Who can continue to pay for this hobby?

[SqueakyWheels]

I knew full well of what I wanted, what I was getting into, and how much it was going to cost. My wife asked me how much money would be needed. I told her that we would need $3000 to get the ball rolling. She said OK.

The first locomotive I bought was an BB GP38-2 from Horizon Hobbies. It was kind of a shocker when I removed the shell, and an electric roller skate was revealed inside. Gee, I didn't think they made stuff like this anymore. In the meantime, I modified it so it can have a decoder installed. Now it just sits in a box in pieces, waiting for the decoder to arrive, one of these days.

Bought a Bachmann Russian Decapod 2-10-0. After lubricating the siderods and sliders, the thing still sticks- so I have to pay to send the loco back to Bachmann.

Just two things I wasn't aware of- that Athearn still makes tanks from a design back from the 40's, and Bachmann still makes junk.

My favorite one is an Atlas EMD24, which I put a decoder in. The decoder went haywire, so it too sits in pieces waiting for another decoder to be soldered in. It may have to wait even longer as I am planning on getting a LOKsound decoder from Tony's.

Atlas will probably be the only company I buy locos from, after my experience of what you get VS what you pay for.

I also have an Genesis F7 with the shell removed, waiting on new lights. Whenever they get here. I have been trying to find light pipes, so I can use L.E.D.s, but there's no one out ther that makes them. I don't know if Richmond Controls can reduce a 3MM golden White down to a 1MM diameter, so that they would fit in the bezels. Santa Fe has the two headlight, one Mars light, and the red reverse light. For the rivet counters, the GOR bulbs don't look very prototypical to me. But, my layout isn't very prototypical either. Ho.
Outside of buildings, and scenery, there isn't going to be anything else purchased, until all this other stuff gets put back right.

It just scares me to think of what my Mother has in store for me this Christmas. Sorry, my heart just ain't in it. She will probably buy me a Donkey, and tell me to go and enter it into the Kentucky Derby.

Thanks for all of your support, and input, guys.

[red p]

For those of you that what the old prices back, do you want the old level of detail back too?

[trainfan1221]

I remember not buying a new Athearn Model in the 80s because the price had gone up to about 25 dollars and that was just too much.  Yeah that was a long time ago.  But back then that was a lot for a new engine!

[selector]

It is a fact that very few of us can have what we desire most.  The wise among us desire less and less as they learn what it all means.

You can be content with your lot, or you can choose to be miserable and envious.  If you want happiness in life, and certainly in this hobby, you should work hard to enjoy what you have.

My mother taught me that.

[beegle55]

This post is really getting big.

[IRONROOSTER]

This post is really getting big.

Yeah, this is everyone's favorite topic


Paul

[beegle55]

Yea that makes you wonder if some of the posters are just cheap and haven't dabbled in any other hobby.

[trainfan1221]

Who can afford another hobby?  It's good to pick out what you will really want and just plan for that.  There was a new loco coming out that I figured would be my next purchase.  Can't remember what it was though...

[Anonymous]

One good hobby is sufficient. The rest are just creative ways to enjoy a leisure time.

[Anonymous]

I understand you, and think about the money exchange I face here in Canada.  I want the new Rapido's Super Continental cars.  My hobby shop told me they were to be priced at near 60$CAN.  I saw an add in MR at 42$US.  I told the owner that and the next time I went he said that his price would be equal after talking to Rapido.  It is certain that all the costs already described here are a major factor, but the prices should not be so high because they are not done this side of the Pacific Ocean.  Who is taking all the difference?

[ARTHILL]

I have found this hobby much less expensive, now that I am reading all these posts. A model takes much longer to build and the money lasts longer. Of course I do not count the high speed internet as a RR cost.

[Anonymous]

michelouimette;

You mean to tell me that I can walk into your favorite hobby shop in Mont-St -whatever the name of that burg is, Quebec with $42.00CAN in my pocket and walk out with an item that costs $42.00US?

