FJ and G wrote:You don't need to buy a lot of stuff to enjoy the hobby. A few boxcars, a switcher and some track. Fab the rest
Quote:Prototype railroads don't buy engines and cars to set around unused in a rail yard because they look nice. So why do model railroaders have to fill a closet with unbuilt kits? Along with operating my model railroad like the prototype, I try to justify expenditures for my HO equipment just as the prototype would.
Bravo! Excellent points!
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
MAbruce wrote: There seem to be two basic camps when this subject comes up: Camp One: The hobby is too expensive and it's getting worse. Camp Two: This hobby has always been expensive so get over it. I’ve come to the conclusion that both camps are right.
There seem to be two basic camps when this subject comes up:
Camp One: The hobby is too expensive and it's getting worse.
Camp Two: This hobby has always been expensive so get over it.
I’ve come to the conclusion that both camps are right.
Camp Three: My wife's hobby is even more costly and in fact, so are many others.
Money and value and time are all subject to personal interpretations. I spent about $150 bringing my Plywood Atlantic from brass snap track on a 4x8 to nickel silver on two 4x8s. My new layout has already cost me about $300. I haven't even finished the plans yet. Over time, if I was an avid bowler, playing five or six games a week, I'd have spent more. A single ski trip costs as much as I spend in a year on this hobby in a year. Its a matter of value. There is no good or bad value, only what you as an individual place on something. For example, in going through my late sister's home, there was a new in the box tank car. N scale. Meaningless to me as I play trains in HO. (note, I PLAY trains, yes, I've built some kits, but I am not up to being a super modeler yet) To a kid who has no money of his own, and an N scale layout, a new tank car for free would be as great as summer recess all year round.
So to answer the question, "Who can continue to pay for this hobby?" I would say everyone who wishes to. If it is too expensive, then work with what you've got. Griping about economics on here is as bad as messing up a project and cudakenning your BNSF boxcar with its roofwalk.
The profits from china goods are massive. It costs nothing to get stuff made there, the high prices go into the pockets of US train companies.
The hobby prices are closing stores weekly.
MABruce sez:
I agree with CNJ831 here. I did a very rough calculation (based on discounted prices) of a relatively simple 4x8 N-scale layout (plywood, code 80, 4 turnouts, 1 Atlas Diesel, 10 cars, a few structures, simple scenery) and I came up with roughly $700.00. Once you start getting more sophisticated (and/or larger), I can see how the price can easily jump into the thousands – even using discounted prices and relying on some scratchbuilding. That excludes the many hours of labor one would need to build it (assuming one already had all the skills needed to do it).
You spend $700 in the R/C aircraft world and for the most part you’re ready to go.
So what? How much did John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid cost in inflation adjusted dollars? Allen was working on the last version of the G&D for nearly 20 years prior to his death, so the cost was spread out. The only way a layout will cost you thousands up front would be if you had one built by a professional layout builder.
Many hours of labor? Sheesh, and I thought model railroading was supposed to be fun. I will grant you that some tasks are more enjoyable than others, but to refer to the whole enterprise as hours of labor makes it sound like a chore..
Andre
CurtMc wrote: The profits from china goods are massive. It costs nothing to get stuff made there, the high prices go into the pockets of US train companies. The hobby prices are closing stores weekly.
huh?
No economics lesons from me again until someone explains that one to me.
I really don't give a hoot what CNJ831 says, I do have a model railroad. It may only be 2 feet deep and only the length of the wall in my office. It has no mountians or valleys, in fact it is as flat as the homasote/plywood it sits on. But I get alot of joy out of my small, industrial switching layout. The old industrial area is detailed nicely, if I say so myself. I get my nose really close to the layout as I switch 40' rolling stock with my Tsunami equiped Heritage 0-8-0's and others.
It is the perfect model railroad .... for me. Maybe when I retire some day .....
