why does everyone hate 4X8 layouts?

[talon104]

Dont know about this thread but, if i can add my two cents since this is still going on . I think it is really the persons choice on what they want out of there layout , the area they have to work with ( or in) skills etc.
Take me for instance i'm a rookie at this i guess and so i started out with a 4x8 as a starter layout. hopefully this will give me the opportunity to learn things that i need to learn and experiment with different ideas that all these great guys have to offer.if it doestn look that great in my opinion the oh well i can trash it and restart. Also, it way benificial for the space i have right now since i'm doing it on one side of my garage with is 2 car garage at that.
Also, the way i feel by some of the info i have read about from some guys is unless it really becomes a flop [:(] i can add on to it in a "L" shape or something . which i can kick myself in the Ar$$ cause i didnt leave myself the option with out pulling up some track on a turn and putting in a switch or something but, oh well i can deal with it for now.
So, in all the 4x8 i think has benifits to some and not to others .some guys are lucky and have whole rooms and such to build it ,and others have to figure moer out in a 4x8
That is just my [2c]
chris

[Anonymous]

How about a layout that is constructed and stored in one area and used and displayed on a temporary basis in another area? Or when you don't have a dedicated area to use for a layout?

A 4x8 can be carried relatively easily from one area to another. It screams out portability. You can bring it to your audience. With a wall layout you have to bring your audience to the layout.

You can work on it in the garage, bring it into the house when the kids, friends, etc. come over and then back out when they leave.

It's ideal for a Christmas tree layout where you don't want to spend a lot of time constructing it in place. Bring it in and put it down, set up the tree on it and you're good to go.

Bill

[selector]

Bottom line for me is that it is too constraining. With modifications, it can be less so. Most modelers graduate to something different...not necessarily bigger, just different. When you ask them if they would return to a 4X8, they empathically say no.

That said, I do understand the allure of the 4X8. It is sometimes the only way a person can introduce themselves to the hobby. It is, indeed, a good learning tool. If it serves that purpose, most learn that they need something else if they want the most out of the hobby.

-Crandell

[Don Gibson]

QUOTE: A 4x8 can be carried relatively easily from one area to another. It screams out portability. You can bring it to your audience. With a wall layout you have to bring your audience to the layout. -Tandem42

Sorry Bill, but a 4X8 is ANYTHING but small.

It won't fit into a car or around corners. D**n difficult to reach across, and takes up an entire room. Moving Van's have trouble with them since they stack everything. Since usage requires standing on the outside, like a dinning table, it requires a lot more room than just the table size. Modeler's that want portability build 2x4's.

It is a BEGINNER'S layout, requiring minimum time and Carpentry, which is it's main attraction, but for one to say it take's up "minimal space" amount's to a cover up.

It's the 'CHIA PET' of layout's. So what's wrong with that?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson


It's the 'CHIA PET' of layout's.

I hope I can quote that.

ROFLMAO!

[ocalicreek]

QUOTE: I'm not sure what your argument against the Yugo analogy is. However, the only difference is skills between the the 4 x 8 and the around the room is the ability to cut a piece of plywood and the lumber yard will do that for 25 cents a cut. I guess another skill would be getting the thing level, but now they make those cool lasers.

Yes, those lasers are cool indeed. Was looking at one in Sears the other day, and they're not all that expensive either.

Other considerations related to skill:

4x8 - no backdrop (unless down the center, along one or more sides, but then attached to the layout itself)

around the walls - would everyone agree that it works to create a better looking scene with a well done backdrop? Sure, this can be attached to modules around the room, but now we're looking at many more feet of whatever material used (masonite, styrene, vinyl, etc.) and a framework of sorts to attach it to...more serious carpentry.

4x8 - properly framed, only 4 legs needed, using 1x4 and 1x3s in an L shape.

around the walls - well, you could always mount it on a shelving system, but then that means mounting it to the walls (and eventually filling holes when moving) and if you're able to attach shelving brackets to the walls then the backdrop might as well go there too.) If you go the modular route, how many legs do you need? What sort of bracing do they require?

