Does anybody else miss the old "round and round" layout?

[jpwc50]

Continuous running capability is a "must have" for me because I Iike watching trains be they real or models.

[jwils1]

At my age I too like to sit most of the time. So, I run my 30" high layout from a desk chair where I have my controls and computer set up. I can even do my yard switching from the chair. I can stand and walk around if I want to but the only time I have to is when switching industries in one of my two towns using a cordless throttle.

My 6' x 18' space includes 3 loops and 2 reversing tracks so I can run continuously all over the layout if I want to. But I like switching too, so I have 10 industry sites plus the yard. My 3rd town has just the yard in it.

Don't have scenery yet but I like Texas Zepher's thoughts of having the trains hidden from time to time as they make there way around.

Jerry

[dinwitty]

A lot of older layout designes were made exactly with the round the round design.
Some may be small, some extravigant. They could feature some good operations as well, have passenger terminals, switching freight, and the operator mostly sat at one position. and the layout wasnt a perfect looping, it went up down , around with enough running for interest. You just ran your train around the loop a few times, then enter the next town via switch.

There are good things to be said about such a layout, but I would never make a simple loop, ever.

My shelf layout is planned point to point with cheating ways to continuous run.

[Anonymous]

Miss it? Heck, I'm looking forwards to it...

[cmrproducts]

We need more of the, I love to watch my trains run through the scenery types to help out at our club shows!

If watching the trains run through the scenery is so great; why is it that the members of the club (during a show) get so bored with setting there running the trains for 12 hours at a time. They are doing exactly what they like (roundy-round – watching it run through the scenery again and again) and they can change trains (as we have a number of passing sidings with complete trains ready to go).

BUT when they come to one of my 12 hr OPTUDs (OP Till U Drop) sessions I can’t get them to leave! And these are the same people! Pretty much says it all!

And reading the articles in the model magazines and notes here on the net, there are more and more modelers stating that they have torn down their old layout and are building a new one, Why? Bored with the old one if the truth be known. (and come to find out most of these are roundy-round mainline running layouts)!

Now I have nothing against those that like to watch the trains run. I like switching type of running. I can do scenery and scratch build buildings (which I have to do as I am building a Prototypical layout) but it is not the real fun part. I love to do switching of the cars.

Running of long trains just to watch them run through the scenery keeps my attention for OH! about 10 seconds, and then it is boring. Why? I really don’t know. Maybe it is because I have seen this same section of scenery a million times and it never changes. But the consist and the cars in the local switcher are completely different this time around. Now my switching challenge is going to be entirely different than it was with the last train I had.

With the Long train syndrome I am usually walking ahead of the train looking to be sure the turnouts are thrown for the proper direction. Am I watching my train, NOPE! Well I am, only to be sure that the caboose is still on the train. But other than this it is the same train I left with at the yard and it will be the same train I end up at the destination yard. And what really clinches the whole deal about being boring is that my Keypad goes into Power Save mode. Now why would that happen? Because I have not had to make any speed changes for a period of 3 minutes or so. Why? Because the train is on the long mainline run and there is no need to make changes!

Sort of clinches what I have been trying to say all along!

These are the observations from 50 plus years of being in the Hobby and 20 plus years as a member of a Club!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts
If watching the trains run through the scenery is so great; why is it that the members of the club (during a show) get so bored with setting there running the trains for 12 hours at a time. They are doing exactly what they like (roundy-round – watching it run through the scenery again and again) and they can change trains (as we have a number of passing sidings with complete trains ready to go).

BUT when they come to one of my 12 hr OPTUDs (OP Till U Drop) sessions I can’t get them to leave! And these are the same people! Pretty much says it all!

And reading the articles in the model magazines and notes here on the net, there are more and more modelers stating that they have torn down their old layout and are building a new one, Why? Bored with the old one if the truth be known. (and come to find out most of these are roundy-round mainline running layouts)!

Bob - While the situation with you and your club members is certainly not unique, it is nevertheless atypical of the hobby in general. As many posters here know, I have a great passion for the hobby's history and associated statistics and these tell a quite different story regarding "operations" and any supposed disinterest in round-and-round layouts.

From the early 1950's onward, MR has pushed the idea of operations...far more so than any of the other magazines. In spite of this, at least up through the 1990's, readers' surveys indicated that never more that perhaps 10%-15% of modelers bought into the idea seriously. Likewise, Linn Westcott had a most interesting article in MR many years ago that classified model railroaders' interests and the types of layouts they built. Westcott determined that "operations" oriented layouts/interest were but a small fraction of the total. The majority of classifications indicated a desire to see trains run or even had the trains secondary to the overall modeling aspect.

