UP vs Model Railroaders This Madness has to end. (Lawyers I want options)

[rolleiman]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

Mr. Wolf has a team of very skilled and first class lawyers working for him. No sweat.

Sorry but as big as your boss's ego is, UP has much deeper pockets, more lawyers, and probably better ones at that.. The kind of savage lawyers that'll slap mth's around the courtroom just for the fun of it.. The licensing requirements have been known for years and apparantly your boss chose to ignore them. As someone stated earlier, a few hours of legal time will cost UP far more money than they'll ever gain from us train nuts. They've been in business well over 100 years and I don't think they're going anywhere anytime soon.. MTH is but a very tiny player in the business world scheme of things. Think what you like about UP but my money is on them in this matter..

Jeff

[BRAKIE]

Only a child would post a poll over something they have absolutely no control over.UP is well within its rights to protect the its Corporate imagine.Ask any first year law student.


Student of Big Sky Blue,Your comment:
==============================

"Something Needs to be done before I start considering assassanation as a viable option. (Yes I am that angry over this. ) "
=================================
can be taken as a terroristic threat to do harm and you could be arrested on Federal charages...Think twice before typing threats.

[davekelly]

But will the UP lawyers be able to get to court without using 1mph speed control of their cars? Hmmmmmmmmm.

[rrgrassi]

Just quit buying anything that is related to UP and it's fallen flags that it swallowed up.

Actually, the model makers stand to make more money on this than UP. The makers should have actually eaten the cost as part of doing business. I understand the licensing thing. I just think that Companies should not charge for licensing unless it is a manufactured item that they hold a patent on.

[Anonymous]

Its not so much the money that bothers me. CSX has a licencing policy. But they aren't {dougnut} holes with it. But the invasion of privacy. Why does Union Pacific need to know things like business strategies for Union Pacific models, including marketing budgets, manufacturing details, distribution channels, and sales goals. Its not like Union Pacific is on the board of MTH, Athearn, Lionel or even Walthers for that matter.

It is reassuring to know that the thing to do is just sit on our duff and let our rights slowly be stripped away one by one. How long is it going to be before UP goes through the list of model railroader subscribers and suppenas a list from everyone of models of any and all Union Pacific and absorbed roads locomotives and rolling stock we may have. Demands a detailed description of how these models are being used in operating your model railroad, and demands a track plan of your layout so they can insure that your depiction of their railroad and its operations is in line with corporate policy. And I am sure that by the time they do this, They will have trade marked and copywrited their entire right of way and you will have to pay a licence and maybe an ongoing royalty to depict Union Pacific Operations on your layout.

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
Student of Big Sky Blue,Your comment can be taken as a terroristic threat to do harm and you could be arrested on Federal charages...Think twice before typing threats.

"before I start" are the operative words there.

And as for being a terroristic threat, I don't care. This country is so messed up in how it does things anymore I am strongly considering leaving it. Glad to know that if you make more than 30 million dollars a year. You are well taken care of by the powers that be. The common stiffs never were embraced by the republican party, and they have been abandoned by the deomocrats. So whats the point, However make 30 million a year, the democrats will probably consider you common eneugh for them to be at your side. I am sure the that the cost of entry for the republicans is like 60 million because they have to be eletist pigs. But hey its only money right.

So if the FBI show up at my door. (I would assume it would be them since they are the federal law enforcement agency that have offices in this town) I will go quietly eneugh. But not to worry. I am sure me and bubba and me will be the two best lovers the world has ever seen. Hell Maybe me and bubba can make a cardboard model railroad in our cell complete with rubberband powered locomotives. If I am really lucky maybe I can sneak in some real model trains from the "outside" Or convice the warden to start a prison model railroad club.

But all I want to do is remain a private citizen. Guess I need to make 100 million a year for that.

Disgruntledly yours,

James

[Anonymous]

I guess stUPid can't move enough trains (congestion?), lost enough business to BNSF, etc. Hey, they gotta find some way to make some money. Maybe they will put all these hundreds of dollars they make off model RR manufacts to use by paying for another study on how to efficiently run switching yards. Or maybe not.

[Anonymous]

In all seriousness, why the heck is it no other RR is making a big deal out of this model licencing thing? Perhaps these other RR have bigger fi***o fry, like, maybe concentrating on running a functioning, efficient railroad system? Just a thought.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

With MTH being the premier model railroading company, UP doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell beating them. Mr. Wolf has a team of very skilled and first class lawyers working for him. No sweat.

That would had me gigeling. Stupid MTH guy. We know you work for them and don't want to see your precious company go down the tubes.

[AntonioFP45]

Sorry guys, Student.

With all due respect, while this issue is annoying at worst........it's being blown extremely out of proportion.