NOW there is an alternative for support for BOTH 4x8 and round the walls - freestanding shelving (like gorilla rack or other hammer together metal shelving with wood shelves). But ONE 7 foot hight shelving unit breaks down into three foot high and four foot high units, or two three foot units using the 4 foot lenght risers on each unit. These are 4' long by 18" deep. Using this or similar product:

4x8 - only one shelving unit required as "legs", broken down into two 3' high units, one under each end, and I'd inset these from the short ends by a foot so stubbed toes are kept at a minimum, perhaps.

around the walls - at LEAST one required. Let's be generous and say one 4' long by 18" deep and 3' high unit per wall, assuming the shelf layout above has adequate lengthwise bracing, you'd need two units for the room. Better to have at least three spaced out to provide good support. But then you also gain much more storage for all those unbuilt kits most of us seem to collect.

[Granted, a layout at 3 feet may not be ideal for someadults, but its perfect for alot of kids and many modular setups agree on a standard of 40" rail height above the floor, about where you'd end up with a 36" high shelving unit, 1x3 bracing under a 3/4" ply base, a strip of cork roadbed and track.]

4x8 - Day One - frame the plywood, set up shelving or sawhorses or legs, set the base on the supports, buy track componants listed in the plan book, lay track, wire it, run trains.

around the walls - Day One - prep room, install backdrop, let paint dry
Day Two - build modules or add framing to the strips the lumber yard cut for you, add legs (or use shelving), build a gate or at least a duckunder,
Day Three - then, if you haven't already while the paint was drying, determine where the track is going to go, because you'll need alot more than what the train set came with and it's up to you to determine what you'll need and where it goes. Lay track, wire it, run trains.

So I think there's alot more effort required to build an around the walls layout than to set up a 4x8.

OH, and then there's LIGHTING! (assuming the room lighting isn't adequate)

4x8 - set up a shop light (or two) with daylight flourescents and hang it from a PVC or wood frame attached to the short ends of the layout, or if possible, hang it from two eye hooks screwed into a beam in the ceiling. Most of these kits come with chain.

around the walls - shop lights provide great light directly beneath them. So at least one for each wall is needed, maybe more to avoid dark patches. Or, a more expensive alternative would be track lighting.

I'm not angry or frustrated here, just want to share a few ideas and learn from what others think. I really am enjoying this discussion, and don't feel like any horses have had to suffer in the process. I'm glad we have a forum to discuss these things. You reap what you sow.

Remember, it's better to walk a mile in a man's shoes before criticizing him. That way, you're a mile away AND you've got his shoes.
Ocalicreek

[UPFEF]

Is a 4 x 8 "Z"scale layout to small and constrining?

[SpaceMouse]

OC,

While you have point, the biggest problem I have with the 4 x 8 is that the newbee jumps into them without planning. If they took the time to explore options, then they might go with a different route. Without logging onto a site like this, they are apt to buy a beginner's book which almost without exception steer them to a 4 x 8.

My contention is that if they look at small layout as a year or more project. (My 4 x 8 is about half-way done and a year old.) Then a day or two in the benchwork phase is negligible. If they tale the time to create a plan that takes into account their givens and druthers, (which assumes they take the time to figure their givens and druthers out) they will have a much higher level of satisfaction than if they choose plan 1 in the Atlas book and get up and running in one day. The planner will undoubtedly save hundreds if not thousands of dollars over the the person who built the get-it-up-and running-disposable layout.

And the planner might well choose to build a 4 x 8.

BTW. I just got the material for my backdrop on my 4 x 8. It will be on 3 sides and hinged to allow access to the tunnels.

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UPFEF

Is a 4 x 8 "Z"scale layout to small and constrining?

IT still takes up 8 x 10 feet of space and is harder to work than an 8 x 10 U shaped layout that can be controlled from the center.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,Again you are ASSUMING only newbies use 4x8 layouts..I know several veteran modelers that has built super nice 4x8s..
Would you rather have a newbie to jump into building a layout that might be way over his head and hobby budget? That leads to newbies throwing their hands up in disgust and finding a different hobby...[:(]

Sorry Chip,but,you need to rethink your bias against 4x8s.

[SpaceMouse]

Brakie,

I have said over and over in this thread that if you are informed and you have a specific reason for building a 4 x8 layout, then you should do so. Harold's 1870's 00 is a case in point--although he is expanding it. Where you got that I thought only newbees build 4 x 8's I don't know. I will add however, if a veteran chooses to build a 4 x8, you can be sure he's explored the alternatives.

