Does anybody else miss the old "round and round" layout?

[mondotrains]

Hi Guys,
I posted yesterday that my wife and I might be building a new house with the train room being almost 3 times what I have now. Oh boy, just what I've wanted for over 12 years! I'll probably have an L-shaped space about 26' along one wall and about 32' on the other.

You know that expression that "you've got to be careful what you wish for"? Now I know exactly what that really means. I'm actually "scared" of having all that space. Maybe because I'm 58 years old now and due to my weight, my knees and feet botther me when I stand for a long time.

My last layout built in 1994 was an Atlas plan; basically a large figure 8....but then I added a stub-ended yard to create some action there and then I added a penninsula that acted as essentially a "branch" from the figure 8 loop. The layout was about 38" high and I could sit in my easy chair and watch trains run around, over and over, just as I did as a kid, some million years ago.

Well, I dismantled that really neat layout in 2000 to create my current layout; the "dream" layout. Now, I have a double-ended yard, a double-track mainline, a turntable and engine house and much better operational capabilities. I even added backdrops to the 3 penninsulas, so that they are split into 2 scenes. Thus, when trains come out of the 6 staging tracks behind the layout, they can come in and appear to run through a scene only once and then into my yard. I built the benchwork around 54" high so that trains could be watched from a little below eye level. That view was touted as much better. I've got it all, right?

The only problem is, I miss those times when I could just sit and watch trains run around the whole layout.....just like I saw in those department store windows back in the 1950's and on my really first layout back in 1954.

Per my topic, does anybody else miss the "round and round". Now that we're moving, I've got to ask myself, do I want an operational layout that has penninsulas split into 2 separate scenes which enables trains to "run through a scene only once" or do I create that old "department store layout" like my last one? Is there a compromise? If I build the benchwork lower, that will accommodate my sitting in a chair to watch the trains.

Would an around the room layout maybe be the answer; not all the way around because I don't want to have to deal with a duck-under or removeable section? Thus, there wouldn't be any long penninsulas requiring backdrops. I probably will have enough room for a point-to-point layout, with a yard at each end. If I added a loop just past the yard at each end, then I would have "continuous running" and I could watch all the action from a chair located in the "middle" of the layout room.

Have I stumbled on an answer or are there some other ideas you can provide.

Mondo

[jeffrey-wimberly]

My layout is essentilly two loops, roundy-rounders with sidings, spurs and a small yard.

[SOU Fan]

My layout is a loop, with a couple industrial spurs...nothing fancy.....yet

[GAPPLEG]

Even though my layout is 12x16, the outer track, (the SP mainline) is just a round the room loop, I can start one on the main and just let it go. I enjoy it too. The inner track work is my ficticious shortline with all the switching, don't have to do it if I don't want to.[:D]

[jeffrey-wimberly]

Boy! We love our ficticious roadnames, don't we. One of mine is the Midland Gulf Railway.

[SpaceMouse]

I like to watch trains run. I find it relaxing to set them off and watch them go. Often, I un them while I'm working on the layout. But I love operations too.

So my next layout will be a point to pont with through running through staging to complete a circle.

[Texas Zepher]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains
building a new house with the train room being almost 3 times what I have now. ...
You know that expression that "you've got to be careful what you wish for"? Now I know exactly what that really means. I'm actually "scared" of having all that space.

I'm with you there. I've never had space for my own layout larger than 4x16 or so. Now that the retirement plans are in place it looks like I'll get a space 60x90 (an old gymnasium) for my layout. I've helped many others with their layouts but for my own - I'm lost in space.

QUOTE: a double-ended yard ... backdrops so they are split into 2 scenes ... staging tracks .... run through a scene only once ... benchwork round 54" high so that trains could be watched from a little below eye level. That view was touted as much better. I've got it all, right?

What you have is all the "trendy things" from the 1990s. Model Railroading is just like any other thing, there are some really good ideas that become "the thing" that a layout "has to have". If one looks at a sequence of old magazines about model railroading certain trends can be seen that come and go. many will remember the "real water" trend in the late 1950 and early 1960s. One was certainly a MR slacker if they didn't have "real water". Well where is that today? Often laughed at or at least looked upon with scorn. It was a trend.