Let's see now!!! I can get $42.00CAN for $31.50US, go across the border and purchase one of these new Rapido cars and come back across the border and market it on ebay for $41.00US undercutting the discounters and then get $42.00CAN for $31.50US, go across the border and .............................  Boy!!  I think I just figured out how I'm going to continue to pay for this hobby!! I haven't struck a deal like this since I bought a half interest in the London Bridge over at Lake Havasu!!

Tell your hobby shop owner I'll take a thousand as long as he'll let me pick them up one at a time for thirty-six months.  I'll be up day after tomorrow.  While I'm there think you can set me up with some of that free medical care which the Bleeding Heart Liberals here in the states are always raving about???  You people do have it made doncha???

[Medina1128]

eBay continues to be a fairly good source for model railroad equipement. But, it's like anything that you buy from a private seller. Caveat emptor - let the buyer beware. I've had good luck, and will only deal with people that have a very high percentage of positive feedback. Developing a good relationship with a LHS that specializes in trains has helped immensely, as well. They give a bigger discount to regular customers.  The downside is that they are about 60 miles away. I've developed the relationship to the point that when I need something, I just call and since they have my debit card information on file, they just bill it and ship it.

The other points about the high cost of the hobby are true, sadly. A lot of it is the high cost of oil, which is used to make everything in our hobby. And if it's not made from oil, it's shipped using oil. But, my advice is, shop around. If you're talking about a high end locomotive, treat as if you were buying an expensive appliance or TV. Great deals can also be found from vendors at train shows. A lot of them buy in bulk from the manufacturers, so many times they are noticeably cheaper than MSRP.

[whitman500]

I'd be really surprised if the manufacturers are making a lot of money despite the high prices.  A couple in Europe have recently gone bankrupt and the consolidation of the industry in the US reflects an industry under pressure.  I think what we are seeing is the result of the industry's conscious decision to abandon the mass market and shift model railroading into the high-end, niche category.  The biggest factor in the cost of a locomotive isn't oil but rather the size of production run.  A design that sells 1,000 units is going to cost a lot more than one that sells 10,000 units.  However, with declining interest from children in model railroading, I think manfacturers have given up on trying to produce a $30 engine that they can sell in Toys R US (which, unlike 15 years ago, no longer stocks model railroad products) to lots of people.  Instead, they are opting for the speciality market where people will pay more for better details, etc. and can afford a high-end engine that has a limited production run. 

The concerning thing is that this trend is likely to continue, inexorably, if the hobby continues to decline in popularity.  And when the Baby Boomers pass away, what happens then with no young hobbyists because the manufacturers abandoned the mass market?  Buy as much as you can now because I fear that prices will only rise over the long run.

[skiloff]

I think what michelouimette meant is that the store would match the equivalent US$ number, so $42US would be about $47Cdn. I don't know where you get your $42Cdn equalling $31.50US. Our dollar has gained huge against your American buck the last couple years. $42Cdn is about $37.50US. If you want to drive across the border to make $4.50US each trip, I think you'd go broke. Gas does cost money.

I'll ignore the free medical care comment because this is a train forum after all. And I'm not a bleeding heart liberal.

[CNJ831]

I'd be really surprised if the manufacturers are making a lot of money despite the high prices.  A couple in Europe have recently gone bankrupt and the consolidation of the industry in the US reflects an industry under pressure.  I think what we are seeing is the result of the industry's conscious decision to abandon the mass market and shift model railroading into the high-end, niche category.  The biggest factor in the cost of a locomotive isn't oil but rather the size of production run.  A design that sells 1,000 units is going to cost a lot more than one that sells 10,000 units.  However, with declining interest from children in model railroading, I think manfacturers have given up on trying to produce a $30 engine that they can sell in Toys R US (which, unlike 15 years ago, no longer stocks model railroad products) to lots of people.  Instead, they are opting for the speciality market where people will pay more for better details, etc. and can afford a high-end engine that has a limited production run. 

