code 83, code 70, code 55 busness. I will pass thank you. Code 100 track is still the cheapest and since I am bottom line minded. thats what I will continue to use. Maybe if the other codes get down below $1.00 a section like I can get code 100 for. I will switch. But till then. Code 100 and happy as a clam.
Another area that I have issiues with is DCC. Its expensive. Its complicated. And lastly I just plain don't understand it. I read about all those programming and adjusting CVs and installing decoders in old locomotives, the complications of adding sound to old locomotives. And then how to figure things out when things go wrong. And I am left with. You know what. I have been using DC control for the last 20 years. I have all the stuff bought and paid for. I don't need to convert any locomotives, and most importantly, I flip the toggle switch, turn the nob on the power pack. And the train moves every time.
And on the topic of DC control, many people are surprised that I still use those little power packs that come in train sets. People will comment on how they are weak and under powered and can only really power one or two locomotives at once. But I realised that so far, all my layouts have been small affairs. no more than two trains at one time, and then only one locomove typicly at that on each train. And since the layouts are small, the typical train lenght isn't that much more than the trains that came in the train set they came with, so I figure that these are already suitable for my needs, might as well use them. True I have since picked up some MRC power packs that came with various purchases over the years. But until I get a layout where I need a three or four locomotive consist. In the box they will stay. I like my power packs mounted on a control panel iether on a shelf off to the side of the layout, or mounted into the facia of the layout, and an MRC power pack takes up too much room of my available isle space. Perhaps when I can find DCC systems for $20.00 or less on E-bay I will consider changing.
Then on the topic of Rivit Counters. I agree I fall into the trap of blaming them from time to time. See my post MY PROJECT FOR MODEL RAILROAD MONTH. I tell the "nit pickers" that yes I know that my Bachmann UP 4-8-4 is an ATSF boiler with an SP tender and complain to some one that cares. However after reading this thread, I got to wondering. perhaps its not the rivit counters that are causing all the problems. After all they are to busy counting rivits to spend much time here it seems like. Perhaps its those who view them selves as artists who are stirring up the pot. Seems like I hear alot more people defending themselves with the "Im an artist and don't need to count rivits" than I do the rivit counters defending the justifcations behind their practices.I feel I fall some where in the middle. I follow a favorite prototype, the GN, to a large extant. But I am not out to recreate it rivit for rivet. If anything I have independently found the same path that Howard Zane described in his layout article in last months Railroad Model Craftsman, where you have your favorite RR or RRs and your favoirite area of the country, and you set out to create a layout of what Could have existed. I agree that any one with eneugh patients and time (the rivit counters) can create a miniature copy of the original. But I feel that my creative energies, and limitations are better expressed by me following my own variation on a theme, than trying to recreate the past.
Sorry I have rambled on for so long. But this is just my worth.
James
I finally decided to come back and read all the posts after mine. First I'm amazed at how long this post has gotten and how many replies have come and some great comments. And I agree wh chang into modern technology if DC is working for you.
Second I dont try to impress people I dont think anyone should. I lookat my layout and say ok I have this and that because I want it. Not because someone has it. I will admit my layout most likely wont hit the pages of MRR or any other magazine but I dont care because its mine nd I am proud I created a small world for me to get lost in. Thats the fun part, once you start doing it for other then it is just a show piece and becomes no fun or atleast that my opinion.
I think thos post should be closed and I dont know how to close it
emdgp92 wrote:My feeling has always been that if you want "ultra realism" by all means, go for it. However, don't put down the rest of us simply because we don't.
I believe the number of people in the hobby is declining as the number of railroads decline. I live in central Illinois close to what used to be the Illinois Central tracks. This is now the Canadian National and there have been other changes in between. As a child, I would hop on my bike as soon as I heard the crossing bell clanging and saw the wig-wag swinging so I could have a front row seat as the passenger and freight runs sped through every couple of hours. Now there are no passenger trains on this branch and there are only 1 or 2 freight trains a day; and most of these are locals. Yesterday I was thrilled to watch a hundred car "grain train" travel through. I believe this is the only time I have seen more than 15 or 20 cars go through at a time since last harvest. The branchline line that used to travel east and west across this main is now gone along with the occassional train that traversed it.
Stopping at a crossing for a passing train used to be a wonderful experience. Now it is just another agravation stopping us from getting to the ballgame, or the grocery store, or the Playstation or Nintendo game. I worked as an appliance and electronics servicer for 30 years and found most of my customers to be friendly and appreciative. There were of course a few "know it alls" out there but I quickly learned to ignore them. Afterall if they really knew as much as they thought they did they wouldn't have needed me to fix there equipment.