UP can no more get a list of customers with UP models than GM can find out who owns GM model cars. (Hmmmmmmmmm. Maybe they want to know that I have two scale models of Pontiac Trans Ams![:p][:o)]). Nobody's rights in this case are being eaten away.

Student, if you wi***o move out of the U.S, you're going to find that there's problems in every country on the globe. My sister-in-law lived in Europe for several years. Many services are government subsidized, however Gas is high, cost of living is high, crime is high in many area, criminals are slapped on the wrists, and taxes are high. She disliked this country before.........now she's more than happy to be back.

....If you want to get UP locos and cars for your layout and pay the extra $1.00 $3.00 or whatever than go for it. If not.......then don't.

I'm going to continue enjoying this hobby and will continue to include UP equipment in my fleet. If a reputable manufacturer ever produces a decent plastic HO U50 in UP.....I'm going for it.

Why don't we stop stressing over this and enjoy our trains!

[Anonymous]

I'm not sure that the IP issue is as clear-cut as some indicate. My reason (having been involved in a couple of trademark cases as an expert witness, but I am NOT a lawyer) is that UP allowed model companies to reproduce their logo for decades without interference. Be that as it may, with their deep pockets they'll undoubtedly prevail; a great deal of commercial litigation revolves around who can best bear the pain of the legal bills (lawyers, feel free to comment).

They do not need to go through all this rigamarole if their only intent is to protect their logo and trademark; a quite simple standardized agreement no longer than three pages in length would do perfectly adequately.

To me, as a management consultant, their heavy-handed approach has either of two likely sources (not necessarily exclusive):

1. When companies are as bad as UP, at managing their core business, it is common to look to sidelines like this for a few bucks in incremental revenue.

2. Some senior manager read an article in the business press about making money from licensing products and got a bee under his/her bonnet about it.

[davekelly]

Rails,

Several good points. Unfortunately the one that can better bear the costs generally has a better chance of prevailing. Related to this is that the more well-heeled party can afford a "its the principal of the thing" case.

A person here once had a link to go to the CSX licencing agreement and the darn thing was one page front and back. Very simple to fill out and if I remember correctly it actually used simple words. The UP agreement, to be honest, seems a little like a surgeon doing a toncilectomy (sp?) through the rectum. While I don't have all the info, it is my understanding that UP wants x percent of the price of UP stuff sold or a percent of the manufacturers total output. Under the first option, it is my understanding that UP wants the money upfront. Perhaps they believe a manufacturer won't be around by the end of the year to make payment. In any case, the only way to verify all of this is to go through business records ad naseum. While it may seems that it would have been alot easier to say something like "at the end of every quarter submit ___ for each UP thing sold during that quarter" there still needs to be a way to audit the thing - thus the need for business records.

To be honest, if a client were to come to me with this situation I would most likely advise to just work with the manufacturer and come up with some solution that wouldn't require financial analysis. I'm sure UP spends more money in going through all the information than it brings in. There are many ways to handle licensing. I once figured that the CSX licencing fee is pretty much the same as the UP agreement. Why is it that there is no CSX backlash? Probably because they handled the issue on a friendly face to face exchange between the two parties. It's funny how being mean and nasty can often times bring about a more favorable short term result, but a really terrible long term result.

I believe your "likely source" number 2 is probably closer to actuality than you may think. I don't know any attorney that would advise a client to do something that would cost them more than it returns. I also do not know how the financial guys are justifying the expense given the returns, so perhaps your reason number 1 is correct.

In any event, I would agree with the statement that UP has the right to protect its property. I do not, however, agree with the way they are handling it - both from a personal view and a lawyer view. I'm sure somewhere in the UP corporate office is a guy who is a "hire the meanest toughest lawyer you can find to pursue this into the ground." My former boss loved companies that were run by folks like this. They would eventually hire him to represent them in bankruptcy.

[vsmith]

What I love is that MTH will likely cause Uncle Pete to spend $3 million dollars in laywers fees in order to get their $3 an engine fee.

[Anonymous]

UP has the right to protect their name. What's so wrong with that? What is so upsetting about UP wanting to do what they feel is best for their stockholders?

and enough with the stUPid! I'd like to think UP is one of the better railroads out there. Sure they have their share of problems but, all railroads do, it's a part of the job. If you think you know how to solve these problems then call UP and let them know. They are hiring ya know.

[edkowal]

This is all a case of a subgroup of model railroaders getting into a snit because they've been suddenly awakened to how it works in the rest of the world. For years, model railroad manufacturers were able to produce models with other companies logos on them without paying fees to those companies. They were thus able to either, produce these models for less, or, realize a greater profit from those sales, or both. Now, UP and other railroads finally realize that they should be collecting part of the profits being realized from the sale of their company image by somebody else, and folks are getting all apoplectic.

