Does anybody else miss the old "round and round" layout?

[Anonymous]

I kinda have the best of both worlds. My mainline is an around the wall loop, with a small yard off one corner that is my logging camp, and an inside point to point and loop, with two spurs, and a runaround.

[Anonymous]

I have given this subject alot of thought as i am building a new layout now. Originally I was going to go point-to-point as that seemed to be the 'thing' to do. Upon much reflection, I chose to have at least one continuous loop on my layout so that (as mentioned before) I can run a train around while I am switching and it will seem like traffic. Also, I have kids and they don'y yet appreciate the 'ops' side of model RR.

I would add another loop but my prototype was a single mainline and I'm afraid it would lose it's authenticity. Hopefully, I will have the best of both worlds which is more than anyone can ask.

[Anonymous]

I have three roundy rounds on dinning room tabel ( and yes my wifegave her blessings). Reminds me of the old Sears Lionel layouts at Christmas in the 50's. Would more space be nice. Yes but it beats no layout at all. Phil

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by DigitalGriffin

. .. I finally got the passenger train around it last night without derailing, shorting, or stalling....But there are times I just want to sit and watch the train pass from city->country because it's realaxing to hear the chuffs and watch the trains go by peacefully. So loops are mandatory...



~Don

I am soooooooo there right now.[:(]

[Pruitt]

My layout is designed for operations (someday I may get far enough along in construction to so some), but if completely "unwrapped," the mainline and major staging is two big circles. When I get the urge - and I do - I'll be able to just run trains around and around, though it takes abot five minutes to go around once on the staging circle, which is complete, and SHOULD take 20 or so minutes to go once around the mainline loop (I'll have several trains running on it at once).

When I see some of the "fifteen feet of mainline" point-to-point layout plans in the model press, I just think "not me!"

[cmrproducts]

Well I see that we still are arguing the difference between Operators and Roundy-Round.

This is not the point I am trying to make. So I guess I will have to get a little more blunt, SO I will go at this one more time!

We are all crying that the hobby is shrinking or dying and if this is true, just WHO is leaving the hobby?

It sure as heck isn’t the serious OPs modeler! It is the Roundy-rounder. You say that the majority of the modelers are only Roundy-rounders. If this is true then WHY is the hobby group shrinking.

And the WHO that are leaving, NOT all of those leaving are dying! I ain’t gonna ever believe that, and you know it too.

It is the Roundy-rounder that is bored to tears with the 1 millionth revolution of his engine, that’s who !

So what does it take to keep this modeler’s interest going so that they stay in the hobby, or those that are thinking about joining the hobby but see the Roundy-round as too boring and they never ever begin the hobby.

All of the serious Roundy-rounders and serious OPs modelers and the rivet counters are set in their ways so preaching to the choir is not going to change anything. It is those that are unsure as to the direction they need to go or don’t know that there is another direction (OPs) to go that need help.

When they go see exhibition layouts DO they SEE OPs?

NOPE! They see Roundy-Rounders.

Does this do anything to those that do not want to do Roundy-Round?

NOPE!

Does anyone even offer to explain that there is any thing to do with trains OTHER than Roundy-Round?

NOPE!

This is what I am getting at, so don’t waste time trying to defend your position on Roundy-Round! That is your problem. We need to get talking to those that are leaving or thinking of leaving the hobby and find out WHY they are doing this!

And being a closet hobbyist is not going to help the situation. I know you are not worried as you have all of the trains you will ever need and you are happy just the way you are. Yep and keep on believing that the world centers around you.

If the situation (modelers leaving the hobby) and the attitudes keep on going as they are the hobby will be gone and you won’t know why!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[mondotrains]

Hi Guys,
I've enjoyed reading all the responses I've gotten to my posting here. While it may appear that some guys have been a little "forceful" in their responses, I don't think it's meant to be critical or hurtful. You know how us guys can be....when we think we're right, that's it. You don't get my point, then you must be a dummy. Like my wife always says to me "it's not what you're telling me, honey, it's your lousy delivery". And you know what? She's right. My delivery sucks.