Staging is a feature that many insist a layout has to have. I contend that is only needed if the layout calls for it. Our club layout has 8 staging tracks that someone "had to have". With our current operational scheme the trains just blast past them and we wish we would have put the space to better use. Why?, because our layout has real places for the trains to come from and go to. We don't need to "pretend" they are going anywhere. Had we used the staging area for a "real" place it would have been that much better (and no it is now impossible to change without completely redoing the rest of the layout).

I also dislike the really tall bench work. It is a great novelty but gets really old after a while especially when trying to work on the layout without breaking all the detailed scenery. If I want to see the trains a eye level I can bend down (or sit in a wheeled chair) a lot easier than I can lower the bench work to do maintenance.

QUOTE: I miss those times when I could just sit and watch trains run around the whole layout. ... I've got to ask myself, do I want an operational layout that has penninsulas split into 2 separate scenes which enables trains to "run through a scene only once" or do I create that old "department store layout" like my last one? Is there a compromise?

Nothing says that you have to follow every trendy thing that is going on in the hobby. Since you have experience you now know what it is that makes Model Railroading enjoyable for you. This is a great advantage over people coming in taking all this trendy advice not knowing if they would like something different or not.

I have an additional problem that my layout has to be "interesting" to the casual observer. That is going to mean many more running trains than is operationally expedient. I’m thinking about putting in two loops with zero turnouts just for this purpose. That doesn’t fit in anyone’s definition of a “good” layout.

[daniel1967]

With all due respect to "operations"... I would never construct a layout that does not include a "round and round she goes" scenario... Currently I am in the track laying process of the bottom level of a 2 level layout which includes 2 major yards, 3 interchanges, several industrial and mining sidings, carferry dock, and coal loading dock... basically, lots of intensive "operations"... A railroad needs a purpose! But, I can also have 2 "unmanned" trains" running in any direction simutaniously... Fun when I'm just sitting at the workbench and really fun for my lone wolf operating sessions... We're playing with toys!!! It's gotta go round and round[;)]

Dan, on the MOHEES CENTRAL

ps: with no staging!

[conrail92]

my layout plan is a double track mainline that runs around in a loop with a penisula for industrial switching a lumber mill and another industries. and a small mid size yard. and with my old layout i too enjoyed watchi trains running .

[MisterBeasley]

My layout is a free-standing table, 5x12 feet in HO. I would prefer a round-the-room layout, but that's the space I've got, so that's how I've made the most of it. I have not one but 2 round-the layout loops, plus some switching and engine service facilities. Since I almost always run the layout by myself, this gives me the opportunity to run my switching in such a way that it appears I'm interacting with a busy main line, even if it's just the same train coming around time after time. I have the best of two worlds - I can just sit and watch the trains run, or I can actively participate in a busy railroad with trains other than my own running all over the place.

If I did have a round-the-room, I would probably use some combination of dogbones and reverse loops to allow unattended continuous running. But, there would be yards and staging at the extreme ends so that I could run a more realistic operating session if I wanted to, simply by throwing the turnouts so the trains didn't come back.

As a side note, on my layout I have a lot of structures and terrain, so that the trains are always playing peek-a-boo with the operators. The loop effect is greatly reduced when it seems that the train disappears from view for a while, even if it does show up somewhere else a short time later. Tunnels and other forms of hidden return tracks are a good way to hide the roundy-round look and allow you to keep your continuous-running capability.

[railroadyoshi]

I feel it's important to have the capability for both. Design your layout point-to-point, but have a connection back. Is the problem not having a loop but having a loop that you don't need to move around a large space for? You might want to consider having your layout at a height where you can sit in a computer chair and move around. Or, perhaps include a smaller loop in one section.

In a previous layout I designed, Most of the layout was linear, but I designed one section where the line wraps around itself and contorts to provide visual interest. You might want to consider such an area.

An idea that I never previously thought about is widening a helix so that it seems like individual scenes wrapped around. This could be a great spot just to sit and watch the trains, and could be easily done in your space. This is especially nice when the area is well secluded from the rest of the layout. Ace Cutter, whose layout was featured in GMR2006, had this feature.

Best of luck.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: ...does anybody else miss the "round and round"?

I don't miss it......... because that's pretty much what my layout is! It's hard not go round and round on a door (note to nitpickers, I said "hard", not "impossible").

