Does anybody else miss the old "round and round" layout?

[orsonroy]

A point to point layout is just fine, IF you have a LONG mainline (6+ scale miles) or IF you've only got room for a small switching layout (1x6 or so). But if you've got a mid-sized space, you're probably selling yourself short by NOT having some provision for continuous running.

I've been to MANY home layouts over the years, and the ones that get the most use are the single level half basement affairs that have at least one continuous running track. For all the words expended on operations-based layouts, the ones that I've seen (and I've seen some of the best) aren't used nearly as much as "conventional" home layouts, even ones that host five intense op sessions a month. Those layout owners seem pleased with what they've created, but it seems to me that they're missing one of the points of this hobby: watching the trains run.

Some people call me a rivet counter, and I might be. But I do acknowledge the fact that we're all just playing with little toy trains, and one of the joys in this hobby is the relaxing "fishbowl effect", where you can just turn the layout on, sit back, and watch things run. Just as I think that there's something odd about some freelancers, I also feel that there's something odd about a proto operations guy who never cracks a throttle on their own layout except during a once monthly op session (and sometimes not even then!)

My last layout was a 12x25 three level layout with a three scale mile long mainline. I made sure that I had continuous running on at least one of the levels. My new layout will be a 14x26 double decker, with a five mile main. I'm trying to figure out how to provide for continuous running on the current plan.

[dean_1230]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector


At the end of the day, when you are turning off the power and the lights, and look back to see your creation, what will you think?

what do i think when i turn off the lights???

"man, that's an awful lot of pink dirt... i wonder how long before something will grow over it"

:-)

Seriously, my layout is 30 inches off the floor and is a 4x8 single mainline with a several spurs, a very small yard (two tracks) and an interchange track. I have no "dedicated" staging, but am planning a removable staging yard off the interchange track.

I've thought about a switching layout, but at times they seem like too much work . the kids like watching the trains go round as do i. i couldn't fathom not having that ability

Dean

[SilverSpike]

My layout design includes both mainline point to point and has options for continuous runs as well. The mainline is essentially a double dog bone loop that starts on the lower level and has two reverse loops one at the upper and one at lower level. I like having the option of being able to set out a consist or two and just have them run from one level to the other and back around again. And I can also have the option to have an op session too; there is also local switching available on both levels. And I also have built into the plan the option to run through freight operations to give the appearance of consists originating and ending at locations "off site." With these many options it seems that I should be able to keep it interesting for some time.

I have just begun building the benchwork for my lower and upper levels, you can see the layout plans on my Google pages website link listed below my signature in this post. It is essentially an around the room wall bracket benchwork design with an island peninsula forming a G shaped layout. I don’t like to limit myself to one scenario for operating my trains, and I still like to see them “round and round” too!

Since my wife and two sons have an interest in the trains too, I have built in these options to let everyone get into the action. Having the “round the loop” option gives them a great way to feel comfortable with getting introduced to the hobby. Over time they can work up to the intricacies of waybills and building consists and having “op sessions.”

Cheers,

Ryan

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts
If watching the trains run through the scenery is so great; why is it that the members of the club (during a show) get so bored with setting there running the trains for 12 hours at a time. They are doing exactly what they like (roundy-round – watching it run through the scenery again and again) and they can change trains (as we have a number of passing sidings with complete trains ready to go).

BUT when they come to one of my 12 hr OPTUDs (OP Till U Drop) sessions I can’t get them to leave! And these are the same people! Pretty much says it all!

And reading the articles in the model magazines and notes here on the net, there are more and more modelers stating that they have torn down their old layout and are building a new one, Why? Bored with the old one if the truth be known. (and come to find out most of these are roundy-round mainline running layouts)!

Bob - While the situation with you and your club members is certainly not unique, it is nevertheless atypical of the hobby in general. As many posters here know, I have a great passion for the hobby's history and associated statistics and these tell a quite different story regarding "operations" and any supposed disinterest in round-and-round layouts.