Amazing! There are actually at least a few folks here who understands and appreciate what's truly driving prices ever higher and where the market is going. Congratulations, Whitmann500!

CNJ831

[Soldier]

I began this thread after hearing two teenagers chatting in a hobby shop. The gist of their conversation was that the ever-rising costs were making modeling life difficult for them and one youngster told the store clerk he'd probably not continue the hobby. He simply couldn't afford it.That prompted me to write the opening comment to this thread. I wasn't whining as one respondent inferred. Merely stating an assertion, based on my observations.

I have a friend -- who like me -- is on a fixed income, and must save for several months before he can update his equipment. He tends to rearrange his layout, spending considerable time rebuilding terrain and tracks. Now he slowing down because certain items, not all, will take time to purchase.

When I was 13, I started out with a Lionel train layout that began as the traditional circle, eventually transformed into a figure eight, and eventually one track over another with spurs and turn outouts. This wasn't done over night but over many years. I cut grass, shoveled snow and deliverd magazines and newspapers to satisfy my need to be creative using model railroad trains as my tools. That was 62 years ago.

I moved to HO when that scale became vogue and have stayed with that scale. But I change my layout often, removing certain terrain and rebuilding new ones, using multi levels, etc. I also like traction thus have seven trolleys that travel within and around my railroad.

Sure, there are plenty of folks who can afford this hobby, and that has become evident in the comments in this thread. Yes, most hobbies are expensive -- a relative term.There's much to be said about this hobby other than gratification in building somerthing constructive that can produce entertainment, challenge, know-how and pleasure. My statements were not focused on those with money to spare, but about those planning to enter this hobby and hoping to achieve the level where pleasure and joy become reality. Most of us in this hobby have been there.

My focus, unfortunately not clearly stated, was also aimed at those on an already tight budget who may become frustrated by rising costs and may cut short their goal of producing something that satisfies their need to be creative and to remain a working member of the MRR community.

The response to me comments are overwhelming. I'm glad I was able to start an exchange of thoughts and ideas. 

GGB

 

[Anonymous]

I'd be really surprised if the manufacturers are making a lot of money despite the high prices.  A couple in Europe have recently gone bankrupt and the consolidation of the industry in the US reflects an industry under pressure.  I think what we are seeing is the result of the industry's conscious decision to abandon the mass market and shift model railroading into the high-end, niche category.  The biggest factor in the cost of a locomotive isn't oil but rather the size of production run.  A design that sells 1,000 units is going to cost a lot more than one that sells 10,000 units.  However, with declining interest from children in model railroading, I think manfacturers have given up on trying to produce a $30 engine that they can sell in Toys R US (which, unlike 15 years ago, no longer stocks model railroad products) to lots of people.  Instead, they are opting for the speciality market where people will pay more for better details, etc. and can afford a high-end engine that has a limited production run. 

Amazing! There are actually at least a few folks here who understands and appreciate what's truly driving prices ever higher and where the market is going. Congratulations, Whitmann500!

CNJ831

They do that by the threat of limited run.

Yes you can get a nicer engine today but you have to order it before the deadline if you want a copy. That is what is hurting the hobby. I point to the Walthers Barge and Float Dock Kit as an example. They were produced several years ago at what... 30-50 dollars retail?

I had a set that had no room for on my layout, a week of intense bidding on ebay produced a winning big for both kits for about 3-5 times the retail value. In the same time MR releases harbor articles about docks, ships and barges while everyone scrambled to find walthers tugs, floats and barges that were out of production.

While Im not picking too much on walthers as an example of an out of production item Im saying the people are getting squeezed into either ordering the item on the spot unseen or do without because it will be sold out with the entire run allocated to pre-orders and no or little chance of additional sales unless a second run was made.