This past spring I bought a new Honda CRF dirt bike .... mucho money for me. But, I am no more a woods racer than the guys with the used $1200 dirt bikes I go against.
I shoot clay targets. I use the same old pump shotgun that I use to shoot birds and rabbits, but I'm often on the clays range with people and their $3000 Italian shotguns. Despite what some of those old farts may say, I am every bit a part of the hobby as they are.
The time and money you spend on a hobby is a personal thing. I think you should have many varied interests in life. On the other hand, if you want a living, breathing monster of a layout that takes up an entire basement ..... that's cool, too. If you choose to spend a lifetime of spare time and money on a layout, more power to ya. And I sure am impressed with the work done by those people.
But, if you are going to look down your nose at people who do not have massive layouts, then you are not a hobby enthusiast, but one of those peculiar people that are made fun of behind their backs.
Greg
Andre is right. Do the math. I hate math and ya'll made me get the calculator out.
Let's start with a 15,000.00 layout when "finished." Let's say you worked on it, uh, make that enjoyed your hobby for 10 years. That's 1500 per year.
Divide that by 52 weeks and divide that by 4 hours a week and you have spent 7.21 per hour on your hobby, your pastime.
7 bucks an hour.
And that's just pulling figures out of the sky. It can be far more but it can sure be far less.
There are many ways to relax and have fun on this planet, few of them only cost 7.00 an hour. Call a psychiatrist and see what they charge for an hour of stress management.
I have a significant investment in model railroad equipment but I didn't buy it yesterday. I have accmulated this stuff over the past thirty years, a little at a time. We recently moved to a new basement (home) and I only have a plywood pacific with two race tracks and some sidings. I plan to have a large basement layout at some point in the future, but I can also enjoy the hobby right now.
I do not have a large budget for model railroading as my CFO (wife) and I have agreed to a monthly leisure (model railroading budget). At one time I was a major model railroading impulse buyer. I now have a master plan for my layout and aquire locomotives, rolling stock and structures according to my plan. I look for bargins on ebay, Internet, swap meets and my LHS, in accordance to my modeling plan.
I enjoy this hobby, not only the modeling but the model railroaders.
JIM
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
What do you mean " rich or retired" They are complete opposites. do you think you become rich when you retire? You're in for a shock. I do agree,somewhat, My first engine was a mantua 0-4-0 that was in kit form. Cost about $15.00 in 1950. I dont know how much inflation has gone up but this was a moderate priced engine at the time which had a crude drivetrain, no detail,no headlight, no provision for DCC, no sound etc. etc.
You can buy good runners today from IHC , even the Mantua Classics from Life Like are a good deal & they are DCC ready. It has been said " you get what you pay for" I do think the laser cut buildings are all on the high side.
Although prices have risen due to inflation and some of the newer technology, I think this is a very affordable hobby. If you have to have the latest releases and technology, buy exclusively RTR equipment, and pay MSRP, the cost is staggering. There are many alternatives to saving money in this hobby. Despite the campaign to support the LHS, most equipment can be purchased well below MSRP through online dealers and some LHSs.Walthers has always priced their wares at MSRP and despite them having a vast inventory of supplies, there are many cottage industries and other suppliers - some of whom have a true love for the hobby - that price their products so that the common man can afford them.
Kit and scratch building are money-saving alternatives to RTR. Not only is scratch building enjoyable to do but it allows you to build a unique model compared to the garden-variety of look-alike RTR equipment (nothing wrong with RTR - my locos and rolling stock trucks are all in this form). There are also a lot of common household objects that can be used in modeling.
There are also arts and crafts stores that carry styrene, stripwood, structual components, paints, and other scratch building supplies at a fraction of the cost of a dedicated hobby shop.Quality craft paints, both solvent and water-based, that are available in craft shops and discount stores and are sometimes an excellent and low-cost alternative to dedicated model railroad paints.
