Who can continue to pay for this hobby?

[boxcar_jim]

There are some great posts in this thread! It strikes me if you want to buy lots of RTR stuff this hobby has always been pretty darn expensive, in relative terms. Thats why lots of older modellers build "craftsman" kits and scratchbuild - its half the fun - and cost a lot less.

I would never purchase tracks from Peco with the price the company demands. And Walthers prices -- on nearly every item -- are skyhigh. Is there a move here to limit the development of our hobby to only those who work for the wealthy?

I just like to say a word or two about Peco. Peco are suffering a double whammy here. First off they are a Britsh company, manufactuered here in good ol' Blighty - I know I've been to the factory - so their manufacturing costs are higher than those who have outsourced to China. For us UK modellers Peco is (relatively) cheap - now they have the code 75 & 83 ranges I don't use anything else.

At present the GB pound is riding high against the US dollar (around £1 = $1.80) - thats great for me importing American models to the UK, but really bad for the likes of Peco exporting the other way. Second, they are distributed in the US by Walthers - who have never exactly been known for under pricing.  

[ho doctor]

I am also on a fixed income. I drool over the "Wish Books", also. With this forum and others, I am now more knowledgable about what I need in this hobby. I have been nuts about trains since I was helping them switch in Burwynn, Il., when I was about three years old. When I came back into model trains in 2003, I had a lot of  Tyco & Bachman engines and cars and started building with sectional track & snap switches. By investing in my "perfect" layout a little at a time, I can start building pretty soon. I, too, found a PMI T1 (refurbashed). I could not afford a new one, but, this one I couldn't pass up. It's a beauty!!

I don't think that this hobby is overpriced. Also, you get what you pay for!! And, if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to pay for it. I love this hobby because I can eventually build it my way, and have fun while doing it. And saying  "I DID IT MYSELF"!!

[james saunders]

There are some great posts in this thread! It strikes me if you want to buy lots of RTR stuff this hobby has always been pretty darn expensive, in relative terms. Thats why lots of older modellers build "craftsman" kits and scratchbuild - its half the fun - and cost a lot less.

I would never purchase tracks from Peco with the price the company demands. And Walthers prices -- on nearly every item -- are skyhigh. Is there a move here to limit the development of our hobby to only those who work for the wealthy?

I just like to say a word or two about Peco. Peco are suffering a double whammy here. First off they are a Britsh company, manufactuered here in good ol' Blighty - I know I've been to the factory - so their manufacturing costs are higher than those who have outsourced to China. For us UK modellers Peco is (relatively) cheap - now they have the code 75 & 83 ranges I don't use anything else.

At present the GB pound is riding high against the US dollar (around £1 = $1.80) - thats great for me importing American models to the UK, but really bad for the likes of Peco exporting the other way. Second, they are distributed in the US by Walthers - who have never exactly been known for under pricing.  

I can buy my Peco turnouts here in OZ for $A26 very cheap, a atlas snap switch is $25 a Shinohara code 70 switch is $39, in short, peco are about the cheapest turnout my 17 year old hands can get me, and IMO THE best. I don't mind paying for quality, Eg: i recently payed $130 for a P2K GP38-2, ($A) why? because I don't mind paying for quality! I also plan on buying a few BB kits and walthers kits because they are cheap, but good I will also continue to buy RTR rollingstock to build my fleet.

[vsmith]

I've been around this silly hobby for 30 of my 40 years and honestly dont see this at all, sure it can be expensive, but IT ALWAYS HAS BEEN, especially when adjusted for inflation.

 

A new high end  lokie $400 today was still considered very expensive at $100 in the 70's

 

Dont forget that in 1970 the average new home was $30,000, today that average is $300,000 a ten-fold increase. If you use that analogy that 1970's $100 lokie should be closer to $1000, if its only $400, then that could be read that increased manufacturing abilities are producing a better running and better detail engine today, for less money when adjusted for inflation.

 

I remember buying blue box engines for $15 in the 70's, that was a big chunk of change for a kid back then! Yet that same engine could be found new today for what? $60? over 30 years? Thats not that bad.