[selector]

QUOTE: Originally posted by UPFEF

Is a 4 x 8 "Z"scale layout to small and constrining?

Ohhh, yeah!

Why? Because if it is hard to fiddle with HO sized things reaching across a 4X8, I'd sure hate to be fiddling with Z-scale things in the same circumstances. At 53, I don't need the hassle.

[Don Gibson]

Ocalicreek:

A 10X12 room (such as a bedroom) can be illuminated by a single 100 watt bulb (and most are). IDEAL lighting is an overhead Valance illuminating the SCENE. Anything in-between is the builder's choice.

A 4X8 layout with train's running around every 12 second's is simply SIMPLER to build - it's main attraction - Plywood board's already come in that size. Cutting a Ply sheet into 4 1X8 board's add's $1 to the cost, takes up the same SPACE, and extend's the runing time by 4x - to 48 second's. 4 smaller support's instead of 1 large one, and as for entry - hinged gates were invented thousand's of year's ago. They also can swing UP as well as back & forth.

A layout along a wall using a corner is also a more efficient use of space - however it is supported.

The 4X8 is a holdover from the 'TOY TRAIN' era of Lionel with Table Tennis sized curves and plug-together track, for boy's and father's to enjoy together. Weve gone from 3 rail to 2 rail, and AC to DC - and now DCC, but in an era of realistic $250 engines with sound and $50 passenger cars, one can still elect to build a layout designed 60 year's ago. Problem is getting TODAY'S modern equipment to run on it.

[jeffers_mz]

Man....

....it happens everytime.

You try to keep it light, stick to the positive, live and let live, and along comes a generalizer. You let them slide at first, maintaining civility, and they just get bolder, taking bigger and bigger bites out of you till they finally cross the line and start DISSIN A MAN'S CARPENTRY SKILZ.

Jeeze, why don't you just go ahead and shoot his dog?

Oh, no, we're NOT having any of that.

Not after 20 years running framing crews, a tap to set 'em, one whack to sink 'em, eights, sixteens, makes no difference. Not after gymnasiums, and churches and multi-million dollar houses for the likes of Adolph Coors and Lamar Hunt. Not after pushing convicts and drug dealers year round, 115 in the summer, minus 22 in the winter, ice so hard on the second floor ceiling joists that a 32 ounce framing hammer barely stars it, a mixed pitch 10/12-12/12 cut up puzzle of a hip roof needing set whether the wind takes your cigarette out of clenched teeth or not.

Not after an additional seven years of interior trim. Okay, I've finished out a few that ran under a mill but I don't brag about those. The biggest to date was 14,000 square feet of living space and 21k under roof. I suppose if someone wants to keep spraying when they have yet to wear out their first table saw, I'll debate "carpentry skills" them till cows turn blue, but until they so indicate, I'm willing to be generous and let it slide.

It's Christmas, you know?

Operations?

Maybe yes, maybe no. My four by eight allows only seven spurs, two of which are hidden and represent staging and an imaginary feeder city to my branchline. But two amounts to a lot when you run a freight down to Durango and it takes several hours to get unloaded, re-loaded and return.

Meantime the new train's up from Durango, needs broken down, reformed and most of it run on up to the mines. You know how those miner's are, always short on groceries and coal, I swear they eat both, and long on ore. Not just any ore, mind you, the RICHEST ore ever, and you'd think it was already burning a hole in their pockets the way they keep hollering over the telygraf. "Trains, we need trains." Got empties need deadheaded back down too ,both legs, the next load ain't going to WALK up there.

Burning daylight here, not moving any freight jacking jaws, dollar waiting on a dime, let's GO, people, whaddya waitin' on, CHRISTMAS?".

Yep, I reckon it'll keep my 11 year old busy for a couple years at least, and my six year old daughter ought to get close to a decade out of it if I can keep her mind off clothes and boys.

Now for my favorite...."round the walls takes WAY less space than a four by eight".

You know....


...talk's cheap.

A case of choice against my good friend James Beam says a four by eight is the largest option available, anyone feeling bold enough to back up some of that talk?

Here's the room:



Please note, oh ye of minimal faith, the sub nominal grade terrain visible in the image above. You're looking at twelve bucks fifty worth of lumber there, three studs, an eight foot two by two, and the rest scraps. The foam was scrap too.

