UP vs Model Railroaders This Madness has to end. (Lawyers I want options)

[Anonymous]

I propose that when we have an open house or show where we run our UP items that we bill UP an adversting fee. I feel this would only be proper and fair. I mean after all we are putting their name and logo before the purchasing public. Phil

[emdgp92]

It's not just UP that's doing this. I can see that they want to protect their trademark...and I don't have a problem with that. I *do* have a problem with some companies that go beyond that. Take a look at any Chevy, Pontiac, or GMC model kit to see what I mean. Not only does GM protect its logo, the car name, but they even go so far as to protect the body style as well! Overboard? I think so. It's all about money, folks. They do it because they can get away with it. It's only a matter of time before the rest of the industry starts doing the same thing. With that said, I don't let it bug me. Without the licensing agreements, we'd have a seriously small selection of models to play with.

[rrinker]

I fully agree that UP has a right to protect their trademark. A basic low-cost licesne fee is one thing, howerver. According to the one UP/MTH article, UP also wants information on your marketing budget and manufacturing details. Don't you think the fee and seeing the final product would be enough to see that the UP trademark is being properly used? Why all the other busness disclosure?

--Randy

[bcammack]

The purpose of what is happening with UP and other railroads is that their Intellectual Property lawyers have to justify their existence on the annual P&L statement. "See! We saved you six million dollars in diminished I.P. value by sueing that mom&pop operation into oblivion!" Of course it's all intangible, but that is how the game is played.

If they were truely concerned about protecting the quality and use of their trademarks, they'd charge something like $1,000 per year to cover the program's administrative costs and be done with it.

Demanding the right to crawl through a licensee's books and take "a piece of the action" is absolutely profit motivated and with the incredible disparity between UPs cashflow doing what they're actually in business to do and what they get from licensing to the hobby industry are the principle reasons that it irritates people actually in the hobby.

It truely is like taking kid's lunch money.

[davekelly]

I'm convinced. UP has really ticked me off. Starting now I am not going to ride any UP passenger trains nor am I going to ship things via UP. If we all do this, then we'll see things change.

[simon1966]

Every company has the right to protect its name. For example, if I decided to get into the scale model laser kit business and produced a model of a building and called it an MTH factory, complete with MTH logos on signs and billboards of actual MTH products, I would anticipate a polite cease and desist letter. No business can expect to profit from the name of another individual or company without compensation or agreement. Some companies have traditionally been very aggressive about this, others less so. Model RR manufacturers have seemingly been able to profit from producing the names and likeness of the railroads for decades without compensation to the brand owners. I don't blame the RR's at all, I am more amazed that things went on for so long without this happening.

[Anonymous]

As I recall in the late 1960's or early 1970's a bridge colapsed in West Virginia or Ohio. The bridge was about 100 years old, long past any real or implied warantee. United States Steel was sued sucessfully not because they had supplied the steel involved in the original construction of the bridge, which they had not, but rather for an advertising slogan used by USS at the time, "We're involved". Not long after this USS became an "energy" company, abandoning their traditional steel business.
The point is that the UP licensing extends the implied liability for poor product not only to just the manufacturer, but also to the licensing company, in this case UP. Before anyone gets too excited by this possibility, pause to think it through like a lawyer. The best defensive position in this instance is to protect the Trademark by refusing to grant any licensing use at all, thus no UP decorated loco's, rolling stock, or structures. By extension would CSX, GE or EMD be far behind? What would happen to the models we all love?
As I commented in another topic, this is one of those hard choices, MTH or UP. A real lose lose situation.
My [2c]
Will

[loathar]

The end of a lawsuit against the train mfg's wouldn't be a $5 drop in the price of UP stuff, It would be a $5 increase on all other road names so they could say "see? we're not charging more for UP stuff."
I'm sure that days not far off.

[loathar]

QUOTE: Originally posted by ereimer

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

Something Needs to be done before I start considering assassanation as a viable option. (Yes I am that angry over this. )

your lawyer will probably tell you that uttering a death threat in a public forum probably isn't a good idea . if i was moderating this forum this thread would be deleted just for that comment , and you'd get an email with a serious warning . however i'm not the moderator , so have fun [}:)]

I heard a lawyer on the radio tell a guy to get a gun, go into court and shoot his ex wife, her lawyer and the judge in the case for being stupid. I FREAKED when I heard this on the radio!