Making stuff in China still costs peanuts. Prices going up are not because of costs there just more profit for the US company which blames those costs and people believe them
Sort of like the oil companies say the price of crude is why their profits are so high it is all just a big game but it works because people believe them.
HEdward wrote: CurtMc wrote: The profits from china goods are massive. It costs nothing to get stuff made there, the high prices go into the pockets of US train companies. The hobby prices are closing stores weekly. huh? No economics lesons from me again until someone explains that one to me.
This hobby is one of the most affordable EXCEPT for those that have to have it ALL NOW.
What ever happened to doing things a little at a time?
The layout I am working on now covers 2200 sq ft. I did not just purchase all of it yesterday. I have been in this hobby all of my life. So the cost has been spread out over 45 years or so.
I just can’t understand why everyone today has to have it all right now!
Good things come to those that wait, only because you are spending a little at a time instead of a LOT all at once!
BOB H – Clarion, PA
CurtMc wrote: Making stuff in China still costs peanuts. Prices going up are not because of costs there just more profit for the US company which blames those costs and people believe them Sort of like the oil companies say the price of crude is why their profits are so high it is all just a big game but it works because people believe them. HEdward wrote: CurtMc wrote: The profits from china goods are massive. It costs nothing to get stuff made there, the high prices go into the pockets of US train companies. The hobby prices are closing stores weekly. huh? No economics lesons from me again until someone explains that one to me.
Display layout in economic logic!
Oil company profits are not actually at all time highs when you look at the profit margin. And since when is profit a swear word anyway? If Walther's retail prices are so high, then why are the LHSs having trouble? Our hobby has traditionally had very resilient properties. I've purchased one F-b unit and one Mogul in the past five years. Other than the Danbury RR Museum rolling stock, I've bought three USED freight cars and TWO used passenger cars in that time. The only reason I even bought so much track for the last layout was that the brass track was stored in a damp basement and took way too much effort to clean up. The best thing for you to do if you like your LHS is to show off your layout and spark interest in the hobby in others. Don't blame low labor cost in China for high prices here. If there wasn't a market for $1,000 Big Boys in HO, then they wouldn't make them, anywhere. The train store in Lebanon PA is only open part time. How can he pay the rent? I don't know. Maybe he owns the building outright. I never asked. The point is that the business world is always changing. Look at the MR advertisers. Tons of stuff at near cost. The LHS needs return business, but if even a cheap Bachman loco can run for 35 years, how is he going to get that business? There is no simple answer, but remember, if a company isn't in business to MAKE a profit, then there wouldn't be a business.
andrechapelon wrote:So what? How much did John Allen's Gorre & Daphetid cost in inflation adjusted dollars? Allen was working on the last version of the G&D for nearly 20 years prior to his death, so the cost was spread out. The only way a layout will cost you thousands up front would be if you had one built by a professional layout builder.
So do you know how much John Allen actually spent on his layout? And how much of that cost was he able to spread out? Just checking - since you just used it as an example... I certainly don't.
I never suggested that MRR is not fun. I was only comparing the labor requirements of this hobby to others like RC Airplanes. But now that you brought it up, I think one of the other issues this hobby faces (besides cost) is that it fails to satisfy a culture that is seeking instant gratification. I personally like putting in the time to build something, but many others don't. They want plug-and-play.
CurtMc wrote: Making stuff in China still costs peanuts. Prices going up are not because of costs there just more profit for the US company which blames those costs and people believe them Sort of like the oil companies say the price of crude is why their profits are so high it is all just a big game but it works because people believe them.
Like others have said before, there are many factors that go into how much a model RR product costs, not just how cheap it may be to assemble the product itself. Like it or not, companies are in business to make a profit, but I don't think anyone in the MR business is on the Fortune 500 list (I could be wrong, though). As others have suggested, if it is true that MR companies are price-gouging their customers, then someone could make a killing by going into the MR business and underselling everyone else.