Just remember that most guys on this forum are just trying to help you better enjoy the hobby.The fact is that I think they are trying to say that with a little planning up front, even a small pike, built small either due to limited space or funds, can offer some "operation" and I think they are right. The more experienced modelers have had their turn at layouts that didn't offer much operation and ultimately may have had to replace them with something a little more operational. They are just trying to help the newer guys avoid having to start over or make major modifications later, which are usually more difficult and expensive.

It's kind of like the situation my wife and I are in now, with planning our new home. Better to add that porch or family room now, rather than to get into the new house and try to add on later....usually a lot more expensive and a messy proposition.

I have to say that when I first read about "operations", I was very intimidated and said to myself...no way am I going to watch a fast clock and worry about timetables etc. To tell you the truth, I still don't want all that stress, at least I don't think so. I've never had the opportunity to try it. Who knows, I may like it. But, I'm certainly enjoying simplistic operation on my current layout afforded by using a car-card forwarding system, like mentioned above by another reply. I've come to realize that operation doesn't have to be stressful,,,,,it can be a lot of fun.

I want to share something with you folks that have never tried operation. The real kick is that you get to decide how to best uncouple your train, run your engine around to the back, if you're switching a facing-point spur, and then slowly push your car into the appropriate track for the industry. The real fun here, if you haven't tried it, is that you get to really enjoy a section of your layout's scenery, whether it be a wharf, industrial section of a city or a grain elevator out on the prairie. The operative word here is "slowly"....because you're moving slowly, it slows down the action and allows you to really "see" your layout. That's the best way I can explain my pleasure while operating. It's a lot different than watching the train on the mainline, even if you're running it slowly.

I hope I've provided some insight that you can use. Remember, all of us guys, as long as we're in this hobby, will be fascinated by trains running by. Just remember what another guy said above and I'd like to reinforce it here; you probably didn't know what you were missing before you got into this hobby. If you haven't tried even some simple operation, then you don't know what you're missing. Please, I'm not insisting that roundy-round by itself is no good....I'm just trying to incent you to go beyond that because as a model railroad friend, I don't want you to miss anything. Sincerely!!!!!

Mondo

[DigitalGriffin]

Darn right I have a round and round. I have a double main line dog bone that spans two levels in my 28x32 L shaped basement. I finally got the passenger train around it last night without derailing, shorting, or stalling. The total mainline length is a little over 270' (give or take) or about 4.5 scale miles.

I figure if I don't run my train fast (say 20 SMPH) that it will take about 13 or 14 minutes to make a round trip. This is just enough time for yard to build up another outgoing consist from the docks and steel mill.

But there are times I just want to sit and watch the train pass from city->country because it's realaxing to hear the chuffs and watch the trains go by peacefully. So loops are mandatory.

Although I broke one of the cardinal design rules in the process. I made the main city/industry level about 50" off the floor, and the second country level 30" off the floor. I know the lower level is much shorter than most would probably like, but it's perfect when I plop down in a chair to watch the trains go by.

Why can't MRR'ing be fun and relaxing? Who says you have to constantly do ops to enjoy it?

~Don

[cuyama]

It's surprising to me that anyone would feel threatened by someone else's enjoyment of a hobby. The culture of victimhood extends even to model railroading, it seems.

My experience and observation suggest that more people active in the hobby today operate than scratchbuild rolling stock. Probabably a greater percentage of active hobbyists operate than hand lay their track. But who cares? All of these activities are part of the hobby, along with just watching trains run and many other aspects. Different people enjoy these different activities to differing degrees and in different combinations.

I've been on-line discussing track planning since 1995 (beginning on Compuserve's pre-Web text BBS) and can't remember ever seeing the kind of venomous criticism of a non-Ops track plan that's been claimed here.

Returning to the topic of the thread and reiterating: track plans with operating potential for bonus fun after building often may also offer continuous-run.

Regards,

Byron

[BRAKIE]

Part 2 [:D]

As far as operation I wonder how many that speaks out against operation has operated a layout or understand the meaning of operation?
I fully believe once again the "operation experts" has muddy the idea.If you use car cards/waybills that is a form of operation.You see one doesn't need time tables,fast clocks etc as taught by the "experts".
My prototype operations includes waybills/car cards,a small yard and lots of industries to switch..
How complex is that?

