BRAKIE wrote:Gumby4,I don't think $10.00 in 1956 is $74.95 in todays market..$10.00 back in the 50s would by a lot of stuff.$74.95 won't buy much today at full MRSP.I suspect it would buy 2 pair of Lee jeans though.Back in 56 you could buy a good use late model car for $50.00 now a good use late model car will cost around $8,500-14,000 plus interest rate for the loan..Back in 1956 Athearn cars was 99 cents,you could buy a Tenshado GP7 for $21.95..How about a United AT&SF 2-8-0 for $34.95? Calculators isn't the best way to compare prices in the 50 to today..Even the cost of living was cheaper back then.
Gumby4,I don't think $10.00 in 1956 is $74.95 in todays market..$10.00 back in the 50s would by a lot of stuff.$74.95 won't buy much today at full MRSP.I suspect it would buy 2 pair of Lee jeans though.Back in 56 you could buy a good use late model car for $50.00 now a good use late model car will cost around $8,500-14,000 plus interest rate for the loan..Back in 1956 Athearn cars was 99 cents,you could buy a Tenshado GP7 for $21.95..How about a United AT&SF 2-8-0 for $34.95?
Calculators isn't the best way to compare prices in the 50 to today..Even the cost of living was cheaper back then.
Actually, Brakie, Gumby is pretty correct. I plugged the $10 figure into a couple of online inflation calculators (using actual data from 1956-2006) and the range was $73.73 - 75.10, so he is DEAD nuts on. This is based on the CPI (consumer price index) which in 1956 was 27.3-27.6; currently it is 203.5. The average car (new) at the time cost ~$2500; this would equate to ~$18500 today. The average (median) yearly income ranged from $2400-3600, depending on where you get your data. This equates to $18000-26500 in today's dollars. In 2004, the US median income was $44389.
So, it seems to me, that while certain items have become over priced (e.g brass & some locomotives) we (the average Amercian) also have a lot more disposable income in the US than we did about 50 years ago...
Brian
Figure house payment /rent-$400-800.00 a month gas for 2 cars @ 287.9gal,Lee jeans 24.99,a case of pop $5.99,humburger$2.99 pound etc.I still don't believe such malarkey that the Feds put out..BY observation at the clubs and train shows I think the Feds and their cohorts are way off Base considering house and car payments for the AVERAGE WORKING AMERICAN and not the 65,000/year upper middle class.More disposable income in the US? Only in the minds of the Feds.
As far as that use car remember folks a new car was $1200.00 today a like car will be $24-30,000 with payments in the 300s.
Back to topic.Thankfully we have a price buster-our computers..Use it.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Lynn
Present Layout progress
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/11/p/290127/3372174.aspx#3372174
Well, 600 dollars for the electronics (DCC and power supply) 1000 dollars for the motive power and another 500 for the rolling stock plus 400 or so in structures.
**Taps calculator...$2500. Over 2 years and not yet into scenery, track and switches. Those are one time costs. Once you have the items, you can make them last a long time.
But Im having fun this year! Are ye?
BRAKIE wrote: Figure house payment /rent-$400-800.00 a month gas for 2 cars @ 287.9gal,Lee jeans 24.99,a case of pop $5.99,humburger$2.99 pound etc.I still don't believe such malarkey that the Feds put out..BY observation at the clubs and train shows I think the Feds and their cohorts are way off Base considering house and car payments for the AVERAGE WORKING AMERICAN and not the 65,000/year upper middle class.More disposable income in the US? Only in the minds of the Feds. As far as that use car remember folks a new car was $1200.00 today a like car will be $24-30,000 with payments in the 300s. Back to topic.Thankfully we have a price buster-our computers..Use it.
I mean no offense, because I am going to take issue with your post, Brakie. Please hear me out...
You included a case of pop in your list of ostensibly needed items. To me, that is unthinkable. Juice, maybe, milk for sure, but good old tea and tap water are better than the others..no calories and little cost. Brand name jeans? Why? Ego and vanity. Did we spend money on flat panel LCD televsions sets, MP3 players, DVDs, video rentals, professional hockey jerseys, season's tickets to football, lottery tickets (I'm gonna barf!), power washers, power mowers, a new bar-b-que every three or four years, ...I could go on? No, few things like that were available, and our lives were so much less cluttered therby.
I recall George Carlin's comedic presentation where he talks about our modern penchant for "stuff". We build bigger houses so that we can store more and more "stuff".