However, with the dramatic rise of the Internet and its forums a decade or so ago, we began to see a much more bias view of what the "average" hobbyist was doing. On-line surveys are highly selective in who they poll compared to the old magazine readers' surveys and rather than sampling a cross section of hobbyists, we see a younger, more tech-oriented, crowd, that is heavily influenced by the idea of operations that is often loudly proclaimed by a handful of posters as the only true purpose of model railroading. The vast majority of older, long established, hobbyists are minimally represented here as, by and large, they are not computer people or, at best, too limited in computer skills to participate fully. While you and I are indeed older and long in the hobby, I can't say that any of my 60-ish hobbyist friends are even on-line, let alone forum posters! So, if one can not see a true cross section of hobbyists today, it is impossible to judge what is the norm in the way of layouts.

Overall, everything I've been able to scrap together indicates that round-and-round layouts are still as common and popular as ever, and in the most liberal sense, probably amount to something like 75% of all pikes built today (and yesterday, for that matter). While most do include some switching ability (as they always have), few are truly operations oriented from first design to final execution. The moral here being, at least with regard to model railroading, don't take any facts and figure derive totally from on-line surveys, or based on a handful of individual posts, as truly representative of the state of the hobby.

And all these above conclusions come from a guy who indeed does a version of operations on his own pike. [;)]

CNJ831

[SilverSpike]

My layout design includes both mainline point to point and has options for continuous runs as well. The mainline is essentially a double dog bone loop that starts on the lower level and has two reverse loops one at the upper and one at lower level. I like having the option of being able to set out a consist or two and just have them run from one level to the other and back around again. And I can also have the option to have an op session too; there is also local switching available on both levels. And I also have built into the plan the option to run through freight operations to give the appearance of consists originating and ending at locations "off site." With these many options it seems that I should be able to keep it interesting for some time.

I have just begun building the benchwork for my lower and upper levels, you can see the layout plans on my Google pages website link listed below my signature in this post. It is essentially an around the room wall bracket benchwork design with an island peninsula forming a G shaped layout. I don’t like to limit myself to one scenario for operating my trains, and I still like to see them “round and round” too!

Since my wife and two sons have an interest in the trains too, I have built in these options to let everyone get into the action. Having the “round the loop” option gives them a great way to feel comfortable with getting introduced to the hobby. Over time they can work up to the intricacies of waybills and building consists and having “op sessions.”

Cheers,

Ryan

[dean_1230]

QUOTE: Originally posted by selector


At the end of the day, when you are turning off the power and the lights, and look back to see your creation, what will you think?

what do i think when i turn off the lights???

"man, that's an awful lot of pink dirt... i wonder how long before something will grow over it"

:-)

Seriously, my layout is 30 inches off the floor and is a 4x8 single mainline with a several spurs, a very small yard (two tracks) and an interchange track. I have no "dedicated" staging, but am planning a removable staging yard off the interchange track.

I've thought about a switching layout, but at times they seem like too much work . the kids like watching the trains go round as do i. i couldn't fathom not having that ability

Dean

[orsonroy]

A point to point layout is just fine, IF you have a LONG mainline (6+ scale miles) or IF you've only got room for a small switching layout (1x6 or so). But if you've got a mid-sized space, you're probably selling yourself short by NOT having some provision for continuous running.

I've been to MANY home layouts over the years, and the ones that get the most use are the single level half basement affairs that have at least one continuous running track. For all the words expended on operations-based layouts, the ones that I've seen (and I've seen some of the best) aren't used nearly as much as "conventional" home layouts, even ones that host five intense op sessions a month. Those layout owners seem pleased with what they've created, but it seems to me that they're missing one of the points of this hobby: watching the trains run.

Some people call me a rivet counter, and I might be. But I do acknowledge the fact that we're all just playing with little toy trains, and one of the joys in this hobby is the relaxing "fishbowl effect", where you can just turn the layout on, sit back, and watch things run. Just as I think that there's something odd about some freelancers, I also feel that there's something odd about a proto operations guy who never cracks a throttle on their own layout except during a once monthly op session (and sometimes not even then!)