From the early 1950's onward, MR has pushed the idea of operations...far more so than any of the other magazines. In spite of this, at least up through the 1990's, readers' surveys indicated that never more that perhaps 10%-15% of modelers bought into the idea seriously. Likewise, Linn Westcott had a most interesting article in MR many years ago that classified model railroaders' interests and the types of layouts they built. Westcott determined that "operations" oriented layouts/interest were but a small fraction of the total. The majority of classifications indicated a desire to see trains run or even had the trains secondary to the overall modeling aspect.

However, with the dramatic rise of the Internet and its forums a decade or so ago, we began to see a much more bias view of what the "average" hobbyist was doing. On-line surveys are highly selective in who they poll compared to the old magazine readers' surveys and rather than sampling a cross section of hobbyists, we see a younger, more tech-oriented, crowd, that is heavily influenced by the idea of operations that is often loudly proclaimed by a handful of posters as the only true purpose of model railroading. The vast majority of older, long established, hobbyists are minimally represented here as, by and large, they are not computer people or, at best, too limited in computer skills to participate fully. While you and I are indeed older and long in the hobby, I can't say that any of my 60-ish hobbyist friends are even on-line, let alone forum posters! So, if one can not see a true cross section of hobbyists today, it is impossible to judge what is the norm in the way of layouts.

Overall, everything I've been able to scrap together indicates that round-and-round layouts are still as common and popular as ever, and in the most liberal sense, probably amount to something like 75% of all pikes built today (and yesterday, for that matter). While most do include some switching ability (as they always have), few are truly operations oriented from first design to final execution. The moral here being, at least with regard to model railroading, don't take any facts and figure derive totally from on-line surveys, or based on a handful of individual posts, as truly representative of the state of the hobby.

And all these above conclusions come from a guy who indeed does a version of operations on his own pike. [;)]

CNJ831

[cmrproducts]

We need more of the, I love to watch my trains run through the scenery types to help out at our club shows!

If watching the trains run through the scenery is so great; why is it that the members of the club (during a show) get so bored with setting there running the trains for 12 hours at a time. They are doing exactly what they like (roundy-round – watching it run through the scenery again and again) and they can change trains (as we have a number of passing sidings with complete trains ready to go).

BUT when they come to one of my 12 hr OPTUDs (OP Till U Drop) sessions I can’t get them to leave! And these are the same people! Pretty much says it all!

And reading the articles in the model magazines and notes here on the net, there are more and more modelers stating that they have torn down their old layout and are building a new one, Why? Bored with the old one if the truth be known. (and come to find out most of these are roundy-round mainline running layouts)!

Now I have nothing against those that like to watch the trains run. I like switching type of running. I can do scenery and scratch build buildings (which I have to do as I am building a Prototypical layout) but it is not the real fun part. I love to do switching of the cars.

Running of long trains just to watch them run through the scenery keeps my attention for OH! about 10 seconds, and then it is boring. Why? I really don’t know. Maybe it is because I have seen this same section of scenery a million times and it never changes. But the consist and the cars in the local switcher are completely different this time around. Now my switching challenge is going to be entirely different than it was with the last train I had.

With the Long train syndrome I am usually walking ahead of the train looking to be sure the turnouts are thrown for the proper direction. Am I watching my train, NOPE! Well I am, only to be sure that the caboose is still on the train. But other than this it is the same train I left with at the yard and it will be the same train I end up at the destination yard. And what really clinches the whole deal about being boring is that my Keypad goes into Power Save mode. Now why would that happen? Because I have not had to make any speed changes for a period of 3 minutes or so. Why? Because the train is on the long mainline run and there is no need to make changes!

Sort of clinches what I have been trying to say all along!

These are the observations from 50 plus years of being in the Hobby and 20 plus years as a member of a Club!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

Miss it? Heck, I'm looking forwards to it...