 

I'm doing large scale, have 40 engines, 30 cars, and the engines I payed more than $75 for I can count on one hand. This is cheap compared RC, want to spend real money? try flying, any motorized watersport, or this: joining a HD motorcycle club, those guys spend some serious $$.

 

 

[Don Gibson]

Prices too high? 

You can always build from scratch - or can you? (That's how this hobby started). An engine kit, plus a block of wood with printed paper sides  Most costs are for Labor. Right now, Chinese will work cheaper than Americans will. How much is your time worth? and What skills do you have?

Find a cheaper hobby: Collect Baseball cards, stamps, cars, - Girls - but better hurry. Prices are going up everywhere - including China.

''You can tell men from the boys by the price of their toys" - Confucious?

[Tommy0218]

I have to agree with Charlie on this

[ARTHILL]

I could never afford this hobby until now, so it must be cheaper than it used to be. I agree, I can't afford a collection of 500 brass steamers, but I am happy that someone can.

 

Per hour of enjoyment, it is chaper than golf, fishing, and camping, yes I have a motorhome. For $400, I can run a great train for hours everyday for years to come, I hope.

[vsmith]

May I suggest some other hobbies?

 

RC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG_d0yLNxRA

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqvjALs_n0

ps: that jet engine is $1200 alone!

 

Motorcylces

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQl9HGWFrS4

 

and my personal fav: Mountain biking:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67KvrCL8Az8&mode=related&search=

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWV4lKbiGGU&mode=related&search=

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B76_xIOrLI&mode=related&search=

 

Only Mtn Bikers would be stupid ‘nuf to try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLhLRO3Muvc&mode=related&search=

 

 

[andrechapelon]

Many ads in MRR magazines reflect the high costs involved with this hoppy. Some box cars going for as much as $39.00, locomotives as high as $400. Flex track for $3.50 each, turn outs up to $20. It seems to me the RR modeling industry is working hard to price the common man out of the hobby.

I would never purchase tracks from Peco with the price the company demands. And Walthers prices -- on nearly every item -- are skyhigh. Is there a move here to limit the development of our hobby to only those who work for the wealthy?

Many MRR items are made in China, where labor costs are very low, yet purchase prices are very high, and continue to rise. It appears the manufactures are inflating the product costs, thus deflating my urge to spend money on their products.

I still have many MRR items purchased decades ago that look just fine -- as realistic as those made today. Flea markets are an excellent place to spend on's cash on used RR items.

Some items produced today are greatly improved and should cost a few dollars more, but not three or four times more. How can anyone afford to stay in this hobby?

What would MRR manufactures do if we all decided to stop buying for six months or for a year? Raise the price, I'm sure. The excuse: They're losing money!

Am I on the right track with my thinking?

GGB

Pricing the common man out of the market? Oh yeah, that's a brilliant strategy for an industry to follow. Actually, given the small size of the hobby, I'm not even sure that you could call it the common man's hobby. There are more golfers than model railroaders and that (as others have noted) is an extremely expensive hobby to have.

As for the China complaint, the assembly costs of these models is not where the major cost lies, it's in the design and tooling. However, it would appear that many people think that PCM, BLI, Walthers P2K, et. al. are buying  model railroad items for pennies from China and then reselling them for vast multiples of their actual costs. IOW, there's a considerable body of massively misinformed opinion that is convinced that vast profits are being made at our expense. What a crock!! There are no T Boone Pickens's, Carl Icahns, Bill Gates's, Michael Dells, Warren Buffetts, etc. who made their billions in the model railroad industry. Even if it were possible to be the sole supplier of every model rr item sold in the country, you still wouldn't make it to the Forbes list of the 100 richest Americans.

There is no mass market for model railroad items the way there is for automobiles, TV's, refrigerators, etc. Therefore, there are no econmies of scale that can be enjoyed by any manufacturer because production runs are numbered in the hundreds or thousands of units, not millions. Products have to be priced accordingly. Even at that, inflation adjusted prices are no worse than they were when I was a kid. A Varney standard Pacific kit, w/o tender was about $50 in 1950. THAT was expensive. A $400 MSRP DCC and sound equipped loco of today is cheap in comparison (even if you actually pay MSRP).