[BRAKIE]

Guys,What most modelers falsely believe is one can't have operations on a roundy layout or one needs a large layout with stagging yards..That is pure bull hockey taught by self proclaim "layout design experts" that needs to be shipped out in the next available gon.One doesn't need a basement size layout to enjoy operations..
Here is what one needs to do..First design your layout well fore going the normal thoughts of mountains,rivers etc,use your space WISELY on small layouts..Think smaller..A branch line,short line or a industrial switching road.
To many modelers today is caught up in the useless bigger is better layout thought and sit and dream,and dream and dream and dream of a layout that they may never have the room to build or in some cases the skill needed to build and maintain such a large layout.
I suspect that the roundy-roundy layout is still king of layout designs and will continue to be for the next 100 years.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts
It is not that we, the modeler, can not or should not have a Roundy-round layout BUT from my over 20 years of being in a train club is that those modelers have fun with a Roundy-round layout.

But again they soon lose interest in the layout, rip it down and MAYBE if they are lucky build another one. They get bored with JUST watching it make the one millionth lap on the ol’ 4x8.

What seems to keep the interest fresh is doing some type of OPs. Yes, you can still set the train in motion and work the yard but you are doing OPs.

It seems that a number of responders here are trying to give reasons why they do Roundy-round as there is some sort of need to defend what they are doing!? What ever you do is your business. If you are happy, Great!

But what about those that are just not quite sure. Could they maybe missing something? Could there be something else, other than just going Roundy-round? Maybe that missing thing is OPs!

A point I've always considered highly significant regarding the question of OPs, as it appeals to the average hobbyist, is that MR, the hobby's leading and most widely read magazine, has pushed the idea for more than half a century as essentially the way to run your layout. Yet, after all that time, the concept has never become mainstream. To me that speaks volumes about what most hobbyists are into model railroading for in the first place. Just as many did when they were kids, the majority of model railroaders seem to derive their pleasure from nothing more than the building of and seeing their trains run through a miniaturized landscape...a simple escape from the pressures of everyday life.

I note that the equivalent of OPs in other model-making hobbys is likewise of interest to only limited number of their participants (aircraft modeling, ship modeling, millitary model makers, etc.). I suspect that it takes a very specific mindset to derive pleasure from serious OPs and that for most, it's not really all that entertaining. Thus, the reason one sees people defend roundy-round layout designs is because that's specifically what they enjoy.

CNJ831

[Agamemnon]

I don't see it as an either/or position. My old layout had continuous along three separate loops and enough sidings and yards to keep a switcher busy for ages. The one thing it didn't have was realism, existing on what was IIRC a 5 by 9 foot table in 3-4 tangled levels of 15-18 inch curves and flex.

As I see it, a layout is a triad of sorts, with the following:

1. Continuous operation
2. Operational interest
3. Low space requirements

Two out of three fit on most home layouts. Getting all three requires special dispensation of space (converting the pool room, getting rid of the crum in the basement, parking outside, you name it). Unfortunately, I'm prohibited from converting the pool room, so I'll settle for limited switching capability and go with an overlapping double oval, one above the other, and as much sidings as I can.

[cmrproducts]

I think we are missing the point here.

It is not that we, the modeler, can not or should not have a Roundy-round layout BUT from my over 20 years of being in a train club is that those modelers have fun with a Roundy-round layout.

But again they soon lose interest in the layout, rip it down and MAYBE if they are lucky build another one. They get bored with JUST watching it make the one millionth lap on the ol’ 4x8.

What seems to keep the interest fresh is doing some type of OPs. Yes, you can still set the train in motion and work the yard but you are doing OPs.

It seems that a number of responders here are trying to give reasons why they do Roundy-round as there is some sort of need to defend what they are doing!? What ever you do is your business. If you are happy, Great!

But what about those that are just not quite sure. Could they maybe missing something? Could there be something else, other than just going Roundy-round? Maybe that missing thing is OPs!