Here's another view, from the far left corner of the pic above:



Yup, I had to really suck it in to squeeze back in there with a tripod to get that second pic.

Everything there either stays or gets parked in the snow, which, last time I looked outside, was about three feet deep.

(Heh, you didn't think it was going to be THAT easy, now didja?)

In a room not shown, you have an 11 year old boy sharing a pair of bunk beds with his six year old sister. Need I remind you of some pretty basic chemistry? Within a year, if luck holds, less if not, this same room ALSO has to absorb a kid, some clothes, and some toys.

Nope, still not done.

Come Sunday morning, ohhhh....'bout six thirty aye em, the room also has to find a spot for these guys too:



No cheatin', maintain access to all equipment and areas as shown or you lose.

That's me, I'm all in, knock yourselves out. The last raise is in, bets are called, it's time to show 'em if you got 'em, and fold if you don't, wafflers will be prosecuted. If you think you can find a way to squeeze more railroad into that room, in HO, without screwing up an already delicate status quo, your next buzz is on me. Any takers?

(Rubbing my hands, come to papa, Jimmy, my boy,.....daddy's gettin.....THIRS-teeee.)


;-)

[SpaceMouse]

Jeff, my man you need just shy of a case to work that layout.

But, you know, with a helix you could triple that layout. [:D]

14K beats me. I was a general for 15 years myownself.

PS: Take out those shelves, build a round the room at 60" extend the shelves underneath out perpendicular to the walls to 30"--you have all the shelf space plus room for the desk and the drum set under the layout.

I like micro brews.

[BRAKIE]

Don,A 1 foot wide board takes a lot of planing to use with todays industrial buildings..I truly doubt if there is that many modelers today that could build a round the walls layout with foot wide boards..I know old geezers like us could.
One of my favorite industrial switching layout plans was built on a 1 foot by 6 foot board....The question is how many modelers would want to continually switch cars?

http://www.carendt.us/articles/highland/index.html
=============================================================
Chip,Perhaps by you saying "Newbee 4 x 8 Disease"..Now make no mistake a round the wall layout is better but,some times a 4x8 must get the job done for several reasons to include cash flow and what the boss woman says.We haven't gone that route yet..LOL!

[SpaceMouse]

Oh yeah, and you have room in the center.

[BRAKIE]

Chip,Take a closer look at those walls..That room doesn't favor a round the walls layout..See what I am seeing?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Chip,Take a closer look at those walls..That room doesn't favor a round the walls layout..See what I am seeing?

I thought you didn't mind duck-unders. This man could flip those doors in under an hour.

[jeffers_mz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

Jeff, my man you need just shy of a case to work that layout.

But, you know, with a helix you could triple that layout. [:D]

14K beats me. I was a general for 15 years myownself.

PS: Take out those shelves, build a round the room at 60" extend the shelves underneath out perpendicular to the walls to 30"--you have all the shelf space plus room for the desk and the drum set under the layout.

I like micro brews.

I actually thought about coming around underneath from the far end to a lower staging area, but there's an easier way.

You were ineligible from square one. You've maintained a balanced rational attitude all through this thing and besides, I don't mess with guys who carry 112 pounds with popsicle sticks. Yep, nice guys finish last, but being a general, you already know that.

Ever tried Fat Tire Dark?

Being as I prefer a stool to the floor when tearing up the skins, that whole deal is coming up OUT of there, right after Christmas. See, my breakfast room is full of tools and workbench. Most of the dust never makes it to the attached kitchen because I use a dust collection system and besides, most folks pay EXTRA to get more fiber into their diet.

The dining room walls are spoke for too, lots and lots of books. However....by spinning my desk 90 degrees, I can park the layout dead against the bookshelves when not running trains, I've read all those books at least twice anyway. On ops days, or when I need to look something up, she'll roll (yes I need folding legs with castors) out about 18 inches while still maintaining three feet of clearance for the back door outside. I eat watching TV, and have no desire to feed or entertain strays, so who needs a dining room OR a breakfast room?

I'll have enough room to roll the chair out from my desk plus two feet between desk and chair, and if running trains, can use some of that for access to the wall end of the table in the rare event that becomes necessary. The Horseshoe Curve goes to the wall and with the other three sides easily accessible, I don't see the need , but it's there should it be necessary.

