UP vs Model Railroaders This Madness has to end. (Lawyers I want options)

[Anonymous]

I just read the latest news blab about the UP vs MTH case.

http://www.trains.com/Content/Dynamic/Articles/000/000/006/398dlbpc.asp

While I am not fond of MTH products or their lawsuit (or is it lawsuits?) over DCC. The antics of Union Pacific can no longer be tolarated.

I want to know of all of us start a lawsuit, can we get class action status and how many of it it will take and on what grounds can we sue to win. And is there a lawyer or group of laywers who are also model railroaders crazy eneugh to take this on.

Something Needs to be done before I start considering assassanation as a viable option. (Yes I am that angry over this. )

As is obvious, I am on the side of MTH, Who's side are you on?

[Anonymous]

stUPid is the only one who would sue a model railroad manufaturer- at the bottom of every page on Atlas's website it says †Union Pacific Licensed Product -why the hell is stUPid so protective- i've never seen "BNSF licensed prouduct"

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dingoix

stUPid is the only one who would sue a model railroad manufaturer- at the bottom of every page on Atlas's website it says †Union Pacific Licensed Product -why the hell is stUPid so protective- i've never seen "BNSF licensed prouduct"

The UP does that (in part) to make sure that their name isnt put on a peice of crap model... which I can see...I dont like that they try to make so much money off of it though...[:(!] so yes Dingiox, I agree, this is stUPid indeed...

[trainfreek92]

its all about the $$$$$ money money money!!! as if locos were not high priced already and it drives up the cost of a UP loco $-5-10 while not a Up modler i feel bad to those that are[:(!]

[Anonymous]

Why doesn't UP have a right to their name? I can't just go off and come out with Tiger Woods chocolate frosted Sugar Bombs, not without getting the rights to use Tiger Woods name. No one would believe that I was advertising for him, and no one would blame him for suing me.

Actually BNSF does require licensing permission and will sue you if you don't get it; the only difference is UP charges a minimal sum.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Actually BNSF does require licensing permission

i fiqured that -but stUPid goes overboard with it- list price for the new Athearn Sd40-2 is $10 higher for the stUP one compared to the BNSF one.

[TrainFreak409]

I'm siding with MTH. Railroad companies didn't do this in the past. Why start now, and especially make a BIG stink about it?

[Anonymous]

well when your stUPid that's what you do

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by TrainFreak409

I'm siding with MTH. Railroad companies didn't do this in the past. Why start now, and especially make a BIG stink about it?

Scott, thats very true...you would think that the railroads would like to have models produced...models=free advertising!!! [8D] BTW, stop by the teen forum, we miss ya man!!!

[Anonymous]

That is not UP's fault if you read the licensing agreement. http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/licensing/up_licensee_model.pdf
Union Pacific only charges 3% or .5% if the company sells 20% or more UP products. So let's figure that you loco cost an outrageous $250, UP probably makes about $3.75. That is a pittance of what any other companies are charging. Just try and "advertise" with a Nascar boxcar. Now where does the money go? Well look at this. http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/modelrail.shtml
The opportunity to benefit from Union Pacific's increased investments in public awareness advertising and programs.

[jnichols]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue
While I am not fond of MTH products or their lawsuit (or is it lawsuits?) over DCC. The antics of Union Pacific can no longer be tolarated.

These posts are never going to end are they? When has MTH ever sued a DCC company? The suit with QSI has nothing to do with DCC, it's over the PS2 system in the MTH O scale locomotives. Why do you guys keep repeating this garbage?

QUOTE:
I want to know of all of us start a lawsuit, can we get class action status and how many of it it will take and on what grounds can we sue to win. And is there a lawyer or group of laywers who are also model railroaders crazy eneugh to take this on.

Something Needs to be done before I start considering assassanation as a viable option. (Yes I am that angry over this. )

What a waste of time and energy. There is no reason UP can't defend it's trademarks anyway it chooses. After all, they paid for that right! The problem is hold outs like MTH are trying to protect the modelers from themselves. Well I'm a modeler, and my vote is stop trying to protect me! If I choose to purchase UP products and they are 5% more, so beit... [;)] A lawsuit like this will cost all the modelers money in the long run, not just the ones who prefer UP.

QUOTE:
As is obvious, I am on the side of MTH, Who's side are you on?

You know, I really don't think this is true at all. If you were on MTH's side, you would quit posting untrue comments about them. It's posts like this that stir everyone up, and as very few people take the time to go and read the facts, these insane rumors somehow turn into the truth. You may disagree with me all you like, but MTH hasn't even brought an HO scale product to market yet, and look at the hatred by most on this and other forums.