There's a slim chance I'll get more space and have a chance to build one last layout (I'm 59). If I do it will be an around-the-walls type with some sort of moveable bridge so I don't have to duck under. It will definitely have continuous run capability. Watching those dudes go around, with that low background noise lulling you, is a great relaxer.


Regards

Ed

[davekelly]

Mondo,

If you like "round and round" build a "round and round." No matter what folks may think the "right" way is, my thought is that if you aren't enjoying it, you aren't doing it right!

Back to your question. I don't miss the round and round layouts, although I think a continuous run option is a top priority for the times I just want to watch the trains runnin'
What I do sometimes miss, however, is the time in my life when a single, out of scale, moving way to fast train going around and around a circle of three rail track was big time fun.

[Vampire]

I love to watch 'em run too. My layout will be a point-to-point branch line that interchanges with the B&O. In my case the B&O will be a loop-to-loop with one end (the interchange point) sceniced and the other in staging, so I can have a little of the round & round effect if desired.

I can also go up to my home office, which has 2 HO tracks, one above the other, running around the walls. Loads of enjoyable round & round action there!

[nucat78]

I don't care for round-n-rounds unless there's a divider down the middle to make it look like there are two (or more) scenes. But I do think a continuous run option is a good thing if you can fit it in.

I am working on an L-shaped roughly 7ft X 7ft X 2ft wide N-scale switching layout. I thought long and hard about trying to work in a dogbone for continuous running, but it doesn't look like I'll be able to do that, even with 11-inch radius curves. Now if I finish my basement someday and move the layout down there...

If it's a nostalgia thing, why not build an O-27 or O-scale 4 X 8 oval like a lot of had as kids? If there are grandkids someday, they'll love it. You can still build an around-the-walls N or HO shelf layout with return loops or a continuous run option.

[fiatfan]

I don't miss it. When I built my current layout, I incorporated a cutoff to allow for roundy-round for two reasons.

First, it allows me a way to break in locomtives with out constant supervision.

Second, it allows me to put on a demonstration for friends and relatives who wouldn't really appreciate an hour long operating session.

My son and his family are visiting from out of town and we had a 10 minute seesion in the basement which consisted of my grand daughter running each of the enigines aroud the room a few times.

The one bright spot in the family is my newest grandson. One of his first words was wooo-wooo (or is that two words?) Anyway, he was here last month and we had to drag him out of the basement kicking and screaming. Not bad for a kid who won't be two until August! He shows great promise.

But I digress...

I don't miss it but yeah, there are times when it's nice to have.

Yom

[mondotrains]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Texas Zepher

QUOTE: Originally posted by mondotrains
building a new house with the train room being almost 3 times what I have now. ...
You know that expression that "you've got to be careful what you wish for"? Now I know exactly what that really means. I'm actually "scared" of having all that space.

I'm with you there. I've never had space for my own layout larger than 4x16 or so. Now that the retirement plans are in place it looks like I'll get a space 60x90 (an old gymnasium) for my layout. I've helped many others with their layouts but for my own - I'm lost in space.

QUOTE: a double-ended yard ... backdrops so they are split into 2 scenes ... staging tracks .... run through a scene only once ... benchwork round 54" high so that trains could be watched from a little below eye level. That view was touted as much better. I've got it all, right?

What you have is all the "trendy things" from the 1990s. Model Railroading is just like any other thing, there are some really good ideas that become "the thing" that a layout "has to have". If one looks at a sequence of old magazines about model railroading certain trends can be seen that come and go. many will remember the "real water" trend in the late 1950 and early 1960s. One was certainly a MR slacker if they didn't have "real water". Well where is that today? Often laughed at or at least looked upon with scorn. It was a trend.

Staging is a feature that many insist a layout has to have. I contend that is only needed if the layout calls for it. Our club layout has 8 staging tracks that someone "had to have". With our current operational scheme the trains just blast past them and we wish we would have put the space to better use. Why?, because our layout has real places for the trains to come from and go to. We don't need to "pretend" they are going anywhere. Had we used the staging area for a "real" place it would have been that much better (and no it is now impossible to change without completely redoing the rest of the layout).