One o them generalizers was bemoaning how you can't have backdrops on a four by eight, but anyone who understands a cantilever knows that's not true. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I can have backdrops AND under mountain access in all areas WITHOUT having to unsheath the trusty cordless drill every time too. A big hole for each screwhead, a littler hole/slot above and let gravity do the rest.

Come fall, if all goes according to plan, the studio, the camping gear, and the layout all move to the pole barn, which currently is represented by four snowy tomato stakes out back. 1500 square feet of floor space and another 750 square feet of storage footprint amongst the trusses over the finished half. Just in flood space, the barn's about 15 square feet bigger than the house. At that point, the virtual Durango staging yard becomes the de facto Durango, and if the spirit moves, and the flesh is still willing, why not throw in the SN, the SG and N, and heck, even the RGS too? Notice how the outer mainline in front of Silverton looks...sorta bare, hmmMMM?

Fallback plan has the layout in the dining room, for another year, the studio as is (and if I find any peanut butter in my PC's drive slots, well, Oscar Mayer's paying 35 cents a pound, bones, shoes, and all) and I'll pack up every pack to keep stuff localized and part the climbing gear out in nooks and crannies around the house.

If you're wondering, yes....I am a bit sorry my kid got HO for his birthday, and that it matched the HO I've been saving since about 1977. N gauge is looking VERY attractive these days.

:-)

[jeffers_mz]

Nah, probably not an hour. I shoot for eight a day, singles or doubles, and my record was nine, pretty, with the crack the same size all around and they stay where you let go of them instead of swinging closed. The key is the order of fixing the jamb in place. One pin above the top hinge near but not in the shim to allow for later tweaking, (making sure to shim the middle hinge plumb first, or you bow the case and have to chase that curve out with shims all the way down come final attachment) one pin at the bottom, tweak for dead plumb, the hinge pins, not the door, not the casing, hungover bums assemble those, but gravity acts on the hinges, shim the middle hinge to match the reveal, close the door to set the reveal across the top, pin that, shim to the reveal all down the striker side, hard nail all around, and on to the next. Woe be unto the guy who doesn't check the floor for level first though.

The problem with doors is that it takes the same amount of time to roll out and roll up the tools for one door as it does for ten, so it'd probbly be two hours, including coffee break and all. Might have to consult some other guys, too, this is a union job, right?

[SpaceMouse]

I said under an hour--wasn't counting tools. Besides you probably have everything you need right in the room. Don't I see a Sawall on that top shelf?

[SpaceMouse]

QUOTE: One o them generalizers was bemoaning how you can't have backdrops on a four by eight, but anyone who understands a cantilever knows that's not true. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure I can have backdrops AND under mountain access in all areas WITHOUT having to unsheath the trusty cordless drill every time too. A big hole for each screwhead, a littler hole/slot above and let gravity do the rest.

I'm using a piano hinge.

[Anonymous]

If it were me, in that space, I would have done some reorganizing, and run a narrow shelf around the walls, with a nice truss bridge running aross the window. But then, I don't require continueous running.

[jeffers_mz]

The tools migrate all the time. That's another reason it'll be better in the dining room. Closer to the woodworking shop in the kitchen, less turn around time.

I like the piano hinge idea. Velcro up top? Might have to borrow that one.

:-)

[jeffers_mz]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Greyryder

If it were me, in that space, I would have done some reorganizing, and run a narrow shelf around the walls, with a nice truss bridge running aross the window. But then, I don't require continueous running.

A big truss across the window would look really sharp. I've been looking for some way to fit the Firth of Forth bridge into a Colorado mining layout and coming up dry.

http://www.glasssteelandstone.com/UK/Scotland/EdinburghFirthofForth.html

Or else one of those huge slender arch under a single track deck. Was thinking about the Golden Gate bridge the other day too. In HO, to scale, it'd be around 45 feet long with the towers nine feet tall.

It's not over yet though, give me time. If I can't find a way to put more bridges into this layout, I'll either start another one or else build them for other people. Building bridges is probably my favorite modeling.

[BRAKIE]

QUOTE: Originally posted by SpaceMouse

I thought you didn't mind duck-unders. This man could flip those doors in under an hour.

Chip,You're right I don't mind duck unders IF they are truly needed and I am 57 years old....