The reason we have all this "stuff" is because the majority of us:a. want it; and b. can aquire it with disposable income. Where is this disposable income? It comes by way of the interest most of us pay on our credit. If you can't pay your interest, you don't have the credit.
If one buys without resorting to credit, one is wise, but one still has income. If one buys items not needed to survive, one has disposable income.
A small sampling of homes in any borough in any N. American city greater than, say, 50,000 will clearly show that most of us make more money than we need, and that is evinced in the items stored, unused or used, what George would call "stuff".
We all make our choices and allowances. Blaming others for perceived roadblocks in life never got them removed.
Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly that a body should be able to call their own shots. I still have to jerk my own leash at times and tell myself to get real. I am human.
Reality Check!!
If Iran fires Nukes, non of this matters!
claycts wrote: Reality Check!! If Iran fires Nukes, non of this matters!
IF Iran fires nukes, all the more reason to enjoy trains in our last 30 minutes from doomsday.
Ye forget, Some of us recall the NIKE missile batteries back in the 60's. Living 30 minutes from the end of the world. (Travel time of a Ballistic Missile from Moscow to USA.)
If Iran did pop a nuke and broke things; killed people we probably will respond. The real problem is USSR and China. What will they do? Dont tell me anything about the UN. They have proven themselves to be pacifist paper loving peaceniks who are unable to do anything effective other than sitting around a large room and pass resolutions.
Have fun with your trains
selector,I am among the the millions that worked union jobs 80% of my working career.That means I made a good living so no complaints there.
Now,I am medically retired and still make good money sitting at home doing what I love to do model railroading and railfaning locally. No complaints here.I buy at on line discount and buy as I please and just maybe actually need..No complaints there.
I am a very happy guy.
However..I recall when wives didn't have to work just to help make car payments,house payments food and other important stuff including pop by the cases...Now add the vanity things that we really don't need to live but,feel we must have them just to keep up with the Smiths and Jones(that includes MR in some cases)..I see my friends in that life struggle daily.
Looking back I see my Dad only bought the locomotives and cars he needed to model the PRR..Today,I have my Short line,a collection of C&O and NS units and several short line engines plus CSX and CR units..Why? Simply because I liked them and bought them..Just like every model railroader today buying beyond what we actually need to have and some times kits never get built and some locomotive and car spend their life sitting in a glass case.
Vanity of vanities saith the preacher all is vanity..Ecclesiastes 12:8
And so it is.
Safety Valve wrote: claycts wrote: Reality Check!! If Iran fires Nukes, non of this matters! IF Iran fires nukes, all the more reason to enjoy trains in our last 30 minutes from doomsday. Ye forget, Some of us recall the NIKE missile batteries back in the 60's. Living 30 minutes from the end of the world. (Travel time of a Ballistic Missile from Moscow to USA.) If Iran did pop a nuke and broke things; killed people we probably will respond. The real problem is USSR and China. What will they do? Dont tell me anything about the UN. They have proven themselves to be pacifist paper loving peaceniks who are unable to do anything effective other than sitting around a large room and pass resolutions.
Maybe if model railroading were more popular in Iran, we wouldn't have this problem. After all, if the Iranians put all their money into model trains, they couldn't afford nukes. They'd have forums where they'd ramble on about "Who can continue to pay for this nuclear program?" and then argue about how much cheaper enriched uranium was back in their day. And then somebody would say "It's not a REAL nuclear weapon unless it has a boosted primary," and others would say "No, as long as you had fun making it, it doesn't matter if it has a big yield or not..."
And then someone would drag that thread off topic...
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
I've been doing a little thinking about this thread, and the previous one about the hobby dying, and the current thread about project railroads. CNJ may be on to something, but the not the way he intended.
In the '50s, the objective of the MR project railroads (before the days of readily available scale train sets), was to show armchair model railroaders that they were capable of building a small table layout with a modicum of skills, money, and time. The project layouts gave suggestions as to what track to use, how to lay it, wiring diagrams, suggestions for relatively easy loco and car kits, and scenery how-tos. All aimed at helping a beginner get started (or an armchair mr get off their duff) in the hobby. The implication is that there were (or at least thought to be) a fair percentage of readers who had never built a layout (armchair modelers). Another obvious implication is that MR (as it still does) sees growing the hobby as good for its business.