Now I know a lot of modelers do not like OPs as they are only in the hobby to relax. Well I can surly find some cheaper way to relax. A six-pak and TV may be a LOT cheaper. But that is not what I do!

Also some will say they don’t like the stress of doing OPs! While there some OPs type layouts that are way too structured and everything has to be carried out by the rule book, our group does not work that way. We have fun and the Pin System of car movement is the easiest one to learn and if you make a mistake the so be it. Just drop the cars at the yard and the next train will get it moved. The Penn Central did it that way for years. And I am modeling the early CR so the practices will just carry over onto my layout.

I have operated on some OPs structured layouts and the OPs were intensive but then I love OPs. But this just proved to me that my method is still the best only because of the ease of use and the ability of the complete novice to be able to learn it in 5 minutes. It is simply following a color code. I have even had 8 and 9 year olds up and running radio DCC and doing OPs in 5 minutes. I have also gotten 75 year olds to be able to do the same in 5 minutes. So the system must be simple. And I think anyone that has ever operated on my layout will agree to that.

I didn’t build the thing to make like stressful but to have fun.

And this is where I am going with this. Those of us that are happy with the layouts we have and plan on keeping the design for then next 10 years, there is nothing I can say to you. BUT if you are not happy just running Roundy-round then OPs may be what’s missing in your hobby. And if you haven’t tried OPs then maybe you should!

You did not know what you were missing before you became a model railroader so don’t you think you may not what you are missing if you have not tried operations. And don’t think you can just try it one time. We all know that no one is comfortable trying something for the first time. You need to do projects, any project, more than a couple of time to begin to understand what is going on.

Just more Random Thoughts

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

First of all, designing for continous running and designing for operation are not exclusive goals, as some of these posts might suggest. Second, some of the biggest and best magazine- and museum- quality layouts have provisions for continous running. Granted some of that is to entertain the non-operational lay public and visitors, but it's there nonetheless. Third, whether a layout is designed for operation, running, or both, has no bearing on the current or final quality, finish, or level of detail. Sure, a loop is not "prototypical". Neither is a plastic locomotive.

Some of us have switching layouts not because we don't like loops, but because space constraints won't allow for them. Some of us have loops because we want longer "runs" than we would get if we built point-to-point. Some of us have 1000 square feet to work with and can do a little (or a lot) of everything.

[SpaceMouse]

There are members of my club that are hard-core roundy rounders. They don't care about operations or any such hooey. They also park their trains on the A/D track and pull their engines making it so no one else can get in the yard. But let them run the 20 minute loop and they are happy as punch. There is a place for them in the hobby.

Like Byron said, this doesn't have to be a mutually exclusive thing. For me Ops and railfanning fill two different needs. When I railfan, I just set the trains in motions and kick back and think of all the scenery things I want to do.

But when I run trains, circles are boring. If I have a controller in my hand, I want to be be breaking down and classifying a train. I want to be switching industries and if I have to figure something out to make the switch so much the better.

Ideally, operations is a team sport complete with dispatchers, yard masters, helper engines, engineers, conductors and radio communications.

Like said before, Ops and railfanning fill two distinct needs for me. I want both.

[Anonymous]

If I had a point to point only, there would be a huge mess at one end. I get to screwing around with a switcher and forget about my mainline from time to time. My friends layout is a huge double kidney bean shape on two levels that cross over each other. He has a yard on one side of the room and another on the opposite side. We send trains back and forth Point to point and have usually two just running the mainline. We have wired it so we each have an emergency stop that shuts the whole thing down. If we arren't ready for it we just send it around again. We have done the, "Was that headed north or south??" North! (As he pulls the plug). We put index cards on the mains that runs through the yard indicating what direction we are running just to be safe. We got out some older engines once to see if we could successfully get a north bound run in before the southbound got back. Yeah we never did that again.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I wouldn't be satisfied if I couldn't just watch the trains run.

[zgardner18]

My layout that I am designing will be the "dogbone" style, with a helix to bring it up to the second level. I will convert my 3rd car stall in my new house's garage and the best that I can do is a rap-around layout (To keep large radius curves) with a removable section by the man door. The second level will be a duck under (I'm still kind of young, so I can do that), but being the second level, it won't be all that low, but I am 6'2". The room will be 10.5x24 feet.