I also dislike the really tall bench work. It is a great novelty but gets really old after a while especially when trying to work on the layout without breaking all the detailed scenery. If I want to see the trains a eye level I can bend down (or sit in a wheeled chair) a lot easier than I can lower the bench work to do maintenance.

QUOTE: I miss those times when I could just sit and watch trains run around the whole layout. ... I've got to ask myself, do I want an operational layout that has penninsulas split into 2 separate scenes which enables trains to "run through a scene only once" or do I create that old "department store layout" like my last one? Is there a compromise?

Nothing says that you have to follow every trendy thing that is going on in the hobby. Since you have experience you now know what it is that makes Model Railroading enjoyable for you. This is a great advantage over people coming in taking all this trendy advice not knowing if they would like something different or not.

I have an additional problem that my layout has to be "interesting" to the casual observer. That is going to mean many more running trains than is operationally expedient. I’m thinking about putting in two loops with zero turnouts just for this purpose. That doesn’t fit in anyone’s definition of a “good” layout.

Hi Texas Zephyr,
You made some really good points and I appreciate that. When you say that your club didn't need staging, a bell went off in my head. If I make my layout a point-to-point, let's say with a New Haven yard at one end and another yard at the other, then you're right, I really don't need staging. I think that is what you're saying. I could have a couple of penninsulas branching off the around-the-room design, with maybe one being a wharf with all that potentially interesting scenery and maybe another being a branch to something else. Do most people with point-to-point design forego the staging?

Thanks again,
Mondo

[joeyegarner]

I have a couple of loops with with a siding, small yard and a couple of spurs. About 8X9 Upstairs in my shed behind my house. I prefer watching my trains run in circles...... I don't know much about operations though. Later this year I plan to build a new layout in the spare room here in the house. It should be about 10X12 around the room with a much larger yard and double track mainline, I want to have a passenger service as well as freight. Passenger train will be left to run most of the time while the freight will service one facility or another.

[fwright]

Mondo

I too am scared because the wife said to make my next layout (we're moving) a shelf layout, and I've never had anything but rectangular island layouts before - see my thread a couple of weeks ago about "no more 4x8s". I usually operate solo, so at most having one train circulating unattended while I switch with the other has been the general plan. Despite her objections, I will probably have an O/O27 two loop 4x8 as well until I establi***hat my kids (12 and 10) prefer HO or aren't interested in trains at all. I also plan to have a portable test track loop for breaking in my kit-built steam locos.

I see 3 scenarios that call for staging on layouts:

- when you have a multi-operator layout where using yards would be too slow or space consuming to support the number of trains to be operated on the layout during an operating session.

- when you have a single operator and you want to vary the consist of what is running unattended

- when you want on-layout storage for locomotives and cars that exceed the logical capacity of your layout.

Almost any other scenario or operational priorities would call for replacing staging with more mainline, scenes, or towns, IMHO. Note the schematic of a layout really doesn't affect the need or not for staging; the operational priorities do.

As for layout height, I design for sitting on a stool as my close-to-eye level rather than a lower chair. Stools take up less aisle space, store under the layout easily, and are easier to get into and out of. I can certainly understand the attraction of observing from a more comfortable chair, but I can live with the stool compromise. Especially when a shelf layout in a living room, family room, or bedroom is going to have to be reasonably high to look decent.

my thoughts, your choices
Fred W

[selector]

I love steam locomotives. I could stand for hours, bewitched by all that cycling metal, the hiss, the heat, the vibration, etc. The closest I can have to that and still keep the spiders and earwigs out is in a confined space with sound decoders.

I have heeded the warnings of the true modelers and operators here: even the die-hard roundy-round fan will have an off day when he/she wants something else to do with the trains. So I have a couple of spurs on my in-progress layout, and I will actually have a reasonable yard for the first time. BUT, I like watching steamers struggling with long loads up long sweeping grades with the occasional tree and structure blocking the view. I enjoy the vistas, and I enjoy watching trains sweep by at speed. It is hard to get that without a considerable length of loop. So, mine is a folded loop (typical, no?) that crosses over itself via a 5' tunnel.

At the end of the day, when you are turning off the power and the lights, and look back to see your creation, what will you think? That you addressed other people's concerns and druthers, or that you listened to your own inner voice and heeded it.

In my case, I did a bit of both.