Fast forward to today. A dad (could be a teenager just as easily) goes into an LHS and buys an HO or N train set for about $100-$150. He sees himself playing trains with his kids, and even if the kids don't care for it after a while, he'll still enjoy it. The set contains a reasonable locomotive (it runs out of the box), a few cars, some track with built-in roadbed, and a minimal power pack. He sets it up at home and it works - reasonably. The train goes around the circle.
Now he wants to expand a little, maybe get 2 trains running on a 4x8. Lumber for his table - probably $50-$75. He gets told you want quality in that 2nd engine, don't settle for anything less than Kato or Atlas or P2K. $100+ for that second loco. A few RTR cars at $15 each - God help him if he wants passenger cars. Don't forget the addtional track - another $100 (we're keeping to a simple plan). Need another power pack, too, and it has to be a step up. A few plastic building kits at $25 each, and all of a sudden his investment goes from $150 to at least $650. In his eyes, his costs went up by more than a factor of 4, but he only got a second train out of it. No wonder he is in sticker shock, especially when the wife finds out. Ain't going to be any expansion beyond that table top for quite a while! And because he built his layout in a month (pretty easy RTR, you know) and burned through all that money in the same time frame, things are not very interesting any more, either.
What has happened is the the armchair and mr wannabes of the past now have as CNJ put it "train set layouts". There are far more of them than there used to be. At the high end, because of RTR and decent manufactured turnouts, basement-size layouts are now practical for those with $$. This has spurred the manufacturers to go up-scale, too.
In the meantime, what hasn't happened is a methodology and practical ways for the train set modeler to become in CNJ's eyes "a real model railroader". It Mr. Train Set gets lucky, he finds a truly helpful LHS or club, or stumbles across a friendly online forum where he/she doesn't get made fun of. But most LHSs hide the kits on shelves in the back in closed boxes. The RTR is out front and visible. RTR solves the nasty (and expensive!)problem of returns and service for both the LHS and manufacturer when a newb get in over his head with a kit. And if Mr. Train Set doesn't find some reassurance, assistance, and ways to stay within the budget he drops out.
Interestingly enough, MR of the '50s and '60s used to be full of these types of articles - dollar models, kitchen table locos, encouraging pictures of average and incomplete efforts in the photos section. I know in my case (before Internet), MR did serve as the bridge to make the climb from train set to more. It was a Jack Work article in Apr '63 that gave me the courage to handlay my track. An MR editorial about $$/hr encouraged me to use my limited budget on kits. A '66 MR article encouraged me enough to finally try making some plaster scenery.
Now, project layouts are fewer and less applicable to Mr. Train Set. Layout visits seem to consume most of the magazine, and prototype plans and articles about scratchbuilding are very rare. Kit-bashing outside of structures is non-existent. When was the last time you saw an article on modifying a Labelle or other wooden kit? Or about sources for detail parts for various eras of locomotives and cars? How about teaching DC wiring for that majority that still use DC?
While there is a lot of truth to the saying about only publishing what mr's write about, there is also a visible agenda at MR to promote the high end of the hobby. Look at what gets reviewed - high end locos and RTR cars and DCC, and precious little else. This contributes to the sticker shock that started this thread. When was the last time an ordinary car kit (like a BB) was reviewed so that a newb could understand what they were getting (or not getting) if they purchased one? Or using a review of a craftsman kit to explain the differences between it and a BB? I look in my '60s back issues and I see reviews of trucks, detail parts, structure kits (not limited run!), and loco and car kits in addition to the then high end such as brass locos and cars (which were also limited run). How about a review of an ordinary S or other minoirty scale/gauge item occasionally?
enough of my ranting, returning to my hole
Fred Wright
in foggy, coastal Oregon where it's always 1900
Fred,There's a lot of iron clad truth in your words for all to read.Sadly I doubt if everybody will fully understand what you are saying but,its in MR for all to see and read.
Forget DC..He/She will need nothing less then DCC to run a train around a simple loop per MR..Look at the current simple loop layout project.