[red p]

The UP has the right to do that. However I have the right not to pay it!
I do not model the UP. And I will not be adding any UP equipment to my layout!
If the UP wants royalties, they wont be getting them from me!

Personally I think it is all about greed. The UP is looking at us as a cash cow. Its true that it may only be a couple of bucks now, but it will more than likly go up.

[simon1966]

Just out of curiosity, who does anyone think has more right to profit from the use of the UP name, Athearn, MTH, BLI et al or UP itself? The vast majority of companies, especially publicly traded companies are in business to make a profit, this is the USA remember? Are the MRR companies being greedy because they make a profit selling UP brand models?

[davekelly]

QUOTE: Originally posted by simon1966

Just out of curiosity, who does anyone think has more right to profit from the use of the UP name, Athearn, MTH, BLI et al or UP itself? The vast majority of companies, especially publicly traded companies are in business to make a profit, this is the USA remember? Are the MRR companies being greedy because they make a profit selling UP brand models?

Are we greedy because we want cheaper prices? If the price of everything went down 10 percent would we ask for 10 percent less salary? Hmmmmmmm.

[icmr]

Why are there 20 votes for stUPid?



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[AntonioFP45]

Question:

What would a lawsuit against UP be based on? What is the legal basis for the lititgation.

For a group to be taken seriously, first the homework must be done........and in a case like this it's lengthy and expensive. A good lawyer would have to find one or more legal precendents already established in the past to have a mouse whisker of a chance to even bring this to court.

Don't forget that before 1950, many companies didn't protect their trademarks or logos, yet today just about all of them do. So the argument of past practice may not be solid enough.

Guys, don't forget that nearly all of the scale model car kits today are officially licensed. We saw last year how GM is even more vigorous than Union Pacific with their trademarks. The only way some companies "get around" this is by producing "similar but not exact" models (like certain hot wheels and matchbox cars in the past).

So asking the question above "Who side are you on?" is not realistic.

It seems that we're all in agreement that we don't like UP's policy, but legally they're on solid ground and have today's laws regarding trademark to back them up. Even the owner of my LHS, as much as he dislikes UP, understands that there's not much that's going to change.

In reading the actual facts of UP's requirements, while more than CSX, UP's licensing won't railse model locomotive prices by $10 at all, but on average $2.00 to $5.00 or the cost of a pack of Kadee couplers! Freight cars then would be even less. So, on my tight budget, that's sure's not going to hurt me much if I ever wi***o purchase an HO UP diesel.

Model manufacturers or LHS's on the other hand can pad that price up more and easily blame it on UP. I'm not sticking up for Uncle Pete, but stating that we need to read the facts carefully.

BTW: It's great to read that BNSF has excellent PR still. Hopefully in a few years, Union Pacific's current leadership team members will "move on" to other careers or retirement and the next team will be more like BNSF. Ironically what may happen is that BNSF's future managment team may be as tough as the current UP group.

[waltersrails]

UP needs to get over themselfs.

[waltersrails]

i agree icmr

[icmr]

I do not plan on ever buying a stUPid UP diesel so I know it wont hurt me. I despise UP. Lets all say it together, UP is a Class Crap railroad.



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[icmr]

Thx waltersrails.



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[waltersrails]

no dewt.

[slotracer]

How many times has this been re-hashed. I agree they have the right but RR's have never done this in the paast, some things are just plain wrong and what UP is doing is wrong especially concerning fallen flags they gobbled up.
Threre are 2 easy solututions to this, either one is a vote to tell the Ussually parked to go and pound sand where the sun doesn't shine.
The first one is to not model UP, ignore them, they don't exist.
The second one is to buy older equipment off ebay and shows, get undecorated and paint the stuff yourself, get your decals and scan them and run your own copies and deprive UP that way if you can't resist the devil of all railroads.
I have news for you, this matter is only an indicator of how UP treats their employees, their vendors, and thier customers. If it gives anyone any satisfaction we just finished switching 350 carloads a year to truck from Uncle Pete in December and I am in the process right now of taking 200 carloads of other business from tehm due to their rate practices, poor service and how they handle customers at almost every level.

[Anonymous]

With MTH being the premier model railroading company, UP doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell beating them. Mr. Wolf has a team of very skilled and first class lawyers working for him. No sweat.

[AntonioFP45]

O.K, amigos...