My last layout was a 12x25 three level layout with a three scale mile long mainline. I made sure that I had continuous running on at least one of the levels. My new layout will be a 14x26 double decker, with a five mile main. I'm trying to figure out how to provide for continuous running on the current plan.

[tatans]

YIKES, this topic sure brought up some surprising responses, seems there are still a lot of the "rounders" out there. From some of the posts, many still enjoy watching trains, I think the key to a layout is to really think it out, and construct the single track with some imagination so the train appears in various different scenes rather than 'round and 'round, different levels, opposite directions, hidden approaches and exits, double track with a standing train beside it, etc etc there are many different scenes to construct so planning is very very important, even one (or two) switches(sorry-turnouts) can double the entire layout. A lot of thought must go in or you end up with the 'round the Christmas tree train.

[cuyama]

Very puzzling. I've operated on many layouts here in the Bay Area and around the country. Most of them were designed for operations from the outset. I've designed a number of layouts intended for operations from the start.

Most of these many layouts have provision for continuous-running or loop-to-loop operation, for open houses, loco break-in, and "just watching them run". This is rarely an "either / or" question. Why, other than for the sake of whipping up controversy and posturing, is this being presented in this way?

Regards,

Byron

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cuyama
Most of these many layouts have provision for continuous-running or loop-to-loop operation, for open houses, loco break-in, and "just watching them run". This is rarely an "either / or" question. Why, other than for the sake of whipping up controversy and posturing, is this being presented in this way?

Byron - If you consult the typical responses when the question of, "what sort of layout should I build?" or "what do you think of my layout plan?" arises on this forum, you'll see that most of the initial posters will decry any round-and-round design as naive, pointless, and a throwback to earlier times in the hobby. More often than not, the person posing the question is told a point-to-point, around-the-walls, operations-oriented, layout is the only one that makes any sense and anything else is a waste of time and space...totally without regard to what the particular hobbyists' interests may be. I saw such a thread just last week!

I, for one, have been overjoyed to finally see posters here get up the nerve to indicate many feel that designing a layout specifically around operations is not the be-all and end-all, of this hobby but rather the design should fit in with personal "druthers". The greater portion of hobbyists enjoy sitting back and just watching their trains run.

CNJ831

[nbrodar]

I'm a roundy-rounder. But I've also made provions for some local switching work.

Being a Trainmaster in a major Class 1 terminal, I have very little interest in Operation. After a long day of cajoling crews, smoozing shippers, wheeling and dealing with the Division and System bosses, and batteling with the Power Bureau, all I want to do is build some scenery, or a car kit, and watch some trains run.

Nick

[BRAKIE]

All of my industrial switching layouts and the few roundys I have had has base design for the best operational scenario.
Back to the question..Do I miss roundy-roundys? I just wish I had the space for a 4x8 footer [:D]

[cmrproducts]

CNJ831

You are correct in that the vast majority of the layouts are Roundy-Round. I have seen this in the many layouts I have visited over the years.

I guess being in a Club has turned me sour on Roundy-Round running. After-all I have only been doing this for 20 years now! And how many times and one stand to see the same train again and again?

What makes me wonder (actually worry) is if the general hobbyist (by that I mean the lone wolf/closet hobbyist) is only running Roundy-Round and subsequently gets bored with the layout, hopefully they tear it down and rebuild it new/better than before. If they don’t, then do they just walk away from layout and leave it set?

Have we lost another model railroader?

This is what I fear and think is happening. We have discussed the hobby dying on these forums way too many times and never really come to any real proof. But could it not be that the hobbyist is losing interest in just watching the train run Roundy-Round and therefore just leaves the hobby altogether! And this is, to some extent, happening more often due to the rising cost of the Hobby in general.

If the Hobbyist is tired of the old layout and is thinking of rebuilding it and starts looking at the cost of rebuilding, they may be discouraged and decide to not rebuild it but instead just abandon the layout altogether! And this could be all due to the cost of materials.

Now it seems with the OPs orientated modelers that I have visited, they appear to be continually trying to refine their layouts. They will rebuild sections to make the local switching a little easier/complicated or what ever. But they always seem to be doing something.

Now don’t get me wrong but the Roundy-Rounders can and do get into super detailing their layouts. And some are or will never be satisfied with a scene but do they really run the trains for any amount of time or are they just detailing the layout more and more?

This may be an extreme to the other side, but the average modeler is the one that seems to be leaving the hobby. We (the members of the Club) have always tried to see what interests any new or potential modelers have when they are visiting the club or have first joined. More often than not they are the Roundy-Rounder type and have never thought about OPs or they really never understood what it was about.