[dinwitty]

A lot of older layout designes were made exactly with the round the round design.
Some may be small, some extravigant. They could feature some good operations as well, have passenger terminals, switching freight, and the operator mostly sat at one position. and the layout wasnt a perfect looping, it went up down , around with enough running for interest. You just ran your train around the loop a few times, then enter the next town via switch.

There are good things to be said about such a layout, but I would never make a simple loop, ever.

My shelf layout is planned point to point with cheating ways to continuous run.

[jwils1]

At my age I too like to sit most of the time. So, I run my 30" high layout from a desk chair where I have my controls and computer set up. I can even do my yard switching from the chair. I can stand and walk around if I want to but the only time I have to is when switching industries in one of my two towns using a cordless throttle.

My 6' x 18' space includes 3 loops and 2 reversing tracks so I can run continuously all over the layout if I want to. But I like switching too, so I have 10 industry sites plus the yard. My 3rd town has just the yard in it.

Don't have scenery yet but I like Texas Zepher's thoughts of having the trains hidden from time to time as they make there way around.

Jerry

[jpwc50]

Continuous running capability is a "must have" for me because I Iike watching trains be they real or models.

[Paul3]

My 25' x 50' layout will eventually have a loop at each end, but for now it's just point to point, and has been so for a couple years. The only reason why I want loops is so that I can just run a train to break it in or to run one for visitors without having to change ends all the time.

I would not use my loops for operations.

Do I miss the "roundy-round"? Not really. I get bored so fast just watching the trains go around and around and around... Ho-hum. Zzzzzzzzzzz. Um, sorry, must have dozed off there... [;)] Even at my club, I don't run trains all that much. Just too dull.

During an operation at my club, however, it's all exciting. There are 22 trains run in 2 hours on two divisions, with two dispatchers, a Trainmaster, and a dozen engineers. In fact, we've got an operation on Monday that I have to prepare. When I run my home layout or at the club, I have to have a purpose. I must have a Train Order or a switchlist or I might as well be playing TrainSim.

Mondo,
My layout is point to point, and I use staging. If you're doing realistic operations, I don't see how you can do it without staging. All RR's (with few exceptions) connect to the continental rail network at some point. You just can't have a Northern Pacific boxcar bounce back and forth between Boston and New York without ever going home...at least you can't if you want to be realistic. Per diem charges alone would bankrupt your RR. [:)]

I use my staging yard just feet away from Providence to represent New Haven's Cedar Hill and all connections to the west...to Maybrook, to Harlem River and to Bay Ridge. My cars from Boston and Providence simply have to go somewhere, and my staging yard is that place.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Other than when I was a kid, from pre-teen days, I've never owned a roundy-go-roundy. All my subsequent model railways have been point to point.

However, the next time I build I'm planning to have a least the main staging as though staging. This will give me the opportunity for continuos running but it'll really there for operational purposes.

[tcf511]

The layout I'm building now is 14 x 16 with a double track mainline and some industrial spurs. The grandkids (and I) like to watch more than one train run at a time. A big old loop allows them to carefully operate the trains as well without quite so much attention from granddad.

[ARTHILL]

Sounds like I'm not the only one who wanted a loop around the room to be the basis of opperations. Some of the best layouts I have seen are basiaclly a loop around a room with al kinds of industry along the way. Most of the people I have seen who have point to point have such because do not have the space for at least one loop.

[IRONROOSTER]

One advantage of a high layout - mine is 58" is that you can have another one underneath. For a couple years I had some Lionel trains on a table running underneath the main layout. They're temporarily stored while I make some changes, but I expect to have them back out soon.
Enjoy
Paul

[ModelTrainman]

I have continuous run....... I sort of like continuous run!