No, I don't think the hobby is being ruined as much as simply fading due to the lack of contact with prototype railroads and the cookie cutter looks of the modern railroads. You no longer can debate which passenger line has the best looking color scheme or marvel at the caboose at the end of a train. Several decades ago I saw the interest of kids moving from model railroading to slot cars, then to RC cars and trucks, to Atari and then more advanced video games. Now you can buy computer simulations and don't even need a layout because you can run virtual trains with an engineers view. DCC and all the other electronic systems we develop won't spark new hobbyists until they have had contact with either the real thing or are taken to model railroading shows and meets and see for themselves what we are talking about.
The next time you are sitting at a grade crossing grumbling that you are going to be late for something that really is not that important anyway, take the time to focus on the children with you (the really important ones) and point out things that might help them become enthused with the hobby.
My goodness. Such a string of postings.
I do what I want, run what I want and call it what I want and anyone who doesn.t like it or takes exception is....well, rude silly and ill informed.
Shilshole wrote: emdgp92 wrote:My feeling has always been that if you want "ultra realism" by all means, go for it. However, don't put down the rest of us simply because we don't. Who's doing that?
emdgp92 wrote:The point I was trying to make, is that some of us simply enjoy running trains, and don't bother much with some of the details.
David Parks I am the terror that flaps in the night!
good evening milwhiawath
who said this hobby is being runied?
roy
Some interesting posts.
The people who like to differentiate between “serious” modelers and those that do not meet their definition of “serious” are, I my opinion, hurting this hobby the most. It is the “my way is the only way” syndrome that puts people off.
As long as I am having fun, then I do not really care what others think but I do care when they start to tell others that I am not a model railroader.
jim22 wrote:Hello James, You can see my reply to Dave. I don't have much to add for you, except that the modeler I have been operating with has a huge layout that was DC until about a year and a half ago. He used some extremely simple home-build DC throttles that were lightyears ahead of the Tyco powerpacks I was trying to use. You're powerpacks may be better than mine, but mine have poor low speed control. I haven't actually drawn out the circuit, but it was supposed to have been published in an old magazine article. By the way, this modeler has been extremely generous and has given me several DC engines, a DC throttle, and in fact a whole 4x6 layout, which has really gotten me started in the hobby. As for DCC, it IS expensive. I decided to go for it because I do mostly understand it (I'm an Electrical Engineer with a Computer Hardware specialty), and I'm just getting started. Using DCC will greatly simplify the wiring on my layout, and make operations much more flexible and easier. My experience is that DCC lets the operator forget about the mechanics of making the DC layout run and concentrate on the train operations themselves. I bet I won't be given any more nice trains, though :-)Thanks very much for your words,Jim
I agree that the power packs I use might not have as precise of control as some of the more expensive power packs, however, it is good eneugh for me. And do have more speed posistions than Off, Fast, To Fast, and Warp Drive.
jim22 wrote:Hi Dave, I think it's not so much that I'm doing what others want, but that I think I need to develop my own experience base for myself. The truth is I don't really know what is good enough. I don't want to end up with a bunch of train junk that's frustrating or boring to run. I'm afraid I'm tainted by my exposure to a very advanced modeler with whom I've been operating regularly for the last year. I plan to progress at my own rate, making my own decisions, and living with the consequences. After all, my railroad should eventually have many "modules", the first of which I'm building now. Nobody says the second (or third module) can't be an improved replica to replace it if something doesn't work out :-) Thanks very much for your words,Jim
Jim, you need to make the distinction between a modeller advising you on what works well and what doesn't and one who is hung up on the prototypical operation and proper time periods of equipment. We have a couple of the latter in our club and I've found a good way to deal with them. Did you know that a Bowser K4 will pull about a dozen Walther's Superliners on a 2% grade? Heck, a Mantua General will pull one. An Athearn P42 will pull about six Rivarossi Pennsy Heavyweights. Just doing this once in a while drives home the point that some people take some thing too seriously.
I wonder what a GE P42 would look like in Tuscan Red with the Pennsy whisker stripe decals?
Let's see, brick and mortar hobby shops are closing down because rivet counters ruined the hobby?
I went to a trainshow last weekend, it was slow, rivet counters again, I'll wager. Oh PLEASE!!!
That's lame, no it's ludicrous, get a grip people. Why on earth do you have to justify what you do?
Are you really that inferior????or just shallow?
I have yet to see any proof that the original premise to this entire, long, thread is valid. What ruination, and show me the evidence.
Someone?
The hobby is not being ruined. No one is ruining it.
We have always had some cranky train shop owners.
We have always had nitpickers.
We have always had complainers.
What we have not had in the past is a worldwide place to gripe about everything. This magnifies "problems" that have always been a part of the hobby.
I'm not blaming this forum, or other forums, but you can see the same thing happening in mass media.