I probably shouldn't reply to this type of whine because facts don't change anyone's opinion. I can rememeber when my mother bought hamburger for 25 cents a pound and my parents bought a brand new car (not nearly as safe and well equipped as today's models) for around $3,000. They also paid $18,000 for a 3 BR, 2 BA house in 1958.  That same house, in its same location would go for over $450,000 (25 time its original price) today, and it's a POS California tract home. And you think you got problems paying for the hobby?

Andre

[rrinker]

 Is that the model B-52 crashing? That was sad. All that work, and all because they wanted to get it on TV and it was clearly too windy...

 This is why my RC plane is a $30 Aero Ace LOL. It flies, after a fashion, and is pretty nearly indestructible. And did I mention only $30?

                                    --Randy

[CNJ831]

For those of you so proud to suggest the supposed high price of other hobbies compared to model railroading, stop for just a second and consider this. In the case of R/C aircraft, cars, or ships, when you buy them at the going retail price of say $300-$700 per, you go home with a complete and fully operational example of that hobby's ultimate goal. Buy a $400 locomotive and all you have a $400 static display item. Build even a modest-sized, detailed layout to run that locomotive on and you'll likely spend $10,000-$15,000 without purchasing any other motive power or rolling stock (many of us have invested $25,000-$50,000 and more). You can spend less but what you'll likely end up with is nothing more than a glorified train set of the same level of sophistication as kids in the 1950's had in a Christmastime Lionel set up...not a true model railroad. So...if we are to make comparisons in cost, how about comparing apples with apples.

While this hobby, in its fullest development, may never have been cheap, today it is far, far more expensive than at any time since before WWII and that can indeed be demonstrated conclusively.

CNJ831 

[brothaslide]

Soldier,

I understand your frustration.  The reality is that there are enough people out there willing to pay the increased prices.  As long as the manufactureres have enough customers who will pay the prices, they will continue to charge what the market will bear.

Be greatful that you are not faced with a home purchase in California.  Now that's expensive!

[grayfox1119]

I just bought 5 cars at one of my LHS's today, two Roundhouse models were $12,50 RTR, an Intermountain for $26.50 RTR, and two Athearns for $13.50 RTR. Considering that the cost of living has risen exponentially since the late 50's, I do not consider these prices that bad at all.

[brothaslide]

For those of you so proud to suggest the supposed high price of other hobbies compared to model railroading, stop for just a second and consider this. In the case of R/C aircraft, cars, or ships, when you buy them at the going retail price of say $300-$700 per, you go home with a complete and fully operational example of that hobby's ultimate goal. Buy a $400 locomotive and all you have a $400 static display item. Build even a modest-sized, detailed layout to run that locomotive on and you'll likely spend $10,000-$15,000 without purchasing any other motive power or rolling stock (many of us have invested $25,000-$50,000 and more). You can spend less but what you'll likely end up with is nothing more than a glorified train set of the same level of sophistication as kids in the 1950's had in a Christmastime Lionel set up...not a true model railroad. So...if we are to make comparisons in cost, how about comparing apples with apples.

While this hobby, in its fullest development, may never have been cheap, today it is far, far more expensive than at any time since before WWII and that can indeed be demonstrated conclusively.

CNJ831 

Wait a minute CNJ831 - Are you telling all of us that the to get a decent layout will cost us between $10,000 to $15,000?  Sorry - I don't agree with that.  Additionaly, your comment about spending less and ending up with a "glorified train set" seems to be from a limited financial perspective not shared by many.

Let's find ways to encourage guys like Soldier.  I know there are a lot of savy and frugel modelers out there who have assembled fantastic layouts.

[andrechapelon]

For those of you so proud to suggest the supposed high price of other hobbies compared to model railroading, stop for just a second and consider this. In the case of R/C aircraft, cars, or ships, when you buy them at the going retail price of say $300-$700 per, you go home with a complete and fully operational example of that hobby's ultimate goal. Buy a $400 locomotive and all you have a $400 static display item. Build even a modest-sized, detailed layout to run that locomotive on and you'll likely spend $10,000-$15,000 without purchasing any other motive power or rolling stock (many of us have invested $25,000-$50,000 and more). You can spend less but what you'll likely end up with is nothing more than a glorified train set of the same level of sophistication as kids in the 1950's had in a Christmastime Lionel set up...not a true model railroad. So...if we are to make comparisons in cost, how about comparing apples with apples.