Sometimes I don't know why I waste my time.... Good luck with your war rally... [xx(]

Jeff

[Anonymous]

I'm with Ultimate Power on this one. MTH has given enough crap to DCC and QSI and modelers in general. UP is protecting their logos and nothing more. Atleast they're not trying to change the model railroad industry. And I don't consider adding $5-10 a big change. Besides, it's only for UP modelers and those who model their fallen flags. You don't like it, TOUGH. I hope MTH gets hit big time with this one.

[Anonymous]

If im not correct. I think that KATO charges an extra $5.00 to your Locomotive.
$5.00 extra on "all" UP Models if im correct. Allan.

[TomDiehl]

Unfortunately, this is not a clear cut case. If you go back in history before WWII, railroads would pay model train manufacturers to put their logos on the locos and cars. I guess they considered it advertising. Not sure when that practice ended.

So on one side of the argument you have a precident set years ago.

On the other side, you have a company's right to protect their trademarks and logos.

[Anonymous]

Just a thought about the "But it is advertising" argument. How in the world does a model help any shipper decide what railroad to ship by? At least in the old days people traveled by train, but now there are no passenger trains to advertise for.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Lotus098

Just a thought about the "But it is advertising" argument. How in the world does a model help any shipper decide what railroad to ship by? At least in the old days people traveled by train, but now there are no passenger trains to advertise for.

Lotus, your argument makes the most sense, I think some of it is lawyers trying to stay busy?maybe, maybe not, do it matter, we won't change the price of UP models....... right? Danny

[Anonymous]

i'm relatively new to the MRR scene, so i'm too new to it to remeber a time before you had to pay extra for licensed products. i'm totally with UP on this, they have every right to do it. what if your favorite railroad had to start having their stuff licensed, yould you abandon them?

i have been in to fixing up old vw's for a long time. in the past 5 or so years volkswagen of america started cracking down on any shop, event or product that used the word beetle, bug, buggy, and so on. only genuine vw parts could have their logo on them, most of which had not been made by vw in years. almost everything is made be "repoppers". vw had cut it's ties to the aircooled lineage in the 80's, but that never stopped people from buying and fixing the old cars. shops are now faced with serious lawsuits to change their names, many have just closed up shop. events are having to get creative with the names and simple, common parts like hubcaps and may be hard
to get.

so from what i've seen an extra 5 bucks is a drop in the bucket. at least you can still get the thing!

[PennsyHoosier]

Once the UP lawyers are finished with this one, it will be a $20.00 charge for UP modelers. The price has nowhere to go but UP. [:D]

[icmr]

As I have said before, UP needs to make money like a real railroad does, work for it. Right now I classify UP not as a Class 1 RR but as a Class Crap RR. stUPid needs to be shot. Student of Big Sky Blue, what kinds of weapons do you have?



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[icmr]

Why are there 15 votes for stUPid?



Victor

Happy Railroading.[swg][swg]

[rayhippard]

I'm a member of the GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY HISTORICAL SOCIETY and BNSF has been very good to us. When they were still BN they donated to us our flagship SD-45 # 400 " HUSTLE MUSTLE " an historic second generation 1st SD-45 produced by EMD. It has been updated and is used on our excursion train rides at our convevtions. They have also been very cooperative in letting us use their tracks for these runs. They are also working with us and WISCONSIN SOUTHERN RR to move the loco to a paint
facility for a repaint job that we are paying for to keep it fresh for photo runs and preservation. This shows that not all businesses are greedy about a few dollars. Maybe some of you might think about changing to GN, BN or BNSF for your modeling and rail fanning to support a business that supports us. Just a thought, but a positive note amongst all the negetive thoughts.
Ray --- Great Northern fan.
P.S. -- It only costs $25.00 per year to join GNRHS. If interested, e-mail me and I'll e-mail you the information.

[ereimer]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Student of Big Sky Blue

Something Needs to be done before I start considering assassanation as a viable option. (Yes I am that angry over this. )

your lawyer will probably tell you that uttering a death threat in a public forum probably isn't a good idea . if i was moderating this forum this thread would be deleted just for that comment , and you'd get an email with a serious warning . however i'm not the moderator , so have fun [}:)]

[Southwest Chief]

You asked if there are any lawyer/model railroaders...well sure there are. My dad for one, and I'm soon to be one (last year of law school).