To tell you the truth, I as a customer have NO idea about how many units were produced, how many orders were made, cost to make, cost to sell to retail and profit margins. All of that are trade secrets.

I think that the pressure from the Manufactors is getting too hot, I have a fixed hobby budget that is pretty good but takes time to acquire some of the higher ticket items. I usually do without and focus on things like structures, scenery and control systems that are always availible.

I say that the internet saved the hobby. To be able to get a list of hobbyshops that acquired a Out-of-production item from a Walthers Catalog webpage and email each hobby shop looking for in stock items and to recieve several responses with a cost including shipping usually produces a desired item.

Without the internet I suppose I will be running a loop of track with a few things that may or may not fit the era Im trying to model.

[grayfox1119]

SOLDIER: There are more people who are in those very same financial conditions that speak of, than most people realize. I did the very same thing that you did and the same age of 8. Now I am retired, 67 years old, fixed income, and trying to do the best I can with what limited funds I have.
We all have to make choices in life, and our hobbies and what we spend on them is one of those choices.

[Paul3]

Safety Valve,
Remember, if it wasn't for limited runs, do you think that dock scene would ever have been produced in plastic?  Walthers has made the Steel Mill, the Paper Mill, the Waterfront, the Auto Plant, the Loco Facility, and the Dairy.  If they did the long production runs of yesteryear, they'd still be cranking out Steel Mills (Walther's first "theme"). 

Is it disappointing when you can't find a model you are after that used to be common?  Absolutely (seen any plastic pellet silos recently from Walthers?).  But at least they made them and, if you're lucky, you may find them at a train show or LHS or eBay, or they may even re-release it.  It may take you a while, but they can be had...which would be a lot more difficult if they hadn't made it in the first place.

Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************

[Anonymous]

skiloff;

You people may have socialized medicine up there but it sure hasn't contributed to your sense of humor

My brother lives in Michigan and his local newspaper recently printed the latest joke floating around the medical community in Detroit and Port Huron.

Question: Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in Canada?
Answer:    Make a doctor's appointment and then wait for the doctor to be born.

We have here a perfect example of both ignorance and apathy; I not only don't know what the exchange rate is from one day to the next, I don't care what the exchange rate is from one day to the next.  I only know a couple of years ago there was something on one of the TV channels and the rate quoted at that time pegged the Canadian dollar at seventy-three cents.  My rib only pegged it at eighty cents; your figure pegs it at eighty-nine cents.  I only know one thing; it ain't pegged at one hundred cents and I'll leave it at that....................

[Railphotog]

skiloff;

Question: Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in Canada?
Answer:    Make a doctor's appointment and then wait for the doctor to be born.

Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in the US?

Get really sick and don't have an expensive health care plan!

 

[RMax1]

I see this post time and time again.  "Do you want to go back to the models with less details?  Look at the details of today"  or something like that.  If I can not afford to buy the nice new detailed loco then what does it matter how finely detailed they are?  You could shrink the real thing down to HO scale and it still would not matter.  If you price it out of range I can not buy it and it sits on the shelf at the store or someone with more money can have it.  It's not about being cheap.  It's about making things that some people can not afford and over pricing somethings that people at one time could afford.  Walthers could make a $10000 plastic F7 that is the nicest in the world.  Would I buy it? NO way.  Would someone?  Sure they would.  Why?  Because they could and the rest of the hobby would suffer.  Everybody else would suffer because the mentality is "hey someone out there will pay what ever we want for something" and if they want it bad enough they have no other choice because no one is producing anything for less money.  What  gets me mad is not understanding things like this example. I at one time would buy Proto 1000 F3's for $20 to $40 each.  Now a  they sell for $123.25 online for the pair.  Ok $80 for the pair not long ago and maybe even $40 to $50 or $123.25 for the pair now?  $43.25 increase and this is less than 3 years????  Ok they added a DCC connector!  Yes you can get them from Trainworld for less but most likely not what you want.  If you model the New Haven then a MKT loco would seem a little strange there.