Most all of the Club members have home layouts and they are all of the operations orientated type. Now a few do have the Roundy-Round mainline but the majority of the layouts are OPs orientated. Why?

Well after the Nube visits many of the layouts in the area they see that the layouts are OPs intensive and once they have spend some time trying out OPs they find that there is a lot of fun associated with OPs. And a few have replaced their dormant Roundy-Round layouts with an OPs orientated layout. Some have even stated that they finally found the real reason to be a Model Railroader.

Now there are still those that supposedly love Roundy-Round and do not come to any OPs sessions that the members have at their homes or if they do they just stand around looking for a while and then leave. This is their prerogative, it’s a free country. But then again they don’t spend much time at the Club during our many shows, open to the public, where they could spend hours doing the Roundy-Round running.

This is the modeler I am talking about and it is also the type that I believe makes up the vast majority of those that are leaving the hobby that we always talk about. Is there anything we can do about them? Probably Not! But it is not for the lack of trying on the part of the Club members showing them all sides of the hobby.

Just some random thoughts!

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

My new "dream" layout is a modest 14x9 "J" shaped dog-bone. It has only three true spurs on the short leg of the "J" and a busy yard on the long leg complete with roundhouse, a timesaver track, a three track ladder, and a few passing sidings. It has all the neat stuff I've always wanted in my layout. But at the end of the day, a dog-bone is just a loop with the middle section pinched together. Because of my plan I can do some operations and switching as well as setting all the turnouts so that the trains will run along the mainline in a continuous loop. I read all about people setting their height to approximately 50" give or take, and decided that I like to sit down in a chair and relax while running trains. So mine layout is the height of a standard table.

Trevor

[Milwhiawatha]

my layout room is 16' X 9' basically the layout runs around the walls but its not all 2' wide section infact the becnhwork is all different feet its hard to imagine I know. I do have pull out sections due to sub pumps and the door way. I too am heavy younger bad knees from stocking so my layout is 37" off the ground and my second layer will be 24" above that. I know about the feet hurting I get gout etc.

[Anonymous]

I don't miss roundy's because I still use um'!

I guess my opinion and taste in MRR will be like those that have already stated they prefer roundy's. It is not that I prefer roundy layouts but rather I prefer layouts that have the best of both worlds.

I have a medium sized switching/operation area as well as a main line loop. I generally have a train running on the main line while I am doing extensive switching and short line operations on the other parts of my layout. Just another reason I use DCC..

This is what I like and after all it is my railroad. Too many 'experts' feel their way is the only way! After all this is a hobby.

[ModelTrainman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by caellis

I don't miss roundy's because I still use um'!

I guess my opinion and taste in MRR will be like those that have already stated they prefer roundy's. It is not that I prefer roundy layouts but rather I prefer layouts that have the best of both worlds.

I have a medium sized switching/operation area as well as a main line loop. I generally have a train running on the main line while I am doing extensive switching and short line operations on the other parts of my layout. Just another reason I use DCC..

This is what I like and after all it is my railroad. Too many 'experts' feel their way is the only way! After all this is a hobby.

me too!

[zgardner18]

My layout that I am designing will be the "dogbone" style, with a helix to bring it up to the second level. I will convert my 3rd car stall in my new house's garage and the best that I can do is a rap-around layout (To keep large radius curves) with a removable section by the man door. The second level will be a duck under (I'm still kind of young, so I can do that), but being the second level, it won't be all that low, but I am 6'2". The room will be 10.5x24 feet.

I like mainline running so of course my layout will be:
Come out of loop under helix on level one, mainline around the room up to the helix, enter helix, loop up helix, exit helix on second level. Hill up around the room to loop above helix, and back down again in the once traveled direction. It's all mainline with level one having a yard just as you exit the loop under the helix. The layout will be modeled after the old Northern Pacific Montana line from Livingston yard up Bozeman Hill. This is where I spent most of my time while I was suppose to be studying at school.

If this layout doesn't make since, email me and I will send you a PDF of my drawings.

The goal is to stand in the middle of the room and see the whole layout surround you. Oh, and I will have stageing under Level one.

[Anonymous]

Yes, I wouldn't be satisfied if I couldn't just watch the trains run.