[on30francisco]

My layout is built around the perimeter of a small room so besides using space efficiently and having larger radii, I can also run the trains continuously. I mostly enjoy building very detailed structures, rolling stock and other items for the Large Scale portion of the layout and scenic items such as trestles, bridges, mountains etc for the HO part. Besides 45mm LS, I have a Gn15 industrial line. Part of that line is shared by the HO trains since they both run on 16.5mm gauge track (HO). Besides switching and running point-to-point, I sometimes like to kick back and watch the trains go round and round

[Anonymous]

I have a 9 x 5 that I use currently, which I will be building into a larger layout this summer, I purposely build it to a 36" height so I can sit and enjoy the trains. Evidently the people who want the 55" height must spend their entire day seated behind a desk. After working on my feet for years I find it more relaxing and enjoyable. If height is for you that's fine, but you should create the environment that is best for you and no one else. When my son was three I built a layout 24" off the floor and him and I played with it on his level. It will be one of the most memorable times I had in my life.

[Anonymous]

I have a double track loop with spurs running in various ditections, also included is an end to end preserved mountain RR, guess I kind of have both.

[myred02]

My new layout is essentially one long rectangular table with a double oval of track with a few spurs and a yard integrated into the whole thing. The thing is, you either have to be very smart, watch what I'm doing with the wireless throttles (which are in my hand for 5 minutes and in the pocket on the facia for the rest of the session), or destroy the mountains to find a set of tracks runing underneith them to realize it is actually a big oval.

Like you said, ovals are great because you can sit back and watch your trains do their thing, just like being a railfan on their euphoric "perfect day." However, building a "functional" layout builds a sense of realism. It all boils down to what your personal preferences are.

Happy Railroading

-Brandon

[selector]

I love steam locomotives. I could stand for hours, bewitched by all that cycling metal, the hiss, the heat, the vibration, etc. The closest I can have to that and still keep the spiders and earwigs out is in a confined space with sound decoders.

I have heeded the warnings of the true modelers and operators here: even the die-hard roundy-round fan will have an off day when he/she wants something else to do with the trains. So I have a couple of spurs on my in-progress layout, and I will actually have a reasonable yard for the first time. BUT, I like watching steamers struggling with long loads up long sweeping grades with the occasional tree and structure blocking the view. I enjoy the vistas, and I enjoy watching trains sweep by at speed. It is hard to get that without a considerable length of loop. So, mine is a folded loop (typical, no?) that crosses over itself via a 5' tunnel.

At the end of the day, when you are turning off the power and the lights, and look back to see your creation, what will you think? That you addressed other people's concerns and druthers, or that you listened to your own inner voice and heeded it.

In my case, I did a bit of both.

[fwright]

Mondo

I too am scared because the wife said to make my next layout (we're moving) a shelf layout, and I've never had anything but rectangular island layouts before - see my thread a couple of weeks ago about "no more 4x8s". I usually operate solo, so at most having one train circulating unattended while I switch with the other has been the general plan. Despite her objections, I will probably have an O/O27 two loop 4x8 as well until I establi***hat my kids (12 and 10) prefer HO or aren't interested in trains at all. I also plan to have a portable test track loop for breaking in my kit-built steam locos.

I see 3 scenarios that call for staging on layouts:

- when you have a multi-operator layout where using yards would be too slow or space consuming to support the number of trains to be operated on the layout during an operating session.

- when you have a single operator and you want to vary the consist of what is running unattended

- when you want on-layout storage for locomotives and cars that exceed the logical capacity of your layout.

Almost any other scenario or operational priorities would call for replacing staging with more mainline, scenes, or towns, IMHO. Note the schematic of a layout really doesn't affect the need or not for staging; the operational priorities do.

As for layout height, I design for sitting on a stool as my close-to-eye level rather than a lower chair. Stools take up less aisle space, store under the layout easily, and are easier to get into and out of. I can certainly understand the attraction of observing from a more comfortable chair, but I can live with the stool compromise. Especially when a shelf layout in a living room, family room, or bedroom is going to have to be reasonably high to look decent.

my thoughts, your choices
Fred W

[joeyegarner]

I have a couple of loops with with a siding, small yard and a couple of spurs. About 8X9 Upstairs in my shed behind my house. I prefer watching my trains run in circles...... I don't know much about operations though. Later this year I plan to build a new layout in the spare room here in the house. It should be about 10X12 around the room with a much larger yard and double track mainline, I want to have a passenger service as well as freight. Passenger train will be left to run most of the time while the freight will service one facility or another.