While this hobby, in its fullest development, may never have been cheap, today it is far, far more expensive than at any time since before WWII and that can indeed be demonstrated conclusively.

CNJ831 

 

What's your point? That price is spread out over time. Did you pay $25-50K up front for a layout? You can't buy a car one piece at a time, but you can end out with a nice layout paid for essentially one piece at a time.

Come to think of it, there was an article a number of years ago (Car and Driver, I think) about buying a VW bug (the old one) one piece at a time. IIRC, the title of the article was "The $30,000 Volkswagen" or something like that.

Andre

[FJ and G]

You don't need to buy a lot of stuff to enjoy the hobby. A few boxcars, a switcher and some track. Fab the rest

[Railphotog]

 In the case of R/C aircraft, cars, or ships, when you buy them at the going retail price of say $300-$700 per, you go home with a complete and fully operational example of that hobby's ultimate goal.

In the case of R/C aircraft, one bad landing and you've got a $300-700 pile of pieces!  This doesn't happen very often in model railroading!

How about the price of an ATV? A snowmobile? A boat?   These toys aren't cheap, and come with a whole lot of necessities to be able to use them - a trailer, special protective clothing, and they have to be bought all at once to be used! And they all need $3.00 plus a gallon GAS!   Think these hobbies are cheap?   Model railroading is pennies when compared! 

Bob Boudreau

[johncolley]

Please note: there may be a big difference between "retired" and "super rich"! An awful lot of retired folks only have Social Security and some may have a small additional pension. We have to plan and budget our hobby spending and sometimes save a year to buy one particular item, on the rest we make do with maybe partial scenery, cardstock mockups of buildings we would eventually like to do, smaller trains, etc. Or we get into a group or club and contribute with our abilities. But we don't give up our hobby! Happy railroading! jc5729

[andrechapelon]

I guess in my mind if it were true that the MRR industry is just unreasonably jacking up prices then it seems to me the market is perfect for some individual or group to mortgage their homes and start up a business.  Those guys should be able to make a mint!

Boy that's the truth!

If it's possible to really sell stuff cheaper, then someone stands to make a fortune by entering the market and underselling all these overpriced outlets ... they would corner the market.

 

Hey Joe, the wife and I have a piece of waterfront property we're selling and it's under contract with a September 8th close. How's about we go into business undercutting the likes of Walthers, Athearn, BLI and such?

What this hobby really needs is a $200 Big Boy

Andre

 

 

[Tommy0218]

May I suggest some other hobbies?

 

RC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nG_d0yLNxRA

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmqvjALs_n0

ps: that jet engine is $1200 alone!

 

Motorcylces

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQl9HGWFrS4

 

and my personal fav: Mountain biking:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67KvrCL8Az8&mode=related&search=

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWV4lKbiGGU&mode=related&search=

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B76_xIOrLI&mode=related&search=

 

Only Mtn Bikers would be stupid ‘nuf to try this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLhLRO3Muvc&mode=related&search=

 

 

That r/c jet must have been quite painful for the pilot ! That's the nice thing about trains - You never have to worry about one disintegrating!!

[jeffshultz]

I've developed a pretty simple way of affording my hobby - I'm back in the Army Reserves (about $230/mo for 2 days after taxes and whatnot) and since my favorite LTS is between me and my drill location, I get to spend ~$40 there once a month. A couple times a year I get to participate in "Summer Camp" or "Annual Training" - in my job it isn't a straight two weeks but is broken up into two or three sections.

Since I'm taking vacation time from work to do this, all that Army money is gravy.... hopefully the week in August will pay for the wireless system and throttle(s) for my EasyDCC system.