Look at Coca Cola, as an example. You can't produce those collector items or even produce a decal of a Coca Cola sign, without paying a license fee, or you'll receive a cease and desist order. It's the same principle here, with the modifying condition mentioned by rails5 above.

Plus, as has been alluded to in other posts, it would appear that the licensing cost demanded by UP per item may in fact be _less_ than the premium that is being charged by model railroad manufacturers for UP items. So it may be that our friends the model railroad manufacturers are realizing a bonus by charging more for use of the logo than they're paying out. Who should you be getting upset at here?

-Ed

[AntonioFP45]

Ed,

You have a realistic grasp of how the corporate world functions!

10-4.

[Pruitt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

It is reassuring to know that the thing to do is just sit on our duff and let our rights slowly be stripped away...

Get real! What rights? You can run all the UP stuff you want. Even if UP didn't allow any manufacturer to use their trademanrks, you still can, for personal use only. All you'd have to do is decorate the locos and rolling stock yourself. NOBODY is telling you you can't. Your rights are being stripped away? Sounds like an argument a child porn dealer might try and make. Pathetic!

QUOTE:

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE
Student of Big Sky Blue,Your comment can be taken as a terroristic threat to do harm and you could be arrested on Federal charages...Think twice before typing threats.

And as for being a terroristic threat, I don't care. This country is so messed up in how it does things anymore I am strongly considering leaving it.

Don't let the door hit you in the fanny on the way across the border, buckwheat! And you'd better hurry - the Feds take threats like the one you made very seriously these days.

You make it embarrassing to be from Wyoming.

[emdgp92]

What rights are we giving up here? I'd rather pay an extra dollar or two for a model...than not be able to buy them at all!

...and lets quit calling UP stupid, ok? They weren't the only ones with trains that were "Usually Parked." NS and CSX ran into the same thing when Conrail was split up.

[TomDiehl]

The mathmatics of this are very interesting.

Taking from examples given above:

Athearn SD40 model carries a $90 retail price for all road names, but they're going to charge an extra $10 for the UP decorated ones. 3% of $90 is $2.70 which is to be paid to the Union Pacific, so where does the other $7.30 go? Plus if you read the licensing agreement (bottom of page 4) the royalty is based on the WHOLESALE price, not retail, so the amount paid to the UP will be even LESS than $2.70.

Sounds like the accusations of "profiteering" are aimed at the wrong company.

[davekelly]

Tom,

You silly guy. Why are you bringing fact into this? You take all the fun out of bashing!!

Seriously,

I remember several months ago I did a similar calculation and came to a very similar conclusion. I've never had a beef with the licensing. If anything, for me it was the way UP went about it - but that is neither here nor there. Of course maybe the manufacturers are adding in a little to cover the administrative costs of handling the licensing, but I agree it does sound a little steep to me.

[TomDiehl]

If you read the licencing agreement (there's a link in James's [lotus098] post), you'll see that the UP is trying to protect themselves from any lawsuits. Taken to ridiculous levels (which some ambulance-chasing lawyers are known to do) say someone was killed by being bashed over the head with an Athearn locomotive, that happens to be painted and lettered for the UP. The AC lawyer might perceive that the UP has "deeper pockets" than the model manufacturer. So who do you think will be named in the lawsuit?

Besides, as I see it (and I'm sure the UP does), the administration costs of this will exceed any money taken in for these fees.

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

Taken to ridiculous levels (which some ambulance-chasing lawyers are known to do) say someone was killed by being bashed over the head with an Athearn locomotive, that happens to be painted and lettered for the UP.

Of course what does that say about the jurors that believe it? [:)]

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

The mathmatics of this are very interesting.

Taking from examples given above:

Athearn SD40 model carries a $90 retail price for all road names, but they're going to charge an extra $10 for the UP decorated ones. 3% of $90 is $2.70 which is to be paid to the Union Pacific, so where does the other $7.30 go? Plus if you read the licensing agreement (bottom of page 4) the royalty is based on the WHOLESALE price, not retail, so the amount paid to the UP will be even LESS than $2.70.

Sounds like the accusations of "profiteering" are aimed at the wrong company.

Tom,Cheap attack but lacks facts like all cheap attacks.Athearn hasn't even announce the SD40 in UP!

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=sd40

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

The mathmatics of this are very interesting.

Taking from examples given above:

Athearn SD40 model carries a $90 retail price for all road names, but they're going to charge an extra $10 for the UP decorated ones. 3% of $90 is $2.70 which is to be paid to the Union Pacific, so where does the other $7.30 go? Plus if you read the licensing agreement (bottom of page 4) the royalty is based on the WHOLESALE price, not retail, so the amount paid to the UP will be even LESS than $2.70.