But I'm afraid UP has a right to their name (gets a bit fuzzier dealing with the fallen flags they have absorbed). If MTH has not been following the well established licensing agreements that other manufactures in the hobby have respected, they should be found liable.

My guess is that most railroads (and other businesses) will eventually adopt similar licensing schemes. And as much as this stinks, companies should be able to protect their images, and name. And licensing agreements are probably the simplest way to accompli***his.

As a side note, the heritage units we all clamor over are a way UP is using the law to its advantage. It's weak in my opinion but it is a way to preserve the rights over the fallen flags they have absorbed.

[davekelly]

A lawyer? Who's a lawyer? [:-^]

[edkowal]

In order to join a class action suit, you'd have to have incurred damages. You would have to have actually bought one of the items for which a manufacturer is charging more for UP than another railroad. And those damages would have to be shown in court to have been the fault of the defendant. You would also have to show that those "monetary damages" were not legally the right of the defendant.

The concept of a licensing fee for the use of a name or company image is well established. It's done all the time. You're just annoyed because UP is exercising a legal right which it hasn't done in the past. Your annoyance doesn't count for much in a class action suit. Especially if the company you're trying to sue is exercising a well established right. I would guess that no lawyer would bother with this.

(I'm not a lawyer, but this seems to me to be a reasonable analysis.)

-Ed

[UNIONPACIFIC4018]

Sounds like you the usual guys who do not model UP complaining again. oh no an extra 5.00 bucks......... on what a 5-7 hundred dollar steam engine please get over it.
Model railroading is exspensive all around.

[Pruitt]

Some of you people need to actually examine some facts before you start complaining about the big bad corporate meanie. And taking a minute to think it out wouldn't hurt, either.

Unfortunately, not aggressively pursuing trademark infringement in one area weakens your ability to effectively protect it in other areas. Thank Congress for this - they made the changes to the copyright laws that caused all this.

For those crying "greedy! greedy!" about UPs licensing of their property - what a load of rubbish. Just a few hours of their attorneys' time on this will eat up all their profit from it. It costs them more to license and police the use of their logos than they make on it, by far.

Student - as ereimer said, uttering death threats on a public forum is probably not a good idea. I think that falls under the heading of "terroristic threats," and you could face some pretty intense scrutiny for it these days, at the least. I suggest thinking before posting in the future.

Not trying to flame - just pointing out a few facts and making a few observations.

[Medina1128]

U.P., Schmu Pee. I settled the problem and rather than use Union Pacific models, I model the Missouri Pacific BEFORE the merger, or rather, acquisition by UP. NO ONE wins in the long run with these lawsuits, except the lawyers. I'm still waiting for the FIRST judge sitting on the bench to, look over the top of his/her glasses at the participants in some of these cases, and say, "GET OUT OF MY COURTROOM WITH THIS CRAP!!! DISMISSED, WITH PREJUDICE!!"

[soapbox]
My [2c]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UNIONPACIFIC4018

Sounds like you the usual guys who do not model UP complaining again. oh no an extra 5.00 bucks......... on what a 5-7 hundred dollar steam engine please get over it.
Model railroading is exspensive all around.

Well, I DO model the UP, and the UP fee is getting into my pocket in a big way, and I don't like it! UP doesn't need it, and I can't afford it.

What you people don't seem to come to grips with, is that this is hurting the entire model railroading hobby - every $5 I have to pay to UP for a "licensed" loco, is one less decal, one less bottle of paint, one less package of detail parts I can afford. The five bucks that UP is extorting from me could better be spent supporting another hobby-related business, most of which are small companies that really do need the money.

UP doesn't HAVE to charge a licensing fee, they're just doing because they found out they CAN. The amount of money UP will get from modelers in a year is a drop in the bucket compared to just an average day's shipping revenues. It probably doesn't even cover all the legal fees they're running up by falling all over themselves suing everybody in sight.

If you're someone living off a huge pension and modeling the 1930's northeast, well OK then, maybe you really don't care anything about this. But for the rest of us working stiffs...as someone who wants to model the contemporary northwestern US on a modest hobby budget with lots of other real-life obligations tugging on my wallet, this completely UNECESSARY extra fee they're taking from modelers, that in no way returns to benefit the hobby, and that is also not actually adding anything significant to UP's corporate bottom line, HURTS!

UP needs to start concentrating on getting thier 1:1 scale business straightened out, and quit screwing the model railroaders.

UNION PACIFIC -"Bilking America"

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by GrayLoess

UNION PACIFIC -"Bilking America"

You mean. "Milking America". Well milk you for every penney you got.