[rrebell]

To vsmith, $300,000.00 for a house, cheap, were I live try $1,500,000.00 and we are talking a average house. For you others this hobby can be as cheap or as expencive as you want. An idea for those of you with skills in scratch building or kit building get with someone with lots of kits and no time and trade, many a modeler I know has kits they realy don't want and would love to have kits they want built . Also A well built Ambroid kit will go from $30.00 to $50.00 bucks on ebay but can be had in kit form for as little as $5.00 bucks. Keep an eye out for bargins and go to swap meets, one I went to last year someone had switched out all their Kadee #5's for anouther type and were selling them for 10 cents a pair, he had 100 pair so me and my train buddy don't have that expence anymore. The key is patence, it all goes on sale at some point!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vsmith]

To vsmith, $300,000.00 for a house, cheap, were I live try $1,500,000.00 and we are talking a average house. For you others this hobby can be as cheap or as expencive as you want. An idea for those of you with skills in scratch building or kit building get with someone with lots of kits and no time and trade, many a modeler I know has kits they realy don't want and would love to have kits they want built . Also A well built Ambroid kit will go from $30.00 to $50.00 bucks on ebay but can be had in kit form for as little as $5.00 bucks. Keep an eye out for bargins and go to swap meets, one I went to last year someone had switched out all their Kadee #5's for anouther type and were selling them for 10 cents a pair, he had 100 pair so me and my train buddy don't have that expence anymore. The key is patence, it all goes on sale at some point!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeez where do you live,  Malibu? I feel your pain, I was using national average, here in CA the average is $500K, imagine my shock when we refi-ed and the appraisor told us our little shack in the unfashionable end of the city was worth almost $600K! No wonder no one has moved off our street, got nowhere to move to!

[trainfreek92]

I am 13 and dont have a job and am building a N scale model Railroad. My engines are mostly Atlas. If I had a job My layout would definetly get done faster but... I am going to split my money into groups to hopefully have more money. I will always buy MR stuff. You cant take the money with you can you. (Boss Hogg treid though lol in no the said that in the show sometime or another) And you only live once. I shoveled snow to pay for my trains last winter and plan to do so again this year along with allowance cleaning cars for my Dad he owns a car lot,and gifts. Someone remined me to buy a Model Railroad Company when I am older. Tim

[tstage]

To vsmith, $300,000.00 for a house, cheap, were I live try $1,500,000.00 and we are talking a average house. For you others this hobby can be as cheap or as expencive as you want. An idea for those of you with skills in scratch building or kit building get with someone with lots of kits and no time and trade, many a modeler I know has kits they realy don't want and would love to have kits they want built . Also A well built Ambroid kit will go from $30.00 to $50.00 bucks on ebay but can be had in kit form for as little as $5.00 bucks. Keep an eye out for bargins and go to swap meets, one I went to last year someone had switched out all their Kadee #5's for anouther type and were selling them for 10 cents a pair, he had 100 pair so me and my train buddy don't have that expence anymore. The key is patence, it all goes on sale at some point!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jeez where do you live,  Malibu? I feel your pain, I was using national average, here in CA the average is $500K, imagine my shock when we refi-ed and the appraisor told us our little shack in the unfashionable end of the city was worth almost $600K! No wonder no one has moved off our street, got nowhere to move to!

Larry and Victor,

You guys should come to NE Ohio.  You can get a good size mansion and a beautiful piece of country for the prices that you two are dropping.  I think the Van Swerigen brother's (the NYC moguls) mansion is still for sale and would be in your price range.

Tom

[skiloff]

The thing about the R/C planes, too, is how many guys do you know that build one kit and just fly it and never do anything else but fly that plane? Not too many, I'd wager. My brother-in-law does it and he had, at last count, about 8 or 9 of them. And as someone mentioned, one false move and you've just lost your $700 plane.

As for costs going up, well, I remember my first N scale "high quality" engine I bought back in 1989. It was $90 and my father thought I was nuts. I just purchased a new Kato SD40-2 for $75. Wanna venture a guess as to which runs better? The old one does not even compare. Better quality and less money. I'd say that is a good thing.

[CNJ831]

 In the case of R/C aircraft, cars, or ships, when you buy them at the going retail price of say $300-$700 per, you go home with a complete and fully operational example of that hobby's ultimate goal.

In the case of R/C aircraft, one bad landing and you've got a $300-700 pile of pieces!  This doesn't happen very often in model railroading!