[myred02]

My new layout is essentially one long rectangular table with a double oval of track with a few spurs and a yard integrated into the whole thing. The thing is, you either have to be very smart, watch what I'm doing with the wireless throttles (which are in my hand for 5 minutes and in the pocket on the facia for the rest of the session), or destroy the mountains to find a set of tracks runing underneith them to realize it is actually a big oval.

Like you said, ovals are great because you can sit back and watch your trains do their thing, just like being a railfan on their euphoric "perfect day." However, building a "functional" layout builds a sense of realism. It all boils down to what your personal preferences are.

Happy Railroading

-Brandon

[Anonymous]

I have a double track loop with spurs running in various ditections, also included is an end to end preserved mountain RR, guess I kind of have both.

[Anonymous]

I have a 9 x 5 that I use currently, which I will be building into a larger layout this summer, I purposely build it to a 36" height so I can sit and enjoy the trains. Evidently the people who want the 55" height must spend their entire day seated behind a desk. After working on my feet for years I find it more relaxing and enjoyable. If height is for you that's fine, but you should create the environment that is best for you and no one else. When my son was three I built a layout 24" off the floor and him and I played with it on his level. It will be one of the most memorable times I had in my life.

[on30francisco]

My layout is built around the perimeter of a small room so besides using space efficiently and having larger radii, I can also run the trains continuously. I mostly enjoy building very detailed structures, rolling stock and other items for the Large Scale portion of the layout and scenic items such as trestles, bridges, mountains etc for the HO part. Besides 45mm LS, I have a Gn15 industrial line. Part of that line is shared by the HO trains since they both run on 16.5mm gauge track (HO). Besides switching and running point-to-point, I sometimes like to kick back and watch the trains go round and round

[ModelTrainman]

I have continuous run....... I sort of like continuous run!

[IRONROOSTER]

One advantage of a high layout - mine is 58" is that you can have another one underneath. For a couple years I had some Lionel trains on a table running underneath the main layout. They're temporarily stored while I make some changes, but I expect to have them back out soon.
Enjoy
Paul

[ARTHILL]

Sounds like I'm not the only one who wanted a loop around the room to be the basis of opperations. Some of the best layouts I have seen are basiaclly a loop around a room with al kinds of industry along the way. Most of the people I have seen who have point to point have such because do not have the space for at least one loop.

[tcf511]

The layout I'm building now is 14 x 16 with a double track mainline and some industrial spurs. The grandkids (and I) like to watch more than one train run at a time. A big old loop allows them to carefully operate the trains as well without quite so much attention from granddad.

[Anonymous]

Other than when I was a kid, from pre-teen days, I've never owned a roundy-go-roundy. All my subsequent model railways have been point to point.

However, the next time I build I'm planning to have a least the main staging as though staging. This will give me the opportunity for continuos running but it'll really there for operational purposes.

[Paul3]

My 25' x 50' layout will eventually have a loop at each end, but for now it's just point to point, and has been so for a couple years. The only reason why I want loops is so that I can just run a train to break it in or to run one for visitors without having to change ends all the time.

I would not use my loops for operations.

Do I miss the "roundy-round"? Not really. I get bored so fast just watching the trains go around and around and around... Ho-hum. Zzzzzzzzzzz. Um, sorry, must have dozed off there... [;)] Even at my club, I don't run trains all that much. Just too dull.

During an operation at my club, however, it's all exciting. There are 22 trains run in 2 hours on two divisions, with two dispatchers, a Trainmaster, and a dozen engineers. In fact, we've got an operation on Monday that I have to prepare. When I run my home layout or at the club, I have to have a purpose. I must have a Train Order or a switchlist or I might as well be playing TrainSim.

Mondo,
My layout is point to point, and I use staging. If you're doing realistic operations, I don't see how you can do it without staging. All RR's (with few exceptions) connect to the continental rail network at some point. You just can't have a Northern Pacific boxcar bounce back and forth between Boston and New York without ever going home...at least you can't if you want to be realistic. Per diem charges alone would bankrupt your RR. [:)]

I use my staging yard just feet away from Providence to represent New Haven's Cedar Hill and all connections to the west...to Maybrook, to Harlem River and to Bay Ridge. My cars from Boston and Providence simply have to go somewhere, and my staging yard is that place.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************