fwright wrote: I've been doing a little thinking about this thread, and the previous one about the hobby dying, and the current thread about project railroads. CNJ may be on to something, but the not the way he intended. In the '50s, the objective of the MR project railroads (before the days of readily available scale train sets), was to show armchair model railroaders that they were capable of building a small table layout with a modicum of skills, money, and time. The project layouts gave suggestions as to what track to use, how to lay it, wiring diagrams, suggestions for relatively easy loco and car kits, and scenery how-tos. All aimed at helping a beginner get started (or an armchair mr get off their duff) in the hobby. The implication is that there were (or at least thought to be) a fair percentage of readers who had never built a layout (armchair modelers). Another obvious implication is that MR (as it still does) sees growing the hobby as good for its business. Fast forward to today. A dad (could be a teenager just as easily) goes into an LHS and buys an HO or N train set for about $100-$150. He sees himself playing trains with his kids, and even if the kids don't care for it after a while, he'll still enjoy it. The set contains a reasonable locomotive (it runs out of the box), a few cars, some track with built-in roadbed, and a minimal power pack. He sets it up at home and it works - reasonably. The train goes around the circle. Now he wants to expand a little, maybe get 2 trains running on a 4x8. Lumber for his table - probably $50-$75. He gets told you want quality in that 2nd engine, don't settle for anything less than Kato or Atlas or P2K. $100+ for that second loco. A few RTR cars at $15 each - God help him if he wants passenger cars. Don't forget the addtional track - another $100 (we're keeping to a simple plan). Need another power pack, too, and it has to be a step up. A few plastic building kits at $25 each, and all of a sudden his investment goes from $150 to at least $650. In his eyes, his costs went up by more than a factor of 4, but he only got a second train out of it. No wonder he is in sticker shock, especially when the wife finds out. Ain't going to be any expansion beyond that table top for quite a while! And because he built his layout in a month (pretty easy RTR, you know) and burned through all that money in the same time frame, things are not very interesting any more, either. What has happened is the the armchair and mr wannabes of the past now have as CNJ put it "train set layouts". There are far more of them than there used to be. At the high end, because of RTR and decent manufactured turnouts, basement-size layouts are now practical for those with $$. This has spurred the manufacturers to go up-scale, too. In the meantime, what hasn't happened is a methodology and practical ways for the train set modeler to become in CNJ's eyes "a real model railroader". It Mr. Train Set gets lucky, he finds a truly helpful LHS or club, or stumbles across a friendly online forum where he/she doesn't get made fun of. But most LHSs hide the kits on shelves in the back in closed boxes. The RTR is out front and visible. RTR solves the nasty (and expensive!)problem of returns and service for both the LHS and manufacturer when a newb get in over his head with a kit. And if Mr. Train Set doesn't find some reassurance, assistance, and ways to stay within the budget he drops out. Interestingly enough, MR of the '50s and '60s used to be full of these types of articles - dollar models, kitchen table locos, encouraging pictures of average and incomplete efforts in the photos section. I know in my case (before Internet), MR did serve as the bridge to make the climb from train set to more. It was a Jack Work article in Apr '63 that gave me the courage to handlay my track. An MR editorial about $$/hr encouraged me to use my limited budget on kits. A '66 MR article encouraged me enough to finally try making some plaster scenery. Now, project layouts are fewer and less applicable to Mr. Train Set. Layout visits seem to consume most of the magazine, and prototype plans and articles about scratchbuilding are very rare. Kit-bashing outside of structures is non-existent. When was the last time you saw an article on modifying a Labelle or other wooden kit? Or about sources for detail parts for various eras of locomotives and cars? How about teaching DC wiring for that majority that still use DC? While there is a lot of truth to the saying about only publishing what mr's write about, there is also a visible agenda at MR to promote the high end of the hobby. Look at what gets reviewed - high end locos and RTR cars and DCC, and precious little else. This contributes to the sticker shock that started this thread. When was the last time an ordinary car kit (like a BB) was reviewed so that a newb could understand what they were getting (or not getting) if they purchased one? Or using a review of a craftsman kit to explain the differences between it and a BB? I look in my '60s back issues and I see reviews of trucks, detail parts, structure kits (not limited run!), and loco and car kits in addition to the then high end such as brass locos and cars (which were also limited run). How about a review of an ordinary S or other minoirty scale/gauge item occasionally? enough of my ranting, returning to my hole Fred Wright in foggy, coastal Oregon where it's always 1900
Behold! A story of the Hobby that has many truths!
brothaslide wrote: Safety Valve wrote: claycts wrote: Reality Check!! If Iran fires Nukes, non of this matters! IF Iran fires nukes, all the more reason to enjoy trains in our last 30 minutes from doomsday. Ye forget, Some of us recall the NIKE missile batteries back in the 60's. Living 30 minutes from the end of the world. (Travel time of a Ballistic Missile from Moscow to USA.) If Iran did pop a nuke and broke things; killed people we probably will respond. The real problem is USSR and China. What will they do? Dont tell me anything about the UN. They have proven themselves to be pacifist paper loving peaceniks who are unable to do anything effective other than sitting around a large room and pass resolutions. There is a book called, "Atomic Iran" by Dr. Jerome R. Corsi which discusses a scenario of a suitcase nuke being detonated in New York City - Very scary! It's a no win situation for everyone involved.