[mondotrains]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains
building a new house with the train room being almost 3 times what I have now. ...
You know that expression that "you've got to be careful what you wish for"? Now I know exactly what that really means. I'm actually "scared" of having all that space.

I'm with you there. I've never had space for my own layout larger than 4x16 or so. Now that the retirement plans are in place it looks like I'll get a space 60x90 (an old gymnasium) for my layout. I've helped many others with their layouts but for my own - I'm lost in space.

QUOTE: a double-ended yard ... backdrops so they are split into 2 scenes ... staging tracks .... run through a scene only once ... benchwork round 54" high so that trains could be watched from a little below eye level. That view was touted as much better. I've got it all, right?

What you have is all the "trendy things" from the 1990s. Model Railroading is just like any other thing, there are some really good ideas that become "the thing" that a layout "has to have". If one looks at a sequence of old magazines about model railroading certain trends can be seen that come and go. many will remember the "real water" trend in the late 1950 and early 1960s. One was certainly a MR slacker if they didn't have "real water". Well where is that today? Often laughed at or at least looked upon with scorn. It was a trend.

Staging is a feature that many insist a layout has to have. I contend that is only needed if the layout calls for it. Our club layout has 8 staging tracks that someone "had to have". With our current operational scheme the trains just blast past them and we wish we would have put the space to better use. Why?, because our layout has real places for the trains to come from and go to. We don't need to "pretend" they are going anywhere. Had we used the staging area for a "real" place it would have been that much better (and no it is now impossible to change without completely redoing the rest of the layout).

I also dislike the really tall bench work. It is a great novelty but gets really old after a while especially when trying to work on the layout without breaking all the detailed scenery. If I want to see the trains a eye level I can bend down (or sit in a wheeled chair) a lot easier than I can lower the bench work to do maintenance.

QUOTE: I miss those times when I could just sit and watch trains run around the whole layout. ... I've got to ask myself, do I want an operational layout that has penninsulas split into 2 separate scenes which enables trains to "run through a scene only once" or do I create that old "department store layout" like my last one? Is there a compromise?

Nothing says that you have to follow every trendy thing that is going on in the hobby. Since you have experience you now know what it is that makes Model Railroading enjoyable for you. This is a great advantage over people coming in taking all this trendy advice not knowing if they would like something different or not.

I have an additional problem that my layout has to be "interesting" to the casual observer. That is going to mean many more running trains than is operationally expedient. I’m thinking about putting in two loops with zero turnouts just for this purpose. That doesn’t fit in anyone’s definition of a “good” layout.

Hi Texas Zephyr,
You made some really good points and I appreciate that. When you say that your club didn't need staging, a bell went off in my head. If I make my layout a point-to-point, let's say with a New Haven yard at one end and another yard at the other, then you're right, I really don't need staging. I think that is what you're saying. I could have a couple of penninsulas branching off the around-the-room design, with maybe one being a wharf with all that potentially interesting scenery and maybe another being a branch to something else. Do most people with point-to-point design forego the staging?

Thanks again,
Mondo

[fiatfan]

I don't miss it. When I built my current layout, I incorporated a cutoff to allow for roundy-round for two reasons.

First, it allows me a way to break in locomtives with out constant supervision.

Second, it allows me to put on a demonstration for friends and relatives who wouldn't really appreciate an hour long operating session.

My son and his family are visiting from out of town and we had a 10 minute seesion in the basement which consisted of my grand daughter running each of the enigines aroud the room a few times.

The one bright spot in the family is my newest grandson. One of his first words was wooo-wooo (or is that two words?) Anyway, he was here last month and we had to drag him out of the basement kicking and screaming. Not bad for a kid who won't be two until August! He shows great promise.