How about the price of an ATV? A snowmobile? A boat?   These toys aren't cheap, and come with a whole lot of necessities to be able to use them - a trailer, special protective clothing, and they have to be bought all at once to be used! And they all need $3.00 plus a gallon GAS!   Think these hobbies are cheap?   Model railroading is pennies when compared! 

Bob (and others responding in the same way), the ATVs, snowmobiles, R/C aircraft, cars, and ships, are all examples of items that can be considered a self contained examples of a hobby...you need only buy one to fully participate in that hobby. Spend the same $300-$700 on that one locomotive and all you have is an expensive mantlepiece display item. You must expend thousands more to create the realistic enviroment to run it in. Big difference!

CNJ831

[CNJ831]

Wait a minute CNJ831 - Are you telling all of us that the to get a decent layout will cost us between $10,000 to $15,000?  Sorry - I don't agree with that.  Additionaly, your comment about spending less and ending up with a "glorified train set" seems to be from a limited financial perspective not shared by many.

Let's find ways to encourage guys like Soldier.  I know there are a lot of savy and frugel modelers out there who have assembled fantastic layouts.

Brotha - I'm sorry that you disagree but that doesn't change the facts. I've been around a long time and can't recall ever seeing a first class layout done on the cheap. Even a finished and reasonably detailed  4x8 will run at least several thousand dollars, even if you cut every corner possible! Small, newbie, plywood pacifics can be done for less but I honestly don't regard them a examples of model railroads. Even MR has admitted repeatedly in print that completed layouts run $50-$100 per square foot. It's a fact that something in the range of a 15x20 will go into the tens of thousands of dollars before its complete to any level of sophistication.

I suspect that if the dozen or so folks here who have indicated through posted images of having built quality layouts were to tell you just how much they've spent getting there, you and most others on this forum would be stunned or horrified!

CNJ831

[cmrproducts]

Soldier

Speaking about the cost of items being produced in China, I suppose that shipping them across the Ocean is FREE?

I hear this crying about the cost of the Hobby all the time at the LHS and then I just listen to them and in the next breath say about their newest (BOAT, 4 WHEELER, GUNS, CAR, SUV, TRUCK, the kids 4 WHEELERS, MOTORCYCLES, etc.) yet they can’t figure out why the cost of model railroading is so much.

It all depends where YOUR priorities are!  IS it TRAINS or is it that other useless junk??

Either get your priorities straight or quit complaining!

I did a long time ago.  I learned to go to the Train Shows/E-bay/On line stores and finally get involved with a LHS.  Problem solved!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[MAbruce]

 In the case of R/C aircraft, cars, or ships, when you buy them at the going retail price of say $300-$700 per, you go home with a complete and fully operational example of that hobby's ultimate goal.

In the case of R/C aircraft, one bad landing and you've got a $300-700 pile of pieces!  This doesn't happen very often in model railroading!

How about the price of an ATV? A snowmobile? A boat?   These toys aren't cheap, and come with a whole lot of necessities to be able to use them - a trailer, special protective clothing, and they have to be bought all at once to be used! And they all need $3.00 plus a gallon GAS!   Think these hobbies are cheap?   Model railroading is pennies when compared! 

Bob (and others responding in the same way), the ATVs, snowmobiles, R/C aircraft, cars, and ships, are all examples of items that can be considered a self contained examples of a hobby...you need only buy one to fully participate in that hobby. Spend the same $300-$700 on that one locomotive and all you have is an expensive mantlepiece display item. You must expend thousands more to create the realistic enviroment to run it in. Big difference!

CNJ831

I agree with CNJ831 here.  I did a very rough calculation (based on discounted prices) of a relatively simple 4x8 N-scale layout (plywood, code 80, 4 turnouts, 1 Atlas Diesel, 10 cars, a few structures, simple scenery) and I came up with roughly $700.00.  Once you start getting more sophisticated (and/or larger), I can see how the price can easily jump into the thousands – even using discounted prices and relying on some scratchbuilding.  That excludes the many hours of labor one would need to build it (assuming one already had all the skills needed to do it).

You spend $700 in the R/C aircraft world and for the most part you’re ready to go.