Little kids still like trains.
There are still trains to watch.
Some train shows are doing fine.
A lot of train shops are doing well. They are not extinct. Did you know that train shops went out of business before there was an eBay?
Too much doom and gloom. Let's try to appreciate things better with a little more positive attitude than I see at times. Some folks are right, if I was new to the hobby and just picked up an issue of MR and discovered this forum....I'm not sure what I would think about how much fun it will or won't be.
Just my persepective.
One Track Mind wrote: The hobby is not being ruined. No one is ruining it. We have always had some cranky train shop owners. We have always had nitpickers. We have always had complainers. What we have not had in the past is a worldwide place to gripe about everything. This magnifies "problems" that have always been a part of the hobby. I'm not blaming this forum, or other forums, but you can see the same thing happening in mass media. Little kids still like trains. There are still trains to watch. Some train shows are doing fine. A lot of train shops are doing well. They are not extinct. Did you know that train shops went out of business before there was an eBay? Too much doom and gloom. Let's try to appreciate things better with a little more positive attitude than I see at times. Some folks are right, if I was new to the hobby and just picked up an issue of MR and discovered this forum....I'm not sure what I would think about how much fun it will or won't be. Just my persepective.
One Track Mind
I agree with you on your perspective. Any venture is what you make of it.
We should focus on the positive aspects of the hobby in order to enjoy it. The Hobby is the best it has been in forty years and offers more models to the average consumer than ever before in the history of the hobby.
Thirty years ago in the club I ran weekly, only those who could afford to purchase brass and have it painted could run the special steam and diesel models. The average member only looked on and wished they could purchase one of those models. Today, almost anyone is able to purchase a BLI or Proto model that looks good and run great.
In the last five to six years, we have been able to purchase model steam locomotives with sound that actually run and look like the prototype.
True, Kato and Atlas have been doing a good job of making modern diesels available for at least fifteen years, but steam was never available except in limited runs of brass and most of the early brass steam models were unpainted.
I for one appreciate the overall quality of the BLI/ PCM, Trix, P2K and Genesis products and hope this trend continues.
Enjoy the best of times in this hobby. The good of days were only so so! I was there.
CAZEPHYR wrote: One Track Mind wrote: The hobby is not being ruined. No one is ruining it. We have always had some cranky train shop owners. We have always had nitpickers. We have always had complainers. What we have not had in the past is a worldwide place to gripe about everything. This magnifies "problems" that have always been a part of the hobby. I'm not blaming this forum, or other forums, but you can see the same thing happening in mass media. Little kids still like trains. There are still trains to watch. Some train shows are doing fine. A lot of train shops are doing well. They are not extinct. Did you know that train shops went out of business before there was an eBay? Too much doom and gloom. Let's try to appreciate things better with a little more positive attitude than I see at times. Some folks are right, if I was new to the hobby and just picked up an issue of MR and discovered this forum....I'm not sure what I would think about how much fun it will or won't be. Just my persepective. One Track Mind I agree with you on your perspective. Any venture is what you make of it. We should focus on the positive aspects of the hobby in order to enjoy it. The Hobby is the best it has been in forty years and offers more models to the average consumer than ever before in the history of the hobby. Thirty years ago in the club I ran weekly, only those who could afford to purchase brass and have it painted could run the special steam and diesel models. The average member only looked on and wished they could purchase one of those models. Today, almost anyone is able to purchase a BLI or Proto model that looks good and run great. In the last five to six years, we have been able to purchase model steam locomotives with sound that actually run and look like the prototype. True, Kato and Atlas have been doing a good job of making modern diesels available for at least fifteen years, but steam was never available except in limited runs of brass and most of the early brass steam models were unpainted. I for one appreciate the overall quality of the BLI/ PCM, Trix, P2K and Genesis products and hope this trend continues. Enjoy the best of times in this hobby. The good of days were only so so! I was there.
For me Broadway Limited saved my participation in the hobby with the quality Steam Locomotives that are good performers.
Yes I recall the brass engines of long ago and remember that 200 dollar engine now costing in the neighborhood of 1300-1500 dollars.
The trend will continue, The other day I picked up some very good books that were written by Armstrong back in the early 60's and they were quite good and revelant today.
[Willie Nelson]
Mommas don't let your babies grow up to count rivets,
Don't let them rebuild old archbar trucks
Make sure they become lawyers, serial killers and such
'Cause they will become giant pains in the
They'll give you migraines, psoriasis and gas........
[/Willie Nelson]
One Track Mind wrote: What we have not had in the past is a worldwide place to gripe about everything. This magnifies "problems" that have always been a part of the hobby.
Exactly right, and an examination of magazines' "Letters to the Editor" columns of the past will prove the sentiments have been around forever.