RMax1

[IRONROOSTER]

...

Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in the US?

Get really sick and don't have an expensive health care plan!

 

Too true. 

To add insult to injury the bill is 2 1/2 to 5 times higher for those without insurance.

Paul

[BRAKIE]

RMax1,Like I mention the BEST PRICE BUSTER we have is sitting before us..Our computers.

I am medically retired and live on a fixed  retirement plan from the company and union I once toil for. Saying that  let me assure you I buy at the BEST DISCOUNT PRICE I can find on the net and only buy the items I need or truly want.   

Also detail parts is available for detailing locomotives..Its one of the most relaxing facets of the hobby that many modelers over look in todays "Gotta have Now And It Best Be 110% Correct Hobby".

 

[Paul3]

RMax1,
There is no way that P1K F3's were $20 to $40 each at MSRP, and please don't bring in sale prices because there's no proof.  I can say that I bought P2K PA-1's and E8A's for $40 ea. at a train show (and I did)...but how would you know that I did? 

Would it be fair for me to say, "One time, I bought a P1K RDC-2 for $20.  Now they want $75 for a new one.  That's a $55 increase!  That's not fair!"  Puh-leaze (the MSRP of the RDC-2's was $65).  That RDC-2 was being blown out at a train show by my club's white elephant table, where I got a member discount, too.  The new RDC-1's were being sold full MSRP at a hobby shop.  Is that a fair comparison? 

BTW, Athearn still makes the non-detailed locos of yesteryear at reasonable prices.  Why don't you buy them?  They have a bunch of locos under $50.  And if they don't have your road name, I guess you better learn how to paint & decal like I did.

How soon people forget what it was like 15 years ago, when there was little selection and what was there was some real junky stuff.  If you were a NH fan in 1991, good luck finding anything.  Only Atlas C-425's, RS-11's, RS-1's & RS-3's, Stewart U25B's & RS-3's were any good.  Of course, you could buy those lovely "shorty" rubber band RDC's, nonsense F7's, and ridiculous SDP40's from Athearn.  Oh, the joy of being a NH fan then, where if you wanted a passenger engine, you had to buy brass or custom paint a loco or two.

I'm sorry, but I can't complain about a "limited run" system that has provided me with $75 DL109's in 2 NH paint schemes and 4 numbers, full length geared RDC's for under $80, PA-1's in 3 NH schemes in 6 numbers, NH RS-3's for $90, 2 different NH S-1's, NH S-2's, 2 different NH FA's in 4 schemes, 2 different NH RS-11's, NH RS-1's in 2 schemes, NH RS-2's in 2 schemes and 4 numbers,  H16-44's in two styles with 2 schemes, NH EF-4's (E-33's), etc.  Even CPA25-5's are coming soon in NH paint for $150.

Now, do I have all these locos?  No, I don't.  But I know, when I have the money, that they are out there to be had...which is a lot more than I could say in 1991.

Paul A. Cutler III
*************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*************

[canazar]

...

Do you know the easiest way to commit suicide in the US?

Get really sick and don't have an expensive health care plan!

 

Too true. 

To add insult to injury the bill is 2 1/2 to 5 times higher for those without insurance.

Paul

 

Actually, I have found quite oppisite is true.   I am self employed and havent had health insurance for almost 9 years.  Being slef employed and getting health insurance can be a quite a drag.   There have been a few times when something has come up and I needed professional help.   Here is a great example, I needed blood work done at a lab..  

Sir, that will be 160.00, do you have yoru insurance card?"

"Well, how about cash? Any discount?"

"Oh yes, that will 95.00 then."

I have found smaller practices and even the urgent care centers like cash (Plastic works too) much better than insuarnce.  As one doctor explained to me they wait forever for money to roll in from the insuance companies.  Plus, the more often than not, can lose some of the money due to charges.  (Sometimes taking 3-6 months to get the money)   When someone offers good old cash, they are more than happy to take it and usually offer great discounts.