As a person old enough to remember Korea (not MASH), Vietnam (classic example of screw-ups) I must sit back and read this thread falling back on the comment of a reality check.
If there was this kind of passion in the UN or in Washington then maybe things would be better. Me I am enjoying the latter years of life and can afford this hobby or any hobby I wish. That is called planing for you future.
This has been a very amusing thread that took on a life of it's own. Aren't you all glad we do not have to pay for time on this forum!!!
Play nice, I am going to run some trains!
Russell
Kits, cars, locomotives make great presents.... so from many people you could conceivably get 1 or 2 locomotives, a few cars, or kits. So next time someone asks you what you want for ____ event tell them, modeling supplies. So you might repaint it, surely you'll add more details, but weren't you going to do that anyway? So you save on the locomotive... spend the same cash on details for two or three, or something else. But also you don't have to model a gigantic basement/room filled giant "class one" railroad. How about a short line? Or maybe a regional? Or even a branch line of that class one you want to model? What about keeping it simple? Also if you look at the Model Railroader Layout and Planning Contest, they're using the average sized room for a model train layout.... 9 by 11 ft. Granted to some it’s not a lot of space but if you're creative, you can do a lot with it. The simple truth is yes prices for everything has gone up partly cause of inflation. People blame rising economies like the People's Republic of China, India, etc...(mainly Red China) for rising costs. But if you are creative and think outside the traditional avenues for the same dollar you can go far. Unfortunately it’s easier to blame people than it is to figure out ways of getting the job done.
One reason I took back to this hobby (MR) was the costs..... New RC Cars are well over $500 to get out the door and probably average another $50 a month or so in new replacement parts (things break when they go 45mph into parking beams) and track fees.
I pay only $25 a month in club dues.... this provides me with unlimited use of the club owned layout with a whole arsenal of engines and rolling stock to use and configure as I wish. I have also taken back into purchasing blue box kits / accurail kits / bowser kits for making long trains that I want to be able to see and run. (Average of $30 a month in kits)
In two years of being back in this hobby, I have spent $165 on one Proto 2000 engine with sound and DCC as well as $100 on its companion engine without sound.
I think that these costs are reasonable.
P.S. If you think something is too much... just wait awhile the price will come down. I.E. the Proto 2000 GP38-2's were all over $100 a year and a half ago. Most places are hard pressed to be giving them away at $65 now.
Boy, has this been beat to death, or what?
Mark P.
Website: http://www.thecbandqinwyoming.comVideos: https://www.youtube.com/user/mabrunton
Brunton wrote: Boy, has this been beat to death, or what?
I agree, This was one of the most beaten threads out there. I hate to continue it but I know MANY small manufacturers that are mom and pop operations that would really be sad to read this thread.
JL Innovative, Hunter Scenery, Sodders enterprises, ML Designs to name a few are all wonderfull companies that stuggle to compete with the "big guys" , produce quality products, and offer awesome customer service! Making huge profits? Making a living is more like it.
SO THE NEXT TIME YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT WALTHERS PRICES, HOW ABOUT SURFING THE WEB AND SUPPORT THE SMALL COMPANIES!
David
Yes, and how many times since you and I have been on this forum at the same time. I'm beginning to think that the polls were more tolerable. (gag)
Bob, if you're reading this, I took exception to a post of yours about 16 months ago where you raked someone for repetition or for an inane poll. I think I may have to ask you for some pepper.
Mark,That is so true..The dang-est part as they speak there is a super sale going on at M.B.Kleins that has prices anybody can afford..However..I'll bit a cup of coffee this topic will ramble on and on and on about how unfordable this hobby is...
Yes it has been beat to death.
Look at this, BLI enignes with sound for $129.99, even I can afford that.
http://trainworld.com/broadwayltd/BROADWAYBLOWOUTS.htm
dekruif
PLEASE, PLEASE stick a fork in this, it is DONE!!!
I am starting a thread on the Ferrari forum about who can afford $1.25Mil for an Enzio. Not me, I bought a Testarossa instead.
Think it will get the same PLAY TIME.?
Exact same difference in BOTH questions. Who can afford it? Anybody who wants to!