I like mainline running so of course my layout will be:
Come out of loop under helix on level one, mainline around the room up to the helix, enter helix, loop up helix, exit helix on second level. Hill up around the room to loop above helix, and back down again in the once traveled direction. It's all mainline with level one having a yard just as you exit the loop under the helix. The layout will be modeled after the old Northern Pacific Montana line from Livingston yard up Bozeman Hill. This is where I spent most of my time while I was suppose to be studying at school.

If this layout doesn't make since, email me and I will send you a PDF of my drawings.

The goal is to stand in the middle of the room and see the whole layout surround you. Oh, and I will have stageing under Level one.

[ModelTrainman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by caellis

I don't miss roundy's because I still use um'!

I guess my opinion and taste in MRR will be like those that have already stated they prefer roundy's. It is not that I prefer roundy layouts but rather I prefer layouts that have the best of both worlds.

I have a medium sized switching/operation area as well as a main line loop. I generally have a train running on the main line while I am doing extensive switching and short line operations on the other parts of my layout. Just another reason I use DCC..

This is what I like and after all it is my railroad. Too many 'experts' feel their way is the only way! After all this is a hobby.

me too!

[Anonymous]

I don't miss roundy's because I still use um'!

I guess my opinion and taste in MRR will be like those that have already stated they prefer roundy's. It is not that I prefer roundy layouts but rather I prefer layouts that have the best of both worlds.

I have a medium sized switching/operation area as well as a main line loop. I generally have a train running on the main line while I am doing extensive switching and short line operations on the other parts of my layout. Just another reason I use DCC..

This is what I like and after all it is my railroad. Too many 'experts' feel their way is the only way! After all this is a hobby.

[Milwhiawatha]

my layout room is 16' X 9' basically the layout runs around the walls but its not all 2' wide section infact the becnhwork is all different feet its hard to imagine I know. I do have pull out sections due to sub pumps and the door way. I too am heavy younger bad knees from stocking so my layout is 37" off the ground and my second layer will be 24" above that. I know about the feet hurting I get gout etc.

[Anonymous]

My new "dream" layout is a modest 14x9 "J" shaped dog-bone. It has only three true spurs on the short leg of the "J" and a busy yard on the long leg complete with roundhouse, a timesaver track, a three track ladder, and a few passing sidings. It has all the neat stuff I've always wanted in my layout. But at the end of the day, a dog-bone is just a loop with the middle section pinched together. Because of my plan I can do some operations and switching as well as setting all the turnouts so that the trains will run along the mainline in a continuous loop. I read all about people setting their height to approximately 50" give or take, and decided that I like to sit down in a chair and relax while running trains. So mine layout is the height of a standard table.

Trevor

[cmrproducts]

CNJ831

You are correct in that the vast majority of the layouts are Roundy-Round. I have seen this in the many layouts I have visited over the years.

I guess being in a Club has turned me sour on Roundy-Round running. After-all I have only been doing this for 20 years now! And how many times and one stand to see the same train again and again?

What makes me wonder (actually worry) is if the general hobbyist (by that I mean the lone wolf/closet hobbyist) is only running Roundy-Round and subsequently gets bored with the layout, hopefully they tear it down and rebuild it new/better than before. If they don’t, then do they just walk away from layout and leave it set?

Have we lost another model railroader?

This is what I fear and think is happening. We have discussed the hobby dying on these forums way too many times and never really come to any real proof. But could it not be that the hobbyist is losing interest in just watching the train run Roundy-Round and therefore just leaves the hobby altogether! And this is, to some extent, happening more often due to the rising cost of the Hobby in general.

If the Hobbyist is tired of the old layout and is thinking of rebuilding it and starts looking at the cost of rebuilding, they may be discouraged and decide to not rebuild it but instead just abandon the layout altogether! And this could be all due to the cost of materials.

Now it seems with the OPs orientated modelers that I have visited, they appear to be continually trying to refine their layouts. They will rebuild sections to make the local switching a little easier/complicated or what ever. But they always seem to be doing something.