I do respect your opinons. But I see I'm making no headway. Hopefully those of you in high school or college take an economics course so you can see how our complex system truly functions.

I'm not a UP fan, but I suggested that you look at the situation realistically.

Oh, by the way............in case you didn't know.......UP has a MAJOR impact on our economy...estimated in the billions of dollars. There's a chance that the building materials of your house or apartment, your television or stereo, or the nice looking clothes that you're wearing......may have traveled over UP rails before making it to the store or warehouse your items came from.

So again, amigos, if you really wi***o be taken seriously........read and do your research first. Otherwise, as my old boss at the transit company used to say to me, "Tony, think before you shoot your mouth off or people in positions of authority will just think of you as a WHINY LITTLE WUSS!"

Made me mad enough to chew nails...but as I matured I saw that he was so accurate!!

MTH Rules. Let's hope you're right, but again based on the info already available from UP's licensing program....the odds are not good as AThearn found out.

[vsmith]

repeated from Trains.com forum....

This is why my model RR is freelanced.
No license fees to worry about.

Unfortunatly even though Uncle Pete has been quite the A-hole about all this, they are legally entitled to this licensing fee of thier logo and paint scheme whether we like it or not. The same thing has been happening to model airplanes, where aircraft companies are now demanding a pretty penny for the privilage to build a model of a fighter jet. It has nothing to do with the fact that they already made millions from the government contract. Its all about the principle of the matter and about sqweezing all the blood they can out of the turnip, in other words, simple greed.

So now you choice is simple, pay extra, or dont buy it. MTH is going to lose, and UP will end up looking like a lumbering behemoth stomping on anything that offends its eye, but they wont care, why should they?Arent they are in business to make money, not friends, not fans. With continued lawsuits againts model makers and calender printers, ever wonder why less and less people like UP?

[davekelly]

Antonio,

Come on. Be real. Knowing the facts and doing one's homework for saying anything takes all the fun away.

Let's start some less hostile threads. How about "which DCC system is best?" or "what is art?" or "which religeon produces the best model railroaders?" You know, something non controversal.

[jondrd]

No argument, UP (whether stUPid or not) has the right to protect its logo and trademarks. The issue I believe is how you go about doing it. UP indicates pennies/model, how does this translate into speculated cost of $5-$10/model? This MSRP speculation may be unfounded; only watching manufacturers offerings will determine the impact.

[soapbox] My opinion, UP should have had public relations unit sit in on management's discussions about UP attorneys proposal. Outcome might have resulted in a less ogre like perception of UP by the modeling community.

lotus098's point about unauthorized useage of NASCAR logo/trademarks is well made. [tup] I believe NASCAR's reaction would have been nuclear in comparison to what UP has done.

Jon

[davekelly]

Do we know it was the attorneys' proposal? Or was it management? The finance guys? Heck it might even had been the public relations guys ("hey I was reading this model railroading forum and this guy bought a UP painted Bachmann diesel and everyone said it was junk - we gotta stop people from calling us "junk"").

[germanium]

How much antagonism do the antics of certain PR departments create against the company that employs them ?? A relaxed attitude of "please acknowledge in your products that this logo is copyright of the ABC corporation" might well in the long run generate more goodwill (and probably business) than a corporate gorilla firing off letters demanding payment for use of such logo.
(I refer of course to the disposition of said individuals - gorillas are too intelligent to work in PR departments).

[Anonymous]

i think some of you guys might have your pannies in a twist here! nobody needs to be shot, that's ridiculous to even mention.

if an occasional 5 bucks is breaking you hobby budget, it sounds like you might be in the wrong hobby!

[bcammack]

QUOTE: Originally posted by mthrules

With MTH being the premier model railroading company, UP doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell beating them. Mr. Wolf has a team of very skilled and first class lawyers working for him. No sweat.

What color is the sky where you live? I can't see it from where I live.

Unless you are engaging in hyperbole, in which case I must salute your efforts.

[AntonioFP45]

QUOTE: Originally posted by davekelly

Antonio,

Come on. Be real. Knowing the facts and doing one's homework for saying anything takes all the fun away.

Let's start some less hostile threads. How about "which DCC system is best?" or "what is art?" or "which religeon produces the best model railroaders?" You know, something non controversal.

Dave, LOL, I hear ya![:P][:P][X-)][(-D][(-D]