[Anonymous]

If I had a point to point only, there would be a huge mess at one end. I get to screwing around with a switcher and forget about my mainline from time to time. My friends layout is a huge double kidney bean shape on two levels that cross over each other. He has a yard on one side of the room and another on the opposite side. We send trains back and forth Point to point and have usually two just running the mainline. We have wired it so we each have an emergency stop that shuts the whole thing down. If we arren't ready for it we just send it around again. We have done the, "Was that headed north or south??" North! (As he pulls the plug). We put index cards on the mains that runs through the yard indicating what direction we are running just to be safe. We got out some older engines once to see if we could successfully get a north bound run in before the southbound got back. Yeah we never did that again.

[SpaceMouse]

There are members of my club that are hard-core roundy rounders. They don't care about operations or any such hooey. They also park their trains on the A/D track and pull their engines making it so no one else can get in the yard. But let them run the 20 minute loop and they are happy as punch. There is a place for them in the hobby.

Like Byron said, this doesn't have to be a mutually exclusive thing. For me Ops and railfanning fill two different needs. When I railfan, I just set the trains in motions and kick back and think of all the scenery things I want to do.

But when I run trains, circles are boring. If I have a controller in my hand, I want to be be breaking down and classifying a train. I want to be switching industries and if I have to figure something out to make the switch so much the better.

Ideally, operations is a team sport complete with dispatchers, yard masters, helper engines, engineers, conductors and radio communications.

Like said before, Ops and railfanning fill two distinct needs for me. I want both.

[Anonymous]

First of all, designing for continous running and designing for operation are not exclusive goals, as some of these posts might suggest. Second, some of the biggest and best magazine- and museum- quality layouts have provisions for continous running. Granted some of that is to entertain the non-operational lay public and visitors, but it's there nonetheless. Third, whether a layout is designed for operation, running, or both, has no bearing on the current or final quality, finish, or level of detail. Sure, a loop is not "prototypical". Neither is a plastic locomotive.

Some of us have switching layouts not because we don't like loops, but because space constraints won't allow for them. Some of us have loops because we want longer "runs" than we would get if we built point-to-point. Some of us have 1000 square feet to work with and can do a little (or a lot) of everything.

[cmrproducts]

I think we are missing the point here.

It is not that we, the modeler, can not or should not have a Roundy-round layout BUT from my over 20 years of being in a train club is that those modelers have fun with a Roundy-round layout.

But again they soon lose interest in the layout, rip it down and MAYBE if they are lucky build another one. They get bored with JUST watching it make the one millionth lap on the ol’ 4x8.

What seems to keep the interest fresh is doing some type of OPs. Yes, you can still set the train in motion and work the yard but you are doing OPs.

It seems that a number of responders here are trying to give reasons why they do Roundy-round as there is some sort of need to defend what they are doing!? What ever you do is your business. If you are happy, Great!

But what about those that are just not quite sure. Could they maybe missing something? Could there be something else, other than just going Roundy-round? Maybe that missing thing is OPs!

Now I know a lot of modelers do not like OPs as they are only in the hobby to relax. Well I can surly find some cheaper way to relax. A six-pak and TV may be a LOT cheaper. But that is not what I do!

Also some will say they don’t like the stress of doing OPs! While there some OPs type layouts that are way too structured and everything has to be carried out by the rule book, our group does not work that way. We have fun and the Pin System of car movement is the easiest one to learn and if you make a mistake the so be it. Just drop the cars at the yard and the next train will get it moved. The Penn Central did it that way for years. And I am modeling the early CR so the practices will just carry over onto my layout.

I have operated on some OPs structured layouts and the OPs were intensive but then I love OPs. But this just proved to me that my method is still the best only because of the ease of use and the ability of the complete novice to be able to learn it in 5 minutes. It is simply following a color code. I have even had 8 and 9 year olds up and running radio DCC and doing OPs in 5 minutes. I have also gotten 75 year olds to be able to do the same in 5 minutes. So the system must be simple. And I think anyone that has ever operated on my layout will agree to that.

I didn’t build the thing to make like stressful but to have fun.

And this is where I am going with this. Those of us that are happy with the layouts we have and plan on keeping the design for then next 10 years, there is nothing I can say to you. BUT if you are not happy just running Roundy-round then OPs may be what’s missing in your hobby. And if you haven’t tried OPs then maybe you should!

You did not know what you were missing before you became a model railroader so don’t you think you may not what you are missing if you have not tried operations. And don’t think you can just try it one time. We all know that no one is comfortable trying something for the first time. You need to do projects, any project, more than a couple of time to begin to understand what is going on.