Now don’t get me wrong but the Roundy-Rounders can and do get into super detailing their layouts. And some are or will never be satisfied with a scene but do they really run the trains for any amount of time or are they just detailing the layout more and more?

This may be an extreme to the other side, but the average modeler is the one that seems to be leaving the hobby. We (the members of the Club) have always tried to see what interests any new or potential modelers have when they are visiting the club or have first joined. More often than not they are the Roundy-Rounder type and have never thought about OPs or they really never understood what it was about.

Most all of the Club members have home layouts and they are all of the operations orientated type. Now a few do have the Roundy-Round mainline but the majority of the layouts are OPs orientated. Why?

Well after the Nube visits many of the layouts in the area they see that the layouts are OPs intensive and once they have spend some time trying out OPs they find that there is a lot of fun associated with OPs. And a few have replaced their dormant Roundy-Round layouts with an OPs orientated layout. Some have even stated that they finally found the real reason to be a Model Railroader.

Now there are still those that supposedly love Roundy-Round and do not come to any OPs sessions that the members have at their homes or if they do they just stand around looking for a while and then leave. This is their prerogative, it’s a free country. But then again they don’t spend much time at the Club during our many shows, open to the public, where they could spend hours doing the Roundy-Round running.

This is the modeler I am talking about and it is also the type that I believe makes up the vast majority of those that are leaving the hobby that we always talk about. Is there anything we can do about them? Probably Not! But it is not for the lack of trying on the part of the Club members showing them all sides of the hobby.

Just some random thoughts!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[BRAKIE]

All of my industrial switching layouts and the few roundys I have had has base design for the best operational scenario.
Back to the question..Do I miss roundy-roundys? I just wish I had the space for a 4x8 footer [:D]

[nbrodar]

I'm a roundy-rounder. But I've also made provions for some local switching work.

Being a Trainmaster in a major Class 1 terminal, I have very little interest in Operation. After a long day of cajoling crews, smoozing shippers, wheeling and dealing with the Division and System bosses, and batteling with the Power Bureau, all I want to do is build some scenery, or a car kit, and watch some trains run.

Nick

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama
Most of these many layouts have provision for continuous-running or loop-to-loop operation, for open houses, loco break-in, and "just watching them run". This is rarely an "either / or" question. Why, other than for the sake of whipping up controversy and posturing, is this being presented in this way?

Byron - If you consult the typical responses when the question of, "what sort of layout should I build?" or "what do you think of my layout plan?" arises on this forum, you'll see that most of the initial posters will decry any round-and-round design as naive, pointless, and a throwback to earlier times in the hobby. More often than not, the person posing the question is told a point-to-point, around-the-walls, operations-oriented, layout is the only one that makes any sense and anything else is a waste of time and space...totally without regard to what the particular hobbyists' interests may be. I saw such a thread just last week!

I, for one, have been overjoyed to finally see posters here get up the nerve to indicate many feel that designing a layout specifically around operations is not the be-all and end-all, of this hobby but rather the design should fit in with personal "druthers". The greater portion of hobbyists enjoy sitting back and just watching their trains run.

CNJ831

[cuyama]

Very puzzling. I've operated on many layouts here in the Bay Area and around the country. Most of them were designed for operations from the outset. I've designed a number of layouts intended for operations from the start.

Most of these many layouts have provision for continuous-running or loop-to-loop operation, for open houses, loco break-in, and "just watching them run". This is rarely an "either / or" question. Why, other than for the sake of whipping up controversy and posturing, is this being presented in this way?

Regards,

Byron

[tatans]

YIKES, this topic sure brought up some surprising responses, seems there are still a lot of the "rounders" out there. From some of the posts, many still enjoy watching trains, I think the key to a layout is to really think it out, and construct the single track with some imagination so the train appears in various different scenes rather than 'round and 'round, different levels, opposite directions, hidden approaches and exits, double track with a standing train beside it, etc etc there are many different scenes to construct so planning is very very important, even one (or two) switches(sorry-turnouts) can double the entire layout. A lot of thought must go in or you end up with the 'round the Christmas tree train.