But I digress...

I don't miss it but yeah, there are times when it's nice to have.

Yom

[nucat78]

I don't care for round-n-rounds unless there's a divider down the middle to make it look like there are two (or more) scenes. But I do think a continuous run option is a good thing if you can fit it in.

I am working on an L-shaped roughly 7ft X 7ft X 2ft wide N-scale switching layout. I thought long and hard about trying to work in a dogbone for continuous running, but it doesn't look like I'll be able to do that, even with 11-inch radius curves. Now if I finish my basement someday and move the layout down there...

If it's a nostalgia thing, why not build an O-27 or O-scale 4 X 8 oval like a lot of had as kids? If there are grandkids someday, they'll love it. You can still build an around-the-walls N or HO shelf layout with return loops or a continuous run option.

[Vampire]

I love to watch 'em run too. My layout will be a point-to-point branch line that interchanges with the B&O. In my case the B&O will be a loop-to-loop with one end (the interchange point) sceniced and the other in staging, so I can have a little of the round & round effect if desired.

I can also go up to my home office, which has 2 HO tracks, one above the other, running around the walls. Loads of enjoyable round & round action there!

[davekelly]

Mondo,

If you like "round and round" build a "round and round." No matter what folks may think the "right" way is, my thought is that if you aren't enjoying it, you aren't doing it right!

Back to your question. I don't miss the round and round layouts, although I think a continuous run option is a top priority for the times I just want to watch the trains runnin'
What I do sometimes miss, however, is the time in my life when a single, out of scale, moving way to fast train going around and around a circle of three rail track was big time fun.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: ...does anybody else miss the "round and round"?

I don't miss it......... because that's pretty much what my layout is! It's hard not go round and round on a door (note to nitpickers, I said "hard", not "impossible").

There's a slim chance I'll get more space and have a chance to build one last layout (I'm 59). If I do it will be an around-the-walls type with some sort of moveable bridge so I don't have to duck under. It will definitely have continuous run capability. Watching those dudes go around, with that low background noise lulling you, is a great relaxer.


Regards

Ed

[railroadyoshi]

I feel it's important to have the capability for both. Design your layout point-to-point, but have a connection back. Is the problem not having a loop but having a loop that you don't need to move around a large space for? You might want to consider having your layout at a height where you can sit in a computer chair and move around. Or, perhaps include a smaller loop in one section.

In a previous layout I designed, Most of the layout was linear, but I designed one section where the line wraps around itself and contorts to provide visual interest. You might want to consider such an area.

An idea that I never previously thought about is widening a helix so that it seems like individual scenes wrapped around. This could be a great spot just to sit and watch the trains, and could be easily done in your space. This is especially nice when the area is well secluded from the rest of the layout. Ace Cutter, whose layout was featured in GMR2006, had this feature.

Best of luck.

[MisterBeasley]

My layout is a free-standing table, 5x12 feet in HO. I would prefer a round-the-room layout, but that's the space I've got, so that's how I've made the most of it. I have not one but 2 round-the layout loops, plus some switching and engine service facilities. Since I almost always run the layout by myself, this gives me the opportunity to run my switching in such a way that it appears I'm interacting with a busy main line, even if it's just the same train coming around time after time. I have the best of two worlds - I can just sit and watch the trains run, or I can actively participate in a busy railroad with trains other than my own running all over the place.

If I did have a round-the-room, I would probably use some combination of dogbones and reverse loops to allow unattended continuous running. But, there would be yards and staging at the extreme ends so that I could run a more realistic operating session if I wanted to, simply by throwing the turnouts so the trains didn't come back.

As a side note, on my layout I have a lot of structures and terrain, so that the trains are always playing peek-a-boo with the operators. The loop effect is greatly reduced when it seems that the train disappears from view for a while, even if it does show up somewhere else a short time later. Tunnels and other forms of hidden return tracks are a good way to hide the roundy-round look and allow you to keep your continuous-running capability.