Look again at that room..If you miss it this time I will tell you and I am not being a wise guy...I caught right off but,I been looking at layout spaces for years LOL!..[;)][:D]

[jeffers_mz]

Well, I've spent some time looking at those walls, and have yet to see a reason why I can't run a shelf layout due to the walls. The available space, ok, walls no.

The interior walls are two by four studs, 24 inches on center, and they'll carry about any train load I can think of. On the far side of the left wall in the first pic is an integrated additional wall made of two by twelve studs backed with three quarter inch plywood. This is tornado country, number one on earth for killer F-5's and after total failure at the foundation/framing interface, the second leading cause of storm deaths in modular homes is being crushed inside the steel bands surrounding the whole house every four feet longways.

This one is tied down in the usual manner, plus rebar from the footer into the (concrete filled) foundation block cores every four feet, corresponding with 10 inch J bolts which hold down a two by ten treated sill plate, which in turn is attached to the joists with half inch by 4 inch lag screws every four feet. I did all that myself, and built the internal shear wall later on to prolong resistance to crushing.

The exterior walls are two by six studs, set 16 inches center to center and will again carry whatever is required, within reasonable limits. The trim on the wall's interior face might get in the way of shelving, but you can cut it with a sharp knife.

So what are you seeing, Brakie, that would inhibit a round the room layout if the space wasn't already in service for storage and computer stuff?

[ocalicreek]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Don Gibson

Ocalicreek:

A 10X12 room (such as a bedroom) can be illuminated by a single 100 watt bulb (and most are). IDEAL lighting is an overhead Valance illuminating the SCENE. Anything in-between is the builder's choice.

True, but the valance, etc. becomes that much more work. Not that it's not worth it - I think it is, absolutely. Highlights the trains and scenes in a great way.

QUOTE:
A 4X8 layout with train's running around every 12 second's is simply SIMPLER to build - it's main attraction - Plywood board's already come in that size. Cutting a Ply sheet into 4 1X8 board's add's $1 to the cost, takes up the same SPACE, and extend's the runing time by 4x - to 48 second's. 4 smaller support's instead of 1 large one, and as for entry - hinged gates were invented thousand's of year's ago. They also can swing UP as well as back & forth.

For pursuing that option, these seem like great steps to take. Again, it's a few more steps that some are willing to take (probably to their detriment) I agree that a little more work up front can produce a better result in the long run.

QUOTE:
A layout along a wall using a corner is also a more efficient use of space - however it is supported.

Define "efficient". Not a challenge, just seeking clarification so we're on the same page.

QUOTE:
The 4X8 is a holdover from the 'TOY TRAIN' era of Lionel with Table Tennis sized curves and plug-together track, for boy's and father's to enjoy together. Weve gone from 3 rail to 2 rail, and AC to DC - and now DCC, but in an era of realistic $250 engines with sound and $50 passenger cars, one can still elect to build a layout designed 60 year's ago. Problem is getting TODAY'S modern equipment to run on it.

Totally agree here as well. Sure, somebody will write in saying how they get 6 axle diesels and double stacks around a 4x8, but from a standpoint of realism is a big compromise. Is it fun? Probably. But not my chosen version of fun.

As for being one of the aforementioned generalizers, well, let's just say I like to think of the big picture as well as the details. I'm not knocking anybody's carpentry skills. That's part of this hobby - learning more about other areas like wiring, electronics, painting, scuplting, history, geography, and yes, carpentry.

You've heard of 'analysis paralysis'? How about 'perfection petrification'. Another name for armchair modelers (or any of us in an armchair state of mind) that won't build something until they can build what they're dreaming of. I've been there. Anybody else?

Part of what brought me to this thread was a desire to learn more about the options, pros and cons of 4x8 vs. round the walls approaches. In my setting, building around the walls brings some severe compromises. I have been debating whether the benefits are worth those compromises. In a sense, I came looking to be convinced that around the walls is the way to go, but I'm still finding more benefits with fewer compromises for the 4x8 for my setting and my set of givens and druthers. Given a different space, I'd opt for a dogbone in a corner or some other wall based plan. But for me right now, 4x8 seems to be the way to go.

Ocalicreek

[SpaceMouse]

The second picture shows a nook that might be hard to deal with if you go strictly with the perimeter. I think that is what he is referring to.