Does it really cost "peanuts" to manufacture anything in China - especially today since they have experienced rapid growth in industry and standard of living over the past 10-15 years? What are the real costs involved with getting that Bachmann Spectrum loco from the factory in China into your hands?
I suggest that some real financial market research is in order before making any sweeping generalizations about conspiracy theories of MR executives living high on the hog at the expense of John Q. Modeler (ditto for criticizing oil company profits, for that matter).
Stepping off the
JBSteamer wrote:... Demand drives up the prices! When I first started flying (60s) things were a lot cheaper. You could buy a Sterman biplane for $5000. Today that same airplane would bring around 100 grand!!
JB, you are right, demand does have something to do with prices, but I suspect it's not as big a factor in brand-new MR products as one might think. It would be more of a factor in older products that are no longer in production (see eBay). That's why the Stearman was so inexpensive in the 60's as compared with the astronomical price today. How many more airworthy Stearmans were available in the 60's as compared to today. Also, the point was made earlier that Americans have more disposable income nowadays, so they can afford to shell out a relatively larger amount of money for things like vintage Stearmans. So in this case, the price increase does not reflect simple inflation, but is more of a function of supply & demand.
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor
While I don't know the exact number, I know it was mentioned many times over the years that John Allen spent very little on commercial products. Pretty much everything, other than some of his locos, was scratchbuilt. He even made his own figures, shaping and carving wax over wire armatures!
I know that I am financially better off than most people, but, honestly, when I read some of these threads I am left with the impression that the average modeler is eating out of dumpsters and living under bridges!
David
OK I have a deal for you. I will pay for your model railroad and all it costs you is the major 30,000 mile tune up on my car.
What a deal, trains, track, scenery, building materials. And All it costs you is the major 30,000 mile tune up on my car.
Oh yea the car is a 1988 Ferrari Testarossa and the tuneup is ONLY $30,000.00
See it is all in what you CHOSE to spend your money on. Remeber that this is a HOBBY, not you LIFES WORK. A John Allen switching puzzle will keep you going for years. My neighbors son wants to buy my Porsche in the worst way. Saves every sent he can, does not waste money on other hobbies, he wants that car. Sad thing is after he gets the car he will not be ablle to afford the insurance, maintenance (he does not do any auto work) or the speeding tickets. Kid + 185mph top speed = 300+hp= TICKET.
You have a choice to either pay for what you CAN AFFORD and enjoy it OR complain that you can not afford anything and be upset. Me when times where bad and $5.00 was a lot of money I FOUND ways to make the $2.50 item look like a $5.00 item.
DavidH wrote: While I don't know the exact number, I know it was mentioned many times over the years that John Allen spent very little on commercial products. Pretty much everything, other than some of his locos, was scratchbuilt. He even made his own figures, shaping and carving wax over wire armatures! I know that I am financially better off than most people, but, honestly, when I read some of these threads I am left with the impression that the average modeler is eating out of dumpsters and living under bridges! David
Living under a bridge would be a luxury for me. I spent the past week on my in-laws sofa.
Couple other things to point out: first, John Allen didn't spend all that much on his layout perhaps because there was not the wealth of ready-made products available back then. When you are forced to scratchbuild or somehow otherwise create a lot of your layout, expenses can be relatively low.
Plus I wanted to mention something else about the manufacturers and the "price gouging." Anyone in the hobby sees Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers, etc as BIG companies. But remember in the general business climate, those companies are actually tiny. They are only big in our little hobby, not in the real world. I think some of you would be quite surprised to hear how small some of the production runs are for our trains and when you factor in all the expenses of R&D, die making etc (as has been mentioned) it all adds up fast for a limited market.
It took me getting into the evil LHS business to figure that out myself, and I realize as part of the price-gouging conspiracy what I say here will have little effect...but remember these three words: priorities, compromise and perspective. And as my parents and the Rolling Stones told me a 1000 times growing up, You Can't Always Get What You Want.