That being said, I do plan on getting insuarnce but for only major stuff.  High premuim and such. In case somthien catostrophic happens, such as cut off finger at work or a organ fails.  Just cheaper to pay anythign under 4000-5000.00 out of pocket.     Typical insurance for me would have been  around 100 a month, times 8.5 years is 10,200.   So far, I am way ahead of the game.

 

Also, as far the original subject, as soon as you think this hooby is getting $$$, take alook at golf clubs.   Makes my 180 dollar sound equipped engine look pretty cheap.   Plus, it wont be out of date next year either.  

 

 

[Anonymous]

The best way to keep this hobby affordable is to buy only what you need.  Many of us, including me have bought way too many locomotives, freight cars, structures etc. on a whim.  I'm trying to limit my time frame to the early 1980's but I still have some steam locomotives and a bunch of rolling stock that would only be appropriate for the late 50s or early 60s.  I bought more structures than I can reasonably put on a 10' shelf layout.  Careful planning will save you a bunch of money and you will still get a lot of enjoyment out of the hobby.

[skiloff]

Here is my itemized list of stuff so far on my 3x9 N scale layout (in Cdn$). I decided to go with the most expensive track (Unitrack) because its bullet proof, easy for the kids to work with and easy to pull up when I inevitably construct a new layout. So, that automatically puts me way higher for my track costs than the average. OK, here we go:

Benchwork: $80 (1 sheet plywood ripped into 3" strips, 1 sheet of 1" foamboard, plus some scraps they were willing to give me)

Track: $450 (I haven't bought it all yet, but I know thats about what it will cost me).

Loco: $83 Kato SD40-2 (the new model)

Rolling Stock: $80 so far, we'll see how much more we get, but these are things you add one here, two there.

Buildings: Picked up several buildings at a swap meet, already built, for $5 each - $25. Not great, but they fill in some holes until I can afford nicer ones or can build nicer ones. The kids think they are great.

Electrical: Hard to say, I'm using my MRC 2500 power pack that I've had for about 12 years and I think I paid about $65 for it so we'll say that.

I haven't started scenery yet, but I don't need scenery to run trains. Total cost - $773 if my math is correct. BUT, had I not wanted the Unitrack for the above mentioned reasons, it would easily be $250 less for Atlas flex track and turnouts. So, thats $525 to go Atlas, $775 to go with Unitrack and I have a working 3x9 layout. Is that expensive?

[BRAKIE]

Paul said:

BTW, Athearn still makes the non-detailed locos of yesteryear at reasonable prices.  Why don't you buy them?  They have a bunch of locos under $50.  And if they don't have your road name, I guess you better learn how to paint & decal like I did.

========================================================

Sorry Paul,but the BB engines are hard to come by locally and on line except for the odd SD40-2 and S12  here there and yonder.Yes even the old F7,GP7 and other fat bodies are hard to find these days at any price-I do not count e bay because its not a B/M hobby shop or on line hobby shop but a auction site /dumping ground..Also the SW7,SW1000 and SW1500 are hard to find these days..The good news is the better looking BB RTR engines such as the F7 A/B GP38-2,GP40-2, and SD40-2 can be had  around $50-55.00 on line.The newer RTR units isn't that much higher in costs

Let's be fair and add the Atlas Trainman GP38-2 that can be had  around $53.00.

Now,let's look deeper at the other discounts. I have seen Atlas GP7s around $65.00,The ALCO switchers for $59.99,RS11s for $65.00..Other units from $69.00-99.00.

Would you believe that Atlas locomotives are cheaper then P2K at discount?

The Robber Baron prices are still out there IF one is willing to buy at those prices..However,smart shoppers will buy at the best possible prices.

Whoa! We are actually agreeing.