Just more Random Thoughts

BOB H – Clarion, PA

[Agamemnon]

I don't see it as an either/or position. My old layout had continuous along three separate loops and enough sidings and yards to keep a switcher busy for ages. The one thing it didn't have was realism, existing on what was IIRC a 5 by 9 foot table in 3-4 tangled levels of 15-18 inch curves and flex.

As I see it, a layout is a triad of sorts, with the following:

1. Continuous operation
2. Operational interest
3. Low space requirements

Two out of three fit on most home layouts. Getting all three requires special dispensation of space (converting the pool room, getting rid of the crum in the basement, parking outside, you name it). Unfortunately, I'm prohibited from converting the pool room, so I'll settle for limited switching capability and go with an overlapping double oval, one above the other, and as much sidings as I can.

[CNJ831]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts
It is not that we, the modeler, can not or should not have a Roundy-round layout BUT from my over 20 years of being in a train club is that those modelers have fun with a Roundy-round layout.

But again they soon lose interest in the layout, rip it down and MAYBE if they are lucky build another one. They get bored with JUST watching it make the one millionth lap on the ol’ 4x8.

What seems to keep the interest fresh is doing some type of OPs. Yes, you can still set the train in motion and work the yard but you are doing OPs.

It seems that a number of responders here are trying to give reasons why they do Roundy-round as there is some sort of need to defend what they are doing!? What ever you do is your business. If you are happy, Great!

But what about those that are just not quite sure. Could they maybe missing something? Could there be something else, other than just going Roundy-round? Maybe that missing thing is OPs!

A point I've always considered highly significant regarding the question of OPs, as it appeals to the average hobbyist, is that MR, the hobby's leading and most widely read magazine, has pushed the idea for more than half a century as essentially the way to run your layout. Yet, after all that time, the concept has never become mainstream. To me that speaks volumes about what most hobbyists are into model railroading for in the first place. Just as many did when they were kids, the majority of model railroaders seem to derive their pleasure from nothing more than the building of and seeing their trains run through a miniaturized landscape...a simple escape from the pressures of everyday life.

I note that the equivalent of OPs in other model-making hobbys is likewise of interest to only limited number of their participants (aircraft modeling, ship modeling, millitary model makers, etc.). I suspect that it takes a very specific mindset to derive pleasure from serious OPs and that for most, it's not really all that entertaining. Thus, the reason one sees people defend roundy-round layout designs is because that's specifically what they enjoy.

CNJ831

[BRAKIE]

Guys,What most modelers falsely believe is one can't have operations on a roundy layout or one needs a large layout with stagging yards..That is pure bull hockey taught by self proclaim "layout design experts" that needs to be shipped out in the next available gon.One doesn't need a basement size layout to enjoy operations..
Here is what one needs to do..First design your layout well fore going the normal thoughts of mountains,rivers etc,use your space WISELY on small layouts..Think smaller..A branch line,short line or a industrial switching road.
To many modelers today is caught up in the useless bigger is better layout thought and sit and dream,and dream and dream and dream of a layout that they may never have the room to build or in some cases the skill needed to build and maintain such a large layout.
I suspect that the roundy-roundy layout is still king of layout designs and will continue to be for the next 100 years.

[BRAKIE]

Part 2 [:D]

As far as operation I wonder how many that speaks out against operation has operated a layout or understand the meaning of operation?
I fully believe once again the "operation experts" has muddy the idea.If you use car cards/waybills that is a form of operation.You see one doesn't need time tables,fast clocks etc as taught by the "experts".
My prototype operations includes waybills/car cards,a small yard and lots of industries to switch..
How complex is that?

[cuyama]

It's surprising to me that anyone would feel threatened by someone else's enjoyment of a hobby. The culture of victimhood extends even to model railroading, it seems.

My experience and observation suggest that more people active in the hobby today operate than scratchbuild rolling stock. Probabably a greater percentage of active hobbyists operate than hand lay their track. But who cares? All of these activities are part of the hobby, along with just watching trains run and many other aspects. Different people enjoy these different activities to differing degrees and in different combinations.

I've been on-line discussing track planning since 1995 (beginning on Compuserve's pre-Web text BBS) and can't remember ever seeing the kind of venomous criticism of a non-Ops track plan that's been claimed here.

Returning to the topic of the thread and reiterating: track plans with operating potential for bonus fun after building often may also offer continuous-run.

Regards,

Byron