Sounds like the accusations of "profiteering" are aimed at the wrong company.

Tom,Cheap attack but lacks facts like all cheap attacks.Athearn hasn't even announce the SD40 in UP!

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=sd40

Maybe you need to read the whole post, especially the second line.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

Taken to ridiculous levels (which some ambulance-chasing lawyers are known to do) say someone was killed by being bashed over the head with an Athearn locomotive, that happens to be painted and lettered for the UP.

Of course what does that say about the jurors that believe it? [:)]

Just about the same thing they would say about any other law suit that a company gets sue from morons that hurt their selves through stupidity and sues.
Nobody is liable these days for their moronic acts...I am shocked that nobody has sued a model manufacturer because they got hurt by doing a stupid act while enjoying the hobby..

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

The mathmatics of this are very interesting.

Taking from examples given above:

Athearn SD40 model carries a $90 retail price for all road names, but they're going to charge an extra $10 for the UP decorated ones. 3% of $90 is $2.70 which is to be paid to the Union Pacific, so where does the other $7.30 go? Plus if you read the licensing agreement (bottom of page 4) the royalty is based on the WHOLESALE price, not retail, so the amount paid to the UP will be even LESS than $2.70.

Sounds like the accusations of "profiteering" are aimed at the wrong company.

Tom,Cheap attack but lacks facts like all cheap attacks.Athearn hasn't even announce the SD40 in UP!

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=sd40

Maybe you need to read the whole post, especially the second line.

Perhaps you should check the prices first before yelling "foul"..I still see no real proof of a $100.00 UP SD40..Nor do I see a $100.00 UP SD40-2.

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=SD40+RTR&CatID=THLD&RN=UP

[TomDiehl]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

The mathmatics of this are very interesting.

Taking from examples given above:

Athearn SD40 model carries a $90 retail price for all road names, but they're going to charge an extra $10 for the UP decorated ones. 3% of $90 is $2.70 which is to be paid to the Union Pacific, so where does the other $7.30 go? Plus if you read the licensing agreement (bottom of page 4) the royalty is based on the WHOLESALE price, not retail, so the amount paid to the UP will be even LESS than $2.70.

Sounds like the accusations of "profiteering" are aimed at the wrong company.

Tom,Cheap attack but lacks facts like all cheap attacks.Athearn hasn't even announce the SD40 in UP!

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=sd40

Maybe you need to read the whole post, especially the second line.

Perhaps you should check the prices first before yelling "foul"..I still see no real proof of a $100.00 UP SD40..Nor do I see a $100.00 UP SD40-2.

http://www.athearn.com/Search/Default.aspx?SearchTerm=SD40+RTR&CatID=THLD&RN=UP

And perhaps YOU should read "Taking from examples given above::

In particular page 1 post 7 by a user named "dingoix"

Ironically, he seems to be trying to ba***he UP with the "prices I need to check."

[TomDiehl]

And in case you're unable to go back to page 1:

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix

QUOTE: Actually BNSF does require licensing permission

i fiqured that -but stUPid goes overboard with it- list price for the new Athearn Sd40-2 is $10 higher for the stUP one compared to the BNSF one.

[Tracklayer]

I say go after UP and make an example out of them... If they didn't run around here, I probably wouldn't even model them.

Tracklayer

[Anonymous]

I havn't had time to read all the posts, so if this has been suggested sorry. If we all pull together and just boycott there product for this reason than maybe the money grap might stop. It would not hurt the manufacture because they would just build other road names until U.P. backed of. After all way beat a dead horse. Sometimes we have to do har***hings to be heard. Anyways it would get the point acrooed of the consumer. Just a thought guys.

[cjcrescent]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TomDiehl

And in case you're unable to go back to page 1:

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix

QUOTE: Actually BNSF does require licensing permission

i fiqured that -but stUPid goes overboard with it- list price for the new Athearn Sd40-2 is $10 higher for the stUP one compared to the BNSF one.

Tom;
I understand that you're using dingiox price quotes as an example but it doesn't help if the "quotes" are wrong.

MSRP off of Athearns OWN web site.

Please note the difference in price,$5.00 not $10.00. Plus the kits are even cheaper.

UP SD40-2 $84.98 RTR
UP/Desert Victory SD40-2 RTR $79.98
Other Road names vary between $79.98 & $84.98
Kits ANY roadname $56.50

If dingiox is paying $100.00 for an RTR Athearn SD40-2, which depending on the road name is 15-20% ABOVE MSRP, & almost 100% above kit MSRP, then I got a bridge I'll sell him cheap.

There hasn't been an SD40 announced in UP , but MSRP is $89.98 for what road names have been announced.

